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Gren'nan Adeena	Posted - 2006.02.15 17:34:00 - [1] hi all. this may seem like an unorthodox question, but i'm interested in tanking lv 4 missions (or at least some of them) in a Prophecy. disclaimer #1) hold on before you bbq me...i've got two friends in 1400mm sniper tempests dealing damage from afar. all i'm interested in is being able to tank lv4 npc's for about 6-8 minutes. disclaimer #2) this setup is purely hypothetical. notice the lack of named/t2 items. disclaimer #3) i'm no lv 4 expert. beyond helping some friends clear jump-in areas in my AF on a few lv 4s, i've never actually completed one myself. nor am i really interested...mission running is not my main focus atm. just trying to help out. highs: 2 or 3 x lasers. 1x heavy missile launcher 3x medium nos I meds: 1x 10MN AB I 2x cap recharger I Low: 4x energized plating (therm, explosive, kinetic, adaptive) 2x med armor repairer I I can hold one repper indefinitely w/out nossing. i can hold both w/ nos. (QuickFit) potential problems? what do you think? my battlecruiser skill is at lv 3. i have nothing against named items, and if i were to do this, i'm sure almost all my mods would be named. but again, just hypothetical.
red royalty	Posted - 2006.02.15 17:57:00 - [2] well looking at this you have no chance on tanking a lvl 4 in a proph it just dosnt have enough armour or resistance, if you want to complete the mission you will also have to use ur guns and with 3 med lasers you havnt got a chance in hell against in a bs. how many sp's have u?
MaxPower	Posted - 2006.02.15 18:16:00 - [3] Hmm, well eves lagged out atm, so i cant pull up the stats of the prophecy. But as to regarding your tanking, it wont work. You will need to use active hardeners not passive, and you need to make sure your type tanked against the npcs that will be attacking you. Problems you will have, is simply too much incoming damage. You will be running both reps full time, so will quickly run out of cap. I suppose its possible in a prophecy if youve got enough speed, basically you just run from the spawn, but this will require having the ability to pretty much insta-kill and frigs that might web you. As to using sniping tempests, this seems a bit pointless. For a start, in deadspace, its gonna take them 5 mins before they can get to distance. Your better off buying a tier one battleship, and setting it up purely to tank. Lots of hardeners, lots of nos's, and a medium drones and small guns for killing frigs. Then let your mates kill the cruisers and battleships. Your best bet though, is get one of the Tempests to tank. Set your prophecy up purely for damage and insta kill frigs. Me like PIE!!!1 -Capsicum Pie ist gut ja? - Imaran No no.. cAKe > Pie
Issalzul	Posted - 2006.02.15 18:18:00 - [4] Possible. If you can support one med repper you can tank most. I run an apoc setup like so in the lows: Large acco repper Med repper II 3x hardeners II (depending on rat type) 1x adaptive nano II (due to the resist bonus on the proph you can drop this easy, just get BC4) CPR And mids filled with Cap Recharger IIs. The only time I turn on my large repper is when i'm really getting pounded on. Namely, that mission where you fight an Angel BS and 5 BC, those hurt. Vengance mish might be a little much too. Tips on the setup: Drop the AB if you're doing nothing but tanking. Recharge rate is king. If you can get two med reppers running constantly, then you can tank more mish. Good luck, it's something I want to try later on too :)
Drayce	Posted - 2006.02.15 18:22:00 - [5] I'm sure reading will become a virtue at some stage Anyway, your tank looks good, I've heard of Feroxs tanking level 4s and with the kind of firepower you have backing you up I can't see many problems. I will recommend a couple of things though... 1) Skill up another level (or 2) in battlecruiser - the sake of a day or two (or 24) in training will give you some much needed resists. 2) Use the smallest medium lasers (for the better tracking) you can fit and use them to take out the frigate rats while your buddies are handling the Battleships and Cruisers. Possibly even fit a webber instead of the AB to slow them frigates all the way down.
Gren'nan Adeena	Posted - 2006.02.15 18:42:00 - [6] thx all. very good input. nod Drayce
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:10:00 - [7] No to the 4 energized plates. Have you any idea how hard that gets hit by the stacking penalty? If you hit one 55% hardener of each type, you get more resistance. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Thor69	Posted - 2006.02.15 23:17:00 - [8] I have lvl4 skills in all race BS's along with lvl4 or 5 gunnery/missile skills. I've tried every BS and found the Raven to be the best Lvl 4 mission runner. I can snipe from 143km with cruise missiles (I do have the advanced missile skills trained up now) and can usually blast everything before they get into firing range. You do have to make sure you have the right damage resistances for the rats you are fighting. Also know what type of missiles to use for the most damage on the rats.
Akarah Siminova	Posted - 2006.02.15 23:30:00 - [9] Are there any missions that a dual large t2 rep + 3 55% hardeners tank can't handle indefinitely?
Joshua Deakin	Posted - 2006.02.16 09:20:00 - [10] Do you think a Dominix can duke it out with npc aggro group at their optimals? My setup would be 2xT2 invul, 2*shield boost amps and a Gist B-type X-large booster. Combined with shield recharge I can run it 270dps forever. Lowest resistance to EM around 47%. So npc's need to deal pure EM damage atleast 500dps before they start eating my shield tank below 30%. Drones would do most of the killing, my setup can help with a couple of large turrets.
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2006.02.16 10:42:00 - [11] Originally by: Joshua Deakin Do you think a Dominix can duke it out with npc aggro group at their optimals? My setup would be 2xT2 invul, 2*shield boost amps and a Gist B-type X-large booster. Combined with shield recharge I can run it 270dps forever. Lowest resistance to EM around 47%. So npc's need to deal pure EM damage atleast 500dps before they start eating my shield tank below 30%. Drones would do most of the killing, my setup can help with a couple of large turrets. So you have never had a lvl 4 deal over 500 dps to you? ____________________ I'm not an idiot; I just play one on the forums.
Joshua Deakin	Posted - 2006.02.16 11:07:00 - [12] Originally by: Harry Voyager Edited by: Harry Voyager on 16/02/2006 10:50:34 Edited by: Harry Voyager on 16/02/2006 10:47:07 missread another post. Time to hit the hay, I think. Addendum: key question is can a 700 dps tank hold lvl 4's? Hardened or against zero hardening? 700dps tank against unhardened damage types would be quite uber... Considering that the best faction sb officer module gives 840hp/4s, add two shield boost amps at 45% would still give only 426 dps and that's higher than what armor hardening can do.
Lauriers	Posted - 2006.02.16 12:51:00 - [13] Can your mates use large armour repper drones on you - they work real well. As they say above use an active instead of stacking loads of passive mods, use nosfer in highs not guns to supliment your tanking. In short use a domi setup with 2 LARII and have a couple of your mates use armour repper drones on you with active hardeners and as many nos as you can get in the highs Tankatastic
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2006.02.16 16:43:00 - [14] Originally by: Joshua Deakin Originally by: Harry Voyager Edited by: Harry Voyager on 16/02/2006 10:50:34 Edited by: Harry Voyager on 16/02/2006 10:47:07 missread another post. Time to hit the hay, I think. Addendum: key question is can a 700 dps tank hold lvl 4's? Hardened or against zero hardening? 700dps tank against unhardened damage types would be quite uber... Considering that the best faction sb officer module gives 840hp/4s, add two shield boost amps at 45% would still give only 426 dps and that's higher than what armor hardening can do. Well, the base sps boost rate is 220 sps, but with just 2x Invul, the resists are 69%-80%. I can certainly get it higher with specifics, but this is the baseline. Harry Voyager ____________________ I'm not an idiot; I just play one on the forums.
MaxPower	Posted - 2006.02.16 19:16:00 - [15] Originally by: Joshua Deakin Do you think a Dominix can duke it out with npc aggro group at their optimals? My setup would be 2xT2 invul, 2*shield boost amps and a Gist B-type X-large booster. Combined with shield recharge I can run it 270dps forever. Lowest resistance to EM around 47%. So npc's need to deal pure EM damage atleast 500dps before they start eating my shield tank below 30%. Drones would do most of the killing, my setup can help with a couple of large turrets. No. You will die. Armour tank it. Do it right and you can tank almost any spawn. You could hold a full Angel extravaganze first lvl spawn without too much difficulty, especially with your mates killing the rats. If your tanking, your better using npc-specific hardeners in relation to the damage they do. Me like PIE!!!1 -Capsicum Pie ist gut ja? - Imaran No no.. cAKe > Pie
Phoenix Jones	Posted - 2006.02.16 19:34:00 - [16] Edited by: Phoenix Jones on 16/02/2006 19:37:50 Edited by: Phoenix Jones on 16/02/2006 19:36:48 I'm going to put in some theory ATM. Prophecy's Specs are 60 em 20 exp 25 kin 35 ther Now with the prophecy's bonus to resists.. (lets say BattleCruiser 3.. thats another 15%. With a Passive Nano Plate II.. thats +20 to all. With a Passive Nano Resist (which is different than the plate, different selection) thats +15 (15.4324...) With something like Damage Control (yes damage control), thats another 15 to all resists.. So thats 15 from BC 3 20 From Plate II 15 From The other nano armor. 15 From Damage Control.. For using 3 slots + your skill.. thats a total of 45 to ALL. Now add in Specific Passive Resist Skill (lets there all level 3). thats another 15 to all. SO thats 15 20 15 15 15 For using 3 slots.. you've gained global resists towards 60. Add in a Plate, a Repairer II (1 or 2 of em) and/or a Active hardener... that can be a rediculous amount of resists for a battlecruiser that uses almost NO CAP towards activating their resistance (basically, even if your cap is dead, or your being NOSSED.. your resists should Stay... while if you use Actives and you drain your cap... BOOM.
MaxPower	Posted - 2006.02.16 19:39:00 - [17] So..whats the final resists with that theoretical bit? Me like PIE!!!1 -Capsicum Pie ist gut ja? - Imaran No no.. cAKe > Pie
Phoenix Jones	Posted - 2006.02.16 20:52:00 - [18] Ok well using the Tanking.xls spreadsheet (I used 2 slots in place of 2 training skills, BS and Specific Armor hardener resists. Skills 15151515 (BC skill) 15151515 (indiv training resists) Passive Items 20202020 (adaptive nano plate II) 15151515 Resistance Plate (refugee) 15151515 (damage control) Came out to 76.02095461 52.04190922 55.0392899 61.03405124 Kinda suprised me cause I expected it to be higher.. though using armor specific passives (which come out to 30 or a bitmore.. that'd be higher. These resists are with a prophecy using only 1 cap per 20 seconds for resists.. and only taking up 3 low slots. With active resists.. skills 15151515 (BC skill) 0000 (training skill) Remember.. the armor hardenening skills don't work while Active Hardeners are running.. only when they are off.. and that percentage is 3%, not 5%. active resists 05500 (explosive) 00550 (kinetic) 00055 (thermal) total resists were 70.4325119 (em) 71.37271365 (explosive) 73.16191904 (kin) 76.74032984 (therm) when the hardeners are off. your resists are 68.65950714 37.31901428 41.23657589 49.0716991 Passive resists Averaged out about 15 to 20 points lower than actives when all actives are on.. but around 12 to 15 points higher when actives are off.. though the difference is that your using 30 energy (90 total) every 20 seconds for Actives instead of 1 energy every 20 seconds for passives (damage control). Most would ask.. well whats the bloody difference. 1) Less reliance on cap rechargers.. 2) Less cap use (the difference is a factor of 90).. or about a 9000% difference in Cap Use. Now you could equip a passive AND active Module to your ship to try for a good middleman approach. Now if you apply 2 passive resists (lets say the 20% nano and the 15% plate).. you get 75.633555 (em) 51.26711 54.31291563 60.40452688 If you equip 1 Active Hardener.. add in about 20 to any resist (except em) Now I could be running into a stacking penalty that I havent noticed or misused the spreadsheet and screwed it all up.. but I do believe this comes out to about right... I'll confirm it later tonight. Note. Lets say you maxed out BC and Your resist skills and used nothing but passives.. 25252525 (individual resist skills) 25252525 ( BC Skill) 20202020 (energized nano membrane II) 15151515 (resistance plate) 15151515 (damage control item) Totals: 80.39763515 60.7952703 63.24556591 68.14615712 This is with no active Hardeners.. using only 3 low slots.. and only 1 Cap Energy per 20 seconds. For a T1 BC.. that ain't that bad (but that is a bit of training). These are estimates that are not entirely accurate (word of warning).
Joshua Deakin	Posted - 2006.02.16 21:31:00 - [19] Edited by: Joshua Deakin on 16/02/2006 21:34:56 Originally by: MaxPower No. You will die. Armour tank it. Do it right and you can tank almost any spawn. You could hold a full Angel extravaganze first lvl spawn without too much difficulty, especially with your mates killing the rats. If your tanking, your better using npc-specific hardeners in relation to the damage they do. Angels do every type of damage, aprox. EM 24% EXP 34% KIN 24% THE 18%, lemme see an armour tanked dom (with faction repairer, maxed mechanic skills + eng, without implants) and trying to achieve a long lasting (infinite) active tank. I've mostly been thinking about shield tanking, even when most say "armor tank it". So my max setup could be "crap". Lets make it a half realistic setup. Use T2 when available and a faction best rep or two... Armor tanked: meds, 5cap recharge T2's Low, 2Corpus X-type Large, 2cpr (no t2 available), T2 EXP/KIN/THE Hardners Final resistances EM 60% EXP 59.5% KIN 70.75% THE 70.75%. This would give 224dps base and 560EM/498EXP/766KIN/766THE (say the corpus costs 500mil each = 1bil total) The setup has plenty cpu left but not much grid. Some cap in reserve. Shield tanked: meds, 2T2inv,2boost amp, Gist X-type XL sb lows, 6T2 Power diags, 1cpr Base 275dps (including max shield recharge 20/s) EM48.25%/EXP79.3%/KIN68.95%/58.60%THE Respectively 531EM/1328EXP/886KIN/664THE Both setups can be improved with better supporting modules, Gist b-type boost amps and dread invuld fields for another 400mil or so (the x-type about 800mil) Thermal 66.3 % Kinetic 74.72 % Explosiv 83.15 % Em 57.87 % with base 306dps boost (max, includes the shield recharge 20/s). Comparing these two setups I think the shield tank would last better, it would still have enough cpu and grid to fit 2drone links and 4heavy NOS or a mix of turrets. It could be much cheaper with B-type xl sb 450mil or so, 292dps. lows changed to 7T2 power diags. Where am I going wrong with armor tanking?
Oberon Oblique	Posted - 2006.02.16 21:53:00 - [20] Train BC to at least 4, use 2 med reps, use 4 active hardeners. If you wanna really help your buddies in the temps, fit 2x target painters and a web in your mids. And put a nos or 2 in the highs -The mind is strong and the flesh is weak, but oh the flesh...
Phoenix Jones	Posted - 2006.02.16 22:06:00 - [21] Well Joshua Deakin. Shield Tanking is usually easier (though not always more effective) than armor tanking. At the end it depends on How you want your ship to function. I once used a Thorax as a Shield tank for the hell of it. Also the modules I am speaking of don't cost some 400 million.. these are 5 mil MAX. I guess I am speaking more in realistic terms and items atm. Gren'nan Adeena. Looking at the difference between the Prophecy and a Battleship.. the only changes is the Amount of Capacitor, The Amount of Hit Points in Shield and Armor, the size of the modules that can be equipped, and number of slots. Generally the Resists are along the lines of all the other ships before it. You could probably tank a Prophecy for Level 4 missions but you'd have to probably invest in either a pair of T2 Armor Repairers.. and have some method of getting capacitor back. Honestly.. I'd have at least one of those friends of yours use a Repair Drone or a Capacitor Transporter on you (that'd probably be the best bet). It can be done but you'll need some help I assume.
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2006.02.16 22:23:00 - [22] On the resists issue, you were running into the strength of the stacking penalty in most of those. I hit thesame thing when I was testing a tripe Invul II setup. Basically, the third hardener only adds about 2% to the total resists. 2x Invul II produce a 49% percent hardening, 3x produce a 52% hardening. ____________________ I'm not an idiot; I just play one on the forums.
MaxPower	Posted - 2006.02.16 22:45:00 - [23] Originally by: Joshua Deakin Edited by: Joshua Deakin on 16/02/2006 21:34:56 Originally by: MaxPower No. You will die. Armour tank it. Do it right and you can tank almost any spawn. You could hold a full Angel extravaganze first lvl spawn without too much difficulty, especially with your mates killing the rats. If your tanking, your better using npc-specific hardeners in relation to the damage they do. Armor tanked: meds, 5cap recharge T2's Low, 2Corpus X-type Large, 2*cpr (no t2 available), T2 EXP/KIN/THE Hardners Final resistances EM 60% EXP 59.5% KIN 70.75% THE 70.75%. This would give 224dps base and 560EM/498EXP/766KIN/766THE (say the corpus costs 500mil each = 1bil total) The setup has plenty cpu left but not much grid. Some cap in reserve. Where am I going wrong with armor tanking? Thge cap relays is where it goes wrong. Your using them to get enough capo to run the two armour reps, but if you use more hardeners, then you will only need the one rep. I still carry 2 though just for safety. Try this setup for angels: Dominix setup: Highs: 2xheavy nos 5x 250mm (med) rails Mediums: 5x cap recharger 2 Lows 2 large armour reps, and the tank below. Angel Extra: Easy. 2 kin, 2 exp, 1 therm. Use T2 moids if you can afford them, faction is better. Ill edit this to post the resists for t2 when i dock, in about 5 mins. It can handle the angel extrava pretty easily. you can survive the full spawn agro at the first gate, but you will need to use both reps. \|As long as your smart with your nos, you can run the reps and hards 24/7 and guns. And obv your drones will tear everything apart Me like PIE!!!1 -Capsicum Pie ist gut ja? - Imaran No no.. cAKe > Pie
MaxPower	Posted - 2006.02.16 22:56:00 - [24] Ok, the above setup using T2 gives me: 60% em 78.8% exp 84.7% kinetic 70.75%thermal. Chucking in 1 64% kinetic and 1 64% thermal faction hardener (core x) gives: 87.7% kinetic 76.6% thermic. Pretty sexy! And even better if youve got a faction exp as well. I havent got round to buying one yet. Me like PIE!!!1 -Capsicum Pie ist gut ja? - Imaran No no.. cAKe > Pie
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2006.02.16 23:10:00 - [25] high: 6x curise II, 2x true Sansha hevay Nos med: XLarge B-Type shield booster, 37.5% shield boost amp, dread invul, 3x faction hards low: 3+ pdu IIs, dmg mods No spawn i couldnt tank in time to thin out the numbers enough to manage
Phoenix Jones	Posted - 2006.02.17 01:22:00 - [26] Originally by: Dr Fighter high: 6x curise II, 2x true Sansha hevay Nos med: XLarge B-Type shield booster, 37.5% shield boost amp, dread invul, 3x faction hards low: 3+ pdu IIs, dmg mods No spawn i couldnt tank in time to thin out the numbers enough to manage People please everybody.. this thread was about setting up a Prophecy to tank level 4's? Kinda pointless to talk about other ships.
Joshua Deakin	Posted - 2006.02.17 10:53:00 - [27] Edited by: Joshua Deakin on 17/02/2006 10:54:18 The topic starter should choose the title better then, "lvl4 tanking" is what people expect this thread to discuss. With one large corpum armor rep and 2the/kin/expT2 hardenings, the max resists per sec (rep amount 112/s): EM EXP KIN THE 0,60,78860,84730,8473 2805307337332277 total max resistance With my current SB setup (Gist B-type XL) 0,48250,7930,68950,586 56814209477103645 total max resistance My dread setup (2dread inv, 2*dread boost amps) 0,57870,83150,74720,663 698174511638724478 total The two armor rep setup cannot be run forever. Or can but then it has to give up some resistances. If we double the rep amount on the single setup (only in theory), the dps are about the same for shield and armor sustainable totals. I'm still not convinced armor tanking is must for my Dominix or vastly more efficient than shield tanking it.
Szun	Posted - 2006.02.17 11:34:00 - [28] I saw proph beening mentioned in a lvl4 discussion..well Iuse a proph for lvl3s atm BC lvl3 all4 resist skills lvl4 hullupgrade 5 with 3 t2 hardners and 1 nano II in low my resists are: 74 emp 75 explo (1 t2 hardner) 76 kinetic (1 t2 hardner) 80 thermal (1 t2 hardner) 1x 18% cpr 1x cpr II 1 AB II, 1 T2 Med rep, 1 relay i also have 4 hvy modulated beams and 2 focused medium particle streams along with a assault launcher in high slots. I would not dare to run lvl4 misson in this ....

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