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Cuci Cairi
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 14:31:00 -
[31] - Quote
I've never thought about this, before. Why can't they be digitized? Can one of the faithful explain this, beyond just saying "erm, no"? We are all aware that the Scriptures are constantly changing and being modified, but there is no reason that it couldn't just then be updated to a new digital version. Hell, the Theology Council could even provide "correct" interpretive commentary alongside the digital Scriptures. |

Nauplius
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
33
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 15:15:00 -
[32] - Quote
When I survey in the Empyreans in all of their wickedness, all of their vanities, and all of their pride, I see a people who would benefit neither from the most careful of Scriptural interpretations nor from cybernetic Scriptural learning, because they have already hardened their hearts against God or formed a false image of God in their own minds GÇö a God only of love and mercy and compassion.
No, the Empyreans need be convicted of God's power, God's hatred, and God's glory. And that is what I GÇö an unschooled street preacher of the IGS GÇö hope to do with my teaching.
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Nauplius
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
33
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 15:24:00 -
[33] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:If God was forgiving and benevolent, I doubt he would create a realm dedicated to torturing souls for all eternity.
As the Scriptures say, "The Wrath of God is Immense."
Fredfredbug4 wrote:And if God is so powerful, why hasn't he destroyed tbese pesky demons? Isn't it contradictory to claim there is one all powerful God while also believing in other entities that can override God's will and lure humans away from his grace?
God could destroy the Demons with a mere wave of His divine arm, or a mere thought of the same. The Demons exist because God wills they exist. When the righteous man triumphs over the Demons, it gives glory to God. When the Wicked man is tormented by the Demons in the Pit, it gives glory to God. When someday God has had enough of the Demons and destroys them, their destruction will give glory to God.
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Nauplius
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
33
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 15:25:00 -
[34] - Quote
Vlad Cetes wrote:How much effort was used to write this useless drivel? Try using that energy for more productive ends.
Is the chance that even one slave is spared from eternal destruction by these few words not worth the effort? |

Andreus Ixiris
Duty. The Cursed Few
3791
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 16:26:00 -
[35] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:No, the Empyreans need be convicted of God's power, God's hatred, and God's glory. And that is what I GÇö an unschooled street preacher of the IGS GÇö hope to do with my teaching. The only thing you're doing is making yourself look like a very dedicated satirist or a complete idiot. The only hatred you're convincing anyone of is your own - your petty hatred for things you can't control. Mane 614
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Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1351
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 16:29:00 -
[36] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Katrina Oniseki wrote: EDIT: I should clarify and admit that this is not the only reason our injected-learning rates are controlled. It's also for safety reasons, as I have been told.
It is more than safety reasons, even if those exist too. It is also about the defining of any living being. Anyone is the sum of his or her memories. Modify that in one stroke without making the whole assimilation process, and you eventually "rewrite" any individual into something else.
Oh, thank you for pointing this out - it is so often missed. I think that Capsuleers are somewhat jaded about their concept of "the self", given our ability to circumvent death and all of the curious cognitive effects that come with it. I would be unsurprised if many Capsuleers didn't care about making those sorts of alterations to themselves, which is really rather frightening given what a cleverly designed implant can do to ones' utility function!
More specifically, in regards to your statement and to the gracious Oniseki-haani's statement, any sort of cognitive remapping has to be done over a span of time commensurate with the number of nodes being remapped. Branching habit violations are of relatively little concern, and are in fact the reason why we call these operations a remap instead of a regrowth. However, care must be taken that the overall map vector is not greatly altered, and that any alterations happen continuously.
What you refer to above as a rewrite is called (at least in our literature here) as a "discontinuity". A discontinuity marks the end of a conscious entity; it's one of the last places we can realistically cite as death. They are sadly frequent in Capsuleer circles; I myself had one a few years ago. We aren't immortals, not at all. Our neutral structures decay very quickly indeed as soon as the pilot becomes lax in her cognitive hygiene regimen.
Let it be a sobering lesson - take care of your brains first! They really are all you've got. |

Lyn Farel
Kitzless
638
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 16:59:00 -
[37] - Quote
Stitcher wrote: Those flight manuals are several terabytes in size each. I have assimilated 305 such packages so far, 130 of them to completion.
The scriptures are not "a whole culture" because cultures are living things produced by humans. What the Scriptures are is the combined writing, philosophy and theology of that culture. They are data, and nowhere close to the many hundreds of terabytes I have already assimilated.
You're quite right that I have not assimilated the Scriptures in that way - I never claimed to. I have devoted that time to things like spaceship operation and gunnery.
My point is that in the age of the advanced cybernetic learning techniques used by all capsuleers, the assertion that the Scriptures are too large to be read and understood by a single person inside their lifetime simply is no longer true.
Then I am afraid that you do not understand what the Scriptures really are. They are supposed to represent the Amarr culture, which means that through all that data, one could theorically get a clear picture of what is the culture and understand it perfectly, like through a lens. But if you do not understand that, I can also return the usual favour done by many caldari consisting to say "You can not understand, after all you are just a jaijji". Then, if it has to come to that, and even if I do not believe in that kind of poppycock... You can not understand, you are not Amarr.
I am also afraid that you know very little of SoCT issued technology. Those skillbooks contain the data required as knowledge (much like what the scriptures are) as well as the data required as a mean to understand and master said knowledge. [And that is a gross simplification of the real tech]
I am still maintaining that merely storing all that scripture data into one's brain is meaningless, it only helps the individual to access it instantly, unlike going to the library and look for the book, then the correct page. In both cases, it is necessary to read/watch/listen to (which takes a lot of time) and then understanding it. That precise understanding has to be accommodated into the brain, the same way skillbooks comprehension has to be slowly injected.
Considering the amount of scripture data, it would take eons to master it all. |

Lyn Farel
Kitzless
638
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 17:18:00 -
[38] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Katrina Oniseki wrote: EDIT: I should clarify and admit that this is not the only reason our injected-learning rates are controlled. It's also for safety reasons, as I have been told.
It is more than safety reasons, even if those exist too. It is also about the defining of any living being. Anyone is the sum of his or her memories. Modify that in one stroke without making the whole assimilation process, and you eventually "rewrite" any individual into something else. Oh, thank you for pointing this out - it is so often missed. I think that Capsuleers are somewhat jaded about their concept of "the self", given our ability to circumvent death and all of the curious cognitive effects that come with it. I would be unsurprised if many Capsuleers didn't care about making those sorts of alterations to themselves, which is really rather frightening given what a cleverly designed implant can do to ones' utility function! More specifically, in regards to your statement and to the gracious Oniseki-haani's statement, any sort of cognitive remapping has to be done over a span of time commensurate with the number of nodes being remapped. Branching habit violations are of relatively little concern, and are in fact the reason why we call these operations a remap instead of a regrowth. However, care must be taken that the overall map vector is not greatly altered, and that any alterations happen continuously. What you refer to above as a rewrite is called (at least in our literature here) as a "discontinuity". A discontinuity marks the end of a conscious entity; it's one of the last places we can realistically cite as death. They are sadly frequent in Capsuleer circles; I myself had one a few years ago. We aren't immortals, not at all. Our neutral structures decay very quickly indeed as soon as the pilot becomes lax in her cognitive hygiene regimen. Let it be a sobering lesson - take care of your brains first! They really are all you've got.
Oh ! That is how you call it ? That is pretty much similar. it can also lead to interesting things like "memory oblivions". |

Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1351
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 17:50:00 -
[39] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Oh ! That is how you call it ? That is pretty much similar. it can also lead to interesting things like "memory oblivions".
Do you mean an internally biased network cycle, or do you mean a disconnected map partition?
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Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
1613
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 18:26:00 -
[40] - Quote
Jinari Otsito wrote:It's so nice to occasionally have a public reminder of how absolutely nutbag crazy the Empire, religion, the scriptures and its adherents really are.
Especially considering that we don't actually believe in this "Hell" that he's talking about ... I'd suggest that the Theology Council have an educational chat with him. Nullsec in a Nutshell: http://nedroid.com/comics/2006-08-24-2155-arrrdino.gif |

Silas Vitalia
Nobilita Nera JIHADASQUAD
1214
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 18:35:00 -
[41] - Quote
An interesting example of those who feel everything can me measured, codified, and assimilated, and those who feel knowing a path and walking a path are different things.
Then again the OP does have the stench of the deliberately stupid about him.
Sabik now, Sabik forever |

Lyn Farel
Kitzless
639
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 23:19:00 -
[42] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Oh ! That is how you call it ? That is pretty much similar. it can also lead to interesting things like "memory oblivions". Do you mean an internally biased network cycle, or do you mean a disconnected map partition?
Mostly the latter, where synaptic disorders can occur following certain patterns when non compliance to security protocols is observed, either though provoked discontinuity, or through raw erasing. Memory oblivion is the latter, and occasional wetware induced schizophrenia can sometimes be the former. |

Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1351
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 04:55:00 -
[43] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Scherezad wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Oh ! That is how you call it ? That is pretty much similar. it can also lead to interesting things like "memory oblivions". Do you mean an internally biased network cycle, or do you mean a disconnected map partition? Mostly the latter, where synaptic disorders can occur following certain patterns when non compliance to security protocols is observed, either though provoked discontinuity, or through raw erasing. Memory oblivion is the latter, and occasional wetware induced schizophrenia can sometimes be the former. Oh, yes, both of those are pretty horrible to watch in action. Seeing a bound cycle in action really tightens my chest! It's dramatic to watch. The schizophrenia is really quite terrible especially - i've got some personal experience with that, though not a lot. Quite frightening in some respects. |

Naomi Tichim
Lost Star Expeditions
38
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 14:27:00 -
[44] - Quote
And what of those slavers who keep slaves long after they should have been freed?
You're the reason everyone thinks we're a bunch of crazy psychos. |

Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Cult of War
1641
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 23:01:00 -
[45] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote: Even the Scriptures can only be taken metaphorically since they are written by men, and so hold men values and observations on an entity that goes beyond them.
In other words, there is nothing holy or spiritual about them. By this logic, the scriptures are nothing more than a story and anyone who believes them to be fact is no better than your overzealous science fiction or fantasy geek.
Nauplius wrote:
God could destroy the Demons with a mere wave of His divine arm, or a mere thought of the same. The Demons exist because God wills they exist. When the righteous man triumphs over the Demons, it gives glory to God. When the Wicked man is tormented by the Demons in the Pit, it gives glory to God. When someday God has had enough of the Demons and destroys them, their destruction will give glory to God.
If their destruction will give Glory to God and apparently God can do this with a mere thought, then why doesn't he do it?
Clearly, your God is either incredibly weak or incredibly lazy. Either one may explain why the Minmatar managed to break free. Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |

Nauplius
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
36
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 01:02:00 -
[46] - Quote
Naomi Tichim wrote:And what of those slavers who keep slaves long after they should have been freed?
Of course, all slaveholders in the Amarr Empire must obey the Empress in such matters. |

Naomi Tichim
Lost Star Expeditions
39
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 12:50:00 -
[47] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:Naomi Tichim wrote:And what of those slavers who keep slaves long after they should have been freed? Of course, all slaveholders in the Amarr Empire must obey the Empress in such matters.
OK, you're not on the lunatic fringe. Next question:
Why do we enslave the children of slaves? Surely it is within the capacity of our mighty empire to raise them as free and pious subjects. |

Nauplius
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
36
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 14:24:00 -
[48] - Quote
Naomi Tichim wrote:OK, you're not on the lunatic fringe. Next question: Many misguided individuals do consider me a lunatic because I think respect for God's justice and holiness and glory demands exquisite punishment for the Gallente and other sinners, and I celebrate such punishments (because God is glorified in them) and enjoy writing about them.
Naomi Tichim wrote:Why do we enslave the children of slaves? Surely it is within the capacity of our mighty empire to raise them as free and pious subjects. Because unlike the Gallente scum, we see reward and punishment not (only) as something meted out to individuals, but to families and races and nations and other collectives. For example, the Amarr became the Chosen long ago, and retain such status to this day, and the boundaries between the Chosen and the Non-Chosen move slowly over time. Nine generations of slavery is a flash of time on such a scale.
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Cuci Cairi
10
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 14:59:00 -
[49] - Quote
Nauplius wrote: Many misguided individuals do consider me a lunatic because I think respect for God's justice and holiness and glory demands exquisite punishment for the Gallente and other sinners, and I celebrate such punishments (because God is glorified in them) and enjoy writing about them.
Why does the theoretical punishment of others glorify your god? |

Naomi Tichim
Lost Star Expeditions
39
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 15:10:00 -
[50] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:Naomi Tichim wrote:OK, you're not on the lunatic fringe. Next question: Many misguided individuals do consider me a lunatic because I think respect for God's justice and holiness and glory demands exquisite punishment for the Gallente and other sinners, and I celebrate such punishments (because God is glorified in them) and enjoy writing about them. Naomi Tichim wrote:Why do we enslave the children of slaves? Surely it is within the capacity of our mighty empire to raise them as free and pious subjects. Because unlike the Gallente scum, we see reward and punishment not (only) as something meted out to individuals, but to families and races and nations and other collectives. For example, the Amarr became the Chosen long ago, and retain such status to this day, and the boundaries between the Chosen and the Non-Chosen move slowly over time. Nine generations of slavery is a flash of time on such a scale. But a child of a slave who was raised by an Amarrian family would be Amarrian in every way that matters. Not race, true, but she would be Amarrian in her language, her culture, her view, and her beliefs. |

Andreus Ixiris
Duty. The Cursed Few
3797
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 15:54:00 -
[51] - Quote
Notice that Nappy always has to bring the subject back to the Gallente, whether or not it's actually remotely relevant to the conversation. Methinks the poor man has an unhealthy obsession. Mane 614
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
2492
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 15:57:00 -
[52] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:Naomi Tichim wrote:OK, you're not on the lunatic fringe... Why do we enslave the children of slaves? Surely it is within the capacity of our mighty empire to raise them as free and pious subjects. Because unlike the Gallente scum, we see reward and punishment not (only) as something meted out to individuals, but to families and races and nations and other collectives. For example, the Amarr became the Chosen long ago, and retain such status to this day, and the boundaries between the Chosen and the Non-Chosen move slowly over time. Nine generations of slavery is a flash of time on such a scale.
Not on the lunatic fringe, but definitely on the lunatic mainstream...
An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
3540
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 16:16:00 -
[53] - Quote
AND THIS IS WHY THE GALLENTE MUST BE DEST-wait a second, wrong jackass.
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty. The Cursed Few
3797
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 17:42:00 -
[54] - Quote
Anslo wrote:AND THIS IS WHY THE GALLENTE MUST BE DEST-wait a second, wrong jackass. They all blend together after a while, don't they? No longer distinct, they've become a single wordless wail of impotence, their lives made infinitely miserable by the fact that the Federation existed, still exists and will continue to exist for a very, very long time.
...
Oh, this is the part where I'm meant to insincerely imply that I feel some sympathy for their plight, isn't it?
Hmm. Hmm. How do I... oh, yes, this should do.
Ahem. And that's terrible. Mane 614
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Constantin Baracca
277
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 17:42:00 -
[55] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Notice that Nappy always has to bring the subject back to the Gallente, whether or not it's actually remotely relevant to the conversation. Methinks the poor man has an unhealthy obsession.
It does make one wonder if he thought that he and the Gallente Federation had something special, but the Gallente Federation didn't call him back. So he went to where Gallente Federation works, but Gallente Federation's friends told him that the Gallente Federation wasn't working that day even though he knew that it was.
But that's okay. He never liked the Gallente Federation anyway. "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |

Andreus Ixiris
Duty. The Cursed Few
3797
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 17:49:00 -
[56] - Quote
We didn't want that tortured relationship metaphor anyway. Mane 614
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Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
3544
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 19:04:00 -
[57] - Quote
See, Baracca does the Amarr thing right. He doesn't take it too seriously. He's amicable, funny, understanding, and most importantly flexible. This works. Zealotry does not.
To put it in perspective, if i saw Baracca in space, lowsec, and i could easily kill him, i wouldn't hesitate to let him pass through, unharmed, and offer to share a beer and a talk with him.
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Constantin Baracca
278
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 19:23:00 -
[58] - Quote
Anslo wrote:See, Baracca does the Amarr thing right. He doesn't take it too seriously. He's amicable, funny, understanding, and most importantly flexible. This works. Zealotry does not.
To put it in perspective, if i saw Baracca in space, lowsec, and i could easily kill him, i wouldn't hesitate to let him pass through, unharmed, and offer to share a beer and a talk with him.
If you ever see me in hisec as well, I'm good for that beer. Or cognac, actually. The best way to bring the Word is to be a part of the cultural exchange. I've always thought the Scriptures stand the test of time and the faith stands solidly on its own as a good idea. There's really no reason to go and chain people up arbitrarily. If experience teaches anything, it's that such actions probably aren't the most effective means of conversion.
Besides that, if you get too tangled up in your own imperial image, you miss out on all the great things that come from other empires. The best part of my job is that so much of it is getting back exactly what I'm trying to put in. People will listen very intently to you preach the Word in Gallente space when they know you're also learning from them. So many times, I go to a university, conduct my sermon, and end up in an art gallery afterwards.
My favorite was the seminar I conducted last year that concluded with being invited to learn how to skeleton race down an ice-chute. That turned into a week-long party and eventually led to, last month, the ordination of one of the people I'd preached to in the priesthood.
Fantastic times! "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |

Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
3544
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 19:27:00 -
[59] - Quote
SEE?? What he just did? Good way! See nappy's vitoc and collar rabble? Bad way.
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Lyn Farel
Kitzless
639
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 19:53:00 -
[60] - Quote
Scherezad wrote: Oh, yes, both of those are pretty horrible to watch in action. Seeing a bound cycle in action really tightens my chest! It's dramatic to watch. The schizophrenia is really quite terrible especially - i've got some personal experience with that, though not a lot. Quite frightening in some respects.
You mean that you had a part of your memory rewritten that caused memory oblivion or schizophrenia ?
Fredfredbug4 wrote:Lyn Farel wrote: Even the Scriptures can only be taken metaphorically since they are written by men, and so hold men values and observations on an entity that goes beyond them.
In other words, there is nothing holy or spiritual about them. By this logic, the scriptures are nothing more than a story and anyone who believes them to be fact is no better than your overzealous science fiction or fantasy geek.
It mostly depends what people call "holy". Saint patrons of Amarr religion were men too. They are not holy because they come from the divine, they are holy for what they embody or represent, much like the scriptures.
Also, well, if you can find me a story including all the scientific, academic, religious (etc) texts of a culture, thus all its knowledge combined, with millions of contributing authors, I would be rather interested. |
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