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Snake Jankins	Posted - 2006.02.09 19:24:00 - [91] Edited by: Snake Jankins on 09/02/2006 19:26:44 Originally by: bumcheekcity I really hope nothing is ever done abotu the t2 situation - I love it. BTW,I have no T2 blueprints. I LOVE the fact that this game is virtually completely player driven. Yeah, so some people can rip you off, yeah, cartels are illegal, inside trading is illegal in the real world. THe realism and the dog-eat-doggedness of the market is great. If for some reason you dont want to pay t2 prices, use normal t1 stuff, or named stuff. YOu're not OBLIGED to fly a caracal, buy a raven. You're not OBLIGED to buy a Cap Recharger II, you can buy a really good named one if you like. At some point the system needs some corrections. The hac BPOs were seeded when EVE had a lot less players in total and especially less people with the skills to fly a hac. Like someone else already pointed out, t2 is not supposed to be ultra rare and for only a few people. I expect to able to fly hacs like I use t2 frigs and fit t2 guns/launchers and mods on some of my ships. I think a price of 70 mil for a hac is acceptable, but now we reach the 150-200 mil isk or 1 month waiting time and it becomes silly. But I still believe that the new r&d system also seeds new hac bpo or limited run bpcs. P.S.: Imho the purpose of tech-2 is 1st: to be used by advanced players and 2nd: to make some players rich ... not the other way around. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.'
Elknine	Posted - 2006.02.09 19:30:00 - [92] Don't mix things up please... We're not talking about X-Type reppers or officer loot here, but about T2 items. T2 is supposed to be the mainstay of the player driven economy - at least that's what CCP says - if they changed their mind I'd be glad to hear it! I personally have no problems with T2 being expensive, as long as it's available. -- Friends may come and go, but enemies accumulate.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.02.09 19:35:00 - [93] Originally by: Elknine I personally have no problems with T2 being expensive, as long as it's available. which it always is. for a PRICE sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy
Elknine	Posted - 2006.02.09 19:37:00 - [94] Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Elknine I personally have no problems with T2 being expensive, as long as it's available. which it always is. for a PRICE And 3 weeks waiting times :) -- Friends may come and go, but enemies accumulate.
Glassback	Posted - 2006.02.09 19:38:00 - [95] Just stop buying the god-damn things FFS! There is nothing you can do in a T2 ship that can't be some other way using T1. G. I've got an idea--an idea so smart that my head would explode if I even began to know what I'm talking about
Carter Burke	Posted - 2006.02.09 19:40:00 - [96] Originally by: Vishar Wrong... cause corp members in corps with the BPO get the ships at cost. This produces an imbalance. Real supply and demand would not have this obvious kink. And this is about limited supply created artificially by CCP and thus needs to be regulated better by CCP. As I said before, this is more about "anti-trust" issues than supply and demand. Ya see? Good.. try again. What are you talking about? I get a pretty massive employee discount where I work, and we still make a good margin selling to the outside world. CB
Vishar	Posted - 2006.02.09 19:44:00 - [97] Edited by: Vishar on 09/02/2006 19:48:00 Originally by: Miri Tirzan Originally by: Vishar This isn't about supply and demand, this is about monopolies and what he is requesting is more "anti-trust" behavoir by CCP... which I agree with. And I dont think you know what your talking about. One, there except for CAP IIs, I dont know of any "cartels" that set any prices, and I should know, I have 9 T2 BPOs, none bought, and no one sets my prices but me. My Corp done not set my prices, my Alliance does not set my prices, I set my price and I do it the old fashion way. I look at the current market prices and set my sells to match. I dont try to under sell anyone since I want to make as much profit as possible also. Originally by: Vishar If CCP's intent is to immulate RL, then puting out a limited/finite number of BPO's is not the way to do it... this only gives rise to monopolies. Laws in the United States limit patents and copywrite protections for a reason. They are, if you look at the RL the difficulty of entering any market, either as a producer or a seller, varies from the common items which almost any one can enter with little effort to the high items that are difficult to penatrate. CCP has duplicated this. Anyone can sell T1 and get into that market. The profits are low and the entry cost is low. If you want to enter the T2 markets, then you have expect a high cost. Some like me, did it by getting a bunch of skills that are pretty worthless once you get the item (no PvP or PvE use) via the lottery. That is why in two years I have 9 BPOs (yes, I sell HACs). The other way is to buy a T2 BPO, which is what I understand the Cap II cartel did. It was expensive for them to do this but they are making thier ISK back. So, if you want to get into that market, then you need to, like RL, put the effort in and have some luck. Quote: I dont know of any "cartels" that set any prices Guess since you don't know that makes it true. I played Eve in the beginning and I KNOW from experiences with my corp then that manufacturers do indeed talk amongst themselves. To think otherwise is nieve. Quote: I have 9 T2 BPOs, none bought Guess you avaoided the screw job everyone else if getting.. lucky you. Quote: My Corp done not set my prices, my Alliance does not set my prices, I set my price and I do it the old fashion way. I look at the current market prices and set my sells to match. I dont try to under sell anyone since I want to make as much profit as possible also. Prices determined by CCP and their lack of puting the BPO's out there in sufficient numbers ... not you. And I would hazzard to to guess that the insurance reimbursements you get for HAC's is a safe bet on how CCP thinks they should be priced. Also, what are your sell prices to corp members and or alliance members ..hmm? Oh, and the word is don't.. not "done". Quote: They are, if you look at the RL the difficulty of entering any market With out as many words... it is called Capital Cost Barrier. But, it is not really Capital Cost Barrier since you can not undergo some expensive retro engineering to get the blueprints (Ford can buy a Lexus and take it apart to see how it is designed.. they can even analyze the materials and metallurgy), you can't do this in EVE ... only place you get a BPO is from CCP(I am speaking about HAC's) Quote: So, if you want to get into that market, then you need to, like RL, put the effort in and have some luck. Skills are needed for building T2 items... that is the effort that should be invloved. And retro engineering skills would be reasonable to, if you could retro as you should be able to (which you can't). Luck? I guess since you have been lucky everyone else can eat sht hu? edited for spelling
Zeitor	Posted - 2006.02.09 19:46:00 - [98] the sad thing is, they have so much ISK from the sells. Cuz anything is worth what someone is willing to pay, that's the law of economics. So they can just buy up all new released BPO's. :( Or they sell their isk on the internet. I know, I know, lets buy their isk, that'll balance it out... FULL sarcasm intended.
Nev Clavain	Posted - 2006.02.09 19:46:00 - [99] Originally by: HippoKing uh, i think you need to think it out a bit more i'll give you clue: supply and demand Perhaps you need to think it out a bit more also. Where there is massive demand and super inflated prices in a real life setting - another manufacturer will sooner or later step in and undercut the existing prices. Cheap, illegal rip offs will start to creep into the market and piracy will start eating into the profits of the monopoly. Look at what happened to the music industry with the arrival of the internet. Prices have fallen through the floor to a level people find acceptable and now legitimate sales of cds and online music are on the increase massively. Also if there is a genuine monopoly in place governments will step in and and carve it up as best they can, at least in some instances. None of this can actually happen in EVE. If you own all the bpos for something you have the market sewn up tight - no comebacks. That is problematic - and it is not allowed to happen in real life for reasons that have been thought out over centuries by minds much greater than anyone playing EVE, or designing it for that matter. Anyway to be totaly honest the whole tech II market control doesnt actually bother me that much as at the moment there is plenty out there for me to enjoy. I am sure though that a day will come when it will begin to bother me, but hopefully there will be some kind of an effective solution by then. However it is a problem that needs dealing with for those of us EVE players who dont have billions and a production alliance stacked with all the best bpos....
Verone	Posted - 2006.02.09 19:51:00 - [100] Market Piracy 4tw Veto Member Movies Dont think you've escaped!!!!!!!!!! -Kaemonn
Angry Sheep	Posted - 2006.02.09 19:56:00 - [101] Yeh Verone, and you guys thought you were pirates... YYaaaaarrr Ka'ching YYaaaaaarr Ka'ching (closes till) It's a Dog eat Dog World out there and I'm wearing Milky Bone underwear
Monty Burns	Posted - 2006.02.09 20:04:00 - [102] Edited by: Monty Burns on 09/02/2006 20:04:46 Same arguments? You guys c.rack me up! I so rarely get to sign into the forums and to see that i haven't missed anything important makes me feel all warm inside Darwin 4tw
Torze	Posted - 2006.02.09 20:33:00 - [103] Originally by: Elknine Don't mix things up please... We're not talking about X-Type reppers or officer loot here, but about T2 items. T2 is supposed to be the mainstay of the player driven economy - at least that's what CCP says - if they changed their mind I'd be glad to hear it! I personally have no problems with T2 being expensive, as long as it's available. I do not believe CCP has changed their mind on T2. Someone posted that T2 is suppose to be the new mainstream items while, T1 gets religated to the cheap 'noob' stuff. That WILL happen, EVENTUALLY. CCP tends to take their time with things like this. Eventually, T3 will come out, and T2 bpo's will probably be put on the open market at that time. I'm curious though about how many people are upset at the high prices. Have some of you noticed how much skill training is involved in building a HaC? Those builders have put alot of time training industrial skills that could have been put into gun skills. Also, because it takes so many skillpoints to build some of the T2 items, simply releasing T2 bpo's MAY not really reduce the prices all that much. Oh, I'm sure on some of the items it would, especially the ones that certain entities have a monopoly on but, over all, probably not. Then, other people complain that it's the fault of the 'resellers' and that real life economics doesn't work like that. Well, um, let's see, Pepsi makes a bunch of Mountain Dew, they sell said, Mountain Dew for oh, let's say, $1.50 a 12 pack to a distributer. That distributer sells the same Mountain Dew to a retail store like say Wal-Mart for $2.25. Wal-Mart then turns around and sells the Mountain Dew to you for $2.99. That is real life ecomonics. As far as increasing supply. IMO, it would be better to just speed up the production of T2 items that to just keep creating more BPO's. Yes, I think they should still keep releasing BPO's to give people who use research agents a chance but, a HaC BPO should be able to produce more than 5 a week. Only takes what about 5 hours to build a battleship. This would allow a more real life economic model, where a producer could just build in a single station and sell to a corp that distributes them around the galaxy. The builder saves time by not having to move to sell the items and can do more fun things in Eve.
Isky Iskerson	Posted - 2006.02.09 21:13:00 - [104] sigh Ok, I can't be bothered to read all four pages of this as it can easly be sumed up in a single post. There are certain economic realities that cannot be overlooked. 1. Setting a minimum or maximum to price is, in the long run, counter-productive. It will create a supply gap and a "blackmarket" (making player-to-player trades to avoid market caps) will arrive. The prices will become MUCH higher then they are now. 2. Having all or the vast majority of BPOs in the hands of a few is a recipe for price gouging. Sure you can argue that these people will never price above what they can make the best profit at however if you look at it like this: 5 players will buy at 500 mill over cost vs 100 players will buy at 25 mill over cost, it is more time efficent to only build the 5. More time and materials to use in other ways. Thus, the ONLY real way to overcome price gouging is to flood the market with BPOs or at least, BPCs. If these people or companies were employing others or conducting research with thier profits, it would be in everyone's long term interest that things remain as they are. Since this is ALL about reslae not innovation, the profits made by monopolists do no service to the whole. I do not want to get into an argument about the responciblities of buissness in society. The fact is this is a small community with market forces having severe effect on what is (lest we forget) a game. A game that should be as fun for as many people as possible. And now you know, and konwing is half the battle! -Isky
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.02.09 22:25:00 - [105] Clearly it is broken, there needs to be alot more bpo's on the market to allow for competition. I am sorry I don't think the idea is for a few players to control the content usage of everyone else. it is broken and even more so this is what drives the ebay market. Don't be surprised if this person isnt specifically controlling this market to get obscene prices to turn and sell ISK on ebay. Not sure why people who craft in these games think it is thier right to make money from crafting.... I thought the point of putting crafting in was because some people liked to craft..... not cause they like to give the shaft to people who just want to play...
sidthesexist	Posted - 2006.02.09 23:22:00 - [106] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Clearly it is broken, there needs to be alot more bpo's on the market to allow for competition. I am sorry I don't think the idea is for a few players to control the content usage of everyone else. it is broken and even more so this is what drives the ebay market. Don't be surprised if this person isnt specifically controlling this market to get obscene prices to turn and sell ISK on ebay. Not sure why people who craft in these games think it is thier right to make money from crafting.... I thought the point of putting crafting in was because some people liked to craft..... not cause they like to give the shaft to people who just want to play... QFT ________ Shinra Originally by: Sidthesexist I love you Tomb Originally by: TomB Love you as well sexy.
Lady Ombre	Posted - 2006.02.10 00:06:00 - [107] What about reverse-engineering?
Corp Scammer	Posted - 2006.02.10 00:15:00 - [108] reverse engineering coming soon (TM)
implanted	Posted - 2006.02.10 00:16:00 - [109] yeah i agree. t2 bps need to be distributed better....but not too many ay.
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2006.02.10 00:31:00 - [110] Edited by: Deja Thoris on 10/02/2006 00:30:59 Opinions are like arse-holes, everyone has one. Most (in this thread) stink. BPO's were seeded with small playerbase. Playerbase has a) Grown b) Grown older This means more demand and an artificially limited (by CCP) supply. This isnt a "supply and demand" equation. Its a "demand and no supply cos CCP don't change stuff before glaciers melt" equation. So all the "its meant to be rare" and "free market ftw" comments can bite me. You are wrong. I am right. (Get used to it)
Khatred	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:10:00 - [111] yawn? _______________________________________________ Every time you whine a little HAC is destroyed. Please think of the little HACs
Decairn	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:13:00 - [112] Make BPOs limited run BPCs. Issue them frequently to quell demand and to create a new active market in BPCs. The R&D agent runners get to acquire t2 BPCs more often but with limited upside and the ISK profit is spread out over a greater player base. --Decairn
Karazaan	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:24:00 - [113] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 [...] Not sure why people who craft in these games think it is thier right to make money from crafting.... I thought the point of putting crafting in was because some people liked to craft..... not cause they like to give the shaft to people who just want to play... Well, building stuff is not just an hobby in Eve, it's a profession. A corp role and even a whole production chain now with POS. It's not like in other games, in Eve, the economy is driven by the players which are driven by wars. I would say that after 2 years of carebear shafting where all they could do is wet themselves about the nice named loots only dropped in the middle of 0.0 that they could only dream of. The shaft is going where it belong. PVP is not the only way to "own" now, so to speak. BTW: I would love a Nightmare...
Dakath	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:39:00 - [114] Put the T2 BPOs on the market. Now. I, for one, welcome our new Jovian Overlords!
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:08:00 - [115] Originally by: Elknine Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Elknine I personally have no problems with T2 being expensive, as long as it's available. which it always is. for a PRICE And 3 weeks waiting times :) Stop the whining, we have plenty of tech II ships on the regular market, they're not flying out of the hangars at record speed and my guess is it's because they're not Naga priced, you've been pampered by them watering down the market too much as is. What needs to be done on the other hand is making the daily running of a POS easier, then there will be more of them inside and out for people to war for, on or about. Remind me about The Maze. I'm Danton Marcellus and I approve of this message.
Bishop 5	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:12:00 - [116] reduce the copy time on the BPC to 1/3 of what it is now.. -------------
Mace Blackhammer	Posted - 2006.02.10 04:35:00 - [117] Alot of people seem to be forgetting that there is only one "zealot" for example and no other ships like it that have the same level of performance. But in the real world you could take you camaro and make it as fast as a lambo by modding it, I think it would be fair that a char with very high prodcution and research skills could take an omen and spend like 35-40mil and 3-5 days and modify it so that its tech 2 (it might be just like an omen or perhaps have less firepower and be faster or less speed and have more armor etc..). There would be limits on what you can and cant do to it, so you dont end up with a zealot thats as fast as a vaga and can tank like a sacrilege. If you wanted to modify a bpo it would require a lab at a pos, many high skilled people, weeks to modify and cost a few hundered mil atleast.This would give larger corps and alliances with a strong industry to acomplish. If you really wanted to make it tricky make it so that you have to have sov over the system its being made in.
Keyrn Araknor	Posted - 2006.02.10 04:50:00 - [118] If you don't like the price, don't buy it. If no one buys these so called "overpriced" hacs, then the prices WILL fall. Anyone who can't understand this simple solution should be shot. Take a basic economics course please.
balveda mo	Posted - 2006.02.10 06:29:00 - [119] Originally by: Miri Tirzan Originally by: sidthesexist Somthing really needs to be done about the prices of new ships. Its pathetic that you look at the market and see things such as the hulk for 600m when their standard build price is what? 40m? Its sickening to see. Another example, Cov Ops Cloak II. There is one person in this game that has almost all the BPO's of it, meaning he controls the price. Wrong? Yes! We need market police- Like in real life, if there are things going on that are obviously rip-offs there are services that deal with it. Trade agencies and customs- We need somthing like this in eve. More than that i havent worked out yet, but items should now be allowed to be sold for more than tripple what their build cost is, let alone almost 5 times their build cost. Whaaaa, we need an economy where everything is sold at the mineral costs and almost no profit. Most of those ships are only marginally better and here is the biggy "YOU DONT HAVE TO BUY THEM, NO ONE DOES!" If you dont buy them then the price goes down... if people buy them then the price stays the same and if more people want them then there are in supply the price goes up. Whaaa, I dont understand economics and I want everything to be cheap. Please, quit the whining. Unlike the T1 economy, T2 actually works because it is not flooded. You dont have to use T2 anything to be successful. I have been on more than one op where we take T1 frigates and go *****T1/T2 ships. Actually Miri the point is that for all the shiny new stuff there are only a few - more like only one person - that can build it. So the suppliers are dictating the price not the buyers. It's a monopoly which is never the plan of a proper economic system (yes I know economic science says it might come that in the real life too). In a perfect market there should be multiple suppliers and a lot of demanders - or at least that's what some economic brains think. And then the price will be adjusted by supply and demand properly. :)
Beringe	Posted - 2006.02.10 07:23:00 - [120] Originally by: Elknine And 3 weeks waiting times :) Exactly. Never mind the price - more need to be seeded because of lack of availability. The supply is clearly way too low if people have to wait forever to get the HAC they want. ------------------------------------------- Never underestimate the power of language.

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