Nope, if anything move the Naga completely to hybrids and fix them. Caldari have quite enough missile ships, we don't need any more. What we need is a competitive gun platform. I'm quite tired of getting pidgeon - holed to "oh look yet another Pve ship".

Because there's no point in a missile BC with battleship missiles? It's much more likely for the hybrids to be fixed than for torpedoes (or cruise missiles) to be fixed. Plus, missiles are useless or less useful in most pvp scenarios than guns, especially when "long range" is involved. Just like the raven mostly isn't used (and hasn't been used) in pvp, that would be the end for a missile based Naga. Now, if CCP is willing to give the Naga full bonuses for both hybrids and missiles, then good! I'm all for it. But given the choice, hybrid is the way to go.

Sorry but training time should never be taken in account when comparing ships, if not relative to one another. You always have the choice to cross train. I'm caldari, but that doesn't mean I fly only Caldari. As a matter of fact right now I can fly the Tornado better than an hybrid Naga since I'm training Large Autocannon Spec to 5, while large blasters are still at 4. Which means that I'm not asking what I'm asking "for me", since I can already fly what will probably be the best tier 3 BC anyway.

Look, I wouldn't mind an effective, mass pvp-usable missile battleship. Fact is, we're not going to get it anytime soon, if ever. Which saddens me, honestly. But, as they say, strike while the iron is hot: hybrids are on the table, might as well fix them and get a working Naga than getting a Siege Naga and hoping for it to become useful sometime in the far future. And again, if CCP lets the naga have 4 bonuses, for hybrids and siege as well, then GOOD! but I find it quite unlikely given the history of ship balancing.

About the 5% resistences bonus, that was just an example, it just popped up in my head, as anything else could've done.

So you basicly say you don't want to make the Naga overpowered in the exact same way in which the tornado is overpowered, which you consider fine....

I guess you should watch that video of a tornado killing drones and an interceptor. Even with double webs, that is really ****** up.

Also I thought I'd mention that the Oracle and Tornado seem pretty spot-on in terms of ship handling / flying experience-- amazing offensive capabilities, easily wrecked if pilot error occurs. Brilliant. The only thing I wonder about is whether or not they'll be too cheap, since they fly like they cost a lot more than ~45m :3

Meh I hate to see fantastic art and magnificent models wasted on a niche role, whose practical warfare use is questionable.

I do agree we need action so we can test this in able time for the launch, however I rather want well thought changes giving us the required time to test and give feedback. Stats changing every other day on test server will be difficult reflecting on.

Also I believe it's the same people being resposible for all the balances so lets give them a break for at least 10-15 minutes

Pinky

EDIT: What is the speed with those 100mn ABs and how do they handle/react with agility and acceleration?

Idea!

ROLE- Heavy Destroyer- Tier3 Battlecruiser- Crazy DPS and Glass Tank


First decide whether the role of this ship should be long range or short range, whichever will go for all 4 races as all races have a long and short range weapon alternative.-

>Long Range gets Uber bonus/s for Weapon Range, thats it! (let them shoot from +/- 150km)

>Short Range gets Uber bonus/s for Ship Speed, thats it! (let them go +/- 1500m/s)

Heavy Destroyers should NOT be able to effectively hit anything smaller than a standard BC or be able to Solo PvP and must all be penalized to reflect this.

They can easily be destroyed by small ships. I'd go as far as saying that they should have standard BC signature but Cruiser size Tank.

H/M/L
Armor Tank Race Layout- 8/2/6
Shield Tank Race Layout- 8/6/2

Ship Attributes should reflect race weapons, ie: Extra cap for cap munching weapons or extra m/3 for cargohold for those weapons that use bulky ammo!


The fact is that most pilots won't have a use for these ships, its a shame but then these Ships would all have to have an 8/6/6 layout and put alot of other ships out of commision.

Please don't try to compare these to any other ships, they have a role and are not standard!

Thats the only answer I can see without making them just another regular PvP ship, we have enough of them already!

Thx

Love how this is being avoided. Do you really think CCP will add a ship that will/can replace others?

Balancing isn't just the ships but also the overall ingame effects!

Just like 2 mids is fail on any pvp ship, less than 4 low is fail on any dps and speed ship bigger than a cruiser.



3 lows on the rook is really bad and makes it a nightmare to fit, 4 lows on the sleipnir is really bad when you want to nano it (and it's fun to see that the nighthawk has a better slot layout mid/low wise... probably why it has such a gimped fitting though), 3 lows on a dual weapon ship like the Huginn/Lachesis is ridiculous when you want to do some dps...




So, 3 lows on the Naga which, out of all four t3 BCs, is the slowest, and the one that need to be the closest to apply some real dps (Talos is good enough with rails, Tornado and Oracle with scorch and barrage and TC/TE can hit further than Naga) makes it impossible to nano properly while applying some real damage. And if you don't nano it, you get caught. And because it has the biggest sig of the bunch, most BS will easily track it and melt it.
And don't even think of tracking disruptor, you can't fit them because of the aweful CPU.

Wouldn't a heavy destroyer be VERY GOOD at killing things smaller than it'self? I mean, isn't that what destroyers are for?

Here is the latest update on these ships:

NAGA

• Missile role removed, now focuses as a hybrid platform
• 10% Torpedo velocity per level swapped for 5% to Large Hybrid Turret damage per level

As pointed out, even with the velocity bonus, torpedoes have a too short of a range to be useful in practical situation with the Naga since it has the lowest mobility of all tier 3 battlecruisers and quite poor defensive options. Aligning this ship into a missile platform would have required a long range option as well, meaning the use of cruise missiles, which created a certain number of issues.

Specializing for a hybrid long range platform made more sense with the Naga role, which is why the damage bonus was appealing, especially when combined with CCP Tallest changes; it also makes more sense regarding Caldari tier philosophy, where highest tech 1 tiers usually are hybrid platforms (Merlin, Moa, Rokh).

Oh nice changes Ytterbium, looks like you at ccp read the threads after all.

For those who qq about no more missiles , torp fitted was useless anyway or would be needed like +3 bonuses just to make them viable.
Oh and saying that missile users ****** up is nonsense, there is still the drake or raven for that.

You have the Drake which does the job of the Naga with a tank. What are you smoking?

Have you even tried to use a torp Naga? It's worthless because of the range.

DRAKE.
TENGU
GOLEM
RAVEN
ROOK
SCORPION
WIDOW
HAWK
HOOKBILL
GILA
CARACAL
CERB

Get over yourself.

Dedicated hybrid ships:

Rokh
Moa
Eagle

A torp Naga is WORTHLESS. It can't do anything in PvP and would be stupid in PvE. Christ have you even tried flying one?

Bonuses thrown in for ***** & giggles don't count:


Vulture - command ship not rail DPS platform
Ferox - used as missile platform (split system)
Falcon - rails used for km whoring, not DPS... EW ship
Cormorant - lol
Harpy - more useful with blasters, Taranis can take it down.
Raptor - lol x 2 but I'll give you that
Bantam - wtf
Merlin - split
Daredevil - blaster bonused
Vigilant - blaster bonused
Vindi - blaster bonused


a cruise platform on the Naga? yeah, um...

just add torpedo and cruise missile bonuses and fitting bonuses and let it be a multi boat.. hybrid and missiles.. problem solved ^^

Cruise naga would have high DPS with cruise and able to hit smaller ships even up close because there's no issue with tracking. These Tier 3 ships have 2 weaknesses...


1) no tank and vulnerability to alpha.
2) smaller ships can get in underneath the guns

you rule out number 2.

They have the Drake.

Idiot. The Talos is armor tanked, the Naga is shield tanked. They have separate bonuses and are flown completely separately. You know nothing about hybrids if you think they are close just because they share the same ammunition.

where is this petition?

stop acting like little childs... the stupidity is strong in the last 3 pages... especially if carebears like you, who want to make missions with the new bc's, coming here and say: "i dont get a shiny new toy this winter, i demand equality".....



the naga stays with hybrids and thats it!


learn hybrids or GTFO & HFTU

I am Caldari, most skills in missiles, but torpeda Naga is unusable ship, calm down, do no spam chats, thanks!

No, it's nothing to do with the torp velocity.

The problem was the explosion radius of 450 m and the explosion velocity of ~108 m/s, requiring usage of a painter and web to apply good damage to its tier 3 counterparts, and the lack of a torp damage bonus which meant that it has less raw damage than any other tier 3 BC.

On the proper BS scale, torps are basically okay, because they work well against fat, slow BS bricks. But these tier 3 BCs are intended to be used more as skirmish platforms - if they go head to head with a BS then they'll just die horribly. As such, torpedos are a terrible weapon for the Naga - a torp Naga can't survive a close-range engagement against a BS, and it can't apply much torp DPS to smaller targets.

Against fellow t3 BCs, the torp Naga was hopeless. It had the lowest raw DPS of any, lacking a torp damage bonus. It needed to get into web range to apply that poor DPS, which it found difficult being the slowest. It needed at least one painter to apply its poor raw DPS too. The result was a slow ship that was only effective inside web range and had relatively poor DPS even when it somehow managed to apply its EFT maximum.

It was a nonsense, a pointless ship, one utterly outclassed by every other t3 BC at close range and at long range. It made the Talos look good, that's how bad it was. It was also terrible at PVE, for the same reasons of poor application of damage against elite frigates and cruisers. I am astonished that there is so much misinformed, clueless carebear whinging - it sounds like that idiotic missile whine thread after the QR missile boost, dozens of pages full of carebears whinging that they'd had to change their L4 fit, unable to comprehend that missile PVP had just been massively boosted.

The rail Naga has a substantial DPS advantage over every other t3 BC beyond ~80 km. It is a useful ship that will be flown; the torp Naga was a pointless embarrassment.

Oh, so now we're on to a new plea from you after someone had to hold your hand and explain barney style everything we've been telling you for pages already?

Yes, you do. It's called a Golem.

4 launchers + 100% bonus to cruise and torp damage + 10% bonus to cruise and torp velocity AND a 7.5 bonus to TP effectiveness.


It is YOUR FAULT for only training half the skill requirements for caldari ships. Quit being a spoiled ***** and whine somewhere else.

Get out.

.



All in all, you have no changed what you want 3 times. You have no idea what would be needed to make this a balanced and viable missile boat. I'd really suggest you stop and salvage some dignity.

Laugh all you want, but it has been presented as a viable and capable alternative fitting for the ship; it is far faster than the Drake with a much smaller signature radius, while having the same range and dealing 14 percent more damage than the Drake in explosive, thermal, and EM damage profiles while the Drake only deals 9 percent more damage in the kinetic profile: allaround, better damage and maneuverability than the Drake, proving itself a very capable addition to the popular Drake and Nano-Drake fleets.

That would be interesting, but it would be weird; it is possible, even viable, to put medium guns on the other new 3TBC though. I would be happier than I am now, but there was really something special about having a Torpedo Drake to me. It's something I have been specifically looking forward to since the new BC were announced, and to not have it now seems a crying shame to me.

Plus: HML were actually harder to fit than Siege launchers were with the bonuses. So there is also that.

I find it sad that the typical Gallente pilot, with zero Caldari ship command skills, can fit and fly a naga faster than the typical Caldari pilot.

T1 ships can't have a sh*t ton bonuses.

Why can't I have falloff bonus + AC ROF bonus + Siege launcher ROF bonus + drone hitpoints/damage bonus on my Typhoon ? I mean, it uses projectiles, it uses missile launchers, it uses heavy/sentries drones. Then why can't I have 4 bonuses ?

Because it's a T1 ship, and because a ship can't do everything at once.

Or else, train for a T3.

How complicated it is to understand ?

Those ships ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO ANY KIND OF SOLO PVE.

ARE NOT.

I'm not saying "You can't do lvl 4s with this", I'm saying "You're not supposed to because it's utterly ineffective and stupid".

The Retribution doesn't have two medslots, and this prevent it from being used in PVP.

The Vagabond have high EM/Therm resistances, and that's pretty good for BloodRaider ratting.

The Naga does less damage than a Drake. Tank less. And it's more expensive. Who in their right mind would run missions with this. Oh and, you can't shoot elite frigates if one of them tackle you.

Then you can complain that your torps don't hit anything and your ship always dies in a fire? Without the range, damage, and radial bonus a torp boat will be worthless. Go read up on the first half of this thread- exactly how terrible the Naga was EVEN WITH BONUSES.

And....What would it bring ?

huh?

Are you trolling?

Why do people still make this stupid comment?

I, for one, support the right of caldari pilots to failfit their ships. We don't have enough funny killmails as it.

HA HA - You are whining like my 6 year old kid... Give it time and CCP will attend the visual launcher thing. Tbh missiles seems pretty balanced to me all around except light missiles. They are just different and NO race is forced to use missiles. They are even if you pretend it's wrong a secondary weapon system with a few ships using it as their primary...

Nobody really cares about missile graphics. And having visible launchers just makes it blindingly obvious when you're trying to bait a frigate with an AML Drake, for example, it'll be a small nerf to missile users.

Oh wait, I forgot, rats in L4 missions don't change their behaviour based on what missiles you're using.

"Guys guys take it on my word as a caldari pilot-- the way to fix eve is to give the Raven 20 missile hardpoints and change missiles so they do full damage to MWDing interceptors. Gallente should be forced to use drones and railguns should remain utterly useless!"

Getout you badspelling moron.

:frogbarf:

e: this forum needs negrep. Badly.

I would like to point out that while the Naga is still being debated by the players, and rightfully so given the last look we had, the advertisements for Crucible CCP has put out still lists the Naga as Hybrid AND Torp.

CCP, Please read this one carefully.

Are you messing with those of us still paying attention, or are you about to make everyone looking at the advertising very very upset?

I hope, I really really do hope, the naga will still have torps and you don't have false advertising up.