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Abdullah Bahdoon Somali Initiative for Dialogue and Posting 5	Posted - 2013.11.30 21:47:00 - [1] - Quote Since I have a caldari toon already focused on missiles and shields, it seems the next logical thing to train for . I want to get into dreadnaughts and would appreciate any thoughts on mandatory required skills , fittings and currently used tactics when piloting a Phoenix.
Tom K'rathma Quantum Reality R n D The Methodical Alliance 0	Posted - 2013.11.30 22:02:00 - [2] - Quote I love the Phoenix, and when I first started it's what I wanted to aim for, but after a while the reality hit me - it's basically useless for anything other than structure bashing. The massive sig radius requirements of the missiles only really make it useful for whacking things the size of a small moon. But skills? I wouldn't settle for anything but 5 on near all cap and shield skills, and missile skills are self explanatory. As for tactics, I know it has an awesome burst local tank like many Caldari ships, and typical of missiles half decent alpha and DPS, so I'd probably say small ish groups of structure bashing would be good, however I would choose the Revelation for prolonged sieges, and the Moros for anti-ship warfare. Never flown one like, this is just 3 years of research and I could be totally wrong.
Abdullah Bahdoon Somali Initiative for Dialogue and Posting 5	Posted - 2013.11.30 22:07:00 - [3] - Quote Tom K'rathma wrote: I love the Phoenix, and when I first started it's what I wanted to aim for, but after a while the reality hit me - it's basically useless for anything other than structure bashing. The massive sig radius requirements of the missiles only really make it useful for whacking things the size of a small moon. But skills? I wouldn't settle for anything but 5 on near all cap and shield skills, and missile skills are self explanatory. As for tactics, I know it has an awesome burst local tank like many Caldari ships, and typical of missiles half decent alpha and DPS, so I'd probably say small ish groups of structure bashing would be good, however I would choose the Revelation for prolonged sieges, and the Moros for anti-ship warfare. Never flown one like, this is just 3 years of research and I could be totally wrong. So you are saying that it's only viable for structure bashing ? I thought that supers are "the size of a small moon" ... You said that reality hit you after training for one, in other words are you suggesting not to go for one ? Is it that bad as a dreadnaught ? I mean ... it does have capital cruise missiles...
Tom K'rathma Quantum Reality R n D The Methodical Alliance 1	Posted - 2013.11.30 22:14:00 - [4] - Quote Abdullah Bahdoon wrote: Tom K'rathma wrote: I love the Phoenix, and when I first started it's what I wanted to aim for, but after a while the reality hit me - it's basically useless for anything other than structure bashing. The massive sig radius requirements of the missiles only really make it useful for whacking things the size of a small moon. But skills? I wouldn't settle for anything but 5 on near all cap and shield skills, and missile skills are self explanatory. As for tactics, I know it has an awesome burst local tank like many Caldari ships, and typical of missiles half decent alpha and DPS, so I'd probably say small ish groups of structure bashing would be good, however I would choose the Revelation for prolonged sieges, and the Moros for anti-ship warfare. Never flown one like, this is just 3 years of research and I could be totally wrong. So you are saying that it's only viable for structure bashing ? I thought that supers are "the size of a small moon" ... You said that reality hit you after training for one, in other words are you suggesting not to go for one ? Is it that bad as a dreadnaught ? I mean ... it does have capital cruise missiles... A POS can't doomsday you, and the burst local tank can't do a whole lot against 2,000,000+ Alpha. I still want one though, just no ISK to get one or I would without hesitation, it's so sexy, I want the handle back on the engines though. And it suffers the same issues as other missile systems, it's only good for DPSing ships of the same size or bigger, and you don't get much bigger than a Dreadnaught. But I think my bottom line would be unless you're shooting a Titan in a huge fleet, or a POS in a small fleet, get a Revelation or Moros, Phoenix is sexy and I love it, it just suffers from issues that guns don't tend to suffer from.
Abdullah Bahdoon Somali Initiative for Dialogue and Posting 5	Posted - 2013.11.30 22:19:00 - [5] - Quote Sadly Revelation and Moros are armor tanked , Revelation uses lasers and Moros hybrids . Neither one of these options is available for me since it is a caldari toon with already around 20 mil SP invested in missiles and shields.
Wyte Ragnarok 52	Posted - 2013.11.30 22:20:00 - [6] - Quote http://eveion.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/manufacture-of-phoenixes-banned.html Phoenix is terribad. Production should cease immediately.
Tom K'rathma Quantum Reality R n D The Methodical Alliance 1	Posted - 2013.11.30 22:23:00 - [7] - Quote Abdullah Bahdoon wrote: Sadly Revelation and Moros are armor tanked , Revelation uses lasers and Moros hybrids . Neither one of these options is available for me since it is a caldari toon with already around 20 mil SP invested in missiles and shields. Honestly though, in all my years of being in fleets with Dreads, I've not once seen one with a proper sustainable tank, I think it's an unofficial broken game mechanic, they're supposed to do awesome DPS and tank well, but people just blob with them and alpha anything and just fit them for derp and cap, it's lore vs reality, it sucks but it's true. I still want one. Sexy long missile tube.
Abdullah Bahdoon Somali Initiative for Dialogue and Posting 5	Posted - 2013.11.30 22:30:00 - [8] - Quote Wyte Ragnarok wrote: http://eveion.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/manufacture-of-phoenixes-banned.html Phoenix is terribad. Production should cease immediately. But surely there must be someone out there in New Eden manufacturing those, i haven't got the luxury to start training for other dreadnaughts for scratch.
Lady Naween Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel 317	Posted - 2013.11.30 22:37:00 - [9] - Quote http://capships.com/ Lady Patricia builds em cheaply if you must get one But the phoenix is terrible. As in abysmal. You say that training armour tanking isnt an option, well I am sad to say you are limiting yourself a LOT by not training armour. It doesnt take all that long, and most capital ships use armour (because of it being just plain better a lot of times). If i where you, I wouldn't get the phoenix. Take the time to train for the naglfar if you MUST shield tank as it can be shield tanked as well. you just need to train up gunnery. and the nagelfar is actually good. unlike the phoenix which is so abysmal that tbh I rather take a subcap instead of it in many cases.
Abdullah Bahdoon Somali Initiative for Dialogue and Posting 5	Posted - 2013.11.30 22:44:00 - [10] - Quote Lady Naween wrote: http://capships.com/ Lady Patricia builds em. But the phoenix is terrible. As in abysmal. You say that training armour tanking isnt an option, well I am sad to say you are limiting yourself a LOT by not training armour. It doesnt take all that long, and most capital ships use armour (because of it being just plain better a lot of times). If i where you, I wouldn't get the phoenix. Take the time to train for the naglfar if you MUST shield tank as it can be shield tanked as well. you just need to train up gunnery. and the nagelfar is actually good. unlike the phoenix which is so abysmal that tbh I rather take a subcap instead of it in many cases. How come every time that I decide to train for a ship everyone tells me it is terrible ? Training for capital guns is such a long haul that i might actually have time to try LoL or get back to WoW.
Lady Naween Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel 318	Posted - 2013.11.30 23:20:00 - [11] - Quote Welcome to EVE. it takes time to train for something, look if you have your heart set for the phoenix.. get it. Personally I fly the Revelation though the Moros is far superiour (because.. Amarr Victor). Sure I do less dps on our targets, but.. meh if the FC doesn't like it they can always tell me not to come. Sure the phoenix is terrible.. but.. if you want it. Also, a lot of people will say.. XXX is terrible.. this is true in EVE and in WoW (or was back when i was playing) and sometimes they are full of **** tbh. Sometimes it isn't just about what is the optimal choice, instead of what you like. Drakes used to be the ship to go for in the battlecruiser slot, I refused and used my harby.. because.. eff drake. sure.. if cost me some more but... TLDR: if you want a phoenix.. get one.. just know it is the worst of the four.
Wyte Ragnarok 52	Posted - 2013.12.01 11:40:00 - [12] - Quote Abdullah Bahdoon wrote: Wyte Ragnarok wrote: http://eveion.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/manufacture-of-phoenixes-banned.html Phoenix is terribad. Production should cease immediately. But surely there must be someone out there in New Eden manufacturing those, i haven't got the luxury to start training for other dreadnaughts for scratch. CCP is in the process of banning them all Abdullah Bahdoon wrote: How come every time that I decide to train for a ship everyone tells me it is terrible ? Training for capital guns is such a long haul that i might actually have time to try LoL or get back to WoW. Try researching them before training into them. I never train for a ship without researching their use in any aspects applicable, acquiring fits from others as well as trying my own. Finally I make a skill plan and then consider if I want to put this into practice or not. Lastly, training for capital guns isn't too tedious; it'll help you get T2 subcap guns along the way.
Onictus Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension 611	Posted - 2013.12.01 12:20:00 - [13] - Quote Abdullah Bahdoon wrote: Lady Naween wrote: http://capships.com/ Lady Patricia builds em. But the phoenix is terrible. As in abysmal. You say that training armour tanking isnt an option, well I am sad to say you are limiting yourself a LOT by not training armour. It doesnt take all that long, and most capital ships use armour (because of it being just plain better a lot of times). If i where you, I wouldn't get the phoenix. Take the time to train for the naglfar if you MUST shield tank as it can be shield tanked as well. you just need to train up gunnery. and the nagelfar is actually good. unlike the phoenix which is so abysmal that tbh I rather take a subcap instead of it in many cases. How come every time that I decide to train for a ship everyone tells me it is terrible ? Training for capital guns is such a long haul that i might actually have time to try LoL or get back to WoW. You need gunnery V and Large hybrid V medium and small hybrid III ....the medium and smaller are both pretty short, like less than a day, and large hybrid is 26 days mapped properly.
Abdullah Bahdoon Somali Initiative for Dialogue and Posting 5	Posted - 2013.12.01 12:47:00 - [14] - Quote When I first started Eve, I made a caldari toon that now I do not use that much (I sometimes carebear with it to fund some of my pvp activities, when I get bored from mining ice). At that time the Drake was "the swiss army knife" of 0.0 and Raven was truly King of PvE (100% damage application with torps). I never got to get into those tho , I've quited Eve for a long time and when I got back lots of things changed regarding missile systems . I've found that on the hard way , when I finally got my t2 fitted Raven -- the damage application was no longer the same. I'm definetly not a capital specialist, but if you all say that the Phoenix sucks, maybe I should listen and abandon the project. I hope you can understand me when I say that it will be hard for me to accept it since it was my very first toon and i wanted to keep it pure caldari . These days I think it has become much harder for new pilots to make the right choice in terms of ship training and weapon systems. What is in vogue today , tomorrow will be obsolete. You train for Apocalypse and then finally when you can fit it full t2, the fleet doctrine changes to Dominix, good luck with that if you lack good drone skills. Sadly the standard now in Eve requires you to fly all subcapitals in the game, preferably coupled with an armor carrier and dreadnaught. I don't know if I have that much time to allocate to the game.
Abdiel Kavash Paladin Order Fidelas Constans 2092	Posted - 2013.12.01 13:21:00 - [15] - Quote I would suggest training for a dreadnought instead. Capital firework launchers are not really that useful.
StahlWaffe Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 5	Posted - 2013.12.01 13:31:00 - [16] - Quote Abdullah Bahdoon wrote: Since I have a caldari toon already focused on missiles and shields, it seems the next logical thing to train for . I want to get into dreadnaughts and would appreciate any thoughts on mandatory required skills , fittings and currently used tactics when piloting a Phoenix. The Phoenix is currently pretty ... well, bottom end of food chain. That means, you could skill it, buy one for cheap, master it, and once the balancetrain hits the Pheonix and puts it in a good spot, you're there, ready to go! But for now, i'd Suggest a Moros/Rev for huge Capital Brawls, and a Naglfar for 'smallscale cap warfare' if something like that even exists.
The Spod Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 125	Posted - 2013.12.01 15:04:00 - [17] - Quote 1) Train armor. 2) Keep your focus and train caldari caps. Phoenix will get a balance pass in next 5 years. Use your other race alts to train the other race turret flavor of the half decade.
Lady Naween Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel 320	Posted - 2013.12.01 17:36:00 - [18] - Quote Abdullah Bahdoon wrote: These days I think it has become much harder for new pilots to make the right choice in terms of ship training and weapon systems. What is in vogue today , tomorrow will be obsolete. You train for Apocalypse and then finally when you can fit it full t2, the fleet doctrine changes to Dominix, good luck with that if you lack good drone skills. Sadly the standard now in Eve requires you to fly all subcapitals in the game, preferably coupled with an armor carrier and dreadnaught. I don't know if I have that much time to allocate to the game. Yes and no. Lady can't fly very much (due to having 15.8 mill in leadership) only large guns i have is lasers, no drone skills to speak of, yet I can be apart of all our doctrins. Usually as logi yes but so what? Logi is the best :) But if you talk pure 0.0 blobs then it might be a bit different but in low we always bring a few specific ships so someone can train into those and always be handy (recons, logi, hell scout if your skills are really bad.) At first glance it can seem you need 200 million SP to be useful but when you start looking more closely that isnt the case. And if you cant be part of one or two fleets.. so what? It isnt the end of the world.
RavenPaine RaVeN Alliance 555	Posted - 2013.12.01 18:04:00 - [19] - Quote You can see the general opinion on the Phoenix. The only thing worse than starting at the bottom, for lets say, a Moros, Would be to put several months of training into the Phoenix. Rev is sexy, but limited damage type. Lots of targets have EM holes though, lots. Moros is king at the moment I believe, and Hybrids are relative to a Caldari based pilot. I like a Nag. Capless and decent damage selection. It feels gimped when armor fit though...(Armor fleets are the thing) Not like it can take reps when sieged anyways. In my opinion: CCP have nerfed the crap out of shields and missiles, of all sizes. And they weren't really OP before the changes. I don't see much serious use of Shield doctrines in the near future. 1 year or more Especially in the cap ship arena. Train another race. If you are Cap ship focused, and dead set on that, train Amarr. They have good ships all the way up the line, and great caps.
Tara Read The Generic Pirate Corporation Shadow Cartel 652	Posted - 2013.12.04 11:16:00 - [20] - Quote Abdullah Bahdoon wrote: Since I have a caldari toon already focused on missiles and shields, it seems the next logical thing to train for . I want to get into dreadnaughts and would appreciate any thoughts on mandatory required skills , fittings and currently used tactics when piloting a Phoenix. A Phoenix isn't a Dreadnought. 18k dps Moros all the way boss. That being said (and looking at your thought process behind wanting one) you need to take a step back and look at the reasons why you want to fly the ship. With 20 mil SP I seriously doubt you have all the jump drive skills necessary to even get far, the proper siege module to get the most out of a multi billion isk capital, and I doubt you have any clue what a Dread is actually used for. Yes they are BIG yes they look cool but in all practicality a Dread is very very vulnerable. Out of Siege a Dread is useless, can be subject to EWAR like any other ship, and is just a fatter lumbering Battleship. In Siege a Dread becomes a powerhouse of damage. isk per amount of dps a Dread will get you the best (if in a Moros) with proper skills and fitting. A proper dread will cost you just shy of 4 billion isk if you should lose it. Not withstanding I've killed over 300 billion isk in ships and got more than enough use out of them however a Dread is very situational. Things to consider: 1. NEVER solo in a Dread unless bait with immediate backup. You will get dropped. You will die in under 4-5 minutes. And you will look stupid. 2. Insure the thing. Investing in the insurance and having 1.8 bil sent back to your wallet is a sigh of relief when losing one. 3. Know what you are doing. Capacitor is king in a Dread which is why running dual large cap boosters and chucking Navy 800's like a junkie is necessary for quick ganks. Get in get out before a counter fleet can respond. Simple as that. Now onto the Phoenix. It's ****. Why? because missiles take to longer apply their damage therefore the dps is lackluster and application wise the Phoenix is more of a liability than an asset. Just seeing a big shiny ship isn't enough to justify owning or flying one. Knowing beforehand it's capabilities is what you as an Eve pilot need to do. I recommend you stay away from capitals for now. Focus on cross training sub skills such as armor, capacitor skills, ewar, fitting, rigging, shield resistance, thermodynamics, drugs, gunnery and missile sub skills such as Surgical Strike. These skills are what you need to be focusing on to be an effective pvp pilot. Not diverting into a terrible Dread with limited use and the temptation to be lost quickly and foolishly. Visit my blog for all the latest in jeers and tears as well as news at http://hoistthecolors.org
Jack Mayhem Kaer Industries 81	Posted - 2013.12.04 11:36:00 - [21] - Quote First of all, OP, you don't need dreadnought if you ask such questions. Stick to someone smaller. And Phoenix is very terrible, true. Secondly, this is EVE, not WoW, you don't need to stick to your original race. Just cross-train and enjoy fun ships.
elise densi Dark Amarr Ancestry 35	Posted - 2013.12.04 13:35:00 - [22] - Quote also u need to have use for a dread since its far from a solo sip aswell u need logi (other carrier prefer) and small webbing t3 or recon ships to make it preform dreads are used in wh's for cap escalation and bigger pvp fleets aswell as strucktural bashing low/nullsec pocos station sov strucktures big ships are limited so many things think about b4 getting one
Kirkwood Ross Golden Profession 81	Posted - 2013.12.04 13:44:00 - [23] - Quote If you are in your Phoenix and you get dropped on; the enemy will likely kill the other more dangerous dreads first. This gives you time to escape!
Kasutra Tailor Company 240	Posted - 2013.12.04 13:53:00 - [24] - Quote Train what you want, it's your character. Just don't whine if your future alliance mates would rather have you fly tackle!
Gypsio III Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 992	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:56:00 - [25] - Quote Kirkwood Ross wrote: If you are in your Phoenix and you get dropped on; the enemy will likely kill the other more dangerous dreads first. This gives you time to escape! The best* way of doing this is to fit a MWD, overload it and hit siege when travelling at 200 m/s. You're be unwebbable during siege and the extra mass will let you barge puny subcaps out of the way. When you exit siege you'll be outside the bubbles and can warp off and switch to a useful dread, like a Moros or Naglfar. *silliest
Adeena Torcfist Right Hand Of The Legion. 49	Posted - 2013.12.04 18:43:00 - [26] - Quote phoenix is getting looked at, & by the time youve trained it to V & all its supposrting skills, it will more than likely be a worthy ship in fleets. your decision, theres enough arguements about how bad it is.
Gh0stBust3rs Wraith Shadow Guards 8	Posted - 2013.12.05 02:24:00 - [27] - Quote Honestly when it comes down to it you can fly whatever the hell you want. Just expect to be laughed at every time you undock it. Against structures they are amazing. Against anything that goes faster then 100m/s your doing no damage. So in theory if your shooting a carrier not in triage and its triple webbed scrammed and target painted to **** you might actually hit it with 2-3 volleys before the real dreads blap it off the field. They are being looked at though so it could get better.
Abdullah Bahdoon Somali Initiative for Dialogue and Posting 5	Posted - 2013.12.05 22:56:00 - [28] - Quote I thank you all for the enlightenment on this matter !
Abdiel Kavash Paladin Order Fidelas Constans 2162	Posted - 2013.12.05 23:17:00 - [29] - Quote Gh0stBust3rs wrote: So in theory if your shooting a carrier not in triage and its triple webbed scrammed and target painted to **** your first volley will not reach it before the real dreads blap it off the field. FTFY.
Aaron Zebulun Sum of Three Halves 1	Posted - 2013.12.07 13:36:00 - [30] - Quote Just did some basic EFT warrioring, all skills lv5 T2 mods, T1 ammo no links or implants etc... Rev: 8067 dps 39346 alpha 3146 tank 3966 burst tank 1.9M ehp 13.5 mins cap Moros: 11092 dps 48691 alpha 2691 tank 3966 burst tank 1.9M ehp 9.3 mins cap Nag: 9139 dps 35658 alpha 3262 tank 3966 burst tank 1.75M ehp 13.8 mins cap Phoenix: 6571 dps 98009 alpha 3609 tank 6133 burst tank 1.5M ehp 4.3 mins cap Yeah the phoenix is gimped, way less dps than everything else, even a 4th damage mod doesn't even reach 7k dps. Lowest ehp and terrible cap and that's with 6 cap re-chargers in the mids. The best burst tank, but honestly it probably wouldn't even last the 5 mins to get out of siege and receive reps + cap from supporting carriers.

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