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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2258
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Posted - 2013.11.08 23:54:00 -
[31] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence."
I didn't say that they were out to do harm to the Empires, I just said they don't give a damn. |
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Anomalous Existence
134
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Posted - 2013.11.09 01:18:00 -
[32] - Quote
This was incompetence to the point where it effectively acted as malice.
First point: Back when I lived in Curse, the Sendaya gate in Doril was well-known as a camping "hot spot". To think that there'd be sweet nothing on the opposite side of it is utterly irresponsible. Can I please have an extended conversation with the scouts and commanders of that fleet?
Second point: If we truly had the Empires' backing on this, why did they basically commit zero assets to the table? This isn't an agent mission in a 0.5, where credible capsuleer threats are few and far between. This was an expeditionary strike into the heart of pirate-owned 0.0 space, much of which has significant subpopulations from the sovereignty-holding powers in surrounding regions, as well as 'exiled' former sovholders and nomadic and resident populations of capsuleers, both unaligned and from non-sovholding alliances. To think that an organization such as Rote Kapelle that prides themselves at their prowess in capsuleer-on-capsuleer combat wouldn't be going into a fight of this magnitude guns blazing and contact lists cleared is...nonsensical, at best.
Third point: There were likely no sanity checks on fleet composition, and no effort was apparently made to allow straggling pilots to regroup, which under the reported time-dilated conditions, 'smeared' the fleet out over space. Furthermore, the commanders apparently had no appreciation of the strategic impacts of such time dilation.
Fourth point: CONCORD really doesn't give a damn. |
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
213
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Posted - 2013.11.09 01:39:00 -
[33] - Quote
ALXVP attempted to act in a data-gathering role, at first shadowing and later going ahead of the Minmatar-Gallente fleet into Syndicate in order to figure out what exactly it was that was being fought over. The very fact that many of us were able to speed ahead to 8V-SJJ and watch the two fleets meet each other minutes later is testament to how poor operational security was on the part of the Empire fleet. A lot of us were also confused when the commander from the Republic Fleet brought a Broadsword and bubbled many of the capsuleers who came to support the very fleet he was in command of. Of course, pilots didn't react well to being bubbled and some of them even turned on him in desperate attempts to save their own ships.
It wasn't planned well and was poorly executed. We do know what was being fought over, but whether or not it warranted such a huge loss of life (and not to mention some of the worst PR I've seen for the Big Four among capsuleers) remains questionable. I can only guess the scientific developments the Serpentis promised will be revealed soon and hit the market in short order.
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Caviar Liberta
Moira.
Villore Accords
208
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Posted - 2013.11.09 04:26:00 -
[34] - Quote
Iwan Terpalen wrote:Jennifer Maxwell wrote:I saw the writing on the wall en rout. No sign of Navy support, no sign of Concord support, and a direct rout into Nullsec through a known staging system for multiple Nullsec alliances[...] Knowing when you're about to get massively screwed over is a rare skill, as is having the backbone to bow out when literally thousands of people are moving right along anyway. Hang on to that.
Shouting how high in response to CONCORDS command to jump isn't very capsuler like.
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Lyn Farel
Kitzless
634
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Posted - 2013.11.09 14:20:00 -
[35] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Concord doesn't care about you.
Concord doesn't care about your faction.
Isn't this a good thing ? |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
Naquatech Syndicate
1252
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Posted - 2013.11.10 09:45:00 -
[36] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Concord doesn't care about you.
Concord doesn't care about your faction. Isn't this a good thing ?
It would if we weren't still bound by their laws. |
Constantin Baracca
209
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Posted - 2013.11.10 09:57:00 -
[37] - Quote
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Concord doesn't care about you.
Concord doesn't care about your faction. Isn't this a good thing ? It would if we weren't still bound by their laws.
That's not necessarily true. Good arbiters of the law apply them without regard to person or association, but by legal definition.
Essentially, CONCORD, as our judge, jury, and sometimes executioner, shouldn't care about us or our faction, only on the principle of the rule of law. This whole expedition may have been a debacle, but I'm not entirely sure it wasn't a well-meaning debacle. We're already killing and dying in legislated faction warfare for absolutely no reason, so is there really no justification for doing the same in trying to take the fight to pirate organizations outside civilized space?
If anything, we as capsuleers have no righteous pedestal from which to judge CONCORD's disregard for human life. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
634
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Posted - 2013.11.10 11:18:00 -
[38] - Quote
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Concord doesn't care about you.
Concord doesn't care about your faction. Isn't this a good thing ? It would if we weren't still bound by their laws.
Which laws bounding capsuleers would you want to see then ? |
Chinwe Rhei
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
42
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Posted - 2013.11.10 11:45:00 -
[39] - Quote
I'm sorry but it's one thing to lose a dozen ships to gatecamps. I find it impossible to believe that you would lose several hundred ships to gatecamps with virtually no impact on the enemy if that was not your goal in the first place. Even the most incompetent of leaders with the greenest of pilots would've either gathered their troops or diverted through another route after the first losses.
You were lead to your deaths on purpose. I'm glad i couldn't be there for the fiasco.
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Constantin Baracca
211
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Posted - 2013.11.10 12:00:00 -
[40] - Quote
Chinwe Rhei wrote:I'm sorry but it's one thing to lose a dozen ships to gatecamps. I find it impossible to believe that you would lose several hundred ships to gatecamps with virtually no impact on the enemy if that was not your goal in the first place. Even the most incompetent of leaders with the greenest of pilots would've either gathered their troops or diverted through another route after the first losses.
You were lead to your deaths on purpose. I'm glad i couldn't be there for the fiasco.
There's a problem with that argument, though. None of the capsuleers were actually led to their deaths; they're all still around. What possible reason would CONCORD have to deliberately aggravate a group of well-armed, essentially independent contractors that it knows it would simply be temporarily inconveniencing?
No, this all smacks of simple incompetence. CONCORD FCs, for all their technology and their experience in keeping empire space livable, simply do not know how to deal with a gate camp. Those who had never before left empire space who went with them, because of CONCORD, never deal with gate camps.
I wouldn't consider it a stretch of credibility to simply say that CONCORD and high-security residents are generally unfamiliar with nullsec tactics. Otherwise, they simply would have cleared a few imperial titans to jump the entire fleet, group by group, to the target destination.
Simple lack of logistical intelligence is all. If you want to give CONCORD credit for being conniving at all, ask what they would possibly have to gain from such a colossal blow to their reputation, especially to a group of immortal ship pilots. There is absolutely no good reason they would have intentionally done this that isn't drastically overshadowed by a glaring reason why they wouldn't.
So it's fairly simple to surmise that they thought a few thousand capsuleers were a few thousand capsuleers, residency and experience be damned. CONCORD never were noted for being particularly bright. |
Iwan Terpalen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
59
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Posted - 2013.11.10 12:25:00 -
[41] - Quote
In a nutshell, yeah. You've got to wonder. If CONCORD did what CONCORD does best, and simply smacked a fat bounty on whatever they wanted destroyed, those nullseccers that were doing this turkey shoot would instead be falling over themselves to be the first to do it.
What's up? |
Constantin Baracca
211
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Posted - 2013.11.10 12:42:00 -
[42] - Quote
Iwan Terpalen wrote:In a nutshell, yeah. You've got to wonder. If CONCORD did what CONCORD does best, and simply smacked a fat bounty on whatever they wanted destroyed, those nullseccers that were doing this turkey shoot would instead be falling over themselves to be the first to do it.
What's up?
Maybe CONCORD wanted to prove it could lead nullsec fleets, too.
... You know, it's good to have a glass of cognac on hand. That way, when you need to stifle a giggle, you can do it politely. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
634
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Posted - 2013.11.10 13:24:00 -
[43] - Quote
Constantin Baracca wrote:Chinwe Rhei wrote:I'm sorry but it's one thing to lose a dozen ships to gatecamps. I find it impossible to believe that you would lose several hundred ships to gatecamps with virtually no impact on the enemy if that was not your goal in the first place. Even the most incompetent of leaders with the greenest of pilots would've either gathered their troops or diverted through another route after the first losses.
You were lead to your deaths on purpose. I'm glad i couldn't be there for the fiasco.
There's a problem with that argument, though. None of the capsuleers were actually led to their deaths; they're all still around. What possible reason would CONCORD have to deliberately aggravate a group of well-armed, essentially independent contractors that it knows it would simply be temporarily inconveniencing? No, this all smacks of simple incompetence. CONCORD FCs, for all their technology and their experience in keeping empire space livable, simply do not know how to deal with a gate camp. Those who had never before left empire space who went with them, because of CONCORD, never deal with gate camps. I wouldn't consider it a stretch of credibility to simply say that CONCORD and high-security residents are generally unfamiliar with nullsec tactics. Otherwise, they simply would have cleared a few imperial titans to jump the entire fleet, group by group, to the target destination. Simple lack of logistical intelligence is all. If you want to give CONCORD credit for being conniving at all, ask what they would possibly have to gain from such a colossal blow to their reputation, especially to a group of immortal ship pilots. There is absolutely no good reason they would have intentionally done this that isn't drastically overshadowed by a glaring reason why they wouldn't. So it's fairly simple to surmise that they thought a few thousand capsuleers were a few thousand capsuleers, residency and experience be damned. CONCORD never were noted for being particularly bright.
I have to admit that I find all the fuss and anger about CONCORD a bit strange. They seem to have turned yet again into the usual scapegoat, though may I remind you that CONCORD only issued a call for a strike on two objectives in nullsec, on the behalf of the mutual agreement that was made between all of the four major nations of the clusters, without which nothing of the sort would have been possible in the first place ?
May I also remind that CONCORD merely issue the call, and as much as they could have provided the support that they promised with the four signatories, that eventually most of the commanders and actual leaders that leaded to that fiasco were actually part of the various navies of the signatories, and not CONCORD or DED ? The Caldari FC Sami Okuuda ? Amarr admiral Ren Karetta ? That Minmatar pilot in that railgun fitted broadsword that chose to activate his interdiction field generator when one of these fleets was trying to evacuate ?
From what I have read, heard and seen, maybe the incompetent ones are the empires themselves, and CONCORD, not so much... |
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