Probably it is too early to see a change in these rankings, but still, following is the
current stats copied from eve kill. ROKH is the sole representative here.

RankShipsKills

---

1Drake79930
2Hurricane45597
3Abaddon31775
4Tengu22205
5Maelstrom18365
6Tornado16221
7Armageddon14872
8Scimitar11504
9Tempest10319
10Sabre9789
11Cynabal9144
12Huginn8606
13Thrasher8188
14Loki7231
15Rapier7170
16Lachesis7156
17Vagabond7141
18Rokh7135
19Zealot7112
20Rifter7106

RankWeaponsKills

---

1Heavy Missile Launcher II33892
2425mm AutoCannon II13747
31400mm Howitzer Artillery II9400
4Mega Pulse Laser II8748
5200mm AutoCannon II7454
6720mm Howitzer Artillery II6344
7220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II5996
8125mm Gatling AutoCannon II5341
9150mm Light AutoCannon II5245
10800mm Repeating Artillery II5046
11Heavy Pulse Laser II4640
12425mm Railgun II2587
13Heavy Neutron Blaster II2388
14Light Neutron Blaster II 2143
15'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I 2090
16'Arbalest' Siege Missile Launcher 2000
17280mm Howitzer Artillery II1713
18Dual 180mm AutoCannon II1662
19Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I1598
20Neutron Blaster Cannon II1594

Just wanted to report that railguns are much improved by the recent changes. Cormorant is pretty awesome now

The only thing I could suggest would be to reduce the rate of fire and increase damage, to make them better for sniping, and also to reduce server load (the same as what was done for projectiles a while back).

Blasters are still kinda meh; I wonder if a 100% optimal range increase would help?

It would be a huge mistake to increase the damage on blasters and railguns...
But we do still need more adjustments on ships, railguns and ammunition.

If you need to boost hybrids further you need to do it through the ships supposed to use them... People are already starting to think about using hybrids in all aspects of Eve. It will ofcourse take a long time for the players to adjust skillwise and as such it will be natural to continue see lots of minmatar ships and autocannons for a long time (Minmatar has been I-win for a serious long time)

Also I see no value in your argumentation - just lol...

It is a little bit disapointing to have no reply from CCP.
Overall CCP communication is not very professional. Remember how this whole thread started? The thread opener was away for 2 weeks and nobody knew, people wondered whats going on...
I don't care anymore if they will do more changes or not but I would like to get an answer.
Being ignored is not a nice thing and I wonder if this company really deserves to get my money???

I'm willing to suggest you stop iterating on hybrids for a while to address other issues - cynoes, passive tank (too good for 0 isk investement), rigs and so on. Oh, and fix tracking enhancers already.

You can not 'have it done' without addressing core issues. And if one keeps boosting hybrids mindlessly they will easily become OP after he fixes:

- TE's
- EHP values provided by shield extenders and plates; also base EHP values
- shield extenders not imposing speed/mass penalty (which is just stupid and results in overtanked ship being as fast and agile as active tanked one - wtf)
- base range of heavy missiles (80 km before any rigs - wtf)

That's why I say we'd better start doing small steps in many directions rather than try achieving a mythical balance between bare weapons.

-EHP. I'd leave as is. It seems a lot until you fly in a fleet, and then it's not enough to prevent you being 1-volleyed. It'll never be possible to alter it to be able to suit all styles of play from solo to large fleet, so if active tanks get a bit of a tweak (where it currently makes no sense with certain ship bonuses) we have tanking for both ends of the spectrum that actually works well enough.

-shield extenders shouldn't impose mass? why not?
--For 'realism': Aren't they generated by massive machines you install?(Check armour repairers, armour repair rigs, etc which don't add any hp at all) Why should adding mass even slow you down in space? It just reduces acceleration, not achievable velocities.
--For game play: Because it makes good sense in trying to balance the current trend for shield buffers that leave your speed unaffected and skew game play heavily away from armour being viable at the same type of game style.

There's nothing wrong with current values active tanks provide. Boosting these values will just ruin the joy of proper PvP.

There's nothing with admitting the necessity of shield extenders to slow ship down. Active tanks need a clear advantage to become viable and the only logical advantage is mobility. Since very few will justify giving repairers a speed bonus, we just have to introduce speed penalty for passive tank mods.

That's why I'm saying buffer tanking is way too good for its cost (there's none actually) and its drawbacks (very insignificant). Fix buffer and active tanking will turn out much more viable.

Matari speed is a whole another story.

I agree it is weird a 1600mm plate cost 1/5th of a Large Armor Repairer, however I find it hard to see how cruisers and battlecruisers have too many hitpoints when most of them crumble in a very short time under fire from just 1-3 similar fitted enemies. At least pilots now have enough survivability to react on his surroundings. Something active repairing have trouble with atm. Currently buffertanks offer a valid game-play enjoyed by all players. Buffertanks are not overpowered because active reps are worse, it's Active tanks that need love because they don't offer the same enjoyable game-play like buffertanks (except with faction mods, drugs and implants in specific bonused ships)

Reducing the hitpoints given by extenders and plates will dramatically reduce the living time of most ships even if they already die fast in a typical engagement effectively reversing what CCP have accomplished with recent HP boosts.
Increasing fitting requirements would make people fit smaller plates which makes sense with their names, but then you will have the same problem as above with ships unable to stay alive for more than a brief amount of time.

Yes, it's stupid that we use medium extenders on frigates, large extenders on cruisers and don't have XL extenders for battleships, but less hitpoints or bigger fitting requirements will ruin the working buffer-gameplay we have now instead of bringing active reps up to date.

Obviously I would love for shield extenders to be renamed properly and maybe removing micro extenders in return for implementing an XL extender for battleships. Plates could also easily be without 50mm and 100mm plates and make good use of 3200mm plates.

Again, with the amount of dps ships have today I believe these solid changes will help the game much more than just nerfing plates and extenders

Pinky

Not only stealthy loners, it promotes small-scale PvP in general. Being unable to kill anything before a crapload of reinforcements arrives is the reason why it's so safe to blob up and so unreasonable to fly in small numbers.

I disagree with this. Faction cruisers and HACS are certainly included in my statement and are very relevant.

Again, I disagree. Please go test your theory on an Armageddon. Don't forget a MWD and heavy cap booster for those hungry lasers.

It hits them the hardest because lasers have, far and away, the highest fitting requirements of any weapons system. Also, Amarr usually need to fit cap boosters - another high powergrid module, more then any other race.

Also, I didn't mean to come across like I was saying Amarr are underpowered and in need of a buff. I think we're doing ok, and I love my Amarr ships. I was just trying to illustrate some of the problems with increasing fitting cost on some modules instead of balancing the ships that make fitting too easy.

Might be out of topic, but after a few anoying fights against serpentis, i realized that dampeners arent just to shut down target capabilty and shoot something without getting shooted, its also a good tactic to force the enemy to enter into blaster range

The point its you can rush into close range, so blaster can actually work, without losing half of your hp inthe way when you are being kited. I know dampeners are actually useless since you need a pair in a ship with bonuses for it to get a good result and you still exposed vs multiple targets. But it fit gallente doctrine someway...

Pd: sry for the bad english, its 4:30am here and im at work QQ

I know it doesnt work,im trying to trow some ideas of how make blasters usable without just asking for speed, range and basicly just changing the whole deal to turn blasters into ACs and gallente ships into speed devils.

why would you want 2 races to be the same, fly winmatar and win
rock papers and scisors is part of the design of the game, still in your hands to make decisions to help you win against your counter, and is not a 1vs1 game

1Drake167782
2Maelstrom146771
3Hurricane115519
4Abaddon68304
5Tengu51712
6Tornado40193
7Tempest32236
8Scimitar32090
9Armageddon31982
10Sabre26232
11Hound24679
12Cynabal22131
13Huginn21608
14Vagabond18972
15Thrasher18746
16Rapier18163
17Rifter17090
18Loki16740
19Zealot16144
20Oracle16093


1Heavy Missile Launcher II70717
21400mm Howitzer Artillery II46919
3425mm AutoCannon II36688
4Mega Pulse Laser II21519
5200mm AutoCannon II19261
6720mm Howitzer Artillery II18047
7220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II16830
8150mm Light AutoCannon II15065
91400mm Gallium Cannon14855
101400mm Prototype Siege Cannon13304
11125mm Gatling AutoCannon II12552
12800mm Repeating Artillery II11783
13Heavy Pulse Laser II11507
14'Arbalest' Siege Missile Launcher7557
15'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I5950
16Heavy Neutron Blaster II5754
17425mm Railgun II5397
18Light Neutron Blaster II5394
191400mm 'Scout' Artillery I5128
20'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I4691

Latest figures. The novelty rokh has disappeared as expected and not a single hybrid using ship appears on the top 20. If anything, the hybrid using ships are going backwards in terms of representation. On the weapons list the total combined presence of rails and blasters amounts to a pathetic 4.7%.

What the Talos didn't make the top 20?!? What a shocking surprise.... even though CCP promised not to let the ship suck compared to its brothers.... but it sucks. On EFT there are a few fits that seem competitive, but in the game its basically even more of a "flag shp" example of what's wrong with Gallente Boats than the Diemost which I thought would be hard to achieve.

i dunno the talos is a mean belt ratter... i mean thats the ships role right? to kill asteroid rats?.

I'm no fan of bigger = better philosophy since the time of the interceptor introduction. The more we get to that stage the more viable blob warefare gets. We already had this exact gameplay.

The current game mechanics with tracking etc was introduced in 2004 when the megathron was the king of the hill in removing small ships. It wasn't neewb friendly. It was a plain pain in the ass.


Did you ever got removed from game with a hughe alpha strike? That was eve in the beginning as a new pilot. The bigger weapon won. I can remember the so called "speed ravens" removing entire squads from screen. Megathrons and Apocalypse at empire gates removing pilots from 200 km range with a single shot....... Sweet memories, when i was young :)

Bigger should never been better in a game of possibilities...
Using tactics and strategy to counter bigger stuff should be perfectly viable

So your point is a Supercarrier should be able to kill each none capital ship no matter of size and a titan should be able to DD everythin in space?

b)
If my efficiency should reflect my isk cost i demand my sabre to be able to kill each tier 1 battleship and each bc without any mercy and much effort. A Hurricane is cheaper than a sabre :p


Fitted sabre 115 mio isk.
Fitted dominic 83 mio isk.
Fitted daredevil more than my sabre!

I'm at a point where i would like to request a thread lock :p

Current 25% is applied to optimal and falloff. Why wouldn't 40% increase apply to both as well?

It'll push Heavy Nuetron blaster opt+fallof range (with three TE2's) past the magic 24 km warp disruptor II range. That's all I ask for.

Rails should deal Alpha. Thats what they are there for. DPS should be Artilery/Autocannons/Blasters. Thats pretty much how you balance the things and make them viable.

yeah if game was new ill say the same but imho too late for that change

That Hybrids will be overpowered 2017?

I have a crazy idea...

...Maybe Hybrid platforms could do with a 5 to 25% (role bonus, per level of cruiser required) reduction to fitting requirements to the weapons they are supposed to use, like caldari get that bonus applied only to railguns, whiel gallente get that bonus applied only to blasters? :)

They lowered all hybrid weapon's requirements yes. But I'm not talking that, but rather, about giving Gallente a Blaster-specific bonus that also works as a railgun-specific penalty (or lack of bonus) while giving caldari a railgun-specific bonus that doest' apply to blasters. In orde to further breach the gap and reward people who want to fy Blasters/Railguns.

But its just an idea. ;)

Hey this was a nice german joke.
I can not understand how you could misunderstand it! :)

The joke was that it will take 5 years with half baked changes and then overnight a Dev decides to finally fix Blasters. In my scenario he gives them a sort of special Hybrid X-Ray 2000 (produced by Binford who has recently started to support Gallente) that shots like a corona without the need to lock a target so you can melt the electronic of every enemy ship on the GRID. To balance it he decides to reduce the Signature Strengh with 5% (or maybe 7.5%, he is not sure and doesn't want to make dramatic changes) so you will lock a bit slower if you decide to do something other to your target instead of just melt it :)
After the first 50000 Minmatar winers they will propably also reduce Gallente agility slightly while Minmatar Pilots complaining that this will not change anything. In the meantime Amarr just decides to use Hybrids on a Abandon and Caldari scraps all missle boats and hopes that X-Ray 2000 will be introduced to Railguns in the next sommer update :P

Sidenote: The Caldari could also use Blasters on their Hybrid plattforms but they decided that they are too proud to use Gallente crap! Unfortunately Minmatar doesn't find any X-Ray 2000 on their scrap yard so they decide to salvage the old Caldari missles boats and combine them with Projektiles, maybe this could help vs X-Ray 2000? We will find out soon, approx 2019!

Sentry drone ships received a Master Almost-Ninja Buff in Crucible. It's called the Reconnect to lost drone -key shortcut.

I've had great success with abandon/reconnects, it allows new kind of tactics, mixing sentry and conventional drones.

Imaginative more you must be if succeed you want, mhrmrm, young Jedi

Another week or so gone, new figures;

1Maelstrom57868
2Drake42169
3Hurricane34209
4Tengu25683
5Abaddon23004
6Tornado14330
7Tempest11939
8Scimitar10217
9Sabre8760
10Armageddon7463
11Zealot6618
12Huginn6565
13Cynabal6272
14Manticore6188
15Scorpion6167
16Hound6041
17Rapier5998
18Vagabond5694
19Nyx5659
20Oracle5401


1Heavy Missile Launcher II23039
21400mm Howitzer Artillery II15437
3425mm AutoCannon II11905
4Mega Pulse Laser II9333
5200mm AutoCannon II6178
6220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II5194
7150mm Light AutoCannon II5142
8125mm Gatling AutoCannon II4900
9720mm Howitzer Artillery II4604
10800mm Repeating Artillery II4417
11Heavy Pulse Laser II3508
121400mm Gallium Cannon3371
13'Arbalest' Siege Missile Launcher3283
141400mm Prototype Siege Cannon3101
15425mm Railgun II1866
16Light Neutron Blaster II1799
17Citadel Torpedo Launcher I1653
18Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I1563
19Neutron Blaster Cannon II1552
20Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I1527

No hybrid using ships, 5.9% of weapons are hybrids. Still dreadful.

Just going to state, you can't determine if something is balanced based on popularity. People are already trained for Maelstroms, Baddons, and Drakes, and the blobfests aren't going to change fleet doctrine unless its to something more powerful.

Really?
Actually show me any decent rails fleet fit that can dish 10k alpha strikes because this never happened before the changes with implants/boosters whatever, doesn't happen after changes blahblahblah and will certainly not happen at the end of this new year.

I've read somewhere maxed laser pilots can dish 20k volleys with faction ships -Nightmare
Price tag vs Males is not the same for sure but it could be interesting to see what a full fleet of those could do (r+ñpe face everyone in the system probably)

Just give me the ability to SD in about 10sec and do massive dmg at 15km around my ship explosion function of the quality/quantity ammo left in the cargo at the moment of that explosion.



Blob exterminated for ever.



If you want to deal with this blob issue it's not by introducing tools like Tier 3 BC's that you are going to avoid those or change something, it's by giving the tools to players. ATM there's none other than "disconnect" and go play WT's or BF3 (personally don't play those but know a lot of people doing it)

EDIT: even on SISI where ships cost 100isk you don't see that much gallente/calamari hybrid stuff or just one trying here, another trying there and 1h latter it's all drakes/vagas/cynas/drams/maelstroms/machariels/tornados/oracles and OC capitals/super cakes

of topic yay
I love how in the hybrid weapon thread people are talking about exploding ships that do damage in a 15 km radius. This would be epic at making blaster boats way more viable.

Oh wait most blaster boats will be within this range when they kill stuff..... lol

Oh and could you imagine all the ships self destructing on the Jita undock. CCP you have to implement this freekin awesome well thoughtout idea.............

Are Devs still paying attention to this?

I personally think the main problem with blasters is that they aren't face **** enough up close. I don't believe they need to be turned into falloff acs. A lot of people will cry at this but to me it makes sense that a gallente ship should be able to be a glass cannon. Get in close and rip them apart before they stand a chance to rip yourself apart. This happens to a certain extent but not to the extent it should, ac's are still as powerful as blasters up close. AC's should still be the medium range powerhouse. But blasters should make people FEAR you getting at 0 to them. Not just be a little scared until they put that neut on you.

There's the vindi, but only if you don't mind risking a 1.5bil ship...


(then again it is half minmatar...)

People who think the "Top 20" list is meaningful make me happy. If it were not for the hordes of people who fail to take an applied statistics course during thier lifetimes, I would not have a job irl.

ty :hugs:

Statistics and people masturbating their brains with are useless to humanity, they're the first ones to hide underground when thing go wrong, they can barely survive if their car engine is broken in the middle of no where ...

Now, people using those with good intentions and giving humanity tools to become better, those actually have some nobel prices. Everything else is just cave people trying to dominate their neighbor with words a new V12 and tons of crap their future grave doesn't care at all...neither I.

If only painful/slow deadly hills were intelligent and could choose their target...I'd like to be the one that liquefies their victim from the inside in a horrible pain

Halala...

You know, after all these pages the I believe the biggest problem with rails and blasters stems from CCP's initial decision to give the same weapon systems to 2 different races with different bonus regimes. If you increase range to make gal work, for example, then the Cal ships become too powerful; Change the tracking and the reverse happens with Gal becoming too powerful. Doesn't matter what you change, one side or the other will be too strong or too weak accordingly. I think that CCP would have to fundamentally break this link between the weapons and the 2 races bonus structure or make both the same to allow balancing to be truly effective, but I honestly can't see that happen. I'm becoming resigned to treating rails as useless and blasters as niche.

You can't compare blasters without any TE to Hellcat Abaddons that use 2 TCs. With 2 TCs, Neutron Megas loaded with null have a range of 15+26. At 30km, that means they're putting down 806 dps with 2 mag stabs. That's way more DPS then a Hellcat at that range, with superior tracking and less cap issues, and that's with Tranquility's current 1.25 null range mod. With the 1.4 range mod, it will be much more. Blaster cannons in the 30km range will be deadly with the 1.4 range mod.

Thats the reason why I say they need to fix small, medium and large seperately.
If they only do overall changes to tracking or ammo there will always be the problem that for example:
1. Increase range until medium hybrids are fine and small hybrids will be too strong.
2. Decrease range until small are fine but then mediums will be crap again and a Cane will Kite every Gal Cruiser easily without any chance for the Gal to hit the Cane...
3. Now if large have too much range lets decrease Ammo range again and crap mediums even more?

Why not look at small, fix them, then look at medium, fix them and then take a look at large?

What CPP does seems like put a randomly choosen number and change it. First tracking, then cap usage, then change of ammo size, then Null and Void and whats next? Ammo storage or Falloff? Doesn't matter becouse if you fix one you will screw the other...

Fix them seperately together with the hulls.

Not even close to how appalling are clueless tards who, while even unable to post with their mains (ashamed of themselves, apparently), dare to make arrogant demands which are bound to make hybrids no less than OP.

CCP's doing just fine in terms of sheer hybrid stats.

Not all pvp involves 0.0 warfare tactics of fielding 500 bs, 400 hacs, and 200 randoms on a field at once.

I can hyrbrid fit an omen and get more dps out of it than pulse.

What. The. ****. I think you re-balanced a little too much...

http://killboard.the-godfathers.com/index.php/kill_detail/180828/

Nice to see someone decided to try a thorax fleet. We engaged at zero on a gate, we were all arty/beam fit. Sad thing isn't the outcome, which was a bit lopsided, but that only half of these guys even considered it worth fitting hybrids to their ships. The rest felt that projectiles would obviously be better - and if that doesn't say something about the state of hybrids then nothing does

What I find even more convincing is the sheer amount of tornados on the left side....

Yea, I need about half a second to figure out why....

Heres my 2isk...

When I can fit an omen with blasters and get more dps than pulse...

There is a balancing issue.

How much time is left till February? ;)

Edit: I guess we will take EVE time zone, right? OK then 27 minutes to go. I'm sooo excited what might come up the next few minutes! :)

2. Maybe he can travel back in time and will post soon in January 2012!

R.I.P. Gallente