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Why I don't want tier 3 BS

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HippoKing	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:00:00 - [1] Down on the kali features list is "Tier 3 Battleships". This seems a very popular idea, and i've met very people who don't want them. Still, i don't think i can be the only one who doesn't want a tier 3 battleship. Now, don't get me wrong, i would LOVE a 3rd battleship, but i think it should not be a tier 3. I think every race should have a second tier1. I was inspired to post this, because of an argument i wrote in a thread in ships and mods. the tier 2 BSs go like this: caldari favor missiles, they get the raven gallente favor blasters, they get the mega amarr favor tanking, they get the apoc minmatar favor huge arty volleys, they get the pest these BSs are the embodiment of their race's ideas of shipbuilding, and are the most powerful general-use t1 ships around. the new BSs could either be copies of those, or something interesting and sexy (like one based off the tier2/3 cruiser with no BS analogue). however, to make the thing interesting and sexy would mean it was NOT part of the main shipbuilding philosophy, and if the "peak" BS, the best statted, was off this philosophy, it would be very dumb. i'm all for interesting and sexy, and for that to make sense, they have to be tier 1 (maybe tier2). Do others agree, or are you sharpening pitchforks and lighting torches right now? Moved from EVE General. -Capsicum sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault
MuffinsRevenger	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:04:00 - [2] Edited by: MuffinsRevenger on 15/02/2006 22:03:51 variation is good, gief more stuff plkx ...yeah, thats it actualy, more things to play with is a good thing
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:05:00 - [3] ^^ didn't read the OP sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:08:00 - [4] well my post got deleted but my request was granted Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Sarmaul 4tw.
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:09:00 - [5] I don't see that it's that important. Level required doesn't have to indicate all-out effectiveness (although it generally does at the moment) - all it would seem to imply is that this ship is harder to fly than others. If the Tier 3s are going to be "exotica", it makes a certain amount of IC sense for them to have high skill reqs in order to fly them.
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:14:00 - [6] Originally by: HippoKing Do others agree, or are you sharpening pitchforks and lighting torches right now? soon as its razor sharp expect the unexpected the problem is that if the devs have started work on this which i assume they have then its already too late for a lot of the stuff becasue the artwork for the ship is hard to change easilly and ofcourse that dictates stuff like no.of.hardpoints for turrets. but generally speaking imo it should be tier 3 -------------------Sig----------------------- Decrease blaster CPU useage Decrease Hybrid cap useage Balance all weapon systems DO IT SOON
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:18:00 - [7] Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 15/02/2006 22:19:44 All that would need a change is the "levelRequired" variable from "3" to "1". That's not a problem. It's just a conceptual issue, really. {edit} Or rather three issues: 1) What do you think "Tier 3" entails currently? 2) Should all new ships conform to this 3) Does it matter?
dalman	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:20:00 - [8] Edited by: dalman on 15/02/2006 22:20:27 Originally by: HippoKing the tier 2 BSs go like this: caldari favor missiles, they get the raven gallente favor blasters, they get the mega amarr favor tanking, they get the apoc minmatar favor huge arty volleys, they get the pest Can anyone find something that is wrong in this quoted part? Drink up, shoot in. Let the beating begin. Distributor of pain. Your loss becomes my gain...
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:22:00 - [9] ololol mega balance steam steam lol Ok, covered that. Can we get back on topic?
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:24:00 - [10] blasters need fixing, i know to quote tux: all the cool kids stay on topic sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault

St Dragon	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:26:00 - [11] Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 15/02/2006 22:20:27 Originally by: HippoKing the tier 2 BSs go like this: caldari favor missiles, they get the raven gallente favor blasters, they get the mega amarr favor tanking, they get the apoc minmatar favor huge arty volleys, they get the pest Can anyone find something that is wrong in this quoted part? Gallente shoud have a capital letter its a name. ----------------------------------------------- "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
Trepkos	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:30:00 - [12] Meh, new versions of old ships bore me. Give me tier 3. -------- Recruitment
Sky Hunter	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:34:00 - [13] I would say that Tier 3 BS are good idea and im looking forward for those. They are gonna be like destroyer class in frig class. I.e. have more firepower, but also greatly reduced agility and increased size. I think those probably will act like heavy capital ship support vessels to provide more dmg-focus in fleet fights or structure attacks. -=-
dalman	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:36:00 - [14] well, ok. Yea, I kinda agree. Making a tier 3 with another slot will completely ruin faction battleships. Caldari: raven 19 slots, scorp 18 slots. Very good ship roles for the 2 existing ships, and a 3:rd need to be a rail ship. amarr: apoc 19 slots, geddon 19 slots. Pretty good roles with geddon as short range damage dealer and apoc as heavy tank. A third should be a long range ship? minmatar: pest 19 slots, phoon 19 slots. Totally messed up roles. Tempest is excellent for both arty and AC, and both armor and shield tanking. Phoon completely sucks at all. gallante: thron 19 slots, domi 18 slots. Totally messed up roles. Thron - supposed to be a blasterboat - is instead the #1 long range fleet battleship and useless with blasters. Domi is a close range king - but is damn slow and has a bonus to a weapon that it can't use (lacks grid to fit large hybrids). The release of tier 3 battleships should go hand in hand with a fix to the two existing ships on gallante-minmatar. Drink up, shoot in. Let the beating begin. Distributor of pain. Your loss becomes my gain...
Gabriel Karade	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:38:00 - [15] A second Tier 1 would make no sense whatsoever from the Background/RP perspective. These vessels are meant to be the Empires latest answer to their opponents top-of-the line Battleships. Look at the history for Tier 2 Gallente/Caldari Battleships for example. Megathron: 20 years old now, launched after Dominix which happens to be an old Gallente-Caldari war veteran. Raven: Prototype makes an appearance through dodgy Ishukone/Guristas dealings well after the Scorpion has been in service [short story 'Ruthless' p76 "When we set out to design her, our goal was to unseat Lai Dai's Scorpion as the states flagship...." Also note the reaction of the Caldari Navy Pilot in Torrinos when he first sees the Raven ] (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on"
Xio2	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:41:00 - [16] I agree with you Hippoking. I think the Raven should be teir 3 and the other 2 be below that. Much like how cruisers are layed out...but then again..the Moa is teir 3 and its railguns...which is sorta in contract to the Gallentes and Minmatars. Their teir 2 bs's are like their teir 3 cruisers. Amarr is the same all over so that don't really matter. -------------- now this is the way a sig should be Xio2
Xio2	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:42:00 - [17] Originally by: Gabriel Karade A second Tier 1 would make no sense whatsoever from the Background/RP perspective. These vessels are meant to be the Empires latest answer to their opponents top-of-the line Battleships. Look at the history for Tier 2 Gallente/Caldari Battleships for example. Megathron: 20 years old now, launched after Dominix which happens to be an old Gallente-Caldari war veteran. Raven: Prototype makes an appearance through dodgy Ishukone/Guristas dealings well after the Scorpion has been in service [short story 'Ruthless' p76 "When we set out to design her, our goal was to unseat Lai Dai's Scorpion as the states flagship...." Also note the reaction of the Caldari Navy Pilot in Torrinos when he first sees the Raven ] Isn't the scorp supposed to be a mysterious new vessel that little is known about except that is has great EW capability? -------------- now this is the way a sig should be Xio2
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:46:00 - [18] Originally by: Trepkos Meh, new versions of old ships bore me. Give me tier 3. now read the OP. now post. good sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:46:00 - [19] Originally by: HippoKing these BSs are the embodiment of their race's ideas of shipbuilding, and are the most powerful general-use t1 ships around. the new BSs could either be copies of those, or something interesting and sexy (like one based off the tier2/3 cruiser with no BS analogue). however, to make the thing interesting and sexy would mean it was NOT part of the main shipbuilding philosophy, and if the "peak" BS, the best statted, was off this philosophy, it would be very dumb. i'm all for interesting and sexy, and for that to make sense, they have to be tier 1 (maybe tier2). You're basing your entire argument the idea that the highest tier ship should be the most powerful one and represents the race's design philosophy to the greatest degree. This is not universally the case in tech 1 cruisers and frigates. Using the Gallente and Caldari as examples, the Tristan is a tier 3 frigate and has a 2/2 turret/launcher setup, compared to the three turret hardpoint (and better blaster boat) tier 2 Incursus. The Caldari's, as stated by you, favor missiles. However, the Kestrel is a Tier 2 frigate whereas the 2/2 turret/launcher Merlin is a tier 3 frigate. In cruiser land the Gallente ships look a bit more like their battleships. The Thorax favors hybrid weapons and the Vexor uses drones and are Tier 3 and Tier 2 respectively. The Caldari however stay the same, the Tier 2 cruiser is a missile boat and the Tier 3 cruiser is a railgun boat. Now, what I put forth is that the Tiers of ships don't have as much to do with being the pinacle of design philosophy, but instead of in game "technology". The difference between the tiers of ships is: 1. higher skill requirements 2. higher build cost 3. higher blueprint cost 4. generally more powergrid/cpu In many cases, a tier 2 or tier 1 ship is better than the tier 2 or 3 - for instance the Dominix excels in many situations in which the megathron doesn't, the Caracal deals more damage than a moa, and Incursuses can run circles around and generally own Tristans (haven't played that much with the RMR changes on this last one). In fact, looking at the flavor text the higher tier ships are newer constructions. This explains their higher build cost and higher skill requirements (consider that the cutting edge starship technologies - tech 2 - are far more expensive to build than tech 1 - at least 3 times, and require far more skill training). I guess what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter that Tier 3 is a different philosophy than Tier 2 - in fact it makes sense. The Tier 3 ships take more skill to fly (would be Battleship 3 instead of Battleship 2 or 1 by definition) and would have far higher build cost. Doesn't it make sense that an "off" ship for a race would require more skill to fly and be harder to build? Food for thought.
Tido Maliyu	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:48:00 - [20] sharpening pitchfork... -------------------------- Draximus Cane: wheat barley kill anything? are you oats of your mind? I corn belive you just said that, rice I'

Hllaxiu	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:50:00 - [21] Edited by: Hllaxiu on 15/02/2006 22:56:46 Originally by: Xio2 Originally by: Gabriel Karade A second Tier 1 would make no sense whatsoever from the Background/RP perspective. These vessels are meant to be the Empires latest answer to their opponents top-of-the line Battleships. Look at the history for Tier 2 Gallente/Caldari Battleships for example. Megathron: 20 years old now, launched after Dominix which happens to be an old Gallente-Caldari war veteran. Raven: Prototype makes an appearance through dodgy Ishukone/Guristas dealings well after the Scorpion has been in service [short story 'Ruthless' p76 "When we set out to design her, our goal was to unseat Lai Dai's Scorpion as the states flagship...." Also note the reaction of the Caldari Navy Pilot in Torrinos when he first sees the Raven ] Isn't the scorp supposed to be a mysterious new vessel that little is known about except that is has great EW capability? Ruthless states that the Raven is never than the Scorpion. Actually its pretty integral to the plot. The ingame text is kind of weird about it though: Scorpion: The first Scorpion-class battleship was launched only a couple of years ago, and those that have been built are considered to be prototypes. Little is known of its capabilities, but what has been garnered suggests that the Scorpion is crammed to the brink with sophisticated hi-tech equipment that few can match. Raven: The Raven is the powerhouse of the Caldari Navy. With its myriad launcher slots and powerful shields, few ships can rival it in strength or majesty. Doesn't say anything about the relative age of the two ships - though the Scorpion's age is mentioned and the Raven's is not. The flavor texts should probably be updated though - this game has been out for a couple of years now and Scorpions are one of the the most destroyed battleships in game.
Gabriel Karade	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:52:00 - [22] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 15/02/2006 22:51:49 Originally by: Xio2 Originally by: Gabriel Karade A second Tier 1 would make no sense whatsoever from the Background/RP perspective. These vessels are meant to be the Empires latest answer to their opponents top-of-the line Battleships. Look at the history for Tier 2 Gallente/Caldari Battleships for example. Megathron: 20 years old now, launched after Dominix which happens to be an old Gallente-Caldari war veteran. Raven: Prototype makes an appearance through dodgy Ishukone/Guristas dealings well after the Scorpion has been in service [short story 'Ruthless' p76 "When we set out to design her, our goal was to unseat Lai Dai's Scorpion as the states flagship...." Also note the reaction of the Caldari Navy Pilot in Torrinos when he first sees the Raven ] Isn't the scorp supposed to be a mysterious new vessel that little is known about except that is has great EW capability? Just go read 'Ruthless' and all will become clear. The Scorpion pre-dates the Raven. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on"
Outa Rileau	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:53:00 - [23] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Xio2 Originally by: Gabriel Karade A second Tier 1 would make no sense whatsoever from the Background/RP perspective. These vessels are meant to be the Empires latest answer to their opponents top-of-the line Battleships. Look at the history for Tier 2 Gallente/Caldari Battleships for example. Megathron: 20 years old now, launched after Dominix which happens to be an old Gallente-Caldari war veteran. Raven: Prototype makes an appearance through dodgy Ishukone/Guristas dealings well after the Scorpion has been in service [short story 'Ruthless' p76 "When we set out to design her, our goal was to unseat Lai Dai's Scorpion as the states flagship...." Also note the reaction of the Caldari Navy Pilot in Torrinos when he first sees the Raven ] Isn't the scorp supposed to be a mysterious new vessel that little is known about except that is has great EW capability? Ruthless states that the Raven is never than the Scorpion. Actually its pretty integral to the plot. The ingame text is kind of weird about it though: Scorpion: The first Scorpion-class battleship was launched only a couple of years ago, and those that have been built are considered to be prototypes. Little is known of its capabilities, but what has been garnered suggests that the Scorpion is crammed to the brink with sophisticated hi-tech equipment that few can match. Raven: The Raven is the powerhouse of the Caldari Navy. With its myriad launcher slots and powerful shields, few ships can rival it in strength or majesty. Doesn't say anything about the relative age of the two ships - though the Scorpion's age is mentioned and the Raven's is not. The flavor texts should probably be updated though - this game has been out for a couple of years now and Scorpions are of the the most destroyed battleships in game. not with ew >.<
Esurnir	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:55:00 - [24] The mysterious part of the scorp is that there is a mystery if or if not it's one of a gurista leader who created the design.
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:56:00 - [25] Originally by: Outa Rileau not with ew >.< Er, EW is why scorpions get destroyed. They're always called primary target.
Outa Rileau	Posted - 2006.02.15 22:58:00 - [26] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Outa Rileau not with ew >.< Er, EW is why scorpions get destroyed. They're always called primary target. Ever tried a 1on1 vs a scorp? 0.o Thats where they are really good... or small group engagements... fleet battles, you'll be popped in 3 secs
Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol	Posted - 2006.02.15 23:01:00 - [27] By the looks of it, Caldari are the only race that a Tier 3 would make sense for - rail boat. Seems like the rest are gonna be some lame ass version of an existing ship but with more turrets/slots, i hope the devs have something cool in mind. --------------------------------------------- <Make ECM Burst useful> ECM Burst Idea!
Velsharoon	Posted - 2006.02.15 23:12:00 - [28] tier 3 BS for gallente = mega with more cpu will be able to fit properly, and will probabaly be just as expensive as a mega with all the faction stuff you need
dalman	Posted - 2006.02.15 23:14:00 - [29] Originally by: Outa Rileau Ever tried a 1on1 vs a scorp? 0.o Thats where they are really good... or small group engagements... fleet battles, you'll be popped in 3 secs Yes, I've tried 1on1 against many scorps. None of them have been anywhere near killing me. Most of them have died. And that goes with me flying all 4 of the battleships I can fly (raven, scorpion, megathron, dominix). Try again. Drink up, shoot in. Let the beating begin. Distributor of pain. Your loss becomes my gain...
Skylar Keenan	Posted - 2006.02.15 23:31:00 - [30] HippoKing is bang on. Most people expect the new tier 3 battleships to be more powerful than the current tier 2 ships. As Hippo pointed out the current tier 2 ships are the embodiement of the 4 races' warfare philosophy. Call them whatever you want, tier 1,2 or 3, but please make the new ships different, not just more powerful. Caldari rail ship of WTFPWNAGE with enough grid to put on 8 425mm II rails and 7 midslots to shield tank - that ain't gonna float. So to sum up - Hippo for president -----------------------------------------------



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gallente favor blasters, they get the mega

gallente favor blasters, they get the mega