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Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative
31
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 02:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
Something that has been holding a modicum of my attention for years now, and is now PAINFULLY obvious among the capsuleersof the State... The devolution of the concept of heiian into an at whim set of titles that fall into a horrendous, nearly pop culture set of terms that we, all of us, apply solely based on our singular, personal perceptions of those who we otherwise laughingly call kirjuun...
Good Caldari, Bad Caldari.
I keep looking for some source of this hypocrisy, of which I've been guilty of at times, and every answer I hear or find has been hollow, concocted to save "face" for an entire culture that is now thickly layered in the blame game. When we nearly fell apart, we blamed the Federation, because its there. When we marched down the path that drained Kaalakiota and lost us Home, we bkamed Heth, after we followed him there like sheep, unwilling to consider where the endpoint was. And now, we take our cheap shots at each other... Pick a reason, pick a creed, pick anyone with whom we have a disagreement.
It always comes down to Good Caldari, Bad Caldari, terms applied as if WE have the right to twist and warp what it means to be who and what we are for the sake of momentary convenience. To toss it about like a passing fad, like some Gallente fashion. Who are we that we sit and delight in demeaning our own kin for the sake of propping our own egos up? What have we become that we sit and BICKER under a pretense of "conflict strengthens", when all it strengthens is the rifts that we insist on opening ourselves, doubtless to be blamed on anything but the source...
Us. The milling mob screaming "Good Caldari!" when it suits them, and "Bad Caldari!" when it doesn't.
Do what you will with this, but it damn well needed to be aired in the aftermath of the absolutely despicable arguments over CONCORDS CTA. As for those that I have, in the past, played this reprehensible card on, you have my apologies. |

Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
605
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 03:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
Good Caldari - are those, who do their duty, follow their orders and work for benefit of the whole State, instead of themselves or their close surroundings. Bad Caldari - are either those, who prefer their own interests, or those, who doubt orders of superiors, or those, who help gallente, or those, who don't respect our heroes, like, for example, author of this topic. |

Nicole Graves
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
9
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 03:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
I predict this thread to go places. |

James Syagrius
The Philalethes Society
594
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 04:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Good Caldari - are those, who do their duty, follow their orders and work for benefit of the whole State, instead of themselves or their close surroundings. Bad Caldari - are either those, who prefer their own interests, or those, who doubt orders of superiors, or those, who help gallente, or those, who don't respect our heroes, like, for example, author of this topic. Ms. Ishikari.
As I am sure my friends in the State would rather not hear from the "other side", let me just say this.
I think Ms. Kim just demonstrated your point rather eloquently.
Honest self reflection is rare and has rightly preoccupied me lately, so... I honestly wish you well. |

Ava Starfire
Stormcrows
1298
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 04:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
/me sets up a lawn chair, makes some popcorn
Dont mind me. Just here for the party. |

Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative
34
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 07:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ava Starfire wrote:/me sets up a lawn chair, makes some popcorn
Dont mind me. Just here for the party. I doubt you'll see much, Shaman. People have a tendency to ignore anything and everything that calls for thought and consideration. At best, I suspect it to turn into a bunch of self absorbed idiots sniping at me and each other, as I did from the moment I threw it up in this cesspit for all to see and deride. Its nothing but a chain of thought that I can't keep stuck in my head any longer.
Mr. Syagrius, the gesture is appreciated, nonetheless. |

Derek Quaid
Discreet Bounties
225
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 08:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
Can't we all just get along?
Clearly the answer is no. Give me a shout for any bounty needs you may have. Nothing says "You're a bad [insert ethnicity]" like a big pricetag on someone's head. |

Constantin Baracca
209
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 09:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
It's a somewhat common feature of cultural life. We tend to perceive things according to a specific worldview, and those things we don't find particularly appealing we have a tendency to write off under a rather subjective label. My people tend to call this heresy. Most "heresies" aren't necessarily heresies, but the opinions of one that do not necessarily align with another's. Surely, heresy exists and we have quite a few good examples of things which are objectively heretical, but too often we turn it into a prism through which to color our universe as we desire.
So it is in Caldari society with "dishonor," I suppose. As everyone does, the Caldari have a tendency to shield themselves from opinions they disagree with by accusing those others of disloyalty and cultural blasphemy. It is a shield at best and a smokescreen at worst, meant to prevent their own faults from being scrutinized or from having to confront the idea that someone else may be unfortunately correct. For sure, there are certainly objectively un-Caldari views, but not so many as have been unjustly applied the label. Judgement has always said more about the principles of the judge than the principles of the accused. Obviously, we cannot judge someone from anothers' mind. We only have our own principles to guide our wisdom.
In the end, principle is all that we have as people that separate us from crocodiles, so we shouldn't bandy about terms of cultural hegemony without deep self-reflection. One would think it to be quite a burden to define who, and what, a Caldari is, yet so many seem quick to take up that mantle. We are often, as capsuleers if not simply as human beings, foolish enough to don the robes of a judge before completely understanding the foundation of their authority. Judgement is something that should be deliberated heavily and set forth humbly.
I do not think, sometimes, both of those responsibilities are taken seriously. |

Lyn Farel
Kitzless
634
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 11:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt |

Constantin Baracca
211
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 12:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt
Essentially. |

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1024
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 13:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
The truth for me is that for some, denial is better than the truth. Clinging to the remnants of a former life. Searching for truth, meaning and reasons in a life where there exists nothing but the choices we make as transhuman infomorphs. I am no longer as I once was. To believe I am, carries with it only the burdens of falsehood, lies, denial and delusion. It is nothing but an affectation to me to think I still remain Caldari as I once was -- my own people seek to distance themselves from what I am now. As they should, just as our ancestors once sought to distance themselves from the predators that lurked in the dark. Rightfully am I to be shunned, and to be abhorred: for the violence I inflict, the blood I spill, the lives I extinguish. A beast and a monster has no place among the people.
Once I recognized that fact, I no longer felt the need to waste my time or energy decrying others for failing to adhere to cultural norms for I myself am now outside my own people. I live on the outside, looking inwards to the life I have lost long ago. What recriminations can affect someone like me now? I have already thrown my old life on the pyre, to be consumed by the flames of necessity. For that is the measure of my sacrifice. Gladly now shall I serve the homeland of my fathers with an eternity of blood and ash. As who I was died, it was so that others may live. Now I shall march towards the drums, the graves of my ancestors, for come what may the Maker will always favour the brave, and since I can neither forgive nor forget, I will just kill them all, with no regret. |

Constantin Baracca
213
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 13:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:The truth for me is that for some, denial is better than the truth. Clinging to the remnants of a former life. Searching for truth, meaning and reasons in a life where there exists nothing but the choices we make as transhuman infomorphs. I am no longer as I once was. To believe I am, carries with it only the burdens of falsehood, lies, denial and delusion. It is nothing but an affectation to me to think I still remain Caldari as I once was -- my own people seek to distance themselves from what I am now. As they should, just as our ancestors once sought to distance themselves from the predators that lurked in the dark. Rightfully am I to be shunned, and to be abhorred: for the violence I inflict, the blood I spill, the lives I extinguish. A beast and a monster has no place among the people.
Once I recognized that fact, I no longer felt the need to waste my time or energy decrying others for failing to adhere to cultural norms for I myself am now outside my own people. I live on the outside, looking inwards to the life I have lost long ago. What recriminations can affect someone like me now? I have already thrown my old life on the pyre, to be consumed by the flames of necessity. For that is the measure of my sacrifice. Gladly now shall I serve the homeland of my fathers with an eternity of blood and ash. As who I was died, it was so that others may live. Now I shall march towards the drums, the graves of my ancestors, for come what may the Maker will always favour the brave, and since I can neither forgive nor forget, I will just kill them all, without regret.
Spoken like a woman who woke up regretting the day vodka was invented...  |

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1024
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 13:37:00 -
[13] - Quote
Constantin Baracca wrote:Spoken like a woman who woke up regretting the day vodka was invented... 
Spoken like a man whose only measure is posting on the IGS.
|

Constantin Baracca
213
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 13:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Constantin Baracca wrote:Spoken like a woman who woke up regretting the day vodka was invented...  Spoken like a man whose only measure is posting on the IGS.
That's not true, I measured a fifth of cognac remaining this morning. |

Naraish Adarn
Alexylva Paradox
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 14:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
A bad Caldari reporting in. Going by Kim-haani's definition i'm a bad caldari but by personal definition Honor and duty are still important to me thou my loyalties lie in my current corporations leadership and my self. i see state currently being only marginally better option than current gallentean "democracy" as atleats states meritocracy is honest in its implementation now that its been cleansed of taint caused by Heth's presence. but time will tell if the megas keep their promise to their workers and the people of the state. |

Gwen Ikiryo
Perkone Caldari State
174
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 15:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
Pardon me for interrupting the dialogue with something a bit personal - On the off chance you're reading, Tuulinen-haan, I want to clarify that what miss Gesakaarin is saying right now isn't quite what I intended to convey to you the prior night. While we might be percieved in a manner that alienates us from society and earns us considerable wariness, I'd not say that we're all that different from other human beings when you rub off the proverbial finish. After all, many would likely love us more as the mindless objective-oriented war machines she describes then as what we actually are. That is, diverse individuals with diverse motivations, and a slightly harrowing degree of personal power.
In fact, if anything, it glorifies the Capsuleer class a great deal more then it perhaps deserves. I'd wager that if you started asking random pod pilots if they chose the profession out of a desire to sacrifice themselves for the greater good, or out of a simple desire for wealth and/or immortality, then counted the number of honest former anwsers on your fingers...
Well, you'd run out of Capsuleers before you ran out of fingers, I think. |

Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2281
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 16:00:00 -
[17] - Quote
Thanks for the clarification, Gwen. I suppose I'm fortunate in that I was simply ordered to report for testing and then orderd to report for training. Personal choice didn't really enter into the matter and, in fact, I was singularly unequipped for the moment when my instructors said "Here's your ship. You've graduated. Now, go off and do what you want." |

Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1300
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 16:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
Saya Ishikari wrote:Something that has been holding a modicum of my attention for years now, and is now PAINFULLY obvious among the capsuleers of the State... The devolution of the concept of heiian into an at whim set of titles that fall into a horrendous, nearly pop culture set of terms that we, all of us, apply solely based on our singular, personal perceptions of those who we otherwise laughingly call kirjuun...
Good Caldari, Bad Caldari.
I keep looking for some source of this hypocrisy, of which I've been guilty of at times, and every answer I hear or find has been hollow, concocted to save "face" for an entire culture that is now thickly layered in the blame game. When we nearly fell apart, we blamed the Federation, because its there. When we marched down the path that drained Kaalakiota and lost us Home, we blamed Heth, after we followed him there like sheep, unwilling to consider where the endpoint was. And now, we take our cheap shots at each other... Pick a reason, pick a creed, pick anyone with whom we have a disagreement.
It always comes down to Good Caldari, Bad Caldari, terms applied as if WE have the right to twist and warp what it means to be who and what we are for the sake of momentary convenience. To toss it about like a passing fad, like some Gallente fashion. Who are we that we sit and delight in demeaning our own kin for the sake of propping our own egos up? What have we become that we sit and BICKER under a pretense of "conflict strengthens", when all it strengthens is the rifts that we insist on opening ourselves, doubtless to be blamed on anything but the source...
Us. The milling mob screaming "Good Caldari!" when it suits them, and "Bad Caldari!" when it doesn't.
Do what you will with this, but it damn well needed to be aired in the aftermath of the absolutely despicable arguments over CONCORDS CTA. As for those that I have, in the past, played this reprehensible card on, you have my apologies.
I think that this is a very human problem, not one carried specifically by Caldari. It has to do with our prediction modeling algorithm. Bluntly, we have a hard time believing that we're wrong, even when presented with evidence to the contrary. We are, of course, good Caldari, so the other individual who disagrees must therefore be a bad one. Our concept of Heiian is correct, both in general and in this instance. Clearly the one who disagrees must hold the wrong positions on both.
We have been both blessed and cursed with our faculties.I think that the solution (for the individual, at least) is to become intimate with the feeling of wrongness - to know well how it feels to be wrong, to take the wrong course, to hold the wrong position, so that we might be able to better correct ourselves.
I'm getting good exposure to the feeling, at least.
|

Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
241
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 16:34:00 -
[19] - Quote
Yes, but I am correct, Scherezad. People keep forgetting this little universal constant.
Sillies. |

Erys Charantes
University of Caille Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 07:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
To put it simply... People will believe, and proclaim, absolutely anything that supports their ends. Those taking the time to try and convince others such is not the case, are either lying, or deluded. |

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1045
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 08:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
Erys Charantes wrote:To put it simply... People will believe, and proclaim, absolutely anything that supports their ends. Those taking the time to try and convince others such is not the case, are either lying, or deluded.
A good thing then that I have no ends but my duty and obligations, and am one of the honest few with no agenda to hide or words to lie. |

Isis Dea
State Protectorate Caldari State
342
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 08:57:00 -
[22] - Quote
Good Caldari = Caldari who remember their people, the lower class, that which founds their State and allows the funding of their capsuleers. Caldari who contribute, who matter to mortals, their roots. Caldari who adapt and evolve over hiding behind methods that might have worked for them in the past.
Bad Caldari = The opposite. Those that hide behind their capsuleer titles. Those who see one man's (Heth's) crime and become so incredibly naive that they become puppets of the Caldari Elite. Those who only contribute pointless sarcasm over any form of constructive substance.
These are the things that inspire this Jaijii to serve. |

Anatole Madullier
Alexylva Paradox
153
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 09:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
I know that as stereotypical gallentean I have very little say in who is a good and who is a bad Caldari.
Having said that, I know and mingle with quite a few Caldari and I keep an open mind and I find that those Caldari who can be classed as "good Caldari" are inherently also "good people". I know this might sound odd, but bear with me here.
I have found those people to posses a sense of selflessness, a desire to help, and a genuine care for the people they fly with, for the worlds they come from and the people on the ground who made everything possible. There is a dedication and duty to their ancestors and their future kin that I can respect.
Just this jaijii's two cents hmm. aÑÉ |

Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
2389
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 13:42:00 -
[24] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:In fact, if anything, it glorifies the Capsuleer class a great deal more then it perhaps deserves. I'd wager that if you started asking random pod pilots if they chose the profession out of a desire to sacrifice themselves for the greater good, or out of a simple desire for wealth and/or immortality, then counted the number of honest former anwsers on your fingers...
Well, you'd run out of Capsuleers before you ran out of fingers, I think.
It intrigues me how frequently sacrifice and the greater good are equated, and are held as being fundamentally opposed to the quest for wealth and power.
Yes heiian exists, but something that is not often discussed is the notion that the greater good can in fact be served by becoming wealthy and powerful. Which in fact is the entire point behind the State's capsule training program and the reason the megacorps are willing to tolerate the existence of any breakaway Caldari freecaptains. They recognise what isn't often spoken aloud - that a powerful economic driver like a freelance capsuleer is, properly exploited, a powerful force for collective benefit in their own right.
One capsuleer's greedy and callous power-brokering is a multi-billion ISK industry, with all the associated jobs that such industries generate.
If you need proof of that, just look at Jita 4-4. how much money does the Navy make off taxes and service charges at that station? And that money flowing into the Navy benefits the State, the megacorporations and their citizens.
Capsuleers can paradoxically be "good Caldari" in the sense of contributing to the well-being of our people, by being "bad Caldari" in the sense of being solely self-interested. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|

Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
3465
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 15:02:00 -
[25] - Quote
Good Caldari, bad Caldari, good Gallente, bad Gallente...**** it's all subjective to me. One person's good is another person's bad. One person's bad is another person's good. No one, no race or group, has any real authority to label **** like that.
In other words, **** haters, get isk. Ignore them and live your life. If they don't shut up, kill them. All of them.
Easy!
EDIT: Also Tuulinen's and Stitcher's beards are both paragons of what true Caldari men should be like. Just sayin'.
|

Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
2390
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 15:06:00 -
[26] - Quote
Hung over, Anslo? An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|

Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
3465
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 15:09:00 -
[27] - Quote
Perpetually. But aside from the beard crack, the rest I was serious about. I thought Caldari were about doing yourself, taking care of your own house. When did being judgmental become a thing?
|

Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
2391
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 15:13:00 -
[28] - Quote
Caldari are about being Caldari. Tautological, I know, but a more in-depth examination of that thought would border on being an essay. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|

Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
3465
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 15:16:00 -
[29] - Quote
OK, it's about being Caldari. I mean to me it was about being independent and able to live as you want but I maybe that and simply 'being Caldari' is the same. I dunno, I guess when I heard 'it's about being Caldari,' then see people bickering about what makes a good Caldari or bad Caldari...it just seems ironic. Maybe even hypocritical.
|

Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
2392
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 15:28:00 -
[30] - Quote
Our cultural independence is part of it, yes. Meritocracy is another. Then there's tradition, loyalty, industriousness, collectivism, Heiian, meritocracy, comradeship...
I don't think of it as a linear spectrum with "bad Caldari" at one end and "good Caldari" at the other, but more like a spiderweb graph. Speaking for myself I think I'm a very good Caldari in some areas, and a catastrophically bad one in others.
It's made all the more fuzzy by the way my definitions of "good" and "bad" in any given category may differ wildly from those of my countrymen. I tend to be of the opinion that it is a Caldari virtue to be intellectual, of inquiring mind and sharp insight. Others would have it that having faith in the intelligence of others while keeping your head down and working hard rather than smart is superior. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|

Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
3465
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 15:31:00 -
[31] - Quote
Eh, guess my understanding of Caldari culture is off then.
|

Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
2392
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 15:32:00 -
[32] - Quote
Anybody who claims to understand Caldari culture is lying. Especially if they are Caldari. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|

Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
33
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 15:57:00 -
[33] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Anybody who claims to understand Caldari culture is lying. Especially if they are Caldari. I couldn't agree with you more. |

Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1326
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 16:02:00 -
[34] - Quote
Oh, a network graph is an excellent idea for mapping cultural traits. I like that! |

Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
534
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 16:17:00 -
[35] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Anybody who claims to understand Caldari culture is lying. Especially if they are Caldari. What a load of BS. Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. |

Anatole Madullier
Alexylva Paradox
155
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 16:23:00 -
[36] - Quote
Funny enough a lot of the procurement and business intelligence classes I took at the Uni started off with a brief explanation about Caldari culture and history before moving on to business models.
Caldari culture and by proxy the Caldari as people were often painted ruthless, corporate, and uncaring.
I found the last thing to be very far from the truth. aÑÉ |

Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1327
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 16:26:00 -
[37] - Quote
Network graphs aren't networks? I feel robbed :( |

Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
2395
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 16:28:00 -
[38] - Quote
Desiderya wrote:Stitcher wrote:Anybody who claims to understand Caldari culture is lying. Especially if they are Caldari. What a load of BS.
The alternative is that they're mistaken. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|

Anatole Madullier
Alexylva Paradox
157
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 16:32:00 -
[39] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:Network graphs aren't networks? I feel robbed :(
Actually doctor a network graph is a very good tool to map cultural traits and trace back behaviours that might have a common origin.
You could do this for the state, or you could overlay this on the entire cluster. It would provide some very interesting insight however I do feel it would all still be trying to look to the past instead of, as mentioned before, adapting to what the future might bring. aÑÉ |

Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1329
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 16:35:00 -
[40] - Quote
Anatole Madullier wrote:Scherezad wrote:Network graphs aren't networks? I feel robbed :( Actually doctor a network graph is a very good tool to map cultural traits and trace back behaviours that might have a common origin. You could do this for the state, or you could overlay this on the entire cluster. It would provide some very interesting insight however I do feel it would all still be trying to look to the past instead of, as mentioned before, adapting to what the future might bring. But where are the relation heuristics? :(
Oh.
Ohh.
I could just make some. |

Anatole Madullier
Alexylva Paradox
157
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 16:41:00 -
[41] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:Anatole Madullier wrote:Scherezad wrote:Network graphs aren't networks? I feel robbed :( Actually doctor a network graph is a very good tool to map cultural traits and trace back behaviours that might have a common origin. You could do this for the state, or you could overlay this on the entire cluster. It would provide some very interesting insight however I do feel it would all still be trying to look to the past instead of, as mentioned before, adapting to what the future might bring. But where are the relation heuristics? :( Oh. Ohh.I could just make some.
I believe at this point and time we are already using objective stereotyping to find relationships between "good" and "bad" Caldari, it is a place to start. aÑÉ |

Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1332
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 16:47:00 -
[42] - Quote
Good and bad Caldari? I'm studying graph branching algorithms.
Oh, right. Yes, that. I'm not much of a social scientist outside of the lab. Unless you'd like a discussion on drone social behaviour. |

Anatole Madullier
Alexylva Paradox
157
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 16:51:00 -
[43] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:Good and bad Caldari? I'm studying graph branching algorithms.
Oh, right. Yes, that. I'm not much of a social scientist outside of the lab. Unless you'd like a discussion on drone social behaviour.
Actually, how about we meet up for something like that, because I actually am interested in that. aÑÉ |

Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1332
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 16:56:00 -
[44] - Quote
Anatole Madullier wrote:Scherezad wrote:Good and bad Caldari? I'm studying graph branching algorithms.
Oh, right. Yes, that. I'm not much of a social scientist outside of the lab. Unless you'd like a discussion on drone social behaviour. Actually, how about we meet up for something like that, because I actually am interested in that. I can get you clearance for Dronehaus if you want to come see my babies :) |

Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2335
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 17:34:00 -
[45] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Anybody who claims to understand Caldari culture is lying. Especially if they are Caldari.
I tend to find that thinking about being Caldari is a bit like thinking about breathing. The dissection of it interrupts it's continuation, somewhat. |

Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
535
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 19:08:00 -
[46] - Quote
I'd agree that explaining it to outsiders can be quite tough. Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. |

Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2335
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 19:32:00 -
[47] - Quote
Desiderya wrote:I'd agree that explaining it to outsiders can be quite tough.
I like to think I know it when I see it, though. |

Lyn Farel
Kitzless
637
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 19:56:00 -
[48] - Quote
Those threads about being Matari or Caldari, and this hyper-obsession over cultural identity, often makes one wonder if the clear, artificial distinction between natives and strangers as an excuse to elude the crux of the matter in public, is not actually a way to build artificial walls behind which said natives willfully hide because they are themselves looking for what truly is to be a true Caldari, or a true Matari...
Mhhh. |

Erys Charantes
University of Caille Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 23:56:00 -
[49] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Erys Charantes wrote:To put it simply... People will believe, and proclaim, absolutely anything that supports their ends. Those taking the time to try and convince others such is not the case, are either lying, or deluded. A good thing then that I have no ends but my duty and obligations, and am one of the honest few with no agenda to hide or words to lie. As you say. |

Constantin Baracca
243
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 00:13:00 -
[50] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Those threads about being Matari or Caldari, and this hyper-obsession over cultural identity, often makes one wonder if the clear, artificial distinction between natives and strangers as an excuse to elude the crux of the matter in public, is not actually a way to build artificial walls behind which said natives willfully hide because they are themselves looking for what truly is to be a true Caldari, or a true Matari...
Mhhh.
Do you like cognac? "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |

Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
535
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 00:34:00 -
[51] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Those threads about being Matari or Caldari, and this hyper-obsession over cultural identity, often makes one wonder if the clear, artificial distinction between natives and strangers as an excuse to elude the crux of the matter in public, is not actually a way to build artificial walls behind which said natives willfully hide because they are themselves looking for what truly is to be a true Caldari, or a true Matari...
Mhhh.
No, we only do this to exclude the likes of you. Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. |

Gwen Ikiryo
Perkone Caldari State
175
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 02:09:00 -
[52] - Quote
Desiderya wrote:Stitcher wrote:Anybody who claims to understand Caldari culture is lying. Especially if they are Caldari. What a load of BS.
While I won't attempt to judge if Hakatain-haan's statement is at all objectively correct, or attempt to profess any personal understanding as to what the true essences of Caldari Culture are and if indeed there is a "true" set of values from which all others are deviations (Or "Heresies", if you'll forgive the slightly crude analogy for which I intend no negative connotations), I will say that I have seen less sunsets then I have heard definitions of what it means to be "Caldari". And I mean from State-raised individuals, not foreigners.
Though obviously, the devil is always in the details, not the overall ideas. |

Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Cult of War
1608
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 05:14:00 -
[53] - Quote
In regards to foreign affairs, a "Good" Caldari just wants their State to be left alone with it's assets, people, and territory safe and secure.
"Bad" Caldari are those who wish to expand aggressively, to begin conflicts and wage war, to spread messages of hate and fanaticism and in a twist of poetic irony, become the very things that the Caldari originally found upsetting about the Federation.
As I always say. The story of Heth and the Provist is the story of trying to prove to the cluster that the Caldari are supreme, that they will succeed wherever the Federation has failed. Yet similar to the ancient tragic dramas, the only thing they managed to prove was that the Caldari were no less fallible than we were. Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |

Incindir Mauser
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
279
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 05:37:00 -
[54] - Quote
Good Caldari. The one that pays me on time.
Bad Caldari. The one who has a corpse floating in the heat-less void for not paying me on time. |

Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2335
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 06:25:00 -
[55] - Quote
Whoa, watch out. We clearly have quite the badass here. |

Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative
41
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 07:44:00 -
[56] - Quote
Incindir Mauser wrote: Good Caldari. The one that pays me on time.
Bad Caldari. The one who has a corpse floating in the heat-less void for not paying me on time.
At the risk of trolling my own thread...
This message brought to you by... Rent a Thug! Rent a Thug, when you simply can't afford to lose anything of cobsequence in the attempt!
Rent a Thug!... "Whose you guys need hoit?"
We now return to our regularly scheduled programming. |

Anatole Madullier
Alexylva Paradox
157
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 14:22:00 -
[57] - Quote
Incindir Mauser wrote: Good Caldari. The one that pays me on time.
Bad Caldari. The one who has a corpse floating in the heat-less void for not paying me on time.
That beard is way to styled to be a good Caldari, are you sure you haven't been watching those Gallentean makeover shows beau? aÑÉ |

Lyn Farel
Kitzless
637
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 23:21:00 -
[58] - Quote
Constantin Baracca wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Those threads about being Matari or Caldari, and this hyper-obsession over cultural identity, often makes one wonder if the clear, artificial distinction between natives and strangers as an excuse to elude the crux of the matter in public, is not actually a way to build artificial walls behind which said natives willfully hide because they are themselves looking for what truly is to be a true Caldari, or a true Matari...
Mhhh. Do you like cognac?
What ? Why ?
Desiderya wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Those threads about being Matari or Caldari, and this hyper-obsession over cultural identity, often makes one wonder if the clear, artificial distinction between natives and strangers as an excuse to elude the crux of the matter in public, is not actually a way to build artificial walls behind which said natives willfully hide because they are themselves looking for what truly is to be a true Caldari, or a true Matari...
Mhhh. No, we only do this to exclude the likes of you.
I apologize if I hit a nerve... It was not intended. |

Constantin Baracca
247
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 23:24:00 -
[59] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Constantin Baracca wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Those threads about being Matari or Caldari, and this hyper-obsession over cultural identity, often makes one wonder if the clear, artificial distinction between natives and strangers as an excuse to elude the crux of the matter in public, is not actually a way to build artificial walls behind which said natives willfully hide because they are themselves looking for what truly is to be a true Caldari, or a true Matari...
Mhhh. Do you like cognac? What ? Why ?
Just wondering.  "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |

Lyn Farel
Kitzless
637
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 23:49:00 -
[60] - Quote
I am afraid that I am not much into alcoholic beverages and self-inebriation...
But I really do not understand what this has to do with the matter at hand ? |

Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
3494
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 15:53:00 -
[61] - Quote
Incindir Mauser wrote: Good Caldari. The one that pays me on time.
Bad Caldari. The one who has a corpse floating in the heat-less void for not paying me on time.
Good Caldari. The one that lets actions speak for themselves. Bad Caldari. The one that might cut himself on the edge he's swinging around.
|

Wreck Diver
Eyvastur Thukker Asset Procurement
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 16:15:00 -
[62] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Incindir Mauser wrote: Good Caldari. The one that pays me on time.
Bad Caldari. The one who has a corpse floating in the heat-less void for not paying me on time.
Good Caldari. The one that lets actions speak for themselves. Bad Caldari. The one that might cute himself on the edge he's swinging around.
I would very much like to purchase an edge upon which I can cute myself. Not particularly bothered if it makes me Bad Caldari, since being good isn't at the top of my agenda.
Ladies love cute, right? |

Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
3494
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 16:20:00 -
[63] - Quote
You apparently like reaching for low hanging fruit too. That desperate for attention, or did someone I **** off pay you to snipe me?
|

Wreck Diver
Eyvastur Thukker Asset Procurement
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 16:26:00 -
[64] - Quote
I do indeed enjoy low hanging fruit. I am better prepared for activities that actually require thought because of it.
Regardless, It was honestly meant in jest. Don't take it so seriously, you'll do yourself an injury. |

Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
3494
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 16:28:00 -
[65] - Quote
Wreck Diver wrote:I do indeed enjoy low hanging fruit. I am better prepared for activities that actually require thought because of it.
Regardless, It was honestly meant in jest. Don't take it so seriously, you'll do yourself an injury. But but but my edginess! What shall I do without it!?
|

Constantin Baracca
256
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 16:33:00 -
[66] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Wreck Diver wrote:I do indeed enjoy low hanging fruit. I am better prepared for activities that actually require thought because of it.
Regardless, It was honestly meant in jest. Don't take it so seriously, you'll do yourself an injury. But but but my edginess! What shall I do without it!? Be blunt? "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |

Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2426
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 18:07:00 -
[67] - Quote
Constantin Baracca wrote:Anslo wrote:Wreck Diver wrote:I do indeed enjoy low hanging fruit. I am better prepared for activities that actually require thought because of it.
Regardless, It was honestly meant in jest. Don't take it so seriously, you'll do yourself an injury. But but but my edginess! What shall I do without it!? Be blunt?
Well played. Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Director of Public Relations |

Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
3495
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 18:08:00 -
[68] - Quote
Constantin Baracca wrote:Anslo wrote:Wreck Diver wrote:I do indeed enjoy low hanging fruit. I am better prepared for activities that actually require thought because of it.
Regardless, It was honestly meant in jest. Don't take it so seriously, you'll do yourself an injury. But but but my edginess! What shall I do without it!? Be blunt? Right, my time in this thread is over, as I have been soundly defeated by Father Baracca here...
|

Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1348
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 19:47:00 -
[69] - Quote
Don't feel bad, Anslo. There's no need to cut your time short here :) |

Erica Dusette
Nighthawk Exploration
1213
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 22:09:00 -
[70] - Quote
I dislike being put in a good or bad box.
I'm a lawful evil Caldari citizen, and proud. ^_^ |

Kyseth
Touring New Eden Haven.
8046
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 22:20:00 -
[71] - Quote
Erica Dusette wrote:I dislike being put in a good or bad box.
I'm a lawful evil Caldari citizen, and proud. I don't ever remember you being evil. Was I just not paying attention? |

Erica Dusette
Nighthawk Exploration
1213
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 22:39:00 -
[72] - Quote
Kyseth wrote:Erica Dusette wrote:I dislike being put in a good or bad box.
I'm a lawful evil Caldari citizen, and proud. I don't ever remember you being evil. Was I just not paying attention? *Grins* That's because you're a friend, I'm always lawful to my friends, evil to everyone else.
Heh, who am I kidding. I'm a softy all 'round really. ^_^ |

Davlos
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
84
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 11:58:00 -
[73] - Quote
I don't know what I am. |

Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2359
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 15:36:00 -
[74] - Quote
If you're flying with Q-Cats you're a pretty worthless Caldari. Just saying. |

Cheng Sawal
Rapid Salvage Unit
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 21:45:00 -
[75] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Stitcher wrote:Anybody who claims to understand Caldari culture is lying. Especially if they are Caldari. I tend to find that thinking about being Caldari is a bit like thinking about breathing. The dissection of it interrupts it's continuation, somewhat.
I see your point, but like most things the definition of Caldari is always in flux and that affords us the opportunity for insight. Different moments in history, different leaders and different circumstances provide us the necessary distinctions for introspection.
Today's good Caldari can be tomorrow's bad Caldari and vice versa.
"This moment is the first time I understood what it meant to be Caldari: Divinity in the flock, delivery in flux, one being, many changes." Janto Sitarbe, The Legendary Flock |

Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2372
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 22:52:00 -
[76] - Quote
That is because nobody is the totality of an idea - they are all people, first and foremost. Even the meanest of people can, sometimes, be inspired to rise to the occaision. Even the noblest of people can fall in an hour of need.
Essentially, this is the heart of our need for kirjuun. None of us can be a good Caldari in splendid isolation, because we are only Caldari at all when we are collectively striving for the good of ALL Caldari. What few issues I have with people like Verin stem from this feeling - that separating yourself from the rest of us to go and be a better Caldari outside the State is, essentially, missing the very point of being Caldari.
But I am aware that this opinion is just that, an opinion. I still honour all those who strive to keep to the Way and honour the State in their daily lives. |
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