http://i.imgur.com/LRDda7e.jpg

[GÇô]DT_Saltire
Yup, probed on login and bumped during e-warp till dead :-(
Edit - well caught. /hat tip.

Gratz to SC for finally pulling of something that's only been theory for months.

Now that someone's actually pulled it off, maybe CCP will take it seriously.

HTFU and dont log in unless you have a cyno fitted and support nearby.

This seems very unfair. Unfair that PL can complain about unfair mechanics that is. HTFU and dont log in unless you have a cyno fitted and support nearby.

while I gotta give them mad props for actually pulling this off, I too find that this is a bit beyond game mechanics

there's a reason why you can't get pointed during the e-warp

I won't go as far as to say this is an exploit (it's within game mechanics after all) however I will say it is clearly broken or not "working as intended" and here is why.

When you log in a titan (or any ship for that matter) it immediately enters emergency warp, every normal method of interrupting this warp simply dos not work, more specifically; a) Ctrl-space, attempting to stop your ship has no effect (this also prevents you from cynoing, activating a cyno module or activating any offensive modules to allow you to fight back) and b) warp disruption modules, in this case focused points from a HIC, have no effect (the module will activate on the target but will not prevent that ship from warping off ... you can test this yourself quite easily). By this reasoning ccp's clear intention is that there should be no way to interrupt these emergency warps, therefore the ability for the ship to be bumped and / or targetted during this e-warp state is clearly flawed.

Heres the chain of events as i understand them

NoNah is bad, he exploited LP to earn a titan. then he lost his titan because he was bad...

Simple as that.

Good work Shadow Cartel!

I stole close on a trillion isk in supercapitals, should I have no right to claim that mechanics governing them are wrong because you're jealous?

Heres the chain of events as i understand them

NoNah is bad, he exploited LP to earn a titan. then he lost his titan because he was bad...

Simple as that.

Goon bot down!

Good work Shadow Cartel!

your personal gripes with Nonah or your former corp aside, my post was about broken game mechanics not the individuals involved in this particular case.

I won't derail this thread further by responding to your posts.

you're ********. The whole point of this is that you can't activate any lifeline modules - Cyno, neut, smartbomb, guns (lol) so why are you able to get bumped and curbstomped?

I have to take them into account every time i undock so i dont see why some scrub who exploited FW LP like a common goon to afford a titan doesnt have to as well lol.

Putting more risk into supercap ownership is not a bad thing for EVE.

how are you tacklable? you can't be bubbled, pointed, scrammed or webbed?
EXPLAIN MORE PLEASE, USE WORDS AND FORM SENTENCES

You cant interdicted when you log out. But when you log back in, if someone probes your immediate spawn point and infini-points you there, you can be.

Perhaps you need acquainting with the mechanics?


I could just about afford a titan if there was any fun in it. Seems a bit risky to own one right now thought, amirite?

You cant interdicted when you log out. But when you log back in, if someone probes your immediate spawn point and infini-points you there, you can be.

Perhaps you need acquainting with the mechanics?

You cant interdicted when you log out. But when you log back in, if someone probes your immediate spawn point and infini-points you there, you can be.

Perhaps you need acquainting with the mechanics?


I could just about afford a titan if there was any fun in it. Seems a bit risky to own one right now thought, amirite?

are you just saying words now? because it seems like an awful lot of effort to re-affirm your current sub-human status.

EMP is recruiting.

let me educate you about both supercapital warp mechanics as well as irony and basic level comprehension.

If i can try to understand.... SC used the current mechanics to probe and bump some scrubs super as it logged in and bumped and dps'd it until it died because it was travel fit, not 'log in fit' as per the new meta?

Thanks for explaining...

Doesnt really help your case. CCP can see (once notified) with very little effort that this particular titan was afforded by market manipulation of FW LP.

As for future situations, perhaps be more careful when you log in supers.

This seems very unfair. Unfair that PL can complain about unfair mechanics that is. HTFU and dont log in unless you have a cyno fitted and support nearby.

If i can try to understand.... SC used the current mechanics to probe and bump some scrubs super as it logged in and bumped and dps'd it until it died because it was travel fit, not 'log in fit' as per the new meta?

Thanks for explaining...

Doesnt really help your case. CCP can see (once notified) with very little effort that this particular titan was afforded by market manipulation of FW LP.

As for future situations, perhaps be more careful when you log in supers.

I am not up to bubbles (lowsec scrub you know) but i thought a bubble on the point where the ship starts his ewarp works? but like i said..lowsec scrub. ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1335076#post1335076 )

But I have to say that yes it is a silly mechanic, you shouldnt be at risk when logging back in. and ib4 "but you are on the KM with two toons" well.. yes.. I am also just a scrub who had no idea what was going on and that is all i will say about this incident.

If i log out safely in a pos, i should be able to log back in safely as well. and if CCP thinks what we did was an exploit then so be it. ill take the licks for that. But the mechanic is broken. quite clearly.

This should be regarded as an exploit for the simple reason that the guy in e-warp has absolutely no recourse from within the game. They're barred, by the e-warp mechanic, from exerting any manner of control over their own ship, ergo the e-warp mechanic should bar them from being interacted with by others. This was clearly the intent, given the fact that they can't be pointed, bubbled, or tackled in any way, they just didn't follow through with the rest of the game's mechanics.

No one else have done this because no one else have tried.

Mostly because our petitions asking CCP if this tactic was legit was answered by a firm "no, don't do this" and a GM looking sternly at us.

This seems very unfair. Unfair that PL can complain about unfair mechanics that is. HTFU and dont log in unless you have a cyno fitted and support nearby.

You cannot do anything, because you are technically still in warp, so you cannot cancel the warp, light cyno etc

Sounds like a completely broken mechanic to me. You should be able to use modules while in E-Warp. The outside POS bubble thing could be looked at (there should be inherent risks to a titan, being probed upon log in could be one of them, but not being able to defend yourself (such as no activating modules) is broken, so it needs changing). Then again there's still quite a bit of mechanics that still need tweaking in this game.


Anyway please keep the discussion related to the mechanics and not personal beefs with nonah. As much as I love seeing a former frog lose their titan it shouldn't be due to ****** mechanics.

Earned through broken mechanics, lost through broken mechanics. Hardly seems fair to complain.

Crosi

You seem to be really mad/jealous.

why so?

You can simply get an alt to light a cyno for you.

I personally think its wonderful that supers are at risk at least for a few moments of their existence lol

If someone manages to find this spot and bubble it before you align, they will now prevent your warp. They could always do this with targeted tackle, this change just makes bubbles consistent.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1335076#post1335076



Read that. CCP Masterplan says that being bubbled in Null at your Ewarp log in spot and killed is totally 100% fine as part of in game mechanics. He also says that Targeted tackle should work but *shrug* we all know that it doesn't.

Now in Low-Sec it is impossible to bubble and like I have already said we all know that for some reason targeted warp disruptors don't work so it was decided we would bump instead.

We all know that bumping is a legit game mechanic and have all used in whether on someone close to gate, getting something out of dock range or griefing a warping freighter.

So why would bumping a titan on a log in spot be different? CCP clearly makes them vulnerable in Null due to bubbles. I think it is more the case that targeted tackle is broken and you should be able to tackle with infini points in log-in spots.

Unless CCP want low-sec SC's to be invulnerable ans forever safe?

And if that is the case then it goes against EvE never being safe and never knowing what is going to happen next.

Mail

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1335076#post1335076



Read that. CCP Masterplan says that being bubbled in Null at your Ewarp log in spot and killed is totally 100% fine as part of in game mechanics. He also says that Targeted tackle should work but *shrug* we all know that it doesn't.

Now in Low-Sec it is impossible to bubble and like I have already said we all know that for some reason targeted warp disruptors don't work so it was decided we would bump instead.

We all know that bumping is a legit game mechanic and have all used in whether on someone close to gate, getting something out of dock range or griefing a warping freighter.

So why would bumping a titan on a log in spot be different? CCP clearly makes them vulnerable in Null due to bubbles. I think it is more the case that targeted tackle is broken and you should be able to tackle with infini points in log-in spots.

Unless CCP want low-sec SC's to be invulnerable ans forever safe?

And if that is the case then it goes against EvE never being safe and never knowing what is going to happen next.

Mail

f you logged out in a FF at a bubbled POS, you'll still warp back through bubbles surrounding the forcefield - it is only bubbles at the 1M km spot that have been changed to be able to disrupt a return e-warp.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1335076#post1335076



Read that. CCP Masterplan says that being bubbled in Null at your Ewarp log in spot and killed is totally 100% fine as part of in game mechanics. He also says that Targeted tackle should work but *shrug* we all know that it doesn't.

Now in Low-Sec it is impossible to bubble and like I have already said we all know that for some reason targeted warp disruptors don't work so it was decided we would bump instead.

We all know that bumping is a legit game mechanic and have all used in whether on someone close to gate, getting something out of dock range or griefing a warping freighter.

So why would bumping a titan on a log in spot be different? CCP clearly makes them vulnerable in Null due to bubbles. I think it is more the case that targeted tackle is broken and you should be able to tackle with infini points in log-in spots.

Unless CCP want low-sec SC's to be invulnerable ans forever safe?

And if that is the case then it goes against EvE never being safe and never knowing what is going to happen next.

Mail

This seems very unfair. Unfair that PL can complain about unfair mechanics that is. HTFU and dont log in unless you have a cyno fitted and support nearby.

You can simply get an alt to light a cyno for you.

I personally think its wonderful that supers are at risk at least for a few moments of their existence lol

You can simply get an alt to light a cyno for you.

Said a player that doesn't fly anything more expensive than cruisers for plexing.

pretty sure CCP has called that an exploit and only the greatest of tards would attempt it. GG

Really, i thought i was coming across as quite smug?

About half a year ago I've written a petition about the tactics/mechanics used today and if they are considered an exploit. The answer I got was something like "We're investigating this and do not recommend killing ships using this method until further notice. The team reserves the right to classify this as an exploit without prior warning."

So then why withhold this information from the general playerbase? As a CSM is it not your responsibility to communicate these things to the general eve public? Seems shoddy to me at best.

but i agree that there hasn't been an offiicial ccp response, and considering they knew about it there probably should be.

Grarr didn't rage
I'm afraid

I stole close on a trillion isk in supercapitals, should I have no right to claim that mechanics governing them are wrong because you're jealous?

I'd also like to see proof from PL or RnK where GM's specifically said "no" when it came to using this method to tackle/bump Supers. If so why not make this knowledge public from CCP? Did they only think people who asked may have known about it? If anything this will force CCP to look at ewarp and pos issues more seriously especially in tandem with Rubicons changes.

I think this is an exploit. And guys should be banned.
Also you need to ban guys who bumping the titan with cyno and titans jump in under pos when titan open portal.

Anyone else find his last sentence hard to read? Just curious...

Also I agree with a poster on the last page, if someone does get caught like the Erebus last night then he SHOULD be able to cancel warp and fight back (not that this guy could of...) but they should have the chance.

CCP need to change either the Ewarp mechanics so that when you log off in the POS you log back INTO the POS without moving OR they need to confirm that such actions SHOULD be allowed, make it so infini points and bubbles work correctly and the Ewarp is stopped so that the person attacked has the chance to live/fight.

I'm personally for the second. More risk for SC pilots, especially POS living bridge Titans can only be a good thing.

P.S I hope before CCP say one way or the other that PL/DT try and take one of our SC's in revenge or something. That would be hilarious and better than all this stupid forum whining!

Mail

I agree, there needs to be clarification for sure. As for the whining, i'm sure you boys would have questioned our actions if we caught you in the same way. We just need clarification as to whether this is a legitimate tactic.

Would the titan have lived if he could have fought back? no.

However, had the pilot known that e-warp bumping is acceptable method of being tackled i Highly doubt he would have logged in in the first place, given the circumstances and therefore it would have been avoided.

And for the record when the titan went down he was chill as ****, you would have thought it was just a frigate.

What I dislike is you can't even fight back. I don't mind losing a ship but losing it while completely unable to even go out swinging is just very very poor.

No you didn't :P

Typical circle jerking and **** posting aside, there is clearly an undefined grey area here in regards to not only emergency warp mechanics but also it's relevancy in specific systems ie null, low sec. As someone who was actually there on comms and in fleet standing by we had no detailed knowledge until cyno up and oh an Erebus.

If anything I see several points that need to be addressed:

1. CCP knows of ewarp issues yet failed to seriously look at them.

2. Logging off in a pos yet not logging back into the pos on log in was mentioned to be a coding issue therefore ewarp is the result and needs to be changed.

3. Rubicon's warp speed changes drastically altered ships vulnerabilities and this is just another jarring example.

I'd also like to see proof from PL or RnK where GM's specifically said "no" when it came to using this method to tackle/bump Supers. If so why not make this knowledge public from CCP? Did they only think people who asked may have known about it? If anything this will force CCP to look at ewarp and pos issues more seriously especially in tandem with Rubicons changes.

Irregardless it was an awesome kill and thanks to everyone who made it happen.

Lets face the obvious here guys.

If this was a legit mechanic, does anyone really believe that Shadow Cartel, of all people, would have been the first to use it?

Please.

So, CCP definitely needs to go through these mechanics and fix them as well as deem this as an exploit. Because if they flat out say it's not, that gives people like PL and PHEW the ability to do this without worrying about a ban at all.

My suggestion would be to do something along the lines of making any Super class hull a "Large Collidable Object" on login, so if anything does land on it to bump it, the super will act similar to POS towers, Stargates, Stations, and won't be affected by the bumps. This should only be limited to the ewarp phase itself, and once it's out of ewarp, that status condition (if you can call it that) should be gone, so the titan acts like it always has when bumps come into account.

Since joining PL, i've chatted with several FC's, several of which were already aware of the mechanic, but ALL of them considered it to be at least a 'grey area' if not plainly an exploit.

While PHEW no longer exists, the members have since joined PL, the former PHEW pilots are a mere fraction of the people within PL capable of pulling this off with relative ease.

Previously, this was only possible to use against titans (except the ragnarok, which warps too fast anyway) because of the warp speed changes, it can now be used against any supercapital. Using MWD's will work for supers (to get into warp in 10 seconds, but not for titans, which take 2 cycles. While the mechanics stand as they currently are, it is not possible to safely log in any supercapital ship.


SOLUTION:
My proposal for a solution was simple. When you undock for example, you have an invulnerability timer for 30 seconds. During this timer, you cannot be bumped or locked. The invulnerability is terminated when you activate a module, and allows you to be bumped.

The simplest solution to this would be to make ships that are logging in and warping back to their log-off spots invulnerable, until they land out of warp. This means, that in the e-warp spot, the ship would be unlock-able, unbumpable. Resolving the current issues completely.



Thoughts?
-Rock

Since joining PL, i've chatted with several FC's, several of which were already aware of the mechanic, but ALL of them considered it to be at least a 'grey area' if not plainly an exploit.

While PHEW no longer exists, the members have since joined PL, the former PHEW pilots are a mere fraction of the people within PL capable of pulling this off with relative ease.

Previously, this was only possible to use against titans (except the ragnarok, which warps too fast anyway) because of the warp speed changes, it can now be used against any supercapital. Using MWD's will work for supers (to get into warp in 10 seconds, but not for titans, which take 2 cycles. While the mechanics stand as they currently are, it is not possible to safely log in any supercapital ship.



SOLUTION:
My proposal for a solution was simple. When you undock for example, you have an invulnerability timer for 30 seconds. During this timer, you cannot be bumped or locked. The invulnerability is terminated when you activate a module, and allows you to be bumped.

The simplest solution to this would be to make ships that are logging in and warping back to their log-off spots invulnerable, until they land out of warp. This means, that in the e-warp spot, the ship would be unlock-able, unbumpable. Resolving the current issues completely.



Thoughts?
-Rock

It's a possible solution but one that backtracks from what CCP presumably spent time and money implementing (modifying bubbles to work on ewarp login spots, as per masterplan's post).
If CCP want to retain this functionality then the other solution would be to make ewarp cancel upon aggro (and obviously make the focused points work).

MWD and something else (istabs/nomads) works fine for titans to avoid this.

The basic thing CCP need to answer is - are you ok with people taking damage, being killable at login or not. If not - backtrack on masterplan's change and make them invulnerable, if yes then make it so that you can cancel ewarp on aggro.

Of course, so do they fix the game or change the intention? I think the former is closer to the "Eve mantra"

Presumably if they spent the development time and added it to the patch notes then didn't put it in - they should.
I'd be pretty annoyed if they put a new ship in the notes and it just wasnt there. Obviously you are not a fan of the mechanic but does that mean it shouldnt be implemented? (Properly this time).

In response to your edit - if you are warping to your own titan and shooting it to aggro it - anyone else can too. Not ideal though admitedly, but we are discussing a feature that was meant to have been in the game for 18months, I guess no one got upset then as it didn't work and no one tried it barring some petitions to GMs who potentially didn't really understand the implication anyway.

Of course, so do they fix the game or change the intention? I think the former is closer to the "Eve mantra"

Presumably if they spent the development time and added it to the patch notes then didn't put it in - they should.
I'd be pretty annoyed if they put a new ship in the notes and it just wasnt there. Obviously you are not a fan of the mechanic but does that mean it shouldnt be implemented? (Properly this time).

In response to your edit - if you are warping to your own titan and shooting it to aggro it - anyone else can too. Not ideal though admitedly, but we are discussing a feature that was meant to have been in the game for 18months, I guess no one got upset then as it didn't work and no one tried it barring some petitions to GMs who potentially didn't really understand the implication anyway.

Therefore had to be aware that CCP did not intend for you to be able to kill the target."

You guys knew that this (bumping to stop e-warp) had been petitioned though right? and that GM's had apparently said that this was not allowed??

Since joining PL, i've chatted with several FC's, several of which were already aware of the mechanic, but ALL of them considered it to be at least a 'grey area' if not plainly an exploit.

While PHEW no longer exists, the members have since joined PL, the former PHEW pilots are a mere fraction of the people within PL capable of pulling this off with relative ease.

Previously, this was only possible to use against titans (except the ragnarok, which warps too fast anyway) because of the warp speed changes, it can now be used against any supercapital. Using MWD's will work for supers (to get into warp in 10 seconds, but not for titans, which take 2 cycles. While the mechanics stand as they currently are, it is not possible to safely log in any supercapital ship.



SOLUTION:
My proposal for a solution was simple. When you undock for example, you have an invulnerability timer for 30 seconds. During this timer, you cannot be bumped or locked. The invulnerability is terminated when you activate a module, and allows you to be bumped.

The simplest solution to this would be to make ships that are logging in and warping back to their log-off spots invulnerable, until they land out of warp. This means, that in the e-warp spot, the ship would be unlock-able, unbumpable. Resolving the current issues completely.



Thoughts?
-Rock

No of course not! This all came out after that all these guys had petitioned it.

Not everybody knows this but we've always encouraged players to contact our GMs through support tickets before doing something they think MIGHT be an exploit. This is a no-strings-attached service to help you stay on the right side of things while enjoying the fruits of your creativity. Our GMs will give you a ruling on whether you can proceed or not, and all communication is of course in full confidence.

(Btw I'm secretly rooting for you guys hoping they're cool with it 'cause holy **** dead supers/caps everwhere, I just strongly dislike being told I'm not allowed to do something only to see someone not bothering to ask get away with it. Which is basicly just CCP punishing the rest of us for checking with GMs first.)

Pretty much this, regardless of CCP's ruling on the matter, Shadow Cartel can still say they pulled this off, the kill will still forever be API verified, and nobody can take that away from them.


HOWEVER, my main concern with the whole ordeal lies more in the arbitrary need to e-warp out of a POS (where, barring spies or a password) you should be as 'safe' as one could be in this abysmal game. Log out in a POS, Log in in a POS- seems like a pretty obvious change, that's more than warranted.

If this kill had happened anywhere else in space, outside of a POS on login, GG WP. Sadly, they will probably just band aide this **** with a session change invulnerability (where ships just pass through you) until they can figure out how to address fixing (or not fixing) this.

correct me if i'm wrong, but when said POS is rapecaged/bubbled and you logg off inside the POS you dissapear and also reappear without e-warp don't you?

correct me if i'm wrong, but when said POS is rapecaged/bubbled and you logg off inside the POS you dissapear and also reappear without e-warp don't you?

.... btw any official response from ccp on this matter yet?

stop me if im wrong but all this whining about him not being able to light a cyno is a mute point he was in dead terrorists home system maybe he coulda just screamed in one of his channels and people undock and warp to him after being fleeted.....

dont get me wrong im not defending the way in which they did this i think if you log in a pos you should appear in a pos and the bumping should be deemed a exploit .... btw any official response from ccp on this matter yet?

i do think the way in which you died was wrong nonah but how would canceling warp have saved you in the way you were fitted u still would have been sat there even allowing you to be pointed by a hic.

making people invuln on login is the only solution i see here so bumping ships will pass right through you

To the OP: You are 100% on this one. 20-150 Bil Isk on ships that CCP has nerfed into one trick pony's.

Now CCP has changed the mechanics so that they can be killed without the ability to activate modules, fight back, or bring in help... that is mental...