The new bonus yet undisclosed to replace th e onld one?

Because I am yet to see anyone claiming ccp would make the vindicator be the only pirate ship with 2 bonuses only.

but it seems like the bonus is just pure op.

i'll give you a like for this 90% webs are OP and need a nerf .. and webs in general need a rebalance..

though just by looking at the web bonus by its self its a op bonus period.

Another fool...

Read my post above... dude PIRATE SHIPS ARE NOT OK AT ALL. Just because you never ever seen succubus ingame or phantasm. Does not mean those ships are limited edition. THOSE SHIPS NEED LOVE NOW. You don't see them because they are DEEP BELOW standard t1 ships. Yes they are not just medicore. They are obnoxiously bad and probably most broken and most useless hulls in this game.

Pirate rebalance should be priority above all other hulls.

YES FIX THINGS THAT ARE BROKEN(pirate ships) AND IGNORE MINOR ISSUES Thaddeus is talking about.

Why is so hard for you to understand that the serpentis web bonus make a web 4 TIMES stronger. While the baalghorn bonus makes a neutralizer 75% stronger.

There is a HUGE difference there!

Webs at 90% are much more absolute, specially when combined with superior firepower of serpentis ship. The shisp are not hugely OP, but they clearly have the most sinergetic bonus set !

I don't think the bonus need to be removed. But it could be reduced to 7.5% per level on the vindicator and left alone in the vigilant. The daredevil is harder to emit a precise diagnostics

You are total ******, i'm calling it now. No i actually i raped last rail dd with lol kiting coercer kiting at 19/20km with mwd.
Actually I'm OK WITH STRONG VINDI AS IT IS.
I'm not ok with other pirate ships like Sansha nation mostly to be left as piece of **** you idiot.

Yourself prooved its 4 times dammit!

One makes you go to 10ms other to 40. I wil lhelp you 40/10 -> 4

I lost something - but its patience. In matter of facts i'm winner.

My arguments : Sansha ships are **** - they need buff. Your counterarguments ? COMPLETLY NOONE
Your argument Serpentis ships are strong and they should remain strong. My stance : i'm completly ok with this but bring other pirate ships to this level.

Now yeah i lost PATIENCE, because of ignorant posters like you who would gladly remove Sansha lineup from game.
All you care is some stupid painted megathron called vindicator.
There is more than that - and i fight for all ships to be viable and be real powerful option.

Go away you bugger ... if you would realize what i'm trying to achieve here you would just unsub from this game after realizing your mental impotence.

No.. I am not doing it wrong. Will reiterate my post.

8 is 4 times more than 2. Under your approach it would be 3, because if you divide 8 by 2 for 3 time syou get same value.

A composite series is not same thing as a function. Mathematically 90% web is 4 times strogner than 60% web. If you try to rerpesent in a composite serie sof independent terms you would need only 2 terms repeating. YEat that does nto mean its only 2 times more.

Its simple math, I understand the confusion, but peopel need to realize the difference between the 2 things.

All you talk is vindi this, vindi that . Bhaal this , bhaal that.

AND THAT IS MY FRIGGIN PROBLEM ... there are other ships around who should be equally powerful (but diffrent at same time) AND IT'S NOT CASE.
You are not going to tell me daredevil is on same power level as succubus, or cynabal as strong as phantasm ?

That's what i'm talking about. Surge of power to ships that need it, not nerfing stupid vindicator ... dude WHAT THE HELL you are talking about. Trying to tell me i want something i do not actually is kinda full ****** - and you are surprised i lost my patience ?

In the end you want same thing , that i want. But you just cannot comprehend that. And yes i hate idiots ;/

You joking your you seriously math challenged? because its hard to get mathematical sarcasm on the internet.

I made 0 excuses here ... completly 0. I will say more. No fucks are given about your problem with "Naomi Anthar wants vindi nerfed" ... dude you are stupid and problematic fool. No offence actually. That is fact you got some weird imagination that i got problems with some stuff while its not TRUE.

Take drugs off. I'm done.

Vindi is only op when its got logi with it, if you take the logi off the field, stay out of web and gun range, the vindi becomes worthless, easy, just seems that everyone wants to be within hug range while playing the game all the damn time.

most arguments for Vindi opness are provided by Suddenly Spaceships ... "not op , but we are using them in groups of 20 ..."

Yeah whatever xddd

They are op, but they can stay that way just buff other pirate factions to this level aka BE AS GOOD AS THAT.

Because that is certainly joke to say other battleships are at same power level (maybe machariel ... but thats it)

4x as powerful result != 400% effect

Exactly, 1 X 60% web on a vindi with pilot with minBS5 = 1 X 90% web in effect.

Regardless of what figures get thrown around, the situation is, that 1 X 90% web does the same job 2 X 60% unbonused webs do anywhere else.

this basically frees up a mid slot.

The % of a web is a completely arbitrary number.

If eve devs wanted to, the speed reduction could be twice the web factor, or half the web factor, or anything else they wanted. The pertinent quantity to calculate is the % velocity the ship has left. A 90% web isnt 50% stronger than a 60% web for the same reason that 90% resists dont give you 50% more ehp than 60% resists.

Ok. Then does a ship that goes from 60% em resist to 90% em resist have 50% more ehp vs em?

Ok. Then does a ship that goes from 60% em resist to 90% em resist have 50% more ehp vs em?

Or how about this: Does a ship under 60% td-range have 50% more range than a ship under 90% td-range?

This is not what I asked.

The calculation is quite easy. Ehp = Hp/(1-resists)

So at 60% resists you have ehp=Hp/(1-.6)=2.5*hp

At 90% resists you have ehp=Hp/(1-.9)=10*hp. This is a 4-fold increase in ehp.


So are 90% resists 50% more effective than 60% resists, or 4 times as effective?

50% my ass.

No, the way you calculate it is by its effect in game, as opposed to arbitrary numbers.

A ship that is 90% webbed goes a quarter the speed of a ship that is 60% webbed. It takes 4x as much damage (up to the theoretical eft dps). It sig tanks 1/4 as well.

Also you need 5 60% webs, not 2, to match a single 90% web.

What you are saying is the same thing as saying that a 100% rof* bonus is twice as good as a 50% rof* bonus. It is not.

*: Rof bonus being the way ccp uses it, which is a negative bonus to gun cycle duration. ie, a 100% rof bonus would give you infinitely fast refire rate.

Quoting for posterity

First, subtracting a percentage from a number is hilarious.

Second, I think you should check what modules get stacking penalties. Maybe eve uni has a class for you.

Edit: Here, I found their page. Maybe you should consider joining them for a while. http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Stacking_penalties

Stasis webifier effects do indeed have a stacking penalty. It's actually a good point that we should add a mention of that fact to their descriptions.

Anyway, 90% webs are insanely overpowered and need removing from the game (much as I find using them entertaining, it's not good for balance).

Edit: And NightmareX, now that you've realised you don't understand the topic, could you abstain from further 'contributions'. Thank you.

You have already shown you have literally no idea how strong a 90% web is, so how can you claim its weaker than 100% web range?

NightmareX ... sorry but what kind of knowledge you have to judge what is overpowered and what is not.

As you managed to discover after 9 years that webs are stacking penalized hence why web on serpentis ship > 2 x normal webs.

Sorry to burst your bubble of knowledge but barely more than year old player like me knows this fact for long time..

Why i'm saying this ? Because you basically don't know how powerful and op bonus Vindis have.

Now don't get me wrong ... but leave balance of ships to those that know how they work.
I know why Vindi is strong - but i don't want to alter it. Just give same power to other pirate battleships and we are set. If not then i'm afraid Vindi must be cut. Share power among pirate factions ... there is no logical or role playing justification for stronger hulls on serpentis side.



And yeah i remember when you were asking me if i fly Vindis often and you know what you are talking about ... yeah maybe not flying painted Megas as often, as you but in the end i know how they work lolz .... i have Ashimmus and cruors and that web effect is not mystery for me.

And yes, bhaalgorn's web bonus is indeed very strong, and in some situations, will be better than web strength. However, bhaalgorn webs do not enable a moros to volley afterburning frigates. Vindicator webs do.

The vindicator could do that with a local tracking bonus, or 75% webs. 90% webs enable x-l guns (the ones that go on dreads and titans) to hit afterburning frigates.

So is your suggestion that vindicators shouldn't be allowed in fleets?

Is it also not the primaries fault if they get reps from logi, therefore you can just make logi hilariously powerful?


The vindicator could still hit smaller ships with a tracking bonus and then wouldn't cause an issue in fleet combat.

And you stilll haven't answered the question: please explain how a web range bonus allows blap dreads to track ab hacs (or even ab frigates) in the same way that a 90% web does?

Thats with one web. nuff said.

No, if you look above I mention the maximally sigtanked malediction being hittable by a vindicator with no tracking modules and void loaded.

Well, it's about how the ships are balanced in overall PvP. That's what balance is.


And you've still not answered the question; please explain how a web range bonus allows blap dreads to track ab hacs (or even ab frigates) in the same way that a 90% web does?

Also, even if just in regard to other pirate BS. Which other pirate BS allows dreads to track ab frigates?

Except that the frig can just leave because frig cap regen time beats heavy neut cycle time quite handily.

That also doesn't answer the question; please explain how a web range bonus allows blap dreads to track ab hacs (or even ab frigates) in the same way that a 90% web does?

And that still doesn't answer the question; please explain how a web range bonus allows blap dreads to track ab hacs (or even ab frigates) in the same way that a 90% web does?

Clue, the key words there are "web range bonus"

Please explain how a web range bonus allows blap dreads to track ab hacs (or even ab frigates) in the same way that a 90% web does?

100% web ~range~.


Do you not even read the words you're typing?

I personally think that web bonuses on ships with more than 100k ehp should die in a fire.

You've edited it out to pretend it was a double post. Not embarrassed by not knowing what you yourself said 10 minutes earlier I hope?


Anyway, that takes us neatly back to the question you still haven't answered; Please explain how a web range bonus allows blap dreads to track ab hacs (or even ab frigates) in the same way that a 90% web does?

Please explain how a web range bonus allows blap dreads to track ab hacs (or even ab frigates) in the same way that a 90% web does?

If a XL guns can track then so can literally every other gun in game. You are aware that fleets exist right?

So again; Please explain how a web range bonus allows blap dreads to track ab hacs (or even ab frigates) in the same way that a 90% web does?

Yes, and 90% webs are broken both in the context of a vindicator alone, and in the (much more common) context of vindicators in a fleet with dreads.

Ok, im going to spell this out very clearly and slowly for you.

No number of 60% webs can match 2 or more 90% webs. Not 6 60% webs. Not 10 60% webs. Not a million 60% webs. 6 megathrons will web a ship down less than 1 vindicator. will. 600 megathrons will web a ship down less than 1 vindicator will. 60000000000 megathrons will web a ship down less than 1 vindicator will.

You realise that due to stacking penalties it's only possible to web things to that level with 90% webs?

Your post is still wrong. 2 ships webbing a target with 1 web each is the same as 1 ship webbing a target with 2 webs.

Edit: I really, really think you should join eve uni for a while.

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Applying_to_EVE_University

Consider yourself corrected. Offensive modules are stacking penalised against similar modules on other ships. That's why people don't bring 400 rapiers to a fight or 8000 TD curses...

You realize that for 60% webs to web a ship down to 1m/s, its base speed would have to be 10 m/s? No ship in the game is that slow.

I thought we got you to understand that webs have a stacking penalty, like 6 or 7 pages ago.

No, because webs are stacking penalised, so every web after the first doesn't do 60% reduction of the remaining speed. That's what stacking penalties are...

So lemme ask you another question: How often do you fly a Vindicator? A dread? A bhaal?

So, learn how to deal with your enemies and the AoE doomsday wont be a problem

So, learn how to deal with your enemies and the perfect tracking infinite range blasters wont be a problem

So, learn how to deal with your enemies and the ship with infinite modules fit wont be a problem

And so on.

In this thread you have demonstrated an incredible lack of knowledge of basic game mechanics, the sort of thing that even month old brave newbies suicide tacklers know. But of course, we should listen to you about balance, since you have an expensive fleet.

You don't even know how webs work

Michel get in a neut/TD/armor drone curse and nightmare get in your vindi we will see what happens.

1. And it's been said that it is also too powerful on the small scale as seen with the daredevil, that's why it needs removing from ~all~ ships. However, it's only the people in vindicators that are in here denying the obvious.
2. While having a certain amount of ISK for minor upgrades is a balancing tool (see T2 hulls), you can't justify overpowered ships just because they're expensive. See how that worked out for titans.
3. That's literally not how stacking penalised webs work. You can bring infinite 60% webs and they're not as good as two 90% webs. There are pages and pages trying to explain this...

NightmareX plstop))

Yeh, I wouldn't really know anything about good frig piloting... o\


And do you still not understand how stacking penalties work?

100 rapiers and 100 lokis cannot web a ship as strongly as 1 vindicator

Curse - Surely you are joking
Rapier - EHP/res/synergy with blap dreads
Loki - same as rapier except slightly less on the EHP side
Falcon... can't even be compared since its an entirely different kind of ewar.

Marauders.. waht?

Two 90% webs are more slowing than infinite 60% webs. You literally cannot bring enough lokis. How do you not understand this?


Stack-ing pen-al-ties.

1. The Curse is one of the most overrated ships around. It has some neat bonuses but its nowhere near overpowered.

2. Web range bonuses should be nerfed too, i just don't hate them as much as 90% webs.

3. ewar t3's need some heavy rebalance yes.

4. ECM is a ****** system.

Pointing out that something is stupidly designed isn't a very good argument to keep something else stupid.

Yes. One of them takes up to twice as much damage as the other. I leave it to you to figure out which one that is.

This would matter at all if you could get an ab cruiser to 20m/s with 60% webs. You cannot.

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Applying_to_EVE_University

Seriously, give it a try.

I have literally pages of posts in here, educating you for free. This entire thread is like a charity to help people, such as yourself, who have played a game for almost a decade but havent learned the most basic things.

I think thats a very useful thing to do, and I am thus recommending you continue your education.

Using tp's and 8 unbonused webs.

A Moros with two tracking computers and a strong Drop booster will be able to outdps a battleship against a AB cruiser at 35 km

two vindi webs and 2 tps however and the moros will be hitting for 10k at 20 km and is only outdpsed by battleships against targets closer than 7km

Add a couple more vindi webs and it basically gets full application..

90% webs give dreads damage application vs small targets thats unattainable with normal webs, its not even close.

You are saying, that other pirate ships are as useful and good in PvP, as Vindicator .... Oh no ................
Michael Harari is completly right ... you are on par in game knowledge with fresh noobs on trial accounts.

CCP cut this web bonus. Time is right.

People like you are reason succubus , phantasm and nightmare are in such position - **** PvE tool at best.
Because obviously everything is balanced and most balanced are ships you are using.
CCP gets such feedback and so they think it's ok.

I fully agree with CCP statement now that this ship lineup is overboard and needs to be in line with others.

So again cut it without mercy. Can't wait for it.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3932036#post3932036

Its literally in this very thread, which maybe you should read.

Also in this thread (on the very first page in fact), is Fozzie saying that the dd and vindicator are too strong, and are too strong because of their web bonus.

Nobody in this thread has said that pirate tiercide is around the corner.

Im not sure you know what "cream your pants" means. Maybe once you hit puberty?

I can confirm that Shadow cartel members are all quite poor and never ever use stupidly expensive ships.

CCP Fozzie is not saying they are going to add something to compensate for a web nerf.

You got me.

We are actually super butthurt about losing on average about half a vindicator a month. I mean.. thats like a billion a month /o\

Well in my defense, your sentence up there doesn't make any sense what so ever so i sort of just guessed what you meant.

Are you instead suggesting SC members don't use vindies? :P

I like how nightmarex is able to believe both

1) The vindicator is obsolete without 90% webs
and simultaneously believe
2) 90% webs dont do anything that 60% webs dont

Is suddenly spaceships always at war with eastasia?

You can check if you dont believe me, but it makes quite a large difference in applied dps.

You are speaking such BS dude ... you think that Vindi hull is sold by NPCs with fixed price of 1.1 B ... market put them at that price tag cuz they are op ;>. Damn sorry but you sound really stupid here. stop xdd

I can give you for your Vindi 400kk , contract it to this character ingame. Thanks.

Of Course Dreadnaught balance in regards to 90% webs is part of the discussion. Everything in eve needs to be balanced around the bigger picture. For example, If Frigates could do 300 DPS and have 20k EHP each then no-one would ever fly Cruisers. Therefore Frigate balance as a whole is relevant to Cruiser balance, and so on. Just like 90% webs are relevant to every ship class in the game regardless of Pirate & Battleship balance.

90% webs don't just effect Dreads, AB interceptors in perfect traversal get tracked by Void L from a scram/webbed Vindicator 1km away when they have 2x Vindicator webs on them. 90% webs are very unhealthy for the game.

This runs the risk of supers and non triaged carriers speed tanking dreads, also think of the wormholes please.

Even without dreads the 90% web is overpowered.

Dreads just make it massively overpowered.

It increases damage application from all sources more than any other ewar in game.

http://i.imgur.com/R9ubVDN.png


That is an AB-ing dramiel with max transversal being shot by both a navy mega with 3 60% webs (the red line) and a vindicator with just one 90% web (the green line). Both ships are using neutron cannons with CN antimatter and no weapon mods (either damage or tracking).

So what you said is completely wrong. Would you like to try again?

Hell, I think the Vindi would be just fine with a 7.5% bonus per level. That comes out to 82.5% webs. Still a great amount, still vastly more powerful.

Why do you think that is balanced?

And yes, a battleship with infinite 60% webs will not hit a frig with max transversal, but it will hit one with two 90% webs on it. This is why 90% webs are overpowered. Because they enable things that are not possible in any other way and break the game balance.

Also 2 cruisers and 2 frigates. All of those need the 90% web removed. Because 90% webs are too powerful.


And pirate battleships, (including the vindicator) are cheap. A ship of that cost applying an aggressive ewar that is better than anything in game is a bargin.


Are you really trying to argue that a ship that is more powerful than anything else in game is balanced because it's the only one that's more powerful than anything else in game? That's the definition of something being overpowered.

Price is not a balancing factor. To put this more simply, ship effectiveness is the independent variable, and ship price is the dependent variable. For instance, the new Stratios BP costs 30m ISK + 120,000 LP (from SoE). The BP then uses about 10m in minerals to make (when I built mine). That brings the isk cost of the Stratios to 40m + 120,000 LP. And yet the stratios is currently selling on the market for over 500m. It's the value of the ship itself, determined by it's stats, benefits and niche use that drives its cost in the mind of players. You paying 1.16b for a vindicator hull is not in of itself an argument that the ship should be good. Rather, the ship costs 1.16b because it's good. Will the price of the ship drop if CCP nerfs the 90% web bonus a bit? Yes. Is that a good reason not to fix mechanics for which the general opinion is that they are OP? No, it's not.

Should the webbing bonus be removed? No, definitely not. CCP has even stated that they are happy Serpentis have a strong role for their ships and they want to model the other pirate faction ships to be the same way. Should the web bonus see a reduction? I would support that. Let's see CCP reduce the bonus (to say, 75%), test it internally, then publicly test it, and if they think it's going well, implement it. But hanging on to a mechanic that, when people run the numbers on it, allows for things to happen that cannot be recreated outside of the bonus in any scenario for no reason other then preserving the current ISK value of the ship line is ridiculous.

The problem is that the bonuses themselves are too strong.

Yes.

Cruor, Ashimmu, Daredevil and Vigilant all have 90% webs too. (And prior to Rubicon, the Kronos and Paladin did too).

Comparing mechanics is absolutely irreverent as it depends on the relative strength of the modules themselves. If the BR line had neuts that were 400% better than regular neuts, and neuts were stacking penalized then there would definitely be a problem there.

There are also modules in the game to counter ECM, as terrible a mechanic as it is.

Please enlighten us

At least for ECM you can respond with ECCM or info boosts which directly counter them, usually reducing the chances of a jam byaround 50% per ECCM.

I was going to argue some more but honestly..

I just can't think of a way to penetrate the thick wall of stupid Nightmare has put around himself.

75% webs would be a lot more balanced btw. It would still be very good but not omgwtfbbqOP

No they aren't.

The 90% web ship might not be able to hit you, but everything else in his fleet, XL Weapons included, can apply full DPS to you.

Slowing down someone's ship a lot is way more powerful than neuts for almost every ship in the game below BC size. The ability to get tracked by Size+2-3 Weapons. (Dreads/BS Turrets hitting linked max traversal AB Interceptors) is MUCH worse than having every single module shut off for an Interceptor. Interceptors can realistically base-speed tank all BS/Dread Turrets in an engagement providing they are not webbed/have poor traversal. Any active tank/module you can possibly realistically field not working on anything below a Cruiser (Which would get shut off by neuts) is almost always going to be better than getting tracked by everything on the field.

What I said doesn't only apply to Interceptors (Although they are the best example), it applies to almost every ship smaller than a Battlecruiser hull.

If the Vindicator is 'broken' without 90% webs, then I would say that the Vindicator is what is broken. And needs to get a new bonus to put it back on a similar power level. Changing all of the symptoms instead of the Problem is the much more complex and harder way.

They may be fully detailed but they've been based on very poor understandings of game mechanics, flailed all over the place in the face of the logic of others and in general, been a thoroughly entertaining to read.

I bet I'm not the only person that returns to this thread just to see what you write next.

Like every single other ship ? You are brilliant theorycrafter ...

Truth is that NightmareX and Nyancat are best proofs that Vindi and serpentis need nerf.

They have no idea how ships work in this game and yet they still do well.

Kinda against any logic , right ?

What we will hear now that TD and neuts destroy vindi ? I heard they destroy every turret ship. And no they don't destroy vindi who will hit anyway with 2x 90% webs target wont move so tracking and range wont be an issue.

Yes Vindi is immune to curse.

But you must understand that NightmareX will even think Vindi will be useless with 9,99% web bonus per level. Obviously ship will be useless and next Megathron ... sigh

Being able to wreck any ship smaller than itself is overpowered, whether you say it's 'the point' of the ship or not.

Calling the ship special doesn't make it okay to break everything.

It's still dumb, no matter how many times I read it.

"not allowing dreads to lock cruisers, destroyers and frigs"

Seriously? Did you seriously write that and actually mean it? You were sober and not on any drugs at the time, right?

You post on these forums as a joke, right? I can't even begin to explain how terrible this "fix" is. It's just indescribable how terrible your ideas are. Words simply do not exist in any known language- oh wait, I thought of a way:

There's a distinct difference between "not meant to shoot at something" and "artificially made utterly helpless against something". A Titan cannot DD a subcap but it can still lock them and shoot them. The guns do artificially reduced damage, which I also don't agree with (it's a band-aid fix, at best) but at least it can still lock them and shoot at them.

Your link pretty much confirms what I thought. You post on these forums as a joke, trying to troll people with your completely ridiculous posts.

You keep saying this, how you are an expert on Vindicators and no-one else is.

Wall of text

For the range counter: toe the line between 25 and 40km (point range with links, heat won't last long enough, but the Vindi only needs a cycle or two of webs with heat before he's on top of you). Alright, a decent counter. But you have to be paying a lot of attention, because if you get webbed even once you're done. No ifs ands or buts. You get tagged then there's no escape.

For MWD: Nope. Doesn't work. How many times do we have to say that if you get webbed then the Vindi is going to be going faster than you. Plain and simple. That's it. He's going to be MWDing faster than you. It doesn't matter which ship you're in. An Inteceptor or a Battleship, you're slower than the Vindicator.

For MJD. Alright. A decent counter. It'll work. Just hope he doesn't have a Scram on, though from what I've seen most Vindis don't run scrams.

For Neuts: Nope. Cap booster bitches. Anybody who has a Vindi without one is a ******* ****** and should go back to pre-school. Cap booster is more than enough to keep his guns and webs running.

Kill the ship: He has more DPS than you (barring capitals). He has better range control than you. He has probably about the same tank as you. Odds are unless you're swarming the Vindi, you aren't going to kill him before he kills you. This applies even for everything from T1 frigates to Pirate Battleships. Unless you can stay out of range, you die.

I'm seeing one valid counter here: MJD. That's it.

How has this 1200+ DPS Vindi not killed its target in 2 minutes, and if it hasn't, how isn't it so close to death that it'll be dead regardless? That's 144k EHP. No neut ship will have much more EHP than that if it's soloing. At that point you'll only need a couple more gun cycles to finish the job.

Of course if you mean in fleet fights, where's the Vindi's cap support? Logi exists, and if you're in a fleet you should be able to press the magical "needs cap" button to wish all your problems away.

http://i.imgur.com/J7hXads.png

How does tracking disruption help a curse againstvyou? You'll be going 3x or more faster than him. How does he get under your guns when you can eliminate hustle transversal bbecause you're faster than him? How does he keep outside of your range when you're faster than him? How do you not apply near full DPS when you are basically shooting an almost immobile target?

Cap Booster...

(Also stacking penalties on armour links)

[Um...

Inject cap charge, cycle on hardeners.

Hardeners have 20 second duration. They don't switch off until the end of the cycle. You can inject once every 12 seconds.


Do you really not know how to use a cap booster under neuts?

Doesn't matter how many neuts there are, you cannot get negative cap.


Cycle injector once, put all hardeners on. Wait until hardener cycle ends. Repeat.

Do you really not know how to do that?

Because you don't die and your fleet can still fight while you're primaried.

How were you using your guns in your "lol ehp" fit in your own example?

If you are flying a webless vindi, this might actually be the case.

how do you orbit something faster than you

you're hilarious

so? that's what is supposed to happen.

Im still confused as to how a curse is controlling range on a vindi when it is slower (and you are assuming an armor curse with no plate anyway)

Ok.

1) Curses almost never use scrams.
2) Curses almost never use afterburners
3) Even if 54.8 is the same as 56 (its pretty close) you still cant orbit a ship going the same speed as you
4) If the curse uses a mwd, its sig is now massively increased

So yes, a very hypothetical scram web mwd curse can control range under a single vindi web. However, it cannot convert this into getting under a vindicator's guns.

5) Most vindicators have 2 webs anyway
6) The vindicator also has a large dronebay, and 90% webbed cruisers get hit for full dps by ogres.

1. Sure you have
2. Sure they do
3. Not long enough to kill a vindicator
4. Mwd cycle is 10s. Vindi gets 2 shots off for ~7k damage every time the curse runs its mwd.
5. Sure they do
6. So the curse is now dual web fit, and it somehow has enough dps to kill an ogre before you recall it.

What does it do? Just ask people not to shoot while it gets in scram range?

Holy **** hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

So now you are claiming that the pilgrim is overpowered?

A Pilgrim is EVEN WORSE than a Curse. It will take a Pilgrim almost 2 minutes to cap out a Vindicator on base cap alone. Also you have only 5 mids on a Pilgrim. How are you going to run 3x Med neuts without an Injector. A Pilgrim will also take 6 minutes to kill a Vindicator even with everything on a Vindicator shut down.

"Guys i was aruging that an imaginary ship with bonus combinations that dont exist in game can kill a vindicator, so clearly the vindicator isnt overpowered"

Are you trying to tell us that highly specialized fit cruisers, (AB/Scram/Web/Dual TD) can kill solo Turret Battleships that don't have 90% webs, and don't have drones? I think we all already knew.

No one is talking about removing the webbing bonus on serpentis ships. Just reducing the percentage by which it increases web strength per level.

I'm gona stop actually posting arguements.. Instead i'm just gona go spend my time quoting things i think are absolutely hilarious



This one is priceless.



No nerfing, ever again! Bring back lol-range ECM!



Not before downtime it wont



Actually with a lot of ships supercarriers have a harder time hitting them if they are stationary because the drones orbit around instead of following behind. Thus outtracking themselves.

You will run into a similar thing if you use algos hammerheads on frigates. Vindi webs are mostly just used with dreads, not that they wouldn't be useful for other capitals as well.. Just not quite.



Wait damn it.. I made an arguement in that last one.. =<

And about the differences between 90% and 60% webs.. Well math says you are wrong, so do dps graphs. Webs are already a ridiculuously powerful module. Hench ships capable of using webs that are four times as powerful as normal webs or have many times the range is pretty op. Ships that can have 300k+ ehp and do that... Thats just down right silly.

The issues around 90% webs in general and blap dreads/titans especially has been an ongoing balance discussion for over a year.

Just because you aren't aware of something, doesn't mean it's not happening. You weren't aware that webs are stacking penalised, doesn't mean they suddenly didn't stack...

So you've moved from arguing to using logical fallacies?

bad,

Again, fallacy.

What posts have been made before is utterly irrelevant.

By arguing with NightmareX you're more r*tarded than him.