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Does anyone wants active skills?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Pouah	Posted - 2006.02.27 20:16:00 - [1] Is CCP planning to implant active skills in the game someday? I'm thinking about skills you have to activate. Something independant of our modules. I wonder if it would ruin the game and makes it like any other mmorpg or take the complexity and strategy of PvP and PvE to a new level. What do you think?
Cairo dog	Posted - 2006.02.27 20:17:00 - [2] Explain a little more? ------------------------------------- Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but someday I will
Arakasai	Posted - 2006.02.27 20:19:00 - [3] Like: Click the uber defense button, for 40 seconds your Resistances are upped by %5 per level of the skill. Then it takes 1 hour to reset. IE making it a little more character based and a little less ship based. I hope they never do this.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.02.27 20:31:00 - [4] In games like World of Warcrap, an active skill is one you click on and it does something. Like in Earth and Beyond, "Mining" was an active skill-you would target an asteroid and mine, rather than activate a mining laser. Or you would active the "Environmental Shield" skill to shield yourself from dangerous radiation. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Mark Badger	Posted - 2006.02.27 20:44:00 - [5] I hope they don't do it... it'g going to look like WOW...
Nikolai Nuvolari	Posted - 2006.02.27 20:48:00 - [6] Meh, not interested. This really does nothing that modules don't. -------------------------------------[04:04:04] Tom Thumb > for a nut case you rawk [04:21:15] Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw [07:38:53] Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108! Stop whining about my signature - Wrangler \o/ ~kieron [\"] -Capsicum <3 -eris you wanted colours now you have them :) -eris..again Donuts and cAKe anyone? Jacques' Nikolai can post twice as fast as me, and i'm uber -zhuge liang Uhm, I'm new to this, does this work? clickety Oveur
Kage Getsu	Posted - 2006.02.27 21:13:00 - [7] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Meh, not interested. This really does nothing that modules don't. Exactly. The modules on your ship are the active skills you have equipped. You want different functionality, you equip different modules. There's no need in this system for character skills, which would be a balancing nightmare. _________________________________________________________
Wendat Huron	Posted - 2006.02.27 21:25:00 - [8] I would some day like to be a master prober, I can't triangulate worth crap.
Failin Zhar	Posted - 2006.02.27 21:34:00 - [9] Originally by: Wendat Huron I would some day like to be a master prober, I can't triangulate worth crap. I know what you mean, probing can be SO fun! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2006.02.27 21:45:00 - [10] I think combat boosters are going to be the closest thing we'll get to this...
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.02.27 22:01:00 - [11] yeeehooooo! i want to cast defensive spells round my cerby! sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault Stop spamming with "QFT" >:\|. - Teblin
Montague Zooma	Posted - 2006.02.27 22:29:00 - [12] OMG Eve is just like WOW 'cause it's massively multiplayer!!! Corps...are guilds! Gangs...are groups! NOOOO! CCP please remove these features immediately! ------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.02.27 22:30:00 - [13] Originally by: Montague Zooma OMG Eve is just like WOW 'cause it's massively multiplayer!!! Corps...are guilds! Gangs...are groups! NOOOO! CCP please remove these features immediately! How is this post relevant? Active skills are a stereotypical feature of "standard" MMOs and should not be included in EVE. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Asane	Posted - 2006.02.27 22:33:00 - [14] But we have active skills..? They're called equipment...
Slink Grinsdikild	Posted - 2006.02.27 22:35:00 - [15] No thanks, I log on to EVE now and then because compared to other MMO's im playing it is relatively free of absolute I-Win buttons. Introducing active skills to EVE would be a disaster
Izo Azlion	Posted - 2006.02.27 22:39:00 - [16] I dont want more stuff on the UI. I think the trainings fine how it is. Let us que one skill after the one we're currently training. That would rock. just to be able to que a skill <3 Fly safe
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.02.27 22:39:00 - [17] Originally by: Slink Grinsdikild No thanks, I log on to EVE now and then because compared to other MMO's im playing it is relatively free of absolute I-Win buttons. i beg to differ sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault Stop spamming with "QFT" >:\|. - Teblin
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.02.27 22:41:00 - [18] Originally by: Asane But we have active skills..? They're called equipment... But they're not skills. You choose whether or not to put them on a ship, and they take up space and fitting requirements. They don't come with you wherever you go; imagine if warp scrambling was a skill! [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Kurren	Posted - 2006.02.27 22:58:00 - [19] Originally by: Failin Zhar Originally by: Wendat Huron I would some day like to be a master prober, I can't triangulate worth crap. I know what you mean, probing can be SO fun! --- --- --- --- SobaKai.com
Gonada	Posted - 2006.02.27 23:53:00 - [20] But they're not skills --------------------- your right, they are modules that work according to your skill. if you want daoc, eq/wow type fantasy skills go play those games, -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
Failin Zhar	Posted - 2006.02.28 00:29:00 - [21] Edited by: Failin Zhar on 28/02/2006 00:29:58 Originally by: HippoKing i beg to differ You can beg all you want, I'll make Parmizan grate you all night long anyway! edit I want a rez spell in EVE. And a pally bubble mod to. And a create exotic dancer spell. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
Testy McServer	Posted - 2006.02.28 00:35:00 - [22] Edited by: Testy McServer on 28/02/2006 00:35:25 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Montague Zooma OMG Eve is just like WOW 'cause it's massively multiplayer!!! Corps...are guilds! Gangs...are groups! NOOOO! CCP please remove these features immediately! How is this post relevant? Active skills are a stereotypical feature of "standard" MMOs and should not be included in EVE. Well dark, although I disagree with the OP, his post did make a lot of sense, and yours didn't. You just proved his point. Corps and Gangs are "typical features" of MMO's as well, we shouldn't write them off right away. I think he's trying to say that the devs at ccp might be able to make it better than other MMO's, which is why we all play EVE. edit: spelling
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.02.28 00:38:00 - [23] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 28/02/2006 00:38:18 Originally by: Testy McServer Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Montague Zooma OMG Eve is just like WOW 'cause it's massively multiplayer!!! Corps...are guilds! Gangs...are groups! NOOOO! CCP please remove these features immediately! How is this post relevant? Active skills are a stereotypical feature of "standard" MMOs and should not be included in EVE. Well dark, although I disagree with the OP, his post did make a lot of sense, and yours didn't. You just proved his point. Corps and Gangs are "typical features" of MMO's as well, we shouldn't write them off right away. I think he's trying to say that the devs at ccp might be able to make it better than other MMO's, which is why we all play EVE. Neither you nor the OP have yet to post a single valid reason why EVE should have active skills. Everyone else has posted plenty of valid reasons why EVE should not. Until you have such reasons, there's no point in you posting. P.S. Post with a main. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.02.28 00:50:00 - [24] Edited by: MOOstradamus on 28/02/2006 00:51:01 /me thinks Active Skills would just be like having pilot modules in conjunction with ship modules - and as such can't see a problem with them if properly implemented (ie: highly specialised reqs & limited use) .. Quote: P.S. Post with a main. P.S. Post with a clue MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
Wrayeth	Posted - 2006.02.28 00:51:00 - [25] Active skills would make the game less about intelligent fittings and player skill and more about character skill. I vote no. -Wrayeth
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.02.28 00:58:00 - [26] Originally by: MOOstradamus Edited by: MOOstradamus on 28/02/2006 00:51:01 /me thinks Active Skills would just be like having pilot modules in conjunction with ship modules - and as such can't see a problem with them if properly implemented (ie: highly specialised reqs & limited use) .. That doesn't make much sense--would it be like fitting modules to your pod or something? Or uber Jove psychic powers? [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Montague Zooma	Posted - 2006.02.28 00:59:00 - [27] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Montague Zooma OMG Eve is just like WOW 'cause it's massively multiplayer!!! Corps...are guilds! Gangs...are groups! NOOOO! CCP please remove these features immediately! How is this post relevant? Active skills are a stereotypical feature of "standard" MMOs and should not be included in EVE. Eve has plenty of features and characteristics in common with "standard" MMOs. If we got rid of everything that isn't unique to Eve, you wouldn't have much of a game to play. I mean, really, what's the difference between the various equipment mods on our ships and the various pieces of armor a fantasy character equips? Or a clone and a rez? They serve the same purpose. Oppose active skills for gameplay reasons, not because "they're just like WOW". I play Eve, not "anything but WOW". I'm so tired of people having hissy fits because something-or-other resembles WOW. ------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk.
Mephesto Nizal	Posted - 2006.02.28 01:01:00 - [28] all skills learned are used 'activly' by your character ;)
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.02.28 01:02:00 - [29] Originally by: Montague Zooma Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Montague Zooma OMG Eve is just like WOW 'cause it's massively multiplayer!!! Corps...are guilds! Gangs...are groups! NOOOO! CCP please remove these features immediately! How is this post relevant? Active skills are a stereotypical feature of "standard" MMOs and should not be included in EVE. Eve has plenty of features and characteristics in common with "standard" MMOs. If we got rid of everything that isn't unique to Eve, you wouldn't have much of a game to play. I mean, really, what's the difference between the various equipment mods on our ships and the various pieces of armor a fantasy character equips? Or a clone and a rez? They serve the same purpose. Oppose active skills for gameplay reasons, not because "they're just like WOW". I play Eve, not "anything but WOW". I'm so tired of people having hissy fits because something-or-other resembles WOW. Just as Night Elves wouldn't make much sense in EVE, neither would active skills. It has nothing to do with "nothing but WoW" syndrome--its simply a matter of the fact that EVE is in many ways (but not all ways) different, and one of those differences is that what your ship can do soley depends on how you set it up. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Testy McServer	Posted - 2006.02.28 01:14:00 - [30] Originally by: Dark Shikari -Snippedy do da! Snippedy Day!- P.S. Post with a main. sorry. When I first made my character quite a while ago I put him in the middle slot accidently for some reason. So whenever i go to post my Alt is defaulted, and its to much trouble for me to change. My main is "Double TaP" if youre interested in talking to me in-game or arguing some sort of opinion though.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.02.28 01:25:00 - [31] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 28/02/2006 01:29:12 Originally by: Testy McServer Originally by: Dark Shikari -Snippedy do da! Snippedy Day!- P.S. Post with a main. sorry. When I first made my character quite a while ago I put him in the middle slot accidently for some reason. So whenever i go to post my Alt is defaulted, and its to much trouble for me to change. My main is "Double TaP" if youre interested in talking to me in-game or arguing some sort of opinion though. In that case, hit Settings button to your left to set the default character Sorry for being overly harsh there [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Double TaP	Posted - 2006.02.28 01:43:00 - [32] yay. double is default. w00t
Montague Zooma	Posted - 2006.02.28 05:49:00 - [33] Originally by: Dark Shikari It has nothing to do with "nothing but WoW" syndrome--its simply a matter of the fact that EVE is in many ways (but not all ways) different, and one of those differences is that what your ship can do soley depends on how you set it up. Not solely...what you can do with your ship also depends on which skills you have trained and how high you have trained those skills. From one perspective, Eve is all about skills...so it's not much of a stretch to contemplate "active skills". Originally by: Mephesto Nizal all skills learned are used 'activly' by your character ;) That's a very good observation. I don't think "active skills" in general would be a harmful addition...but existing game mechanics seem to adequately provide such effects via skills, implants and modules. ------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk.
Rache	Posted - 2006.02.28 07:29:00 - [34] Why do you don't trust in CCP ability to gamedesign eve further? They did a great job with both design & balance up til now. I don't think they will introduce something that will 'ruin gameplay'. Let's just wait & see til more information is available instead of saying 'never, never, never'.
Montero	Posted - 2006.02.28 08:24:00 - [35] while we're at it can i have a +5 Claw of ownage?
James Lyrus	Posted - 2006.02.28 08:31:00 - [36] I don't want "Active Skills". In my opinion the EVE paradigm of skills serving as an enabler and enhancer for modules, and selecting which modules you fit is as comprehensive as is necessary. As it stands, that means if I'm flying a mining barge, a newbie in a frigate will probably win, simply because I can't fit modules to take advantage of my high gunnery/engineering etc. skills. If there were active skills, then some of that would be taken away - the active skills would become far too important. -- We are recruiting We sell carriers.
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.02.28 08:33:00 - [37] Originally by: James Lyrus I don't want "Active Skills". In my opinion the EVE paradigm of skills serving as an enabler and enhancer for modules, and selecting which modules you fit is as comprehensive as is necessary. As it stands, that means if I'm flying a mining barge, a newbie in a frigate will probably win, simply because I can't fit modules to take advantage of my high gunnery/engineering etc. skills. If there were active skills, then some of that would be taken away - the active skills would become far too important. QFT.. but if we do get active skills... I want bloodlust ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Herko Kerghans	Posted - 2006.02.28 08:42:00 - [38] Edited by: Herko Kerghans on 28/02/2006 08:43:31 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: MOOstradamus Edited by: MOOstradamus on 28/02/2006 00:51:01 /me thinks Active Skills would just be like having pilot modules in conjunction with ship modules That doesn't make much sense--would it be like fitting modules to your pod or something? Or uber Jove psychic powers? Hum... you could have 'active implants'. At least in principle, why not? Say, the Rogue CY-1 now gives you a 3% increase in speed. What if you had a Rogue CY-1X that, upon activaction, gave you a 8% (or whatever?) Of course, you would have to introduce some new "bars" (the equivalente of cap for our characters), and should have downsizes for their use... but in principle, why not? EDIT: damned typos, they are everywhere!! Barriers - an EVE novel
Kaliopeia	Posted - 2006.02.28 08:47:00 - [39] It's certainly worth discussing, but I agree that one of the charms of Eve is that your ship is what you are.
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.02.28 15:03:00 - [40] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: MOOstradamus Edited by: MOOstradamus on 28/02/2006 00:51:01 /me thinks Active Skills would just be like having pilot modules in conjunction with ship modules - and as such can't see a problem with them if properly implemented (ie: highly specialised reqs & limited use) .. That doesn't make much sense--would it be like fitting modules to your pod or something? Or uber Jove psychic powers? I suggest you re-read how skillbooks work and in a similar manner to The MATRIX are jacked into our brains. Hence this actually makes perfect sense MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
Grimwalius d'Antan	Posted - 2006.02.28 15:09:00 - [41] Explain to me, in a game design perspective, how this would benefit the game. It doesn't, it is a redundant feature. You're basically putting another pistol into the arsenal already consisting of 8 different pistols. Griefing is to ruin a friendly game, which Eve is not.
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.02.28 15:10:00 - [42] Originally by: Herko Kerghans Edited by: Herko Kerghans on 28/02/2006 08:43:31 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: MOOstradamus Edited by: MOOstradamus on 28/02/2006 00:51:01 /me thinks Active Skills would just be like having pilot modules in conjunction with ship modules That doesn't make much sense--would it be like fitting modules to your pod or something? Or uber Jove psychic powers? Hum... you could have 'active implants'. At least in principle, why not? Say, the Rogue CY-1 now gives you a 3% increase in speed. What if you had a Rogue CY-1X that, upon activaction, gave you a 8% (or whatever?) Of course, you would have to introduce some new "bars" (the equivalente of cap for our characters), and should have downsizes for their use... but in principle, why not? EDIT: damned typos, they are everywhere!! I really can't put into words why, but god that idea sucks so bad. For EVE that is.! ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Zonna Observator	Posted - 2006.02.28 15:57:00 - [43] How the skill to kill a Yak? Form hundred miles away... with mind bullets!!
Calderio	Posted - 2006.02.28 16:04:00 - [44] such a skill does apeal to me. i can go on with how eve is expanding itself and yada yada yada but im not ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ RIP Kevin Wessel, Age 20, Departed April 19 2005, Baghdad
Asane	Posted - 2006.02.28 16:16:00 - [45] Edited by: Asane on 28/02/2006 16:19:12 Imagine this: I got a Ragnarok, you got a Bestower... What skill in the world could ever save you? You're in a SHIP! I don't care for how much leet kung-fu skills you got or how many firebolts you can cast or how many imps you can summon, I will still blow you into tiny, tiny, tiny bits, together with tiny, tiny, tiny bits of pyres, and a few tiny, tiny, tiny bits of imp limbs.. The sensemoral in this story? There's no 'active' skill in the world that could help you.. Without bringing in elves into the game and... well... Then I will personally travel to CCP, smite every single one of the staff, **** in their fridge, and eat all the cheese.
Sharaka	Posted - 2006.02.28 16:53:00 - [46] I think people are going a bit off the deep end in all the anti-(any other MMO) sentiments. There is no reason this couldn't work in EVE and it reflects realistic aspects of our situation as pod pilots. We are moderately human and humans are more than just what they pick up from skill books. We have highs and lows. We exert special effort and need to recover afterwards. This is what could be "active skills" in EVE. And nobody said to copy other MMO. But at the same time there is no harm in adapting concepts to improve this game. I mean if you really think it is just about fitting the ship and how fast you can hit F1-F8 then that doesn't sound like a very skillful game. In fact as we all know there is a lot more to it. Some on the strategic level - where and when to fight. And some on the tactical as in which weapons to deploy, positions to adopt etc. You could add to that performance-enhancing abilities which had to be activated and had a recovery time before re-use. It would be another level of skill to bring into combat. I suppose that the counter-argument is that it's all up to the machinery and nothing we can do as pilots is going to make any difference. But think about it. By learning a skill from a book I gain constant additional speed for my ship. How different is it to learn a skill that lets me overload the drive for 60 seconds to gain speed (or agility or anything else that makes any sense). And just as logically it takes the crew time to repair the damage I cause doing it before I can do it again.
Asane	Posted - 2006.02.28 16:57:00 - [47] Originally by: Sharaka snippity I suppose that the counter-argument is that it's all up to the machinery and nothing we can do as pilots is going to make any difference. But think about it. By learning a skill from a book I gain constant additional speed for my ship. How different is it to learn a skill that lets me overload the drive for 60 seconds to gain speed (or agility or anything else that makes any sense). And just as logically it takes the crew time to repair the damage I cause doing it before I can do it again. Now I imagine you got a great solution on how to trim the ship from inside your pod too? Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
Sharaka	Posted - 2006.02.28 17:09:00 - [48] Edited by: Sharaka on 28/02/2006 17:10:59 Quote: Now I imagine you got a great solution on how to trim the ship from inside your pod too? Well only if you explain how what I read in that skillboook makes it faster Actually it wouldn't be that difficult with full cybernetic interfacing with ships systems to learn how to bypass a safety here and there for a temporary benefit. It can be explained very easily for anyone willing to listen. An awful lot of good SF involves people learning how to beat the limitations of their ships under stress. I don't think the concept is game-breaking and properly implemented it could be very good.
Asane	Posted - 2006.02.28 17:12:00 - [49] First of all, just dock and go fix it, done :P As for good SF, this is not good SF, this calculated reality, quite a difference Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
Corunna ElMan	Posted - 2006.02.28 17:21:00 - [50] Originally by: MOOstradamus I suggest you re-read how skillbooks work and in a similar manner to The MATRIX are jacked into our brains. Hence this actually makes perfect sense Well, then - in that case, it's already being done and isn't necessary to be added. Next! I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions?
Corunna ElMan	Posted - 2006.02.28 17:22:00 - [51] Originally by: Zonna Observator How the skill to kill a Yak? Form hundred miles away... with mind bullets!! That's telekinesis, Kyle. How about the power... to move you? I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions?
Kurren	Posted - 2006.02.28 17:27:00 - [52] Originally by: Mephesto Nizal all skills learned are used 'activly' by your character ;) Just QFEing --- --- --- --- SobaKai.com
Asane	Posted - 2006.02.28 17:29:00 - [53] Originally by: Kurren Originally by: Mephesto Nizal all skills learned are used 'activly' by your character ;) Just QFEing Quoted For Erection? Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.02.28 18:00:00 - [54] Originally by: Corunna ElMan Originally by: MOOstradamus I suggest you re-read how skillbooks work and in a similar manner to The MATRIX are jacked into our brains. Hence this actually makes perfect sense Well, then - in that case, it's already being done and isn't necessary to be added. Next! I look forward to your complaints and refusal to use Boosters when they come in - as they're just another form of time sensitive Active skills MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
Gonada	Posted - 2006.02.28 19:34:00 - [55] the point is , al the "skills" talk is coming from a crowd that has come from the hack and slash , fantasy genre. this is a sci fi game, therefore the skills have no place unles they can be totally associated with such. and since theres no way you can make skills such as " bloodlust", its a moot point. -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
Yarod Cool	Posted - 2006.02.28 19:53:00 - [56] Originally by: MOOstradamus I look forward to your complaints and refusal to use Boosters when they come in - as they're just another form of time sensitive Active skills Drugs... I like! --Yarod Cool Team JAVELIN
Swamp Ziro	Posted - 2006.02.28 20:07:00 - [57] Active skills would disturb the balance of the game imo. And yes, argue all you want that if it's balanced, it might be good, but facts have proven again and again that balance is not easy to achieve... So if you want to be underpowered for 5 months waiting for a fix to the skills you picked, good for you, i don't.
Montague Zooma	Posted - 2006.02.28 20:13:00 - [58] I forgot Boosters were on the way. So I guess it's a moot point. Originally by: Gonada the point is , al the "skills" talk is coming from a crowd that has come from the hack and slash , fantasy genre. LOL yeah, this is the zap and boom genre! Huuuuuge difference. Eve seems more unique than it really is. The main difference is that it's more PVP oriented than most other games, and no one is restricted to a "class". Otherwise, if you want to be a "cleric", you can equip remote repair modules...there are "buffer" ships, "tank" ships, "warrior" ships, etc. Instead of running for the zone line when you're in trouble, you run for the stargate or station. Webbing is the same as a druid's snare. We see spaceships on our screens, so we think in technological terms. If we see elves, we think magic. Eve is largely what our imaginations make it. Which isn't a bad thing. ------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk.
Swamp Ziro	Posted - 2006.02.28 20:19:00 - [59] Originally by: Montague Zooma Eve seems more unique than it really is. The main difference is that it's more PVP oriented than most other games I understand your point, but free PvP ALONE is more unique that you give credit to, these days where every mmorpg wants its players to live in a dreamland of happiness and peace or smth :p
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.02.28 21:23:00 - [60] Originally by: Wrayeth Active skills would make the game less about intelligent fittings and player skill and more about character skill. I vote no. ^^ Agree. It's defiantly a no. With great power, comes great responsibility.
Corunna ElMan	Posted - 2006.02.28 22:23:00 - [61] Originally by: MOOstradamus I look forward to your complaints and refusal to use Boosters when they come in - as they're just another form of time sensitive Active skills Make up your mind - you're the one who said active skills are already in simply because of the way we train. So do we already have such things or not? If not, it's fair to discuss why we do or don't like them. I haven't taken a position either way, except to knock over your shaky analogy. I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions?
Tripp Orsam	Posted - 2006.02.28 23:40:00 - [62] Originally by: Izo Azlion Let us que one skill after the one we're currently training. That would rock. just to be able to que a skill <3 I think skill queing (also offline skill training) may never happen, I'm not saying this is the main reason but CCP seem to be quite proud of breaking thier own 'players online at same time' record and skill queing will reduce the chance of this happening. On the other hand... I'm clueless when it comes to server hardware etc but I predict that there may be a ceiling to the max players they can have in thier virtual world, once CCP reaches this point they may allow offline skill training and/or skill queing. I know some people think they have reached this ceiling already as they complain about lag alot. ----------------------------- EVE Online perfectly strikes all your free time wrecking your 1994 marriage.
Pouah	Posted - 2006.03.01 00:46:00 - [63] Hehe ,when i made the post i didnt think it would turn like that. I want to say that by skills i did not think about things like firebolt or summoning. I was thinking more about ½ improved + abilities. Something logical and nothing that would unbalance the game. I.E. someone could concentrate really hard on the things he sees afar and then gain a +5% targeting range for 5 minutes. Or, he could go crazy and gain a +10% in Rate of fire but -15% acuracy for a minute. Only a few skill like these thatwould only add a little something to the game. I really don't want to see this game turned in an active skill based game like the other mmorpg. Players could only have 1 or 2 skills at the begining of the game when they choose their bloodlines and stick with them forever. Those skills couldhave a recharge time. There's nothing really scary [:roll] . Most of the people who flame this idea only see the possibility that active skills would be like in other mmorpg. Just think about it for a second. Plus, the devs here have proven that they're the best of the mmorpg industry. We should trust them if they want to introduce active skills in the game.
Corunna ElMan	Posted - 2006.03.01 01:17:00 - [64] Well, the opposing viewpoint is this: since a pilot is inside a pod, controlling the ship through neural hookups, the only influence the pilot has on the performance of his equipment is his knowledge and understanding of it. The term for that is "skills". I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions?
Asane	Posted - 2006.03.01 01:18:00 - [65] Edited by: Asane on 01/03/2006 01:18:35 Now I've handled guns. Lot's of guns.. And to be honest it doesn't matter how insanely mad I am, it still has the same RoF And yes, it would add a little something. Unbalance. And didn't you know already? This is part of my sig.
Mag's	Posted - 2006.03.01 01:30:00 - [66] No thanks.
Montague Zooma	Posted - 2006.03.01 01:34:00 - [67] Originally by: Asane Edited by: Asane on 01/03/2006 01:18:35 Now I've handled guns. Lot's of guns.. And to be honest it doesn't matter how insanely mad I am, it still has the same RoF And yes, it would add a little something. Unbalance. Don't get too logical. Skill training shouldn't be increasing our RoF or turret tracking, either. ------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk.
Corunna ElMan	Posted - 2006.03.01 03:02:00 - [68] You don't think you could track a target more effectively if you're more skilled with the gun? Or that a motivated crew couldn't fire the gun faster? Talk to anyone who's ever been in an artillery crew or Navy gunnery, I'd bet they disagree. I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions?
Beowulf Scheafer	Posted - 2006.03.01 05:14:00 - [69] Originally by: Pouah Is CCP planning to implant active skills in the game someday? I'm thinking about skills you have to activate. Something independant of our modules. I wonder if it would ruin the game and makes it like any other mmorpg or take the complexity and strategy of PvP and PvE to a new level. What do you think? i don't like that at all. do u have to pull a button to know how to use a pencil??? so to answer your question in the treat description: me not
Montague Zooma	Posted - 2006.03.01 05:43:00 - [70] Originally by: Corunna ElMan You don't think you could track a target more effectively if you're more skilled with the gun? Or that a motivated crew couldn't fire the gun faster? Talk to anyone who's ever been in an artillery crew or Navy gunnery, I'd bet they disagree. Ever fire a machine gun? No matter what your skill level, the rate of fire is a design feature. Pull the trigger and it fires at the same rate for a noob as for a 20 year combat infantry vet. I'm thinking a laser turret would be a similar situation. Many of our "skills" aren't skills at all, they should be upgrades to our equipment. It's just easier from a game design standpoint to make all these things "skills". ------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk.
Thomas Torquemada	Posted - 2006.03.01 06:08:00 - [71] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Montague Zooma OMG Eve is just like WOW 'cause it's massively multiplayer!!! Corps...are guilds! Gangs...are groups! NOOOO! CCP please remove these features immediately! How is this post relevant? Active skills are a stereotypical feature of "standard" MMOs and should not be included in EVE. Exactly... UPC - PVP'ers Good and Bad, How Do You Want Peace? Through Talk Or In A Casket? We Decide! Peace My Brothers...
Corunna ElMan	Posted - 2006.03.01 06:39:00 - [72] Originally by: Montague Zooma Ever fire a machine gun? No matter what your skill level, the rate of fire is a design feature. Pull the trigger and it fires at the same rate for a noob as for a 20 year combat infantry vet. I was an infantry officer. Now, are you speaking hypothetically, or have you actually fired a machine gun? Now, then - do you mean to tell me that a green recruit could effectively fire the weapon as quickly as a grizzled vet? Or are you merely counting the speed at which the rounds come out the barrel? Because that, in and of itself, is meaningless if they all miss. Remember that in EVE there is a basic standard of accuracy - so in order for your green recruit to get the same marks as the vet he will have to fire more slowly. And, of course, we're not talking machine guns anyhow. We are talking naval ordnance. A ship's gun is not like a man=portable automatic weapon - it's like a ship's gun. Have you ever fired a naval gun or field artillery? Of course not - if you had, you'd have already grasped the truth of what I said in my previous post. I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions?
Beowulf Scheafer	Posted - 2006.03.01 07:56:00 - [73] Edited by: Beowulf Scheafer on 01/03/2006 07:56:56 there is a big difference for a noob gunner and a veteran one. the veteran knows one which part is the so called "NATObreak" and has to be removed for an unflexible bolt to increase the rate of fire by 30% ( it is 30% if you upgrade a german mg3 to a mg1. i know it exactly, it was the reason for my first discipline insult...). but then again you mustn't press a button to know that, you must press a button to receive the plans of an old mg1 frim www to know how the part looks you have to create to use i did twice now since this is the third time my sig was deleted. i have no idea why tbh. now whats wrong with it?- beo
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.03.01 08:02:00 - [74] Edited by: MOOstradamus on 01/03/2006 08:03:56 Originally by: Corunna ElMan Originally by: MOOstradamus I look forward to your complaints and refusal to use Boosters when they come in - as they're just another form of time sensitive Active skills Make up your mind - you're the one who said active skills are already in simply because of the way we train. So do we already have such things or not? If not, it's fair to discuss why we do or don't like them. I haven't taken a position either way, except to knock over your shaky analogy. Wow you really are .. er .. well stupid .. if that is how you interpreted anything I've said in this thread. Perhaps all that machine gun fire has affected your ability to comprehend English - I recommend a trip to the doctor MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
Ominus Decre	Posted - 2006.03.01 08:07:00 - [75] Originally by: Pouah Is CCP planning to implant active skills in the game someday? I'm thinking about skills you have to activate. Something independant of our modules. I wonder if it would ruin the game and makes it like any other mmorpg or take the complexity and strategy of PvP and PvE to a new level. What do you think? The game already has "active" features which not only can't be clicked without them the being fitted but if you dont have the appropriate skill nor the juice on your ship you wont be able to use it. NO!! I will quite EVE if there are actual skills possed which fill act as a module. I do not want to play WoW. Anyways, you have something already along that level and it works beautifully!!
Blacklight	Posted - 2006.03.01 08:09:00 - [76] No thanks. Eve Blacklight Style
Montague Zooma	Posted - 2006.03.01 08:29:00 - [77] Originally by: Corunna ElMan I was an infantry officer. Now, are you speaking hypothetically, or have you actually fired a machine gun? My father was a machine gunner in the battle of the bulge. It's no substitute for field experience, but he's taught me quite a bit about it. I've been shooting a wide variety of firearms since the age of 5 (no machine guns though, they aren't legal in my state)...not that that has any bearing on this. A weapon's rate of fire is a weapon's rate of fire, regardless of whether I have ever fired one. A modification to the weapon will increase the rate of fire, not a modification to the gunner. Quote: Now, then - do you mean to tell me that a green recruit could effectively fire the weapon as quickly as a grizzled vet? Or are you merely counting the speed at which the rounds come out the barrel? Because that, in and of itself, is meaningless if they all miss. I'm counting the number of rounds fired per minute (or second or whichever unit of time you prefer). The same that Eve is doing. Quote: Remember that in EVE there is a basic standard of accuracy - so in order for your green recruit to get the same marks as the vet he will have to fire more slowly. Explain this...not in real world terms, but in Eve terms. Firing weapons on a real life range is different than firing guns in Eve. Because as I understand it, if I improve my pod pilot's rate of fire skill, my accuracy is not affected...but I have more chances to hit what I'm shooting at within a specific time period because I'm firing more shots. Quote: And, of course, we're not talking machine guns anyhow. We are talking naval ordnance. A ship's gun is not like a man=portable automatic weapon - it's like a ship's gun. Have you ever fired a naval gun or field artillery? Of course not - if you had, you'd have already grasped the truth of what I said in my previous post. You're making a fatal assumption. You're talking conventional naval ordnance...I'm talking Eve ordnance. Technology that is hundreds or thousands of years more advanced than what we have today will not behave identically to 21st century naval guns. You may as well try to convince me that a black powder cannon behaves the same as a Sidewinder. No, I have never fired field artillery, although I have fired an antique black powder navy line throwing gun. But it doesn't matter, as that experience is not pertinent to this computer game. Eve spaceflight doesn't have a proper physics model, either...and you're expecting lasers and blasters to behave identically to naval ordnance? ------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk.
nahtoh	Posted - 2006.03.01 10:29:00 - [78] Originally by: Montague Zooma Originally by: Corunna ElMan I was an infantry officer. Now, are you speaking hypothetically, or have you actually fired a machine gun? My father was a machine gunner in the battle of the bulge. It's no substitute for field experience, but he's taught me quite a bit about it. I've been shooting a wide variety of firearms since the age of 5 (no machine guns though, they aren't legal in my state)...not that that has any bearing on this. A weapon's rate of fire is a weapon's rate of fire, regardless of whether I have ever fired one. A modification to the weapon will increase the rate of fire, not a modification to the gunner. Quote: Now, then - do you mean to tell me that a green recruit could effectively fire the weapon as quickly as a grizzled vet? Or are you merely counting the speed at which the rounds come out the barrel? Because that, in and of itself, is meaningless if they all miss. I'm counting the number of rounds fired per minute (or second or whichever unit of time you prefer). The same that Eve is doing. Quote: Remember that in EVE there is a basic standard of accuracy - so in order for your green recruit to get the same marks as the vet he will have to fire more slowly. Explain this...not in real world terms, but in Eve terms. Firing weapons on a real life range is different than firing guns in Eve. Because as I understand it, if I improve my pod pilot's rate of fire skill, my accuracy is not affected...but I have more chances to hit what I'm shooting at within a specific time period because I'm firing more shots. Quote: And, of course, we're not talking machine guns anyhow. We are talking naval ordnance. A ship's gun is not like a man=portable automatic weapon - it's like a ship's gun. Have you ever fired a naval gun or field artillery? Of course not - if you had, you'd have already grasped the truth of what I said in my previous post. You're making a fatal assumption. You're talking conventional naval ordnance...I'm talking Eve ordnance. Technology that is hundreds or thousands of years more advanced than what we have today will not behave identically to 21st century naval guns. You may as well try to convince me that a black powder cannon behaves the same as a Sidewinder. No, I have never fired field artillery, although I have fired an antique black powder navy line throwing gun. But it doesn't matter, as that experience is not pertinent to this computer game. Eve spaceflight doesn't have a proper physics model, either...and you're expecting lasers and blasters to behave identically to naval ordnance? Well not to be picky but you maybe able increase your ROF buy being more intune with the POD interface, increase tracking by making sure your guns arealways pointing at the target ship (kinda like Infrantry being trained to always look where the rifle is pointing). Skills like this are hard to explain or quantify but could just be a way to explain experiance accured due to doing it, yeah I know it breaks down when you bring in the fact that until you train the skill no matter how much you do it its does not get better. But its a inperfect world ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Argael	Posted - 2006.03.01 10:36:00 - [79] i mean no offense but i think thah the author of this tread dont really understand eve mechanics all skills are active .... when you use the proper module or ship.
Sphalerite	Posted - 2006.03.01 11:01:00 - [80] train skill -> press button -> gain temporary advantage + drawback EVE has this covered pretty well in ways that fit with the backstory and style of the game. This proposal offers nothing that modules and boosters don't. "Some rise by sin, and some by virtue fall"
Montague Zooma	Posted - 2006.03.01 17:24:00 - [81] Quote: Skills like this are hard to explain or quantify but could just be a way to explain experiance accured due to doing it, yeah I know it breaks down when you bring in the fact that until you train the skill no matter how much you do it its does not get better. But its a inperfect world Well, yes, this gets back to my real point, which is that you don't want to examine (or apply logic to) this game too closely. Things will fall apart. Forget the nitpicking over rate of fire and look at something we all agree on...the physics model in this game is not accurate. Our ships act more like boats in water rather than vessels in space. It doesn't pay to examine that too closely...that's just how the game is played. ------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk.
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2006.03.01 17:30:00 - [82] I wouldn't mind a little memory game for researchers to sit and do in their stations in order to obtain useful data so yes, in a way but none of the clickety clickah ritalin stuff. Remind me about The Maze. I'm Danton Marcellus and I approve of this message.
000Hunter000	Posted - 2006.03.01 17:38:00 - [83] but we allready have active skills... I don't understand all this fuss. All the skills u have that benefit weapons and ships are activated as soon as u enter space or activate the specific module/weapon. Now if u want skills that do something without the need of a ship/mod/weapon now that would be just silly... 'OMG I CAN NOS SOMEONE JUST BY LOOKING AT THEM!!!111ONE!!!' Now that would suck the big one.
Corunna ElMan	Posted - 2006.03.02 04:38:00 - [84] Originally by: Montague Zooma no machine guns though, they aren't legal in my state)...not that that has any bearing on this. A weapon's rate of fire is a weapon's rate of fire, regardless of whether I have ever fired one. We are not talking about machine guns. We are talking about crew served weapons, and a field gun's rate of fire is dependent upon the skill of the crew. FFS, stop sticking to your inapplicable analogy and go ask someone who's worked on a gun crew! Quote: A modification to the weapon will increase the rate of fire, not a modification to the gunner. Better gunners load faster, lay on the target faster, and meet the basic standard of accuracy in less time. If you mean to tell me that an inexperienced loader will make a tnak gun fire just as quickly as a good one, we can go right ahead and dismiss everything else you have to say as useless. Quote: Explain this...not in real world terms, but in Eve terms. Because as I understand it, if I improve my pod pilot's rate of fire skill, my accuracy is not affected...but I have more chances to hit what I'm shooting at within a specific time period because I'm firing more shots. OK, to put it simply, skills in EVE don't improve a weapon's accuracy. That's because weapons have a fixed chance to hit within their optimal range, within falloff range, etc. Let's say, for purposes of simplicity, that a weapon has a 50% chance to hit a target within its optimal range. A green crew takes more time to track the target and is less likely to meet that standard of accuracy, while a skilled crew can load faster, track faster, and hit more often. Quote: You're making a fatal assumption. You're talking conventional naval ordnance...I'm talking Eve ordnance. So, my analogy of comparing naval ordnance to naval ordnance is somehow less approriate than your attempts to compare them to machine guns? My GOD, man - do you know how hard it is not to flame you right now? Quote: Technology that is hundreds or thousands of years more advanced than what we have today will not behave identically to 21st century naval guns. You may as well try to convince me that a black powder cannon behaves the same as a Sidewinder. Shouldn't be too hard, since you're trying to convince me that a ship-mounted 125mm cannon (NEWS FLASH: We have that technology NOW) behaves the same way as a machine gun! Quote: Eve spaceflight doesn't have a proper physics model, either...and you're expecting lasers and blasters to behave identically to naval ordnance? I'm expecting naval ordnance to behave like naval ordnance - you're expecting it to behave like man-portable weapons. Please, give it up before you get further behind. You're only opening yourself up to ridicule. I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions?
Montague Zooma	Posted - 2006.03.02 06:31:00 - [85] Quote: FFS, stop sticking to your inapplicable analogy and go ask someone who's worked on a gun crew! Certainly. Where do I find someone who has worked on a pod pilot ship's gun crew? ------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk.
Corunna ElMan	Posted - 2006.03.02 06:37:00 - [86] Edited by: Corunna ElMan on 02/03/2006 06:37:13 Originally by: Montague Zooma [Certainly. Where do I find someone who has worked on a pod pilot ship's gun crew? OK, you really ARE a moron. I'm trying to say that there's no difference between modern naval ordnance and EVE naval ordnance. Did you miss the 125mm gun reference? They have them in EVe and guess what? We have them now! They are called "five inch guns"! Don't even try to tell me that real-world comparisons are inapplicable, Mister Machinegun. Get your head out of your posterior cavity, you're really making a fool of yourself. I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions?
Montague Zooma	Posted - 2006.03.02 08:01:00 - [87] Quote: OK, you really ARE a moron. I'm trying to say that there's no difference between modern naval ordnance and EVE naval ordnance. Did you miss the 125mm gun reference? They have them in EVe and guess what? We have them now! They are called "five inch guns"! Don't even try to tell me that real-world comparisons are inapplicable, Mister Machinegun. Get your head out of your posterior cavity, you're really making a fool of yourself. Riiiiight. Sure, we have Eve technology in place today. Whatever you say man. I sure am glad you set me straight on that, 'cause I don't want to be a fool. Yes, the skill of a real life Navy gun crew makes a big difference. I never said it didn't. I also haven't confused my imaginary pod pilot with a real life Navy crew. I imagine my Eve ship has automated systems firing the laser guns. My pod pilot is plugged into those systems. You're imagining your ship has a US Navy gun crew firing 21st century five inch guns. Maybe your pod pilot issues orders to the crew over an intercom. That's fine. No matter how we picture it, it all plays the same. Eve is a statistical game. I'm looking at the stats. Rate of fire is listed for each weapon and I view that as its design specification. I mentioned a machinegun's rate of fire as a simple illustration of what I meant. The point I was originally making...and will restate it again...is that the game doesn't bear up very well under close examination. The skill training system is nice, but doesn't make a lot of sense...seems like skills should improve with practice but they don't. Our space ships behave more like boats in water rather than spacecraft. Some things we just have to overlook. That's all I was trying to say before you got all fixated on whether I've ever fired a machinegun. ------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk.
Corunna ElMan	Posted - 2006.03.02 18:31:00 - [88] Edited by: Corunna ElMan on 02/03/2006 18:36:19 Originally by: Montague Zooma Sure, we have Eve technology in place today. Whatever you say man. Look, are you dense? EVE has 125mm naval guns - we have 125mm naval guns today. Everything doesn't necessarily have to be different just because it's the future. Quote: I imagine my Eve ship has automated systems firing the laser guns. The real life situation you describe is not like what I'm imagining it to be like for our pod pilots. You imagine that a naval cannon works anything at all like a machine gun, so let's be thankful that your imagination doesn't determine how the game works. Ships have crews - it's been referred to in the official fiction: http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/14-07-05.asp Quote: Four months later, Daren Athaksis was confirmed as one of six-thousand three-hundred and fourteen reported casualties resulting from the destruction of the Apocalypse-class battleship "Dam-Imud." Now, I'm certain that those 6,314 crewmen aren't just there to swab the decks and polish the hull. Do you think they might be... manning the guns? Quote: Our space ships behave more like boats in water rather than spacecraft. Yet, you stubbornly refuse to accept that the guns might likewise work in a similar fashion... Quote: I'm sure you're not arguing that real life gun crews plug in skills the same way a pod pilot does. no, they learn them the hard way - through experience - but that doesnt change the fact that how you learn a skill is immaterial to how you perform it. Again, a naval gun or field artillery piece's rate of fire is dependent upon the *skill of the crew. To address your original point, that is why skills increase the rate of fire on a gun. Accept it or don't, it's a real-life fact. I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions?*
Gray Carmicheal	Posted - 2006.03.02 19:27:00 - [89] I'll take it if it's implemented, but only if I can don bright purple guns, add some blood red spikes, and shoot out glitter-trailed missles while in Aspect of the 1337. /Sarcasm_off. My sig was CONCORDOKKENED. I blame Wrangler H4x.
Corunna ElMan	Posted - 2006.03.02 20:34:00 - [90] Originally by: Montague Zooma True, it doesn't have to be different. That's my bias showing...I expect continued technological improvements. Did you use a musket when you were in the service? Do you think a knife works any different than it did 3,000 years ago? Things don't always need to continually advance, if they serve the intended purpose as is. Quote: I've seen players argue for endless pages about whether our pod ships have crews and have no desire to reignite that. You don't need to - it's referred to in the official fiction. I don't care whether or not you disagree. Quote: Let's say the RoF of all Eve weaponry is not a function of design, but of the skill of the gun crews. That's fine...except that it doesn't show up in the game. The pod pilot can improve his R0F skill...but the gun crews have no impact. Who do you think is directing the gun crew? Do you even have the faintest idea what I'm getting at? The pilot is issuing orders to the crew, directing them, and motivating them. An unskilled captain won't get the best out of his crew - and that's been a fact that hasn't changed since man first set sail. You asked me how pilot skill could possibly improve RoF of the guns, and I've answered. If you won't accept any rationalization that doesn't fit your imagined way the EVE Universe works, then don't bother asking the question. We can't read your mind and we're not obligated to agree with the way you "think" EVE works anyhow. I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions?
Alzion	Posted - 2006.03.02 21:34:00 - [91] Guys, appeals to RL logic are just going to lead you in a big circle, they really don't have anything to do with the discussion. The reason active skills won't work is because Eve's mechanics differ from humaniod avatar rpg mechanics. In a classic rpg you would interact with other charecters and your enviroment with active skills. The type of active skills you could use and their effectivness would be dependent on your character class. In Eve you interact with the enviroment through the use of moduals. The types and quality of the moduals is dependent on your ship type. The use of skills replace classic "level ups" in increasing your effectivness. In Eve the use of ships replaces character classes, or skill caps (UO), in limiting charecter flexibility. Once you start introducing direct charecter abilities you destroy this effect and break the game. In the end it all comes down to game design, Eve isn't a standard RPG interface and wasn't intended to have "active skills". --------------------------------------------- I hear Linux can cure cancer and raise your sperm count. - Dionysus Davinci
Montague Zooma	Posted - 2006.03.02 21:54:00 - [92] Quote: Do you even have the faintest idea what I'm getting at? The pilot is issuing orders to the crew, directing them, and motivating them. An unskilled captain won't get the best out of his crew - and that's been a fact that hasn't changed since man first set sail. Yes, I do see what you're getting at and acknowledge its truth. Which apparently is more than you're capable of doing for any point I make. After defending the skill of gun crews, now you're saying only the skill of the person giving the orders is what counts. So I guess the skill of the crew doesn't matter after all? The skill of the people taking the orders seems at least as important as the skill of the people giving them...which would you rather command, a unit of people like me, or a unit of combat vets? You're going to get different results with those groups. That's why I think the game should include an actual crew element of some sort if Eve crews are so important. Quote: Do you think a knife works any different than it did 3,000 years ago? Things don't always need to continually advance, if they serve the intended purpose as is. For someone who admonishes me for "talking about machine guns when we're really talking about naval ordnance" I find it amusing that you'll refuse to acknowledge my example about muskets vs modern rifles and switch to knives in a feeble attempt to not to have to admit the validity of my point...and yeah, I'd rather use a modern stainlesss steel blade than some 3000 year old bronze knife. A modern blade will hold a better edge and be less prone to breakage than the ones they made back in those days. If all of mankind shared your attitude, we'd still be in the Bronze Age. But at least we wouldn't be arguing about spaceship games. Quote: You don't need to - it's referred to in the official fiction. Too bad the prose doesn't affect the gameplay. It's sad that the only evidence you can find for a crew is outside the actual game. It'd be great to have a crew presence in the gameplay, but then players would be even more reluctant to risk their ships along with the experienced crew they've trained. So the devs took a shortcut and made all the pertinent skills and crew attributes portable with the pod pilot. An awkward solution at best, at least in terms of realism. Quote: I don't care whether or not you disagree. Oh, you care all right. That's why you can't resist responding to a "moron". Quote: Guys, appeals to RL logic are just going to lead you in a big circle, they really don't have anything to do with the discussion. You are, of course, correct. Too bad my trying to make a similar point in the first place is how this all started. ------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk.
Corunna ElMan	Posted - 2006.03.03 02:41:00 - [93] Originally by: Montague Zooma After defending the skill of gun crews, now you're saying only the skill of the person giving the orders is what counts. So I guess the skill of the crew doesn't matter after all? Isn't the cpatain part of the crew? A good captain might get more out of a green crew, whereas they might hinder a lesser leader. A mediocre captain won't get the best out of any crew, no matter how good that crew is. Quote: For someone who admonishes me for "talking about machine guns when we're really talking about naval ordnance" I find it amusing that you'll refuse to acknowledge my example about muskets vs modern rifles and switch to knives in a feeble attempt to not to have to admit the validity of my point... The point being, some weapons don't change fundamentally over centuries or millennia. It doesn't matter if a modern knife is more durable (btw, an ancient obsidian knife can hold a better edge than any modern steel one), the fact remains that knives still work the same way as they did from the dawn of time. Quote: If all of mankind shared your attitude, we'd still be in the Bronze Age. NEWS FLASH: All of mankind does share my attitude. You're just too dense to look around you and notice the everyday things that haven't fundamentally changed after hundreds of years. Quote: Too bad the prose doesn't affect the gameplay. Again, you asked why skills improve the RoF of a gun, I've explained why and provided official canon to justify it. Your continued disregard of it shows that you really aren't interested in anything that doesn't fit your imagination of the EVE universe, even if it is the imagination of the developers themselves. Quote: Oh, you care all right. That's why you can't resist responding to a "moron". Context, you dolt. I don't care if you disagree with the creators of the game - and they don't either. Get it through your skull, your concept of the game doesn't define it. I sure am glad you don't define the EVE universe, we'd all be firing machine guns at each other. I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions?
Montague Zooma	Posted - 2006.03.03 05:47:00 - [94] We really shouldn't keep meeting like this, Corunna. People will begin to talk! Quote: The point being, some weapons don't change fundamentally over centuries or millennia. It doesn't matter if a modern knife is more durable (btw, an ancient obsidian knife can hold a better edge than any modern steel one), the fact remains that knives still work the same way as they did from the dawn of time. Obsidian makes for much better scalpels than stainless steel. The wounds heal with much less scarring. The main drawback is the brittleness. Agreed, the most basic tools/weapons don't improve much other than to be made out of better materials. But the more complex the item is, the more it seems to improve over time. Compare the original Gatling gun to a Vulcan. A Sopwith Camel to a F117. Quote: NEWS FLASH: All of mankind does share my attitude. You're just too dense to look around you and notice the everyday things that haven't fundamentally changed after hundreds of years. Like computers, satellites, lasers, automobiles, organ transplants, genetic engineering, nuclear power....yep, this is the same old junk we've had for millenia! An awful lot of changes have taken place in the last hundred years alone and the rate of change is not slowing down. Quote: I've explained why and provided official canon to justify it. Your continued disregard of it shows that you really aren't interested in anything that doesn't fit your imagination of the EVE universe, even if it is the imagination of the developers themselves. Read my paragraph about the prose again. It's not a denial. It's a lament. If our crews are that important, it's not apparent through the way the game is structured. The game makes it seem like it's all about the pod pilot. For all practical purposes, it is...all we have is one rather boring short story mentioning crews getting blown up. There may be more, the one you pointed to is the only one I remember that's actually about crew members. Pity it didn't at least provide more insight as to what the crews do. The weapon systems can still be automated, maybe they repair them and keep them in working order. Although, speaking of official canon, there is a strong implication that the development of pod pilots makes at least some of the crew unnecessary: Stories are told of pod pilot heroes flying on the side of the Caldari during the twilight years of the Gallente-Caldari war, executing maneuvers unthinkable to those encumbered with a full crew complement and the bothersome necessity of using vocal commands and hand-eye coordination to steer their vessels. It's in the backstory section. Sounds like a crew is a hinderance...and the pilot is plugged into computerized control systems. Quote: Get it through your skull, your concept of the game doesn't define it. By the same token, neither does yours. All we're doing is comparing our interpretations of it. I still don't see why you take such umbrage to the concept that the weapon systems could be totally automated. At least you seem to accept the concept of the pod pilot and clones. Automated weapon systems don't seem implausible after that. ------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk.
Daikatana00	Posted - 2006.03.03 05:48:00 - [95] --Disclaimer-- I in no way presume to know exactly what the OP is trying to say, just approximately how irrelevant the most recent posts are to whatever he was trying to say. guys...you do realize that in the fiction only capital class ships have crews. These are presumably to operate docking stations and clonebays etc., NOT the guns. The OP is thinking more along the lines of overloading MECHANICAL parts by running them at faster speeds than they are rated for or capable of. He is not in any way suggesting that these active skills be able to DO ANYTHING on their own but simply temporarily increase the performance of a module/ship ocasionally. For example, engine A is rated to run at a constant speed of 200m/s, afterburner B is rated to double that speed, skill C increases all afterburner efects by an additional 20% for X seconds but damages hull at a slow rate for that time by running the AB past its maintainable thrust. This skill can only be used once per X minutes because the engines have to cool down afterward. Likewise, gun D fires at a rate of X shots per minute and has a radius of Y. Using an active skill, you can temporarily increase that ROF but the radius increases. IN an rp sense, you area firing before your gun has time to refocus the beam or recover from the recoil of its previous firing but doing so too often would cause the gun to overheat or shake loose. All of the above can be done in both a mechanical and gameplay sense because If I were to throw more and more fuel into a jet engine it will continue to produce more thrust but eventually burn itself out or explode. if i push more power through my electical engines that move my guns to track targets they will move faster but I will lose precision and the motors will wear out faster. All this addition would do is create more options within gameplay and add a new element "stress" to ships above the "cap, hull, armor, shield" we can use to make our ships more flexible or powerful. Obviously, we will need to limit these active skills in number...maybe only 3 skills at a time, you have to gforget one to train a fourth, and trainable on a seperate timer than regular skills to prevent people from becomeing some kind of uber-flexible solo pwnzall. Anyway, its getting early in the morning and I don't wanna think anymore so I'll stop here...night all.
Valigis	Posted - 2006.03.03 05:52:00 - [96] NO. HELL NO. it will make this another WOW...
Corunna ElMan	Posted - 2006.03.03 06:03:00 - [97] Originally by: Montague Zooma Like computers, satellites, lasers, automobiles, organ transplants, genetic engineering, nuclear power....yep, this is the same old junk we've had for millenia! Yet you still sit in a chair, at a table, and eat your dinner off of a plate... with a fork. They might be made out of more advanced materials, but the technology itself is unchanged. Quote: Although, speaking of official canon, there is a strong implication that the development of pod pilots makes at least some of the crew unnecessary: Certainly!I can't imagine that a ship as big as an Apoc could be crewed by only 6,300 people unless the pilot had direct control or some degree of remote influence over sytems. Quote: I still don't see why you take such umbrage to the concept that the weapon systems could be totally automated. I'm trying to explain to you the evidence that suggests that they are not. If they were, you'd be absolutely right and there'd be little justification for skill improving rate of fire. What's frustrating is how you seem to lose your own train of thought throughout this discussion, and I keep having to remind you of how this all applies to your original remark. I'll say it again: You wanted to know how skill could possibly improve a weapon's rate of fire, and I've given you plenty of reasons why, both in-game and in real life. I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions?
Montague Zooma	Posted - 2006.03.03 06:44:00 - [98] Quote: What's frustrating is how you seem to lose your own train of thought throughout this discussion, and I keep having to remind you of how this all applies to your original remark. I'll say it again: You wanted to know how skill could possibly improve a weapon's rate of fire, and I've given you plenty of reasons why, both in-game and in real life. Well yes, I thought we'd hashed that out and were just enjoying picking each others nits. If the weapon systems consist of USS Missouri style gun crews, the skill of the crew...as you have explained...is the key. If the weapon systems are fully automated and controlled by computer like I think they are, then the only skill the pod pilot really needs is the ability to issue the order to lock on and fire. Or maybe the skill relates to an improved ability to interface with the weapon system. No matter which way we envision it, it all works the same as far as the game is concerned. Until we get some official canon as to how it works, I'm content to agree to disagree. ------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk.
Corunna ElMan	Posted - 2006.03.03 06:58:00 - [99] I can live with that. I just had the feeling that you weren't hearing me at all. I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions?
Montague Zooma	Posted - 2006.03.03 07:13:00 - [100] Hehe and I figured you weren't listening to me, either. Hey, if you want a cheap laugh at my expense, I got my armageddon blown out from under me while making that last reply. Oops. Thought I had engaged my cloaking device. Yet another reason to hope I don't really have a crew...just can't take the guilt.... ------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk.
Feta Solamnia	Posted - 2006.03.03 07:29:00 - [101] isn't this post about attribute boosters of kali? Originally by: Oveur I have access to all market data. Believe me, we have not reached anything close to deflation yet.
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.03.03 09:18:00 - [102] Edited by: MOOstradamus on 03/03/2006 09:18:34 Originally by: Feta Solamnia isn't this post about attribute boosters of kali? Yes in part, like I already tried to explain to 'some' people .. MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.03.03 09:48:00 - [103] Originally by: Montague Zooma Hehe and I figured you weren't listening to me, either. Hey, if you want a cheap laugh at my expense, I got my armageddon blown out from under me while making that last reply. Oops. Thought I had engaged my cloaking device. Yet another reason to hope I don't really have a crew...just can't take the guilt.... And that's why training crew is pretty pointless, they die too often. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Brastagi	Posted - 2006.03.03 10:10:00 - [104] Originally by: Daikatana00 .... All of the above can be done in both a mechanical and gameplay sense because If I were to throw more and more fuel into a jet engine it will continue to produce more thrust but eventually burn itself out or explode. if i push more power through my electical engines that move my guns to track targets they will move faster but I will lose precision and the motors will wear out faster. All this addition would do is create more options within gameplay and add a new element "stress" to ships above the "cap, hull, armor, shield" we can use to make our ships more flexible or powerful. Nice argument. But wouldn't the skills we have learned for example rapid firing with increse the rof will be useless having an active skill that will increase the rof temporarily? Also if you plan to stack those skills, that would be too uber.. just like you stated. Also the penalty you put there is bit harsh. By making modules damaged during prolonged combat (if you survived long enough) using active skill will severly handicap the players in the end. Try see the bill to repair a battleships. Altho it is amusing it's not too economic wise. It may make ships more powerful (temporary) but not too flexible IMO. Quote: Obviously, we will need to limit these active skills in number...maybe only 3 skills at a time, you have to gforget one to train a fourth, and trainable on a seperate timer than regular skills to prevent people from becomeing some kind of uber-flexible solo pwnzall. So for this active skills you want 3 skills trainable at the same time? Or you can only have three active skills that are used only? --------- OranjeKonijn. Obey the rabbit. OranjeKonijn. Obey the rabbit. OranjeKonijn.
Rafein	Posted - 2006.03.03 11:01:00 - [105] make them take implant slots 1-5, an I'm for them.
Corunna ElMan	Posted - 2006.03.03 13:48:00 - [106] Originally by: Montague Zooma I got my armageddon blown out from under me while making that last reply. Bummer, dude. I just got my battleships, I'd hate to lose one like that. Quote: Yet another reason to hope I don't really have a crew...just can't take the guilt.... when they're slaves, you shouldn't feel so bad. I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions?
The Snowman	Posted - 2006.03.03 14:17:00 - [107] hang on a sec... Maybe activating skills in Eve might not be such a good idea, however.. ships DO get a bonus when fitted with certain items : the thorax gets a bonus to med hybrids for example. so fitting a thorax with med hybrids would be likeable to activating a special ability or skill of that ship. so, why not characters?.. why shouldnt it be that a certain races or bloodline can have access to special abilites when they are using certain items or ships, or doing certain activites? there doesnt seem to be much that differentiates the different races and bloodlines so anything which would diversify this a bit more I would be well up for!
Montague Zooma	Posted - 2006.03.03 17:35:00 - [108] The 'geddon was my first BS. On the plus side, I took the insurance money and was able to get my first Apocalypse. ------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk.

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