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Hehulk
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Posted - 2006.02.16 12:40:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: BenYGW
I agree with HippoKing
personaly i dont want the tr3 caldari bs to use rails
altho, that would follow the merlin/moa line
something like the ferox with the same missile slots as turret slots might be nice
The problem there is that you'd either have to give it split bonuses, there by making it ok at 2 things, but not excelling at either, or giving it dual bonuses towards one thing, thereby making the choice of what to fit much easier. Of course, you could end up with something like the typhoon as well, but then it'd never get used.
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Chief Patronising Officer - Black Sea Industries
Shareholder In O'Mara Shipyards |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.02.16 12:59:00 -
[62]
this thread is NOT about caldari tier 3 BSs. its about tier 3 BSs in general. caldari are in a slightly different position to other races (both tier 2 cruisers have a BS analogue, tier 3 doesn't).
if you want to discuss caldari specifically, do it in the other thread. this is about the third BS for ALL races
sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris
yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing
Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler
Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy
Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault |
KIAPieman
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Posted - 2006.02.16 13:26:00 -
[63]
i just hope it doesnt turn into a case of "omg i must fly that ship as it has a 4tw button built in"
i just want somthing a little different. like a caldari ship with 7-8 high, 4-5 med and 6-7 low and with similar shield armour etc and favouring turrets over missile bays. just make it different for that race. do the a similar thing for the amarr etc as well and give some variation to the other races.
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BNC + KIA = The Ultimate Drunken Retard
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Chackle
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Posted - 2006.02.16 13:32:00 -
[64]
I want an Amarr missile boat 
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Diana Merris
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Posted - 2006.02.16 14:00:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Skylar Keenan
HippoKing is bang on. Most people expect the new tier 3 battleships to be more powerful than the current tier 2 ships. As Hippo pointed out the current tier 2 ships are the embodiement of the 4 races' warfare philosophy.
Many people say this but this is wrong.
The current battleships are appropriate for Gallente but not for the other races. Vexor and Domi are drone boats the Thorax and Mega are blaster boats.
Incursus -> Thorax -> Megathron -- gun boat
?frig? -> Vexor -> Dominix -- drone boat
Tristan gets lost along the way but the real question is what do you do for teir 3?
The Amarr are half right and maybe a bit more than half right if you consider the Apoc's cap bonus a tank bonus but the cap can also be used for guns too. The Punisher and Maller both have resist bonuses the Apoc doesn't. The Omen and Arma both have a RoF bonus.
?frig? -> Omen -> Arma -- RoF bonus - damage dealer
Punisher -> Maller -> Prophecy -> ?teir3? -- resist bonus - tank
The Caldari used to be half right but then all the Caldari pilots wanted missile bonuses in stead of the lame 5% range bonus and CCP gave in and gave it to them. Both the Raven and Scorp originally had a hybred range bonus.
Griffin -> Blackbird -> Scorpion -- EW
Kestral -> Caracal -> Raven -- missiles
Merlin -> Cormorant -> Moa -> Ferox -> ?teir3? -- rails
Caldari have the most clear progression of all races and clearly should have a rail boat as teir 3 BS.
The Minmater ships are both wrong; they only have one ship that is half right. The bonuses on the Tempest are the same as the Rupture but the slot layout is that of the Stabber. The Typhoon is clearly the BS version of the Bellicose (pre-RMR) with its split weapon hardpoints, large drone bay and range bonus.
?Vigil? -> Bellicose -> Typhoon -- mixed gun/missile + drones
Rifter -> Stabber -> ?Tempest? -- fast gunboat - equal mid/low
?frig? -> Rupture -> ?teir3? -- tankable gunboat? Artillery platform?
The Minmatar is the most unclear of the progressions. Even if you switched the possitions of the Stabber and Rupture it would not be better because the bonuses would still be wrong and the Typhoon would still be closer to the Bellicose.
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Kel Gunrunner
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Posted - 2006.02.16 14:19:00 -
[66]
They should do both :P put together a cool new tier 3 BS for each race, 1 that represents the latest advances etc etc, 2 years for the same 4 battleships to be top of the pile is a good run but im all for something new, and as far as race balence and variaty goes a second tier 1 bs per race would rock too, just to give something a bit different for each race.
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Orrin Danestarr
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Posted - 2006.02.16 14:33:00 -
[67]
What would be interesting is if the allied factions helped each other design the new 'tier 3' battleships, so you have bleed over of eachothers tech in differnet ways.
ie...
A caldari vessel with amarr tech giving it some efficency with laser weapons (ooo, lasers and missiles, thats gotta sting).
A minmatar vessel with railguns and missiles or kick a** drones or something.
I think you get the idea.
"Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME |
Serin Nadiir
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Posted - 2006.02.16 14:45:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Orrin Danestarr
What would be interesting is if the allied factions helped each other design the new 'tier 3' battleships, so you have bleed over of eachothers tech in differnet ways.
ie...
A caldari vessel with amarr tech giving it some efficency with laser weapons (ooo, lasers and missiles, thats gotta sting).
A minmatar vessel with railguns and missiles or kick a** drones or something.
I think you get the idea.
I think you'd have a lot of people complaining heavily. Look at Khanid ships already.
If you really want combo ships look at the pirate faction ships. These somewhat reward the extra effort of dual speccing but are way too expensive for your average combat scenario.
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Orrin Danestarr
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Posted - 2006.02.16 15:02:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Serin Nadiir
Originally by: Orrin Danestarr
What would be interesting is if the allied factions helped each other design the new 'tier 3' battleships, so you have bleed over of eachothers tech in differnet ways.
ie...
A caldari vessel with amarr tech giving it some efficency with laser weapons (ooo, lasers and missiles, thats gotta sting).
A minmatar vessel with railguns and missiles or kick a** drones or something.
I think you get the idea.
I think you'd have a lot of people complaining heavily. Look at Khanid ships already.
If you really want combo ships look at the pirate faction ships. These somewhat reward the extra effort of dual speccing but are way too expensive for your average combat scenario.
Nah, i am trying to give reasons to the existance of tier 3 than anything, after all the gal's are supposed to be helping the minmatar. Of course, the tier 3's could be based upont he new bloodlines way of thinking too. Now what was their thinking again??
"Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME |
Tinweasel
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Posted - 2006.02.16 15:15:00 -
[70]
Instead of having a t3 bs, atm i would rather have a t 1/2 bs. or basically what i envisioned battlecruisers to be before they came out.
just big enough to fit small bs weapons, and be faster/more agile than the current space slugs.
give em bonuses to just the smallest bs weaponry, like the gallente could get a +35% to dual 250's.
things around that scale would please me greatly. somewhere down the road i can see the need for something between a dread and a bs though.
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Jaketh Ivanes
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Posted - 2006.02.16 15:35:00 -
[71]
I only read the first post, but here goes.
I agree with HippoKing wholeheartely (sp?). I don't mind a 3rd BS, but keep Apoc, Megathron, Raven and Pest the top tier BS. Perhaps make the new BS a "tier 0"?
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Yarek Balear
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Posted - 2006.02.16 15:47:00 -
[72]
Don't Minamatar already have that in the typhoon ? :P
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.02.16 17:27:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes
I only read the first post, but here goes.
I agree with HippoKing wholeheartely (sp?). I don't mind a 3rd BS, but keep Apoc, Megathron, Raven and Pest the top tier BS. Perhaps make the new BS a "tier 0"?
i think it shouldn't be weaker than the tier1, i think it should be about the same, and cost about the same to make
sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris
yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing
Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler
Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy
Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault |
Sarai Atvar
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Posted - 2006.02.16 17:50:00 -
[74]
I completely agree with Hippoking. Right now, the emphasis on EVE expansion seems to be creating more high-end content for players that have been in since the beta, or at least for several years. That's all well and good, but you've got 100,000 subscribers now. Those players haven't been playing since the beta. New players see all these wonderful things, then step back and say "well, what can I use?" The answer is not much.
I believe that what we're seeing in this thread is input from a very small percentage of the EVE population, that portion that has more devoted to EVE, in terms of money and time. What we aren't getting is input from casual and new players. I think if you ask those players whether they'd like an ownmobile they can fly in 3 months or a new ship they can fly now, they'll probably go for the ship they can fly now. A lot of these players are going to come and go. There will be turnover. In order to keep these new players interested, new lower-tier and lower-level ships are needed.
After all, in the real world, there are far more models of destroyers and smaller ships than there are of aircraft carriers. Creating a new tier-1 battleship would be a step in the right direction to expand the number of smaller ships. Variety is good.
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Bl4zer: These are the Eve forums. We don't let facts get in the way of pointless speculation. |
ElCoCo
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Posted - 2006.02.16 18:02:00 -
[75]
8midslot sensor dampening gallente BS!  |
Levin Cavil
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Posted - 2006.02.16 18:04:00 -
[76]
HippoKing for Dev tbh, this is a great idea.
Agree with OP 100%
¼_¼ |
Gierling
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Posted - 2006.02.16 18:25:00 -
[77]
I generally agree.
Thes ships should not be significantly better gank or tank platforms then existing ships. They may very well end up being that becuase CCP has a lot of institutional inertia over the tiers being better then one another.
I'm hoping for a gallente ship with 8 turrets, MWD and falloff bonus myself, interesting, unique, within design philosophy and not biased towards long or short range combat.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.02.16 18:34:00 -
[78]
"the new BSs could either be copies of those, or something interesting and sexy (like one based off the tier2/3 cruiser with no BS analogue). however, to make the thing interesting and sexy would mean it was NOT part of the main shipbuilding philosophy, and if the "peak" BS, the best statted, was off this philosophy, it would be very dumb.
i'm all for interesting and sexy, and for that to make sense, they have to be tier 1 (maybe tier2).
Do others agree, or are you sharpening pitchforks and lighting torches right now?"
Looking for a match, tbh.
the problem with asking for "interesting and sexy" is basically, even those calling for it have trouble with actually coming with any sort of embodiement for that "interesting and sexy" (as evidenced in earlier discussions concerning tier.3 battleships, or ways to 'fix' current ships like Sacriledge)
Most of existing tech.1 ships is pretty flexible, and can fulfill multiple roles depending on their exact setup. The ideas for "interesting and sexy" ships on the other hand tend to revolve around 'one trick ponies' ... which is actually quite far from interesting. :/
in short, as long as the requests fail to move into specifics and remain at "i don't know what i want but make it fun" stage, i'd rather disregard them.
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Jet Collins
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Posted - 2006.02.16 18:45:00 -
[79]
Well I think it only makes since that if a tier 3 BS is introduces than it should follow the standards of Tier 1 better than tier 2 and so on. However, I don't securely think if we get a new BS that it should be a tier 3. We have multiple ships for tier 1, 2, or 3 frigs or cruisers don't we? Mainly I want a new Battle ship, something that is different.
I Also want to comment about this that was said :
The Minmater ships are both wrong; they only have one ship that is half right. The bonuses on the Tempest are the same as the Rupture but the slot layout is that of the Stabber. The Typhoon is clearly the BS version of the Bellicose (pre-RMR) with its split weapon hardpoints, large drone bay and range bonus.
?Vigil? -> Bellicose -> Typhoon -- mixed gun/missile + drones
Rifter -> Stabber -> ?Tempest? -- fast gunboat - equal mid/low
?frig? -> Rupture -> ?teir3? -- tankable gunboat? Artillery platform?
If we follow the standard for the next ship than I would have to agree with what some people have said, that if a tier 3 is introduced than the other tier ships should get fixed.
So, yes the Phoon in some respects is like a Bellicose, but its also suppose to be the fastest BS, besides the Angel BS. So in that sense it would be like the stabber. Also the phoon has the ability to armor tank which makes it some what simalar to the Rupture, ie the rupture can armor tank well and if you look at its high slots its almost 50-50 as well like the Phoon. One thing that doesnĘt make these ship in line with one another are the Bonuses and the Drone bay. So one suggestion to fix the Phoon would be to increase power grid and CPU and give it bonuses like the Rup(maybe bonuse to launcher and turret Rof) Than make this the new tier 3 BS ;). Or you can change out the fall off bonus and make it a target painting bonus and keep it a tier one BS.
As for the minmatar tier 2 ships I don't really think the Tempest is like the stabber is low is mid slot lay outs yes but its bonuses and high slots no. Tempest can be 50-50 turret launchers and the Tempest is by no means a fast ship of its class like the stabber is(also missing a mid slot if you really want it like the stabber ;) ). However I would like so see I tier. In someway s the Tempest is also like the Rup.
So what I think the minmatar are truly missing is a BS that can shield tank since that is the direction they are head, and the Phoon has the rups armor tank and the tempest has the stabbers low and mid slot lay out, this would put in like with the Bellicose. Now the Drone bay would have to be in like with the stabber or Rup since the phoon has the Bellicoses drone bay. Now for High slots I would have to say something more in line with the Stabber. The Phoon is clearly the Bellicose 50-50. The Tempest is more Rupture being able to use almost 50-50 or more turrets. If we are following suit high slots would be 2-6 or 3-5, for simplicity 3-6.
Now this is only my opinion.
Jet Collins
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.02.16 18:48:00 -
[80]
Jos,
Looking at it 6 turrets with an optimal bonus is interesting, powerful but balanced for caldari (7 turrets is pushing it with the full 50% optimal bonus imho).
8 Turrets and falloff/mwd, is also somewhat different but not unheard of and does a good amount of damage with tactical options for Gallente (Though it needs to go back down to a 125 drone bay).
Minmater is tricky, really tricky becuase of the way artillaries are balanced. 8 turrets is just ungodly. 7 turrets with ROF and a survivabilty bonus works as interesting, balanced and cool.
Amarr are also problematic becuase Lasers aren't designed to have bonuses, I'm gonna say a 6 turreted ship with a versatile slot layout with an armour bonus would be rather fitting.
Of course while we are at it give the dominix 1750 more powergrid and the Typhoon a fifth turret and 2k more powergrid. That would keep all of the existing ships relevent.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.02.16 18:58:00 -
[81]
"Minmater is tricky, really tricky becuase of the way artillaries are balanced. 8 turrets is just ungodly. 7 turrets with ROF and a survivabilty bonus works as interesting, balanced and cool."
O RLY ;s
6 turrets * 1.25 (damage) / 0.75 (rof) = 10 turrets (that's tempest)
7 turrets / 0.75 (rof) = ~9.3 turrets
8 turrets with no bonus is hardly impressive in comparison, there. Heck, even with 25% rof bonus it's hardly more than current Tempest firepower (8 / 0.75 = 10.67)
(of course, 8 turrets and something like 50% rof bonus is another story altogether, but i don't see that happening)
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God forbid
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Posted - 2006.02.16 19:03:00 -
[82]
Originally by: dalman
well, ok.
Yea, I kinda agree. Making a tier 3 with another slot will completely ruin faction battleships.
Caldari:
raven 19 slots, scorp 18 slots.
Very good ship roles for the 2 existing ships, and a 3:rd need to be a rail ship.
amarr:
apoc 19 slots, geddon 19 slots.
Pretty good roles with geddon as short range damage dealer and apoc as heavy tank. A third should be a long range ship?
minmatar:
pest 19 slots, phoon 19 slots.
Totally messed up roles. Tempest is excellent for both arty and AC, and both armor and shield tanking. Phoon completely sucks at all.
gallante:
thron 19 slots, domi 18 slots.
Totally messed up roles. Thron - supposed to be a blasterboat - is instead the #1 long range fleet battleship and useless with blasters. Domi is a close range king - but is damn slow and has a bonus to a weapon that it can't use (lacks grid to fit large hybrids).
The release of tier 3 battleships should go hand in hand with a fix to the two existing ships on gallante-minmatar.
OMg phoon does not completely suck.. You can so easly fitt it to take most or just every bs in 1vs1.. And it would just be f**king stupid to have a long range amarr ship, you can fitt the geddon and the apoc for long range And Megathron and the dominix are just owning in what they are suppose to do..
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Lygos
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Posted - 2006.02.16 20:17:00 -
[83]
I said it elsewhere, but it bears repeating. It's ok to give any BS enormous turret damage if you take away the drones.
The more something excells at one thing, the weaker it should become in all other contingencies. It's gonna be tech1 afterall, and therefore disposable.
No drones means total susceptibility to interceptors.
Gallente
-tier 1 : droner (reserve drones all classes)
-tier 2 : middle of the road (125m3 drones)
-tier 3 : Fleet turret ship w/ armor bonus(0m3 drones)
Caldari
-tier 1 : EW platform (50+25m3 drones)
-tier 2 : Missile platform (50+25m3 drones) Generalist
-tier 3 : Fleet turret ship w/ shield bonus(0m3 drones)
Minmatar
-tier 1 : Middle of the road (125+50m3 drones)
-tier 2 : General/Fleet turret ship (25+50m3 drones)
-tier 3 : Fleet turret ship w/ tracking bonus (0m3 drones)
Amarr
-tier 1 : General/Fleet turret ship (125m3 drones)
-tier 2 : Generalist turret ship (25+50m3 drones)
-tier 3 : Fleet turret ship w/ range bonus (0m3 drones) (OR Khanid droner which would be awful but maybe fair. Not like Amarr embrace diversity though.)
Eunoia: The persistent suspicion that the universe is secretly conspiring to quietly improve one's life. |
Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.02.16 20:38:00 -
[84]
Personally I'll be pretty disappointed if the Amarrian Ti3 isn't something "different". The Amarr fleet desperately needs diversity of capability and I'd expect the Empire to sit up and take notice of this. After all, we're never going to beat the Jovians if we don't try something new...
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.02.17 10:55:00 -
[85]
^^ amarr will benefit from diversity, but it will make the line-ups of all the races more interesting
sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris
yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing
Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler
Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy
Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault |
Fortior
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Posted - 2006.02.28 23:25:00 -
[86]
When it comes to new ships, I'll accept whatever CCP throws at me. If I'm given a steak dinner, who am I to complain and say I want a lobster dinner instead? 
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Ravenal
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Posted - 2006.03.01 00:02:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Ravenal on 01/03/2006 00:02:59
or change the old tier 2 bships to tier 3... blame ship software upgrades for increased skill requirements or something.
edit: and then add the "new" ones as tier 2...
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-Fate is what you make of it.
-Make your own fate using T2 items produced by The Fated
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Kyo Kuno
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Posted - 2006.03.01 00:36:00 -
[88]
Why do some Caldari ships have a mix number of turrets and missiles? Look at the Merlin, Moa, and Ferox (somewhat). Don't the Caldari engineers know that a sniper ship doesn't need missiles? The Raven even has some turret slots and not max missile slots.
I find that kind of odd. I can't use the Moa at all because I feel like I'm not doing enough damage with 4 guns and leaving the 2 other high slots as nosferatu. But as I'm sniping, missiles are just a waste of PG and CPU and cargo space. Plus compared to the Caracal the cargo hold is CRAP on the Moa. Come on, I can't hold ammo and missiles in that small thing with enough room for loot. The missiles take up a lot of the space.
Would it be wrong to turn the Merlin and Moa to all gun ship along with the Ferox? While Raven and the new tier 2 battlecruiser as all missile ship?
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Keta Min
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Posted - 2006.03.01 01:11:00 -
[89]
Originally by: j0sephine
(of course, 8 turrets and something like 50% rof bonus is another story altogether, but i don't see that happening)
why not? 10% rof per lvl with 8 turrets would be quite fitting for a minmatar tier3 BS. it would be possible to have good dps comparable to other gankships while being vulnerable due to lack of nos. also it would be enforcing the minmatar "aplhastrike-ish raiding style" combat. how fast do you think an AC or arty clip would be empty with a 50% rof bonus? well pretty damn fast. and you better have dealt with your target before that happens as the dot graph drops quite severely if you have to reload during a fight.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.01 01:15:00 -
[90]
some races have ships like the typhoon, thy need another BS... ok its only matari
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