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RoCkEt X
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
51
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Posted - 2013.11.28 21:01:00 -
[91] - Quote
W0wbagger wrote:RoCkEt X wrote:
Since joining PL, i've chatted with several FC's, several of which were already aware of the mechanic, but ALL of them considered it to be at least a 'grey area' if not plainly an exploit.
While PHEW no longer exists, the members have since joined PL, the former PHEW pilots are a mere fraction of the people within PL capable of pulling this off with relative ease.
Previously, this was only possible to use against titans (except the ragnarok, which warps too fast anyway) because of the warp speed changes, it can now be used against any supercapital. Using MWD's will work for supers (to get into warp in 10 seconds, but not for titans, which take 2 cycles. While the mechanics stand as they currently are, it is not possible to safely log in any supercapital ship.
SOLUTION: My proposal for a solution was simple. When you undock for example, you have an invulnerability timer for 30 seconds. During this timer, you cannot be bumped or locked. The invulnerability is terminated when you activate a module, and allows you to be bumped.
The simplest solution to this would be to make ships that are logging in and warping back to their log-off spots invulnerable, until they land out of warp. This means, that in the e-warp spot, the ship would be unlock-able, unbumpable. Resolving the current issues completely.
Thoughts? -Rock
It's a possible solution but one that backtracks from what CCP presumably spent time and money implementing (modifying bubbles to work on ewarp login spots, as per masterplan's post). If CCP want to retain this functionality then the other solution would be to make ewarp cancel upon aggro (and obviously make the focused points work). MWD and something else (istabs/nomads) works fine for titans to avoid this. The basic thing CCP need to answer is - are you ok with people taking damage, being killable at login or not. If not - backtrack on masterplan's change and make them invulnerable, if yes then make it so that you can cancel ewarp on aggro.
you do realise, that while them modifying bubbles so that they do work is in the patch notes, it was never actually done. (Because we tested it, before we worked out we had to bump the target to stop it warping).
While masterplan is quite correct in his research, the patch notes are actually inaccurate, and do not reflect the actual changes made, and thus aren't relevant
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W0wbagger
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
47
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Posted - 2013.11.28 21:07:00 -
[92] - Quote
Of course, so do they fix the game or change the intention? I think the former is closer to the "Eve mantra" |
RoCkEt X
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
51
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Posted - 2013.11.28 21:33:00 -
[93] - Quote
W0wbagger wrote:Of course, so do they fix the game or change the intention? I think the former is closer to the "Eve mantra"
Presumably if they spent the development time and added it to the patch notes then didn't put it in - they should. I'd be pretty annoyed if they put a new ship in the notes and it just wasnt there. Obviously you are not a fan of the mechanic but does that mean it shouldnt be implemented? (Properly this time).
In response to your edit - if you are warping to your own titan and shooting it to aggro it - anyone else can too. Not ideal though admitedly, but we are discussing a feature that was meant to have been in the game for 18months, I guess no one got upset then as it didn't work and no one tried it barring some petitions to GMs who potentially didn't really understand the implication anyway.
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Kashmyta
Empire Assault Corp Dead Terrorists
72
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Posted - 2013.11.28 21:47:00 -
[94] - Quote
W0wbagger wrote:Of course, so do they fix the game or change the intention? I think the former is closer to the "Eve mantra"
Presumably if they spent the development time and added it to the patch notes then didn't put it in - they should. I'd be pretty annoyed if they put a new ship in the notes and it just wasnt there. Obviously you are not a fan of the mechanic but does that mean it shouldnt be implemented? (Properly this time).
In response to your edit - if you are warping to your own titan and shooting it to aggro it - anyone else can too. Not ideal though admitedly, but we are discussing a feature that was meant to have been in the game for 18months, I guess no one got upset then as it didn't work and no one tried it barring some petitions to GMs who potentially didn't really understand the implication anyway.
You guys knew that this (bumping to stop e-warp) had been petitioned though right? and that GM's had apparently said that this was not allowed?? |
W0wbagger
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
47
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Posted - 2013.11.28 21:49:00 -
[95] - Quote
Conjecture on our intentions is meaningless - and not really the point of this discussion we brought hics and it's standard practice to bump while lighting a cyno so the hics have a chance to lock, however:
In this case it died in about 20 seconds - 7 of our dreads didn't get on the mail - the first dread (moros) got 4 volleys off. It was only bumped once.
Quote:Therefore had to be aware that CCP did not intend for you to be able to kill the target."
Actually, I am aware from CCP Masterplans post that CCP do intend for me to be able to kill targets at login, hence I assumed the hic point not working was a bug, and used other means to interdict the target's warp. Being in lowsec, bumping seems like a good option.
If there is a bug here it is that ewarp is not cancelled by hic point. |
W0wbagger
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
47
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Posted - 2013.11.28 21:51:00 -
[96] - Quote
Kashmyta wrote:W0wbagger wrote:Of course, so do they fix the game or change the intention? I think the former is closer to the "Eve mantra"
Presumably if they spent the development time and added it to the patch notes then didn't put it in - they should. I'd be pretty annoyed if they put a new ship in the notes and it just wasnt there. Obviously you are not a fan of the mechanic but does that mean it shouldnt be implemented? (Properly this time).
In response to your edit - if you are warping to your own titan and shooting it to aggro it - anyone else can too. Not ideal though admitedly, but we are discussing a feature that was meant to have been in the game for 18months, I guess no one got upset then as it didn't work and no one tried it barring some petitions to GMs who potentially didn't really understand the implication anyway. You guys knew that this (bumping to stop e-warp) had been petitioned though right? and that GM's had apparently said that this was not allowed??
No of course not! This all came out after that all these guys had petitioned it. |
Allison A'vani
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
54
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Posted - 2013.11.28 21:59:00 -
[97] - Quote
Seems pretty simple to me, if it feels gray area then don't do it, or at least petition a GM first. This is common scene. |
Matt Emery
Hax.
2
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Posted - 2013.11.28 23:06:00 -
[98] - Quote
If you log at a pos, you should come back at a pos...
I mean, a pos has guns and will defend you, in space your all alone... effectively logging off looses all your advantages of setting up a pos :/
I just want a CCP answer on this, but I think being tackled and killed in an E-Warp spot is bullshit :/ |
Firefox4312 Yatolila
SILK R0AD
29
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Posted - 2013.11.28 23:56:00 -
[99] - Quote
RoCkEt X wrote:Firefox4312 Yatolila wrote:
So, CCP definitely needs to go through these mechanics and fix them as well as deem this as an exploit. Because if they flat out say it's not, that gives people like PL and PHEW the ability to do this without worrying about a ban at all.
My suggestion would be to do something along the lines of making any Super class hull a "Large Collidable Object" on login, so if anything does land on it to bump it, the super will act similar to POS towers, Stargates, Stations, and won't be affected by the bumps. This should only be limited to the ewarp phase itself, and once it's out of ewarp, that status condition (if you can call it that) should be gone, so the titan acts like it always has when bumps come into account.
Since joining PL, i've chatted with several FC's, several of which were already aware of the mechanic, but ALL of them considered it to be at least a 'grey area' if not plainly an exploit. While PHEW no longer exists, the members have since joined PL, the former PHEW pilots are a mere fraction of the people within PL capable of pulling this off with relative ease. Previously, this was only possible to use against titans (except the ragnarok, which warps too fast anyway) because of the warp speed changes, it can now be used against any supercapital. Using MWD's will work for supers (to get into warp in 10 seconds, but not for titans, which take 2 cycles. While the mechanics stand as they currently are, it is not possible to safely log in any supercapital ship. SOLUTION: My proposal for a solution was simple. When you undock for example, you have an invulnerability timer for 30 seconds. During this timer, you cannot be bumped or locked. The invulnerability is terminated when you activate a module, and allows you to be bumped. The simplest solution to this would be to make ships that are logging in and warping back to their log-off spots invulnerable, until they land out of warp. This means, that in the e-warp spot, the ship would be unlock-able, unbumpable. Resolving the current issues completely. Thoughts? -Rock
That would be along the lines of what I had said, with giving supers a status condition on login that disallows them to be bumped, and they're treated like Stations, Stargates, etc.. until the warp activates, once there you have the normal mechanics be taken into concern. Bubbles on poses won't stop the ewarp, etc.. and it gives a safe time to activate hardeners (if combat fit), and would disallow this blatant exploit to happen.
Even though CCP isn't calling it an exploit, it acts like one, and CCP devs should take a look into this mechanic to determine if exploitable or not. And if it is deemed an exploit, CCP should rework the mechanics behind ewarp to fix this.
As per the titan that was lost, which I think most everyone realizes it was bumped in an ewarp (hics on grid or not), that titan should be refunded if CCP does deem this mechanic an exploit, because if you lose something because of an exploit, it's the GM's job to make sure that doesn't happen. |
John Caffeine
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
19
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 02:06:00 -
[100] - Quote
W0wbagger wrote:Kashmyta wrote:W0wbagger wrote:Of course, so do they fix the game or change the intention? I think the former is closer to the "Eve mantra"
Presumably if they spent the development time and added it to the patch notes then didn't put it in - they should. I'd be pretty annoyed if they put a new ship in the notes and it just wasnt there. Obviously you are not a fan of the mechanic but does that mean it shouldnt be implemented? (Properly this time).
In response to your edit - if you are warping to your own titan and shooting it to aggro it - anyone else can too. Not ideal though admitedly, but we are discussing a feature that was meant to have been in the game for 18months, I guess no one got upset then as it didn't work and no one tried it barring some petitions to GMs who potentially didn't really understand the implication anyway. You guys knew that this (bumping to stop e-warp) had been petitioned though right? and that GM's had apparently said that this was not allowed?? No of course not! This all came out after that all these guys had petitioned it.
It's your own responsibility to petition tactics in the "gray area" and ask if it's an exploit or not before attempting it. I really hope for your sake you guys did that and a GM responded with "it's cool".
As for Masterplan's post, the only part of "bubbling at e-warp" that was ever actually implemented was the change where you won't e-warp out if your ship is already tackled when logging in. That means it's already agressed and tackled on login; i.e you log out while agressed, ship gets tackled in e-warp spot and you stay there when you log back in (before the change you'd just warp out of the bubbles). It seemed pretty clear to me at least that they decided not to implement what Masterplan mentioned, that they didn't want ships killed in e-warp spots while logging in (and not just relogging) and the fact that you couldn't point them at login-ewarp spots made it pretty clear.
The fact that the pilot would be unable to control his ship in any fashion beyond mods like hardeners is pretty damning on it's own. That's the same reason CCP deemed the freighter webbing an exploit: the freighter lost all control of his ship and couldn't cancel warp. So yeah, unless you guys actually did petition it (and got an ok from a GM), it really looks like you figured it would be deemed an exploit and decided to go ahead and just use it under the arguments "CCP hasn't issued a statement saying it's an exploit" and "this one Dev post from 2012 regarding mechanics that were never implemented and as such is entirely irrelevant said it was cool". Because anyone with half a brain would realize it's at least in the dark-grey area and that it should be petitioned first.
CCP Guard wrote:Not everybody knows this but we've always encouraged players to contact our GMs through support tickets before doing something they think MIGHT be an exploit. This is a no-strings-attached service to help you stay on the right side of things while enjoying the fruits of your creativity. Our GMs will give you a ruling on whether you can proceed or not, and all communication is of course in full confidence.
In a situation like this, when it's somewhere between "probably" and "almost certainly" an exploit, I'd say going ahead and using a tactic under the assumption it's ok until there's a public statement saying it isn't is a bold move indeed. I look forward to seeing if it pays off for you guys, and to see if CCP rules it a legit tactic or exploit.
(Btw I'm secretly rooting for you guys hoping they're cool with it 'cause holy **** dead supers/caps everwhere, I just strongly dislike being told I'm not allowed to do something only to see someone not bothering to ask get away with it. Which is basicly just CCP punishing the rest of us for checking with GMs first.) |
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Omega Crendraven
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
97
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 02:34:00 -
[101] - Quote
Don't hate their swag brah "Get fed, or die farming"-á "Better isk on wallet, than LP on ma' Journal" - Unknow LP farmer.
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Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2013.11.29 03:38:00 -
[102] - Quote
So we've discovered a way to methodically kill a large numbers of supercapitals.
I'm failing to see what the downside is here.
Why should CCP "fix" what might be the best thing to happen to this game in.... ever? |
Kaivar Lancer
Placid Peace Corps
363
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 06:01:00 -
[103] - Quote
hahaha |
Xolve
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2162
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 07:30:00 -
[104] - Quote
John Caffeine wrote:(Btw I'm secretly rooting for you guys hoping they're cool with it 'cause holy **** dead supers/caps everwhere, I just strongly dislike being told I'm not allowed to do something only to see someone not bothering to ask get away with it. Which is basicly just CCP punishing the rest of us for checking with GMs first.)
Pretty much this, regardless of CCP's ruling on the matter, Shadow Cartel can still say they pulled this off, the kill will still forever be API verified, and nobody can take that away from them.
HOWEVER, my main concern with the whole ordeal lies more in the arbitrary need to e-warp out of a POS (where, barring spies or a password) you should be as 'safe' as one could be in this abysmal game. Log out in a POS, Log in in a POS- seems like a pretty obvious change, that's more than warranted.
If this kill had happened anywhere else in space, outside of a POS on login, GG WP. Sadly, they will probably just band aide this **** with a session change invulnerability (where ships just pass through you) until they can figure out how to address fixing (or not fixing) this. |
Phi X
Malevolent Intentions Dead Terrorists
2
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Posted - 2013.11.29 08:11:00 -
[105] - Quote
I cant see how this should be legit, since your not actualy logged fully in before your out of the e.warp |
Setsune Rin
Collapsed Out Shadow Cartel
105
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 09:45:00 -
[106] - Quote
Xolve wrote:John Caffeine wrote:(Btw I'm secretly rooting for you guys hoping they're cool with it 'cause holy **** dead supers/caps everwhere, I just strongly dislike being told I'm not allowed to do something only to see someone not bothering to ask get away with it. Which is basicly just CCP punishing the rest of us for checking with GMs first.) Pretty much this, regardless of CCP's ruling on the matter, Shadow Cartel can still say they pulled this off, the kill will still forever be API verified, and nobody can take that away from them. HOWEVER, my main concern with the whole ordeal lies more in the arbitrary need to e-warp out of a POS (where, barring spies or a password) you should be as 'safe' as one could be in this abysmal game. Log out in a POS, Log in in a POS- seems like a pretty obvious change, that's more than warranted. If this kill had happened anywhere else in space, outside of a POS on login, GG WP. Sadly, they will probably just band aide this **** with a session change invulnerability (where ships just pass through you) until they can figure out how to address fixing (or not fixing) this.
correct me if i'm wrong, but when said POS is rapecaged/bubbled and you logg off inside the POS you dissapear and also reappear without e-warp don't you? |
Kashmyta
Empire Assault Corp Dead Terrorists
72
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 10:01:00 -
[107] - Quote
Setsune Rin wrote:Xolve wrote:John Caffeine wrote:(Btw I'm secretly rooting for you guys hoping they're cool with it 'cause holy **** dead supers/caps everwhere, I just strongly dislike being told I'm not allowed to do something only to see someone not bothering to ask get away with it. Which is basicly just CCP punishing the rest of us for checking with GMs first.) Pretty much this, regardless of CCP's ruling on the matter, Shadow Cartel can still say they pulled this off, the kill will still forever be API verified, and nobody can take that away from them. HOWEVER, my main concern with the whole ordeal lies more in the arbitrary need to e-warp out of a POS (where, barring spies or a password) you should be as 'safe' as one could be in this abysmal game. Log out in a POS, Log in in a POS- seems like a pretty obvious change, that's more than warranted. If this kill had happened anywhere else in space, outside of a POS on login, GG WP. Sadly, they will probably just band aide this **** with a session change invulnerability (where ships just pass through you) until they can figure out how to address fixing (or not fixing) this. correct me if i'm wrong, but when said POS is rapecaged/bubbled and you logg off inside the POS you dissapear and also reappear without e-warp don't you?
Still ewarp. |
Anoxim Acore
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
9
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Posted - 2013.11.29 10:51:00 -
[108] - Quote
Bumping a ship in order to get it stuck in emergency warp alignment limbo when its pilot logs in is now considered an exploit.
Ships undergoing emergency warp upon appearing in space have no means to activate modules, cancel warp, or otherwise defend themselves during this period; they cannot be stopped by any warp disruption mechanic. Bumping them during this period renders the ship in question utterly helpless, against the intention of the game mechanics.
Note: GÇóThis does not apply to pilots who get legitimately aggressed under normal game mechanics, preventing their ships from disappearing from space. Use safe logoff whenever possible. GÇóThis specifically applies to those pilots who disappear from space after logoff and appear again upon logging in.
Thank you for your attention. CCP Dolan | Community Representative
Twitter: @CCPDolan
Gooby pls
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=300515&find=unread
this is now a exploit |
John Caffeine
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
22
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Posted - 2013.11.29 10:53:00 -
[109] - Quote
Setsune Rin wrote:Xolve wrote:John Caffeine wrote:(Btw I'm secretly rooting for you guys hoping they're cool with it 'cause holy **** dead supers/caps everwhere, I just strongly dislike being told I'm not allowed to do something only to see someone not bothering to ask get away with it. Which is basicly just CCP punishing the rest of us for checking with GMs first.) Pretty much this, regardless of CCP's ruling on the matter, Shadow Cartel can still say they pulled this off, the kill will still forever be API verified, and nobody can take that away from them. HOWEVER, my main concern with the whole ordeal lies more in the arbitrary need to e-warp out of a POS (where, barring spies or a password) you should be as 'safe' as one could be in this abysmal game. Log out in a POS, Log in in a POS- seems like a pretty obvious change, that's more than warranted. If this kill had happened anywhere else in space, outside of a POS on login, GG WP. Sadly, they will probably just band aide this **** with a session change invulnerability (where ships just pass through you) until they can figure out how to address fixing (or not fixing) this. correct me if i'm wrong, but when said POS is rapecaged/bubbled and you logg off inside the POS you dissapear and also reappear without e-warp don't you?
You disappear without e-warp, but you appear with e-warp. So loging off is safe, loging on is not. |
ALUCARD 1208
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
206
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 11:20:00 -
[110] - Quote
stop me if im wrong but all this whining about him not being able to light a cyno is a mute point he was in dead terrorists home system maybe he coulda just screamed in one of his channels and people undock and warp to him after being fleeted.....
dont get me wrong im not defending the way in which they did this i think if you log in a pos you should appear in a pos and the bumping should be deemed a exploit .... btw any official response from ccp on this matter yet? GÖÑ HIGH FIVES GÖÑ-á |
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Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
714
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 13:16:00 -
[111] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote: .... btw any official response from ccp on this matter yet? Look 2-3 posts up.
Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
NoNah
Hyper-Nova
50
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 13:41:00 -
[112] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:stop me if im wrong but all this whining about him not being able to light a cyno is a mute point he was in dead terrorists home system maybe he coulda just screamed in one of his channels and people undock and warp to him after being fleeted.....
dont get me wrong im not defending the way in which they did this i think if you log in a pos you should appear in a pos and the bumping should be deemed a exploit .... btw any official response from ccp on this matter yet?
Lighting a cyno is a moot point. Doing anything at all is not. If waro could be cancelled the titan would not have died, simple as. |
ALUCARD 1208
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
206
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Posted - 2013.11.29 14:12:00 -
[113] - Quote
i do think the way in which you died was wrong nonah but how would canceling warp have saved you in the way you were fitted u still would have been sat there even allowing you to be pointed by a hic.
making people invuln on login is the only solution i see here so bumping ships will pass right through you GÖÑ HIGH FIVES GÖÑ-á |
NoNah
Hyper-Nova
50
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Posted - 2013.11.29 14:29:00 -
[114] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:i do think the way in which you died was wrong nonah but how would canceling warp have saved you in the way you were fitted u still would have been sat there even allowing you to be pointed by a hic.
making people invuln on login is the only solution i see here so bumping ships will pass right through you
You dont have to be aligned to jump. They only used one prober which means they had to warp a cynoship to the bumping ship and then light the cyno, then bridge, then lock then activate module.
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ALUCARD 1208
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
206
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Posted - 2013.11.29 14:34:00 -
[115] - Quote
i see thanks for clearing this up GÖÑ HIGH FIVES GÖÑ-á |
NickSuccorso
Arcana Imperii Ltd. Surely You're Joking
7
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Posted - 2013.11.29 14:52:00 -
[116] - Quote
To the OP: You are 100% on this one. 20-150 Bil Isk on ships that CCP has nerfed into one trick pony's.
Now CCP has changed the mechanics so that they can be killed without the ability to activate modules, fight back, or bring in help... that is mental... |
Firefox4312 Yatolila
SILK R0AD
29
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Posted - 2013.11.30 00:51:00 -
[117] - Quote
NickSuccorso wrote:To the OP: You are 100% on this one. 20-150 Bil Isk on ships that CCP has nerfed into one trick pony's.
Now CCP has changed the mechanics so that they can be killed without the ability to activate modules, fight back, or bring in help... that is mental...
Now said mechanics to kill a super is considered an exploit. Thus, ccp is slowly fixing this game. Still waiting for incarna stations. |
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