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Reimbursement policy + undocumented features

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F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.10 17:36:00 - [1] I'd like to discuss the reimbursement policy considering losing stuff due to undocumented features/unintended behaviour. Here are two examples: 1) If you use repair drones on a non-corpmate (who is not criminaly flagged) in empire = concordokkened. 2) If you log off before an agression timer runs out, the timer is reset to another 15 minutes. I once logged off 14 minutes after agression, and got podded 28 minutes after the agression occured. In both cases the GM's won't be able to undo the unjustice and have you swallow the bitter pill. Wrong? I sure think so.
F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.10 17:51:00 - [2] Originally by: Maya Rkell The second of those behavioirs is ENTIRELY intended. It is to prevent people from logging to escape the consequences of their actions. The first, however, sounds like a nasty bug (I don't know directly, never used repair drones in highsec) which SHOULD be a known issue and petitionable. The second example happened to me before RMR was released. It could very well be that it is intended to work like that, but it sure is/was undocumented! I lost full set of halo implants because I assumed I was safe when I logged off 14 minutes after losing my ship. I am not pleading to get them back, I just want to discuss this. Undocumented is the keyword here.
F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.10 18:06:00 - [3] Edited by: F4ze on 10/02/2006 18:06:23 Actually, a dev response stating that this is how it is intended would be appreciated. My sense of justice says it isn't... Being podded 28 minutes after agression is just harsh.
F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.10 18:32:00 - [4] Edited by: F4ze on 10/02/2006 18:32:51 You should read my post: I don't want to change the pvp logoff timer. I don't want to change criminal flagging. It's undocumented about how it works. Getting concordokkened for using repair drones on a non-flagged player = wrong. PVP logoff timer reseting after logging off = wrong.
F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.10 18:50:00 - [5] Edited by: F4ze on 10/02/2006 18:52:48 Originally by: BlackHole Bob Originally by: F4ze Edited by: F4ze on 10/02/2006 18:32:51 You should read my post: I don't want to change the pvp logoff timer. I don't want to change criminal flagging. It's undocumented about how it works. Getting concordokkened for using repair drones on a non-flagged player = wrong. PVP logoff timer reseting after logging off = wrong. dude i read your post and am not attacking you... 1. turn on your criminal flagging in esc menu. then you get a warning if your going to get concordoken (very simple solution for criminal issues that you dont understand) 2. I would never shoot a player and kill him and not know how it works. Obviously you know how it works. Do your homework before robbing the bank next time. You might not get caught. But if thats not possible, send the bank a complaint that there security is not documented. use the help channel as you can gain most if not all answers for anything in that channel you could always open a petition...but then you know thats not right either and CCP told you so.. so now you lost your ship. or what ever. and you need a reason to believe it of course couldn't be your playing habits. welcome to EvE...whis i could help more and give you answers but this is simply how the game works... many have LOST alot in eve many times over...welcome to the club...you now have been royally hazed by ccp:) Dude, you _are_ attacking me. 1) Didn't happen to me. 2) It was a war. I know that the pvp logoff timer is 15 minutes (I read patchnotes every time). I COULD NOT POSSIBLY know that the pvp logoff timer is reset when you log off. I had to lose 1.5 bil worth of implants to learn that! EDIT: this thread is derailing a bit. I only wanted to discuss reimbursement of stuff lost to undocumented features. Anybody could lose stuff over something they could not possibly have known or predicted and it won't be reimbursed. And that is wrong imo.
F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.11 00:20:00 - [6] Originally by: Tenacha Khan Most stuff is not docmented, you have to test it out for yourelf. The pvp timer resetting to 15mins when you log off is documented, and makes sense. The repair drone thing sounds like a bug, but if they say it isnt, then it isnt. I am surprised to say the least. Can you provide a link?
F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.11 01:01:00 - [7] Edited by: F4ze on 11/02/2006 01:02:10 Originally by: Gray Carmicheal Originally by: F4ze Edited by: F4ze on 10/02/2006 18:06:23 Actually, a dev response stating that this is how it is intended would be appreciated. My sense of justice says it isn't... Being podded 28 minutes after agression is just harsh. Logging to avoid combat is just weak. Sorry. But yeah, I think the Repair drones thing is a bug, I've seen it happen too. It's sad. I didn't log off to avoid combat FFS! I logged off because I wanted to go to bed and I thought that after 14 minutes of warping around, my pod would disappear in one minute. But it didn't and I got probed and podded after 28 minutes. On a timescale it would look like: Combat -> 14 minutes -> log off -> 14 minutes -> podkilled. I assumed that it would be: Combat -> 14 minutes -> log off -> 1 minute -> ship disappears. Actually, I'm pretty sure that 99% of all people do not know how this works.
F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.11 01:32:00 - [8] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Nyphur You don't get reimbursed for making mistakes due to not knowing how something works. It's not CCP's fault you didn't test how these things worked or asked someone before trying. It's your fault. CCP doesnt explain how new features function, and I dont see a point to annoy your customers with unfinished/undocumented stuff. If they didn't explain it, why don't you just test it? They didn't completely explain probes, write guides on target-jamming or give us the stacking penalty or capacitor recharge equation. People found those by testing it. Honestly, why should they document everything well or even at all? We even have an entire server for testing it. There's no excuse for going blindly into a battle assuming you know how an undocumented feature works. If patch notes say "logging off after pvp now has a timer of 15 minutes". Would you assume that there is more to it than just that? Or if a Gallente control tower says "100% bonus to silo capacity". Would you assume that it's not working and test it? No! You would anchor a silo, verify that it works, leave your pos for 10 days, and after 10 days return to find that half of your materials are gone because the bonus was not applied after the next DT. (I've seen this happen also, and no reimbursement whatsoever). Or what if you fly a recon ship into hostile territory equiped with a cloak and a cyno generator and get blown up because you tried to activate your cloak and it didn't work. You would get no reimbursement. Or if you put your dread into siege mode assuming that it can't be jammed and then all of a sudden find yourself being jammed and subsequently killed (this is now fixed)? You guessed it....no reimbursement. I could go on and on, some things more unjustified than others. I have no problem at all with some reimbursements being refused, but in case of undocumented features and bugs, I can't see how CCP justifies a no-reimbursement-policy.
F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.11 01:33:00 - [9] Originally by: Hllaxiu Linky Quote: REMEMBER: You must be online for the 15 - 20 minutes it takes for the aggression timer to count down. You can¦t log out, wait, then log in again. Its an older entry, but its talking about the same effect. Whenever you do a session change (jump, eject from a ship, logoff, dock, etc.) you reset your agression timer. Its how its always worked. That's the concord agression timer, which is unrelated to the pvp logoff timer. Try again....
F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.11 02:37:00 - [10] Originally by: SK Rooster dude tbh most ppl dont give a crap about your interpretation of the log off rules. the fact of the matter is, if you logged off before the timer, you deserved what you got. most ppl will agree with me on this, it dont matter if you were 'tired' to others it just looks like youre logging to avoid death. end of story. From the FAQ: If a character is criminally flagged, the flag stays active for at least 15 minutes after the criminal activity. The timer does not expire after jumping between solar systems. If the player commits another criminal act while the flag is active, the timer restarts. How would you interpret it? I'm this > < close to starting to flame people.
F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.11 11:28:00 - [11] How could it be open to abuse if the pvp logoff timer was 15 minutes no matter what? Suppose you log off 8 minutes after combat and then you disappear from space after another 7 minutes of being logged off. I don't see a problem with this.

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