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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 20 post(s) |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
430
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Posted - 2013.11.08 15:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
If you want to balance RLMLs, start by balancing LMs.
I'd also have a think about just removing them altogether. People say that more options and more stuff is better, but if it's broken by definition (think about how caracals make destroyers totally obsolete), then it's better to just get rid of it.
Also, if you're going to have yet another very long reload timer module, having reload timers be visible somewhere would be great. The number of times I've been in a plex with my AAR reloading, and another guy about to land on me, then I make the wrong decision about staying or leaving because I'm too lazy to remember when I pressed the reload... |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
432
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Posted - 2013.11.10 16:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Alright, so far I feel like I'm seeing 3 major areas of complaint, alongside a lot of people who think this will be a good change. Those areas are:
40s reload is boring and will be miserable to use please don't do it Switching ammo types (other damage types or to FOF(does anyone actually use fof?)) will be very difficult which is key for missile users This is a nerf to RLML and I love them so please don't do it I'm not convinced at all by the first complaint. As I've said before, this delay creates new kimds of decision making, it creates spikes of tension in fights rather than a flat amount of damage moving around and beyond those things it can be completely mitigated if you want. As others have pointed out, simply splitting your launchers into two groups and alternating them means you are never stuck in reload. It also means you lose the advantage of having your damage front-loaded into a very high DPS number. Still, if you can completely bypass this 'downside' I don't see how you can argue that this mechanic alone ruins the system.
I commented earlier on the missile switching - I think it is a valid complaint and I'd like to find a work-around for it as an iteration but I don't think it's a show-stopper. Several of the ships using these systems are kinetic bonused which means you don't switch that often. You still have time to switch on the way to a fight based on what damage type might be best. You still have the option to switch as you run out of charges and would be reloading anyway. But again, this is a legit complaint and I want to look into it.
Most of the complaints about it being a straight up nerf make me feel like going ahead with the old plan and leaving RLML in their current state would have been a mistake. I think most of you feeling this way are just disappointed with the idea of losing a slightly over-powered weapon system, which is understandable. Please keep in mind that this change represents a 15-20% damage drop over long fights but offers a new advantage in trade. I suspect that ships like FW Caracals with RLML will remain very strong. Also, if they don't, it's very easy to tune the reload time down slightly or the rate of fire up slightly to bring them into balance and we would absolutely watch that and make necessary adjustments. I would be extremely unhappy if the numbers were bad and rapid launchers disappeared from Caracals and Fleet Scythes completely.
Broader complaints about missiles vs turrets or training time often have merit, but they represent much bigger projects that we fully intend to take on, just not during this rebalance. We hear you though and hopefully we can start working on major module balance projects in the coming releases as we are closing in on finishing our first lap of all the ships in the game.
Hope this answers some of your concerns
light missiles themselves have overpowered range, volley damage, dps and tracking compared to small LR turrets, so fix that first.
edit: and fofs are amazing, try undocking sometime. no ecm ship is going to ever miss a jam on a lone caracal, so you can either take a hit to your dps and start killing everything, or you can sit there with your mighty faction missiles loaded and do 0 dps. my only issue with fofs is that they shoot drones - this is less of an issue for lights, because they can actually kill drones pretty well. |
TrouserDeagle
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432
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Posted - 2013.11.10 17:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:As missiles have the least amount of options
that's a lie |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
432
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Posted - 2013.11.10 17:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
Scooter6976 wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:As missiles have the least amount of options that's a lie In terms of ammunition, missiles have quite a few options. In terms of launchers, they're all pretty much the same within a size class and range type. ^^^true medium ac's: 180mm and meta variants 220mm '' '' 425mm '' '' medium arty: 650mm and meta 720mm and meta caldari: rlm's and meta hml's and meta hams and meta 5 vs 3 should I continue?
no because you dumb |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
432
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Posted - 2013.11.10 18:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:THe last time I saw a dev idea so relentlesly bashed as HORRIBLE , was back at zulupark time, when we got ideas like limiting carriers to only fighters
I liked that idea though. |
TrouserDeagle
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432
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Posted - 2013.11.10 21:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Not a good idea Rise. And have the real bad feeling you are just gonna push this thru anyway. It's basically gonna be "loot bukkake" all over again. Tossed up on the forums a couple weeks before release. Player base tells you it's a horrible idea. Gets pushed thru anyway. Becomes a horrible game mechanic that players avoid. All this has happened, and will happen again.
This is not a difficult module to implement. You just make it do 15% less sustained dps in comparison to the long-range missile system. HML Caracal does ~250dps, RLML Caracal does ~215dps. Trade damage, for better fitting and application against smaller targets. So BS-sized you'd see ~700dps Cruise, and ~600dps RHML. Does it massacre smaller ships? Yes. that's the whole point. Does it get it's ass handed to it by same-size ships with standard fitting? Yes. Which is the balance. Done. Why is this hard?
Still far too good vs smaller ships. |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.11.10 22:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Onictus wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Not a good idea Rise. And have the real bad feeling you are just gonna push this thru anyway. It's basically gonna be "loot bukkake" all over again. Tossed up on the forums a couple weeks before release. Player base tells you it's a horrible idea. Gets pushed thru anyway. Becomes a horrible game mechanic that players avoid. All this has happened, and will happen again.
This is not a difficult module to implement. You just make it do 15% less sustained dps in comparison to the long-range missile system. HML Caracal does ~250dps, RLML Caracal does ~215dps. Trade damage, for better fitting and application against smaller targets. So BS-sized you'd see ~700dps Cruise, and ~600dps RHML. Does it massacre smaller ships? Yes. that's the whole point. Does it get it's ass handed to it by same-size ships with standard fitting? Yes. Which is the balance. Done. Why is this hard? Still far too good vs smaller ships. Blasting small ships is supposed to be the point.
That's the point of destroyers, and they come with no hp and are now slower than cruisers, and don't do it very well at 60km. |
TrouserDeagle
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432
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Posted - 2013.11.10 23:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kat Ayclism wrote:That's not an issue of the RLMLs it's an imbalance issue of the heavies.
nope |
TrouserDeagle
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433
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Posted - 2013.11.10 23:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Kat Ayclism wrote:That's not an issue of the RLMLs it's an imbalance issue of the heavies. nope Yup. If HMLs could actually hit targets you might see them used in small gangs/solo fleets. Instead you use RLML with pathetic less than Destroyer DPS so you can actually hit something. It's akin to a Thorax using Light Neutron Blasters and people QQ'ing that it hits frigates.
light neutron blasters have about 3km range. range bonused lights have 60km and are immune to ewar. HMLs hit fine, why can't people just l2p and make an effort? |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.11.10 23:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:That's the point of destroyers, and they come with no hp and are now slower than cruisers, and don't do it very well at 60km. Well I'd agree that the speed between attack cruisers and dessies is a bit out of balance. And that the velocity bonus on the Caracal should probably NOT apply to Light Missiles. But dessies are still more agile, warp faster, and have a smaller sig - so they do have that going for them. Cruisers will get rocked pretty hard by an ABC. A competent dessie pilot - not so much. And having more than one ship class option for the same role is good. Key is to not have one class obsolete the other.
40km is still immense for the base (with skills) range of a frigate weapon. And come on, do you seriously believe that a destroyer will survive being on-grid with a cruiser that's in range? Nobody cares what your sig is, you're totally screwed. |
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TrouserDeagle
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434
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Posted - 2013.11.10 23:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
Morrow Disca wrote:RIP RLML Caracal, you were fun while you lasted. Guess i'll go get drunk til CCP fixes you again in 4 years.
It was overpowered even before they did the massive unnecessary light missile buff a few expansions ago. |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.11.10 23:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:40km is still immense for the base (with skills) range of a frigate weapon. And come on, do you seriously believe that a destroyer will survive being on-grid with a cruiser that's in range? Nobody cares what your sig is, you're totally screwed. Well yeah, it would still jack up a dessie pretty hard. That's not terribly surprising. A cruiser that you fit to kill frigs and dessies should probably be able to do that rather effectively. Now drop a standard Thorax or Omen on the same grid as that Caracal, and it's the one that is gonna be screwed. It's paper-rocks-scissors. You are one hell of a small ship pilot Deagle, but stop looking at things from just that point of view.
How about rather effectively, but far worse than a destroyer, since you're as fast and have 4x the hp. |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.11.10 23:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Morwennon wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Vladimir Norkoff wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:40km is still immense for the base (with skills) range of a frigate weapon. And come on, do you seriously believe that a destroyer will survive being on-grid with a cruiser that's in range? Nobody cares what your sig is, you're totally screwed. Well yeah, it would still jack up a dessie pretty hard. That's not terribly surprising. A cruiser that you fit to kill frigs and dessies should probably be able to do that rather effectively. Now drop a standard Thorax or Omen on the same grid as that Caracal, and it's the one that is gonna be screwed. It's paper-rocks-scissors. You are one hell of a small ship pilot Deagle, but stop looking at things from just that point of view. How about rather effectively, but far worse than a destroyer, since you're as fast and have 4x the hp. That's true for all attack cruisers compared to the corresponding destroyers; it's not an indication that the caracal is imbalanced, it just shows that destroyers need reworking. Hell, some *combat* cruisers outrun destroyers.
Yeah, it's not difficult. Dragoon with 400 plate and 2 armour rigs goes 1335m/s. Even if they had appropriate speed, they'd still be pretty poor frig-killers in actual fights, because everything can explode them instantly, whereas a cruiser has loads more hp, and when fitted with frig or anti-frig weapons can fit just about everything it would ever want. |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.11.12 17:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
So nothing about fixing light missiles at all? It's pretty silly to be 'balancing' the launchers around an overpowered charge. If you fixed LMs, you'd be fixing about 5 overpowered kiting frigates, and then if RLMLs are still too good, you could take another look at them afterward. |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.11.27 12:35:00 -
[15] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:You guys really can't continue to claim I haven't acknowledged your negative feedback.
You haven't acknowledge that light missiles are stupid, perhaps because you only look at 'usage metrics'. |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.11.27 12:38:00 -
[16] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Dav Varan wrote:CCP Rise wrote: Since launch, I've been continuing to monitor the effect of the rapid missile change through usage metrics, discussion with CSM, conversation with players I know who are using them and using them myself on TQ. I see that some places, especially in this thread, there's a lot of frustration still about the change in general but the majority of it is lacking any substance except for the simple claim that 40 seconds of reload isn't fun.
Put the 40 second reload onto every weapon in game if its such a great mech. give me front loaded damage, selectable damage types, exccelent projection and tracking and I'd happily have it @CCP Rise: Could you please look into the turret version of these weapons (the Dual 150mm rails, quad light beam lasers etc) because those things are god awful at shooting frigates. The 150mm rails fitted to a thorax using Javelin with a scrammed and webbed and tracking computer can't even hit a cruiser anywhere inside it's engagement envelope. The damage of these weapons and the range is just fine. Their tracking is just so terrible.
Rails with antimatter at antimatter range track way better than javelin at javelin range. |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.11.27 20:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
I find it funny that people complain about needing web or tp to apply damage to same-size targets with missiles.
Should missiles just do full damage at all ranges instead? Stop being bad. |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.09 11:37:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. As I'm sure you know, we're keeping an eye on how people are using the new Rapid Launchers, watching how people adapt to the new strengths and weaknesses of them and keeping a close eye on the metrics surrounding them. We're also getting some good experience flying with them on our own player characters in a live environment. Rest assured that we're not ignoring these modules.
As a quick tidbit of metrics for you: Over the last week the number of characters using RLMLs each day was 6.5% lower than the pre-Rubicon average. We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.
Thanks as always for the continued feedback!
But all this tells you is what people think of them, not how good they actually are. Why all this metrics nonsense instead of fixing light missiles? |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.09 15:19:00 -
[19] - Quote
Moonaura wrote:If you look at Light Missiles, they are overall fine
lol |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.09 17:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
Dr Sraggles wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Moonaura wrote:If you look at Light Missiles, they are overall fine lol I believe he was talking about the characteristics of the missile itself, not the old Rapid launchers, not the precision version, just the missiles (flight time, explosion velocity, explosion radius, flight speed etc). This is also separate from ship bonuses etc.
I also am talking about the missile itself. it's totally broken OP. |
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TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.09 19:08:00 -
[21] - Quote
Dr Sraggles wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote: I also am talking about the missile itself. it's totally broken OP.
Please share your thoughts for why that is so. On the grand list of weapons that people are actually using it pales in comparison to Blasters, Rails and Auto Cannons. http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20
it's in that list 3 times. crow #3 on ships. those stats are irrelevant however - this is a balance discussion.
this is a pretty long list, I sometimes forget bits of it:
very high alpha - between 250 and 280mm artillery - this really bothers attack frigates, because they have zero hp, and is also annoying on active tanks, as they can sneak past most of your buffer. usually about 50-100% more dps than you'd get kiting with LR turrets. too much tracking - they apply perfectly to slowboating frigates, and with a rig or module or two and precisions, you can easily crack tanky afterburning frigates. capless, all damage types, ability to use FOFs vs ecm and damps, not vulnerable to tracking disruptors - same deal as cruise missiles I guess, but worth mentioning, as they are all reasons for me not to fly a beam executioner. multiplies perfectly with snakes/links/speed mods for ridiculous kiting ability, since you don't have to worry about transversal or being out of range, you can just crank up the speed and tackle range forever. with turrets you'd end up using iron or radio or whatever, and you'd still missing if you want to just orbit at max speed. useful t2 ammo types for a variety of targets, whereas when kiting with turrets, generally you only have one ammo that's applicable for your range, and the t2 ammo is actually niche and sensible (i.e. you never use it). |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.09 19:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:On the grand list of weapons that people are actually using it pales in comparison to Blasters, Rails and Auto Cannons. On the grand list of weapons, light missile launchers appear twice - in the #19 and #20 positions, respectively. You'll note the complete absence of rockets, rapid light missile launchers, heavy missile launchers, heavy assault missile launchers, rapid heavy missile launchers and cruise missile launchers. I think that's telling, don't you?
not really, since it's always the missile that shows up on the kill, rather than the missile launcher, and I'm guessing eve-kill have filtered those out like they have with drones. |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.09 19:33:00 -
[23] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:not really, since it's always the missile that shows up on the kill, rather than the missile launcher, and I'm guessing eve-kill have filtered those out like they have with drones. I'm just going off the list you cited, where it lists the top 20 kill weapons. So if the missile was in fact showing up on the kill, we'd see heavy and heavy assault launchers in this list (among others). We don't - that speaks volumes.
it was some other guy, not me. I merely looked it over, then said it doesn't speak volumes about anything. |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.09 19:34:00 -
[24] - Quote
Moonaura wrote:Trouser, if you're using Rails on a Thorax, you don't need to load iron to reach to disruptor range - not even close. Iridium is a good bet, and will still hit fast kiting ships. Agreed, in that situation its not as good as a Light Missile - however...
thorax is not a kiting frigate. I was comparing LR missiles to LR turrets for kiting frigates.
a solo rail thorax is only going to kill idiots. |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.09 20:35:00 -
[25] - Quote
Dr Sraggles wrote: 1. The Crow is a ship, not a missile. The success of ships on that list is tied to Null Blob Doctrine.
2. Light Missiles are at the bottom of the list of the top 20 for weapons with a very small fraction of the kills of Blasters and Auto Cannons.
3. I agree that kiting ships are where Light Missiles shine, but the numbers show that Brawling is where the VASTLY greater majority of kills take place. I hate being kited too. But I love to kite. Brawling gets me more kills.
4. Auto Cannons are the ones that have the advantage ammo wise. Most Caldari ships are bonused for Kinetic and lose ~25% of their dps if they change ammo.
5. Please tell me what can't hit a slow boating frigate? My bro in a Naga has no trouble with them at 200km.
6. Snakes and Links and Tackle range are a separate discussion as well. I know a Rapier/Arazu/Loki pilot that enjoys them just as much. Lets face it, most people are not out there in 1 Bill isk pods if they PvP a lot. If they are really mixing it up in Null esp.
So with your focus on FOF and hurting EAF so much perhaps we should create a thread about the OP new changes to those ships? New devastating Neuts and Webs and Ewar ranges...??? 32km range on Neuts for a Frig? WTFover?
All of my toons are training EAF as we speak.
1/2. I already said those numbers are irrelevant and inaccurate, if you read some other posts. in case you do think they are relevant though, I think eve-kill is only counting actual highslot weapons, and not charges that show up as your weapon on the killmail (this happens with missiles 90% of the time). just like how it's not showing any drones in the top weapons list, despite dominix apparently being the most popular ship. the crow's popularity is from nullblobbing, even though it's not the best fleet tackler. it is not just for nullblobbing though. if you can get someone to engage you in it, you'll find that it's like a condor, but even more ridiculous.
3. irrelevant, and it's all rock paper scissors. you get no kills in a condor because everyone knows it's grossly overpowered so they never engage.
4. small autocannons cannot hit anything at range unless on a wolf, and even then are not used for kiting. kestrel and breacher have all-types damage bonus, and losing 20% is better than not being able to choose. against t2 ships it's very useful (I guess arguably because kinetic sucks).
5. an attack frigate orbiting it at 4km/s. the point is, missiles are supposed to sometimes do reduced damage. they don't do it often enough with light missiles, because they track too well since their sig got a 25% buff.
6. yeah they're broken too, but they aren't unrelated, because they enhance these ships more than they enhance other ships. if you make an effort, you are immune to being podded in lowsec and link alts are immune to pvp, so why not? there are jump clones for when you want to be reminded how bad nullsec is. and again, what 'most people' do doesn't matter much. |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.09 20:54:00 -
[26] - Quote
Marcus Walkuris wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:3. irrelevant, and it's all rock paper scissors. you get no kills in a condor because everyone knows it's grossly overpowered so they never engage. Really now???? It's not like condor's are tackle or like they have a super popular bigger brother in both caldari and Amarr interceptors. It isn't like these are dedicated tackles and there have been swarms of them flying around at the speed of infinity.
a 'dedicated' tackler does 0 dps |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.09 21:16:00 -
[27] - Quote
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Marcus Walkuris wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:3. irrelevant, and it's all rock paper scissors. you get no kills in a condor because everyone knows it's grossly overpowered so they never engage. Really now???? It's not like condor's are tackle or like they have a super popular bigger brother in both caldari and Amarr interceptors. It isn't like these are dedicated tackles and there have been swarms of them flying around at the speed of infinity. a 'dedicated' tackler does 0 dps You can't fix stupid.... Edit: it is entirely possible the a dedicated tackler does 0 dps, but the overwhelming tendency of your posts is very much on the stupid side.
that's pretty rude, especially considering that I'm right about everything. might have to report you. |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.10 22:56:00 -
[28] - Quote
Fourteen Maken wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Last chart for a bitGǪ promise. Caracal RHML-HAM ComparisonThis one is specifically for Caracal users. I didn't include the original RLMLs because, well - it's depressing - and you've already been kicked enough with the last update... I've highlighted the ideal choice (bright red and bright blue) depending on application, ie: frigates - RLML Precision; cruisers - HAM Javelin. Rigs were a T1 hydraulic, T1 rigor and T1 flare for both. With Precision LMs, you gain almost 100% damage application without the use of electronic warfare, but at the expense of range (36.4km); Faction will give you less damage application but 72.8km range (and you could probably swap-out the hydraulic for an EM shield rig instead). For HAMs, Javelin all the way. Less damage application than Faction, but you get a really decent 52.4km range (which compares favorably to the unmodified 63.3km Faction RLMLs). If you opt for RLMLs I wouldn't even bother with a target painter or web. A single TP is a definite must for HAMs though, as this will greatly improve damage application against everything (particularly small targets). A web for HAM Javelins defeats the purpose of clawing back any range loss from switching from RLMLs. Just for kicks I included HAM Rage, but these really only shine against battlecruisers and battleships. You could probably improve this with rigors, flares and some electronic warfare component - but this will greatly weaken your tank and basically place you at point-blank firing range for turrets. Awesome I have a lot of skills to level up first but I think your right; looks like Javelin HAM's are the way forward for Caracals now, I can see them being useful defending medium plexes, pity the fittings are so tight I really need near perfect skills to get the best out of them. and thanks, at least now I know what to train towards
if you're going in with the intention of using jav hams, you may as well be using hmls instead. |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.11 00:35:00 -
[29] - Quote
Vincintius Agrippa wrote: I am in the Caldari Militia. We never use caldari ships or missile ships above frigs and dessies. Cruisers on up we fly amaar < gallente < minmatar. In that order. Since Test joined they have been trying use moas, but they fail in every regard. Moas that is.
you're pretty awful |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.11 00:41:00 -
[30] - Quote
Fourteen Maken wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:
you're pretty awful
Whats awful about that?
moas are the ****, and lol, why would anyone fly minmatar except as a joke? |
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TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.18 15:52:00 -
[31] - Quote
Are people seriously implying that all missiles are bad, or just the new terrible rapid launchers? |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.18 16:24:00 -
[32] - Quote
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Are people seriously implying that all missiles are bad, or just the new terrible rapid launchers? No, only rapid launchers and heavy missiles. Heavy assault missiles could be good with damage application buff and torpedos could use some extra range.
I feel torpedoes could use reduced charge size. It's not possible to actually kill anything with them before reloading, and you can't carry any at all in cargo because they're so huge. Also expensive, for some reason.
I'd be down for an all-around buff on heavy missiles, basically undoing the nerf, but I'd like to see it at the same time as CCP de-sillying the fitting requirements - heavies and cruises should probably use lots of fitting like light missiles and all the other LR weapons in the game. It's all backwards right now, and I don't get why. |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.18 16:58:00 -
[33] - Quote
Why are you guys so mad about missiles being bad at fleets? So are combat drones, so are blasters, so are entire classes of ships. |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.18 17:27:00 -
[34] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Why are you guys so mad about missiles being bad at fleets? So are combat drones, so are blasters, so are entire classes of ships. Missiles are bad at fleets because of time to impact (it's simply too long). While you're correct about combat drones, this is not the same for sentry drones and drone assist. That's instant damage and massive alpha on a huge scale.
We're all well aware that sentry drones are broken with omnidirectionals and drone assist. I was just saying that it's not like there's an entire race who only uses missiles. The only people who are only trained to use missiles are very bad people.
A nice suggestion I saw once was to make turrets do damage at the end of their cycle, rather than at the start, which would be cool in many ways, both to balance high-alpha weapons and to make missiles and combat drones less bad relatively. Obviously, logistics would need some of the nerfs they've needed for years if this was to happen. |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.18 18:34:00 -
[35] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:We're all well aware that sentry drones are broken with omnidirectionals and drone assist. I was just saying that it's not like there's an entire race who only uses missiles. The only people who are only trained to use missiles are very bad people.
A nice suggestion I saw once was to make turrets do damage at the end of their cycle, rather than at the start, which would be cool in many ways, both to balance high-alpha weapons and to make missiles and combat drones less bad relatively. Obviously, logistics would need some of the nerfs they've needed for years if this was to happen. Not entirely, but the Caldari are largely missile-based. If you made a short-list of the top 3 missile ships and the top 3 hybrid ships, Caldari would dominate the former but probably be large absent from the latter. I think if we addressed sentry drones and drone assist you might see fleet doctrines change a bit. I'm not entirely optimistic this will happen at the rate CCP seems to be pumping out drone-based ships, thoughGǪ That is an interesting suggestion, to be sure.
It's mostly even at T1 and T2, but they need some hybrid navy ships. Minmatar are due for some missile ships as well. |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.18 19:46:00 -
[36] - Quote
Notorious Fellon wrote: the fun of null
funny guy |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.20 20:11:00 -
[37] - Quote
Coraxes are awful in every way except looks. Even the overpoweredness of light missiles do not make up for the corax's badness. |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.21 00:49:00 -
[38] - Quote
lol @ trying to kill frigs with light drones |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2013.12.23 14:48:00 -
[39] - Quote
I've not seen a graph yet that says heavy missiles are anything less than fine - not even the ones that don't know what transversal velocity is. I think it's time to stop posting. |
TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2014.01.10 01:08:00 -
[40] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi, time to visit this thread again!
I wanted to let those of you still paying attention here know that we aren't satisfied with the current state of rapid launchers and are expecting to make changes in coming releases to improve the situation.
For now, I don't have details to give you but I want to let you know what we're looking at.
First, and most importantly, it's important to me that this mechanic feels fun to use. It still hasn't been that long since they hit TQ but a lot of the initial feedback is not great on this aspect. It's likely that for Rubicon 1.1 we will make a small adjustment to both RLML and RHML to either give you more active time or less reload time, I'll let you know when that change is pinned down exactly. Going past 1.1 we want to collect more data and feedback so that if we make a larger change (which we are considering) to the system as a whole it's as informed as possible. That larger change would come either in 1.2 or in summer depending on what it was.
Second, I've been working on the ammo swapping issue and will not be able to get in a change for 1.1. Solutions for this have been messy and we aren't satisfied enough with any of them to try and make them fit in this release. As we iterate after 1.1 I want to solve this issue one way or another.
Last, I'm doing some investigation for getting some kind of reload timer work going. Can't say if and when this would happen but it would have enormous value so I'm looking into it.
please fix light missiles and stop being terrible |
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TrouserDeagle
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Posted - 2014.01.10 13:22:00 -
[41] - Quote
Kesthely wrote:
In order to -FIX- Rapid launchers you don't actually go to the rapid launchers, but focus on the underlying problem.
HEAVY MISSILES and HEAVY ASSAULT MISSILES
I think you mean light missiles |
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