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Abdullah Bahdoon Somali Initiative for Dialogue and Posting 5	Posted - 2013.11.30 21:47:00 - [1] - Quote Since I have a caldari toon already focused on missiles and shields, it seems the next logical thing to train for . I want to get into dreadnaughts and would appreciate any thoughts on mandatory required skills , fittings and currently used tactics when piloting a Phoenix.
Tom K'rathma Quantum Reality R n D The Methodical Alliance 0	Posted - 2013.11.30 22:02:00 - [2] - Quote I love the Phoenix, and when I first started it's what I wanted to aim for, but after a while the reality hit me - it's basically useless for anything other than structure bashing. The massive sig radius requirements of the missiles only really make it useful for whacking things the size of a small moon. But skills? I wouldn't settle for anything but 5 on near all cap and shield skills, and missile skills are self explanatory. As for tactics, I know it has an awesome burst local tank like many Caldari ships, and typical of missiles half decent alpha and DPS, so I'd probably say small ish groups of structure bashing would be good, however I would choose the Revelation for prolonged sieges, and the Moros for anti-ship warfare. Never flown one like, this is just 3 years of research and I could be totally wrong.
Abdullah Bahdoon Somali Initiative for Dialogue and Posting 5	Posted - 2013.11.30 22:07:00 - [3] - Quote Tom K'rathma wrote: I love the Phoenix, and when I first started it's what I wanted to aim for, but after a while the reality hit me - it's basically useless for anything other than structure bashing. The massive sig radius requirements of the missiles only really make it useful for whacking things the size of a small moon. But skills? I wouldn't settle for anything but 5 on near all cap and shield skills, and missile skills are self explanatory. As for tactics, I know it has an awesome burst local tank like many Caldari ships, and typical of missiles half decent alpha and DPS, so I'd probably say small ish groups of structure bashing would be good, however I would choose the Revelation for prolonged sieges, and the Moros for anti-ship warfare. Never flown one like, this is just 3 years of research and I could be totally wrong. So you are saying that it's only viable for structure bashing ? I thought that supers are "the size of a small moon" ... You said that reality hit you after training for one, in other words are you suggesting not to go for one ? Is it that bad as a dreadnaught ? I mean ... it does have capital cruise missiles...
Tom K'rathma Quantum Reality R n D The Methodical Alliance 1	Posted - 2013.11.30 22:14:00 - [4] - Quote Abdullah Bahdoon wrote: Tom K'rathma wrote: I love the Phoenix, and when I first started it's what I wanted to aim for, but after a while the reality hit me - it's basically useless for anything other than structure bashing. The massive sig radius requirements of the missiles only really make it useful for whacking things the size of a small moon. But skills? I wouldn't settle for anything but 5 on near all cap and shield skills, and missile skills are self explanatory. As for tactics, I know it has an awesome burst local tank like many Caldari ships, and typical of missiles half decent alpha and DPS, so I'd probably say small ish groups of structure bashing would be good, however I would choose the Revelation for prolonged sieges, and the Moros for anti-ship warfare. Never flown one like, this is just 3 years of research and I could be totally wrong. So you are saying that it's only viable for structure bashing ? I thought that supers are "the size of a small moon" ... You said that reality hit you after training for one, in other words are you suggesting not to go for one ? Is it that bad as a dreadnaught ? I mean ... it does have capital cruise missiles... A POS can't doomsday you, and the burst local tank can't do a whole lot against 2,000,000+ Alpha. I still want one though, just no ISK to get one or I would without hesitation, it's so sexy, I want the handle back on the engines though. And it suffers the same issues as other missile systems, it's only good for DPSing ships of the same size or bigger, and you don't get much bigger than a Dreadnaught. But I think my bottom line would be unless you're shooting a Titan in a huge fleet, or a POS in a small fleet, get a Revelation or Moros, Phoenix is sexy and I love it, it just suffers from issues that guns don't tend to suffer from.
Abdullah Bahdoon Somali Initiative for Dialogue and Posting 5	Posted - 2013.11.30 22:19:00 - [5] - Quote Sadly Revelation and Moros are armor tanked , Revelation uses lasers and Moros hybrids . Neither one of these options is available for me since it is a caldari toon with already around 20 mil SP invested in missiles and shields.
Wyte Ragnarok 52	Posted - 2013.11.30 22:20:00 - [6] - Quote http://eveion.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/manufacture-of-phoenixes-banned.html Phoenix is terribad. Production should cease immediately.
Tom K'rathma Quantum Reality R n D The Methodical Alliance 1	Posted - 2013.11.30 22:23:00 - [7] - Quote Abdullah Bahdoon wrote: Sadly Revelation and Moros are armor tanked , Revelation uses lasers and Moros hybrids . Neither one of these options is available for me since it is a caldari toon with already around 20 mil SP invested in missiles and shields. Honestly though, in all my years of being in fleets with Dreads, I've not once seen one with a proper sustainable tank, I think it's an unofficial broken game mechanic, they're supposed to do awesome DPS and tank well, but people just blob with them and alpha anything and just fit them for derp and cap, it's lore vs reality, it sucks but it's true. I still want one. Sexy long missile tube.
Abdullah Bahdoon Somali Initiative for Dialogue and Posting 5	Posted - 2013.11.30 22:30:00 - [8] - Quote Wyte Ragnarok wrote: http://eveion.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/manufacture-of-phoenixes-banned.html Phoenix is terribad. Production should cease immediately. But surely there must be someone out there in New Eden manufacturing those, i haven't got the luxury to start training for other dreadnaughts for scratch.
Lady Naween Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel 317	Posted - 2013.11.30 22:37:00 - [9] - Quote http://capships.com/ Lady Patricia builds em cheaply if you must get one But the phoenix is terrible. As in abysmal. You say that training armour tanking isnt an option, well I am sad to say you are limiting yourself a LOT by not training armour. It doesnt take all that long, and most capital ships use armour (because of it being just plain better a lot of times). If i where you, I wouldn't get the phoenix. Take the time to train for the naglfar if you MUST shield tank as it can be shield tanked as well. you just need to train up gunnery. and the nagelfar is actually good. unlike the phoenix which is so abysmal that tbh I rather take a subcap instead of it in many cases.
Abdullah Bahdoon Somali Initiative for Dialogue and Posting 5	Posted - 2013.11.30 22:44:00 - [10] - Quote Lady Naween wrote: http://capships.com/ Lady Patricia builds em. But the phoenix is terrible. As in abysmal. You say that training armour tanking isnt an option, well I am sad to say you are limiting yourself a LOT by not training armour. It doesnt take all that long, and most capital ships use armour (because of it being just plain better a lot of times). If i where you, I wouldn't get the phoenix. Take the time to train for the naglfar if you MUST shield tank as it can be shield tanked as well. you just need to train up gunnery. and the nagelfar is actually good. unlike the phoenix which is so abysmal that tbh I rather take a subcap instead of it in many cases. How come every time that I decide to train for a ship everyone tells me it is terrible ? Training for capital guns is such a long haul that i might actually have time to try LoL or get back to WoW.
Lady Naween Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel 318	Posted - 2013.11.30 23:20:00 - [11] - Quote Welcome to EVE. it takes time to train for something, look if you have your heart set for the phoenix.. get it. Personally I fly the Revelation though the Moros is far superiour (because.. Amarr Victor). Sure I do less dps on our targets, but.. meh if the FC doesn't like it they can always tell me not to come. Sure the phoenix is terrible.. but.. if you want it. Also, a lot of people will say.. XXX is terrible.. this is true in EVE and in WoW (or was back when i was playing) and sometimes they are full of **** tbh. Sometimes it isn't just about what is the optimal choice, instead of what you like. Drakes used to be the ship to go for in the battlecruiser slot, I refused and used my harby.. because.. eff drake. sure.. if cost me some more but... TLDR: if you want a phoenix.. get one.. just know it is the worst of the four.
Wyte Ragnarok 52	Posted - 2013.12.01 11:40:00 - [12] - Quote Abdullah Bahdoon wrote: Wyte Ragnarok wrote: http://eveion.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/manufacture-of-phoenixes-banned.html Phoenix is terribad. Production should cease immediately. But surely there must be someone out there in New Eden manufacturing those, i haven't got the luxury to start training for other dreadnaughts for scratch. CCP is in the process of banning them all Abdullah Bahdoon wrote: How come every time that I decide to train for a ship everyone tells me it is terrible ? Training for capital guns is such a long haul that i might actually have time to try LoL or get back to WoW. Try researching them before training into them. I never train for a ship without researching their use in any aspects applicable, acquiring fits from others as well as trying my own. Finally I make a skill plan and then consider if I want to put this into practice or not. Lastly, training for capital guns isn't too tedious; it'll help you get T2 subcap guns along the way.
Onictus Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension 611	Posted - 2013.12.01 12:20:00 - [13] - Quote Abdullah Bahdoon wrote: Lady Naween wrote: http://capships.com/ Lady Patricia builds em. But the phoenix is terrible. As in abysmal. You say that training armour tanking isnt an option, well I am sad to say you are limiting yourself a LOT by not training armour. It doesnt take all that long, and most capital ships use armour (because of it being just plain better a lot of times). If i where you, I wouldn't get the phoenix. Take the time to train for the naglfar if you MUST shield tank as it can be shield tanked as well. you just need to train up gunnery. and the nagelfar is actually good. unlike the phoenix which is so abysmal that tbh I rather take a subcap instead of it in many cases. How come every time that I decide to train for a ship everyone tells me it is terrible ? Training for capital guns is such a long haul that i might actually have time to try LoL or get back to WoW. You need gunnery V and Large hybrid V medium and small hybrid III ....the medium and smaller are both pretty short, like less than a day, and large hybrid is 26 days mapped properly.
Abdullah Bahdoon Somali Initiative for Dialogue and Posting 5	Posted - 2013.12.01 12:47:00 - [14] - Quote When I first started Eve, I made a caldari toon that now I do not use that much (I sometimes carebear with it to fund some of my pvp activities, when I get bored from mining ice). At that time the Drake was "the swiss army knife" of 0.0 and Raven was truly King of PvE (100% damage application with torps). I never got to get into those tho , I've quited Eve for a long time and when I got back lots of things changed regarding missile systems . I've found that on the hard way , when I finally got my t2 fitted Raven -- the damage application was no longer the same. I'm definetly not a capital specialist, but if you all say that the Phoenix sucks, maybe I should listen and abandon the project. I hope you can understand me when I say that it will be hard for me to accept it since it was my very first toon and i wanted to keep it pure caldari . These days I think it has become much harder for new pilots to make the right choice in terms of ship training and weapon systems. What is in vogue today , tomorrow will be obsolete. You train for Apocalypse and then finally when you can fit it full t2, the fleet doctrine changes to Dominix, good luck with that if you lack good drone skills. Sadly the standard now in Eve requires you to fly all subcapitals in the game, preferably coupled with an armor carrier and dreadnaught. I don't know if I have that much time to allocate to the game.
Abdiel Kavash Paladin Order Fidelas Constans 2092	Posted - 2013.12.01 13:21:00 - [15] - Quote I would suggest training for a dreadnought instead. Capital firework launchers are not really that useful.
StahlWaffe Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 5	Posted - 2013.12.01 13:31:00 - [16] - Quote Abdullah Bahdoon wrote: Since I have a caldari toon already focused on missiles and shields, it seems the next logical thing to train for . I want to get into dreadnaughts and would appreciate any thoughts on mandatory required skills , fittings and currently used tactics when piloting a Phoenix. The Phoenix is currently pretty ... well, bottom end of food chain. That means, you could skill it, buy one for cheap, master it, and once the balancetrain hits the Pheonix and puts it in a good spot, you're there, ready to go! But for now, i'd Suggest a Moros/Rev for huge Capital Brawls, and a Naglfar for 'smallscale cap warfare' if something like that even exists.
The Spod Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 125	Posted - 2013.12.01 15:04:00 - [17] - Quote 1) Train armor. 2) Keep your focus and train caldari caps. Phoenix will get a balance pass in next 5 years. Use your other race alts to train the other race turret flavor of the half decade.
Lady Naween Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel 320	Posted - 2013.12.01 17:36:00 - [18] - Quote Abdullah Bahdoon wrote: These days I think it has become much harder for new pilots to make the right choice in terms of ship training and weapon systems. What is in vogue today , tomorrow will be obsolete. You train for Apocalypse and then finally when you can fit it full t2, the fleet doctrine changes to Dominix, good luck with that if you lack good drone skills. Sadly the standard now in Eve requires you to fly all subcapitals in the game, preferably coupled with an armor carrier and dreadnaught. I don't know if I have that much time to allocate to the game. Yes and no. Lady can't fly very much (due to having 15.8 mill in leadership) only large guns i have is lasers, no drone skills to speak of, yet I can be apart of all our doctrins. Usually as logi yes but so what? Logi is the best :) But if you talk pure 0.0 blobs then it might be a bit different but in low we always bring a few specific ships so someone can train into those and always be handy (recons, logi, hell scout if your skills are really bad.) At first glance it can seem you need 200 million SP to be useful but when you start looking more closely that isnt the case. And if you cant be part of one or two fleets.. so what? It isnt the end of the world.
RavenPaine RaVeN Alliance 555	Posted - 2013.12.01 18:04:00 - [19] - Quote You can see the general opinion on the Phoenix. The only thing worse than starting at the bottom, for lets say, a Moros, Would be to put several months of training into the Phoenix. Rev is sexy, but limited damage type. Lots of targets have EM holes though, lots. Moros is king at the moment I believe, and Hybrids are relative to a Caldari based pilot. I like a Nag. Capless and decent damage selection. It feels gimped when armor fit though...(Armor fleets are the thing) Not like it can take reps when sieged anyways. In my opinion: CCP have nerfed the crap out of shields and missiles, of all sizes. And they weren't really OP before the changes. I don't see much serious use of Shield doctrines in the near future. 1 year or more Especially in the cap ship arena. Train another race. If you are Cap ship focused, and dead set on that, train Amarr. They have good ships all the way up the line, and great caps.
Tara Read The Generic Pirate Corporation Shadow Cartel 652	Posted - 2013.12.04 11:16:00 - [20] - Quote Abdullah Bahdoon wrote: Since I have a caldari toon already focused on missiles and shields, it seems the next logical thing to train for . I want to get into dreadnaughts and would appreciate any thoughts on mandatory required skills , fittings and currently used tactics when piloting a Phoenix. A Phoenix isn't a Dreadnought. 18k dps Moros all the way boss. That being said (and looking at your thought process behind wanting one) you need to take a step back and look at the reasons why you want to fly the ship. With 20 mil SP I seriously doubt you have all the jump drive skills necessary to even get far, the proper siege module to get the most out of a multi billion isk capital, and I doubt you have any clue what a Dread is actually used for. Yes they are BIG yes they look cool but in all practicality a Dread is very very vulnerable. Out of Siege a Dread is useless, can be subject to EWAR like any other ship, and is just a fatter lumbering Battleship. In Siege a Dread becomes a powerhouse of damage. isk per amount of dps a Dread will get you the best (if in a Moros) with proper skills and fitting. A proper dread will cost you just shy of 4 billion isk if you should lose it. Not withstanding I've killed over 300 billion isk in ships and got more than enough use out of them however a Dread is very situational. Things to consider: 1. NEVER solo in a Dread unless bait with immediate backup. You will get dropped. You will die in under 4-5 minutes. And you will look stupid. 2. Insure the thing. Investing in the insurance and having 1.8 bil sent back to your wallet is a sigh of relief when losing one. 3. Know what you are doing. Capacitor is king in a Dread which is why running dual large cap boosters and chucking Navy 800's like a junkie is necessary for quick ganks. Get in get out before a counter fleet can respond. Simple as that. Now onto the Phoenix. It's ****. Why? because missiles take to longer apply their damage therefore the dps is lackluster and application wise the Phoenix is more of a liability than an asset. Just seeing a big shiny ship isn't enough to justify owning or flying one. Knowing beforehand it's capabilities is what you as an Eve pilot need to do. I recommend you stay away from capitals for now. Focus on cross training sub skills such as armor, capacitor skills, ewar, fitting, rigging, shield resistance, thermodynamics, drugs, gunnery and missile sub skills such as Surgical Strike. These skills are what you need to be focusing on to be an effective pvp pilot. Not diverting into a terrible Dread with limited use and the temptation to be lost quickly and foolishly. Visit my blog for all the latest in jeers and tears as well as news at http://hoistthecolors.org
Jack Mayhem Kaer Industries 81	Posted - 2013.12.04 11:36:00 - [21] - Quote First of all, OP, you don't need dreadnought if you ask such questions. Stick to someone smaller. And Phoenix is very terrible, true. Secondly, this is EVE, not WoW, you don't need to stick to your original race. Just cross-train and enjoy fun ships.
elise densi Dark Amarr Ancestry 35	Posted - 2013.12.04 13:35:00 - [22] - Quote also u need to have use for a dread since its far from a solo sip aswell u need logi (other carrier prefer) and small webbing t3 or recon ships to make it preform dreads are used in wh's for cap escalation and bigger pvp fleets aswell as strucktural bashing low/nullsec pocos station sov strucktures big ships are limited so many things think about b4 getting one
Kirkwood Ross Golden Profession 81	Posted - 2013.12.04 13:44:00 - [23] - Quote If you are in your Phoenix and you get dropped on; the enemy will likely kill the other more dangerous dreads first. This gives you time to escape!
Kasutra Tailor Company 240	Posted - 2013.12.04 13:53:00 - [24] - Quote Train what you want, it's your character. Just don't whine if your future alliance mates would rather have you fly tackle!
Gypsio III Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 992	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:56:00 - [25] - Quote Kirkwood Ross wrote: If you are in your Phoenix and you get dropped on; the enemy will likely kill the other more dangerous dreads first. This gives you time to escape! The best* way of doing this is to fit a MWD, overload it and hit siege when travelling at 200 m/s. You're be unwebbable during siege and the extra mass will let you barge puny subcaps out of the way. When you exit siege you'll be outside the bubbles and can warp off and switch to a useful dread, like a Moros or Naglfar. *silliest
Adeena Torcfist Right Hand Of The Legion. 49	Posted - 2013.12.04 18:43:00 - [26] - Quote phoenix is getting looked at, & by the time youve trained it to V & all its supposrting skills, it will more than likely be a worthy ship in fleets. your decision, theres enough arguements about how bad it is.
Gh0stBust3rs Wraith Shadow Guards 8	Posted - 2013.12.05 02:24:00 - [27] - Quote Honestly when it comes down to it you can fly whatever the hell you want. Just expect to be laughed at every time you undock it. Against structures they are amazing. Against anything that goes faster then 100m/s your doing no damage. So in theory if your shooting a carrier not in triage and its triple webbed scrammed and target painted to **** you might actually hit it with 2-3 volleys before the real dreads blap it off the field. They are being looked at though so it could get better.
Abdullah Bahdoon Somali Initiative for Dialogue and Posting 5	Posted - 2013.12.05 22:56:00 - [28] - Quote I thank you all for the enlightenment on this matter !
Abdiel Kavash Paladin Order Fidelas Constans 2162	Posted - 2013.12.05 23:17:00 - [29] - Quote Gh0stBust3rs wrote: So in theory if your shooting a carrier not in triage and its triple webbed scrammed and target painted to **** your first volley will not reach it before the real dreads blap it off the field. FTFY.
Aaron Zebulun Sum of Three Halves 1	Posted - 2013.12.07 13:36:00 - [30] - Quote Just did some basic EFT warrioring, all skills lv5 T2 mods, T1 ammo no links or implants etc... Rev: 8067 dps 39346 alpha 3146 tank 3966 burst tank 1.9M ehp 13.5 mins cap Moros: 11092 dps 48691 alpha 2691 tank 3966 burst tank 1.9M ehp 9.3 mins cap Nag: 9139 dps 35658 alpha 3262 tank 3966 burst tank 1.75M ehp 13.8 mins cap Phoenix: 6571 dps 98009 alpha 3609 tank 6133 burst tank 1.5M ehp 4.3 mins cap Yeah the phoenix is gimped, way less dps than everything else, even a 4th damage mod doesn't even reach 7k dps. Lowest ehp and terrible cap and that's with 6 cap re-chargers in the mids. The best burst tank, but honestly it probably wouldn't even last the 5 mins to get out of siege and receive reps + cap from supporting carriers.
FT Diomedes The Graduates RAZOR Alliance 224	Posted - 2013.12.07 22:57:00 - [31] - Quote As others have told you, the Phoenix is a terrible ship in the current meta. Until it rises again from the ashes, it will not be worth training.
Gypsio III Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 994	Posted - 2013.12.08 01:16:00 - [32] - Quote Aaron Zebulun wrote: Yeah the phoenix is gimped, way less dps than everything else, even a 4th damage mod doesn't even reach 7k dps. Lowest ehp and terrible cap and that's with 6 cap re-chargers in the mids. The best burst tank, but honestly it probably wouldn't even last the 5 mins to get out of siege and receive reps + cap from supporting carriers. It's 8214 DPS with kinetic missiles, but it doesn't really matter, apart from putting the Revelation into context a bit better.
Incindir Mauser Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy 281	Posted - 2013.12.08 07:41:00 - [33] - Quote The Pheonix is **** not so much because of its hull but because of its weapon systems. Citadel torps and cruise missiles are garbage and a Titan can speed tank the damage. If you really wanted to poke a stick in CCP's eye you could go so far as to say that missile mechanics in Eve are pretty much screwed to begin with. They nerfed HML's to better match long range turrets, then they buffed long range turrets, now HML's suck and nobody wants to use them. Anyway. Citadel launchers are basically hurling missiles and torpedos that are approximately the same size as a Saturn V rocket. The same thing used to put men on the moon. Looking at the raw data used in the game to calculate how these things do damage, something that big carrying a 100 ton warhead makes an explosion smaller than a couple city blocks. The fuel in the rocket has more explosive potential than the warheads the morons are putting into Citadel missile and torps. Never mind the fact that detonations occur at greater than the speed of sound, and in outer space, there is no air resistance to hold the expansion back, so explosion speeds in vacuum would likely exceed the speed of detonation in an atmosphere. So the premise behind explosion velocities in Eve are bogus to begin with. If one were to apply the maxim... Eve is Real... then the Pheonix and capital missile launchers would be a hilariously destructive device spreading massive amounts of AoE mayhem. Only they're not. So one would be safe to assume that in the universe of New Eden, we don't travel about in the vacuum of space, but something more akin to corn syrup or KY jelly.
Dorian Wylde Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 375	Posted - 2013.12.08 21:56:00 - [34] - Quote Go ahead and train for the phoenix. By the time you're able to fly one well, and afford it, CCP will be on to the capital ship rebalance. The reason people say everything you want to train is terrible, is because you're not training for the FOTM. And that's all people on the forums care about. If it doesn't have the best EHP, and the best volley damage, and the best applied DPS, it's crap, and worthless, and CCP clearly hates the race that flies it, and should just delete it from the game. Welcome to the forums. Now leave, and go play EVE, the game, that's supposed to be fun, and what you want to play.
Grandma Squirel 51	Posted - 2013.12.09 05:26:00 - [35] - Quote I wouldn't count on CCP fixing capital missiles any time soon. When they did the miniature dread rebalance, fixing the Naglfar, the left the phoenix broken. Even if they fix the problem with being unable to damage moving anything, you are still going to run into the classic problem with missile systems, delayed application of damage. Every time you start shooting a new target, you loose dps relative to a turret based setup, as your inflight shots are no longer valuable, and your damage on the new target wont start till your shots arrive. At the major coalition level, the meta seems to be shifting towards alphaing caps off the field, rather then trying to break reps, which the pheonix is always going to be terrible at; by the time your damage starts applying, the target will either be dead, or have caught reps. All that said, very few people outside the major coalitions use dreads for anything but shooting structures, and that your phoenix will be ok for.
Gh0stBust3rs Wraith Shadow Guards D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 14	Posted - 2013.12.09 15:37:00 - [36] - Quote Dorian Wylde wrote: Go ahead and train for the phoenix. By the time you're able to fly one well, and afford it, CCP will be on to the capital ship rebalance. The reason people say everything you want to train is terrible, is because you're not training for the FOTM. And that's all people on the forums care about. If it doesn't have the best EHP, and the best volley damage, and the best applied DPS, it's crap, and worthless, and CCP clearly hates the race that flies it, and should just delete it from the game. Welcome to the forums. Now leave, and go play EVE, the game, that's supposed to be fun, and what you want to play. just a side note that the current FOTM has been the same for 4 years now. whether its blap dreads or siege dreads the phoenix has never been ideal. While i agree about the delayed damage thing I wouldnt utilize them like that. Having the phoenixes hit a different target then the turret based dread would allow you to utilize them while also forcing the enemy to split what reps may catch. While the turret dread alpha **** the phoenixes provided sustained dps on other targets,
unidenify Caldari Provisions Caldari State 31	Posted - 2014.01.17 16:59:00 - [37] - Quote Aaron Zebulun wrote: Just did some basic EFT warrioring, all skills lv5 T2 mods, T1 ammo no links or implants etc... Phoenix: 6571 dps 98009 alpha 3609 tank 6133 burst tank 1.5M ehp 4.3 mins cap Yeah the phoenix is gimped, way less dps than everything else, even a 4th damage mod doesn't even reach 7k dps. Lowest ehp and terrible cap and that's with 6 cap re-chargers in the mids. The best burst tank, but honestly it probably wouldn't even last the 5 mins to get out of siege and receive reps + cap from supporting carriers. Burst tank is almost twice of other, so it don't need to run often as other dread. but consider that you state 6 cap in mid, so I assume that shield tank ability on Phoenix get gimped as well.
Kirkwood Ross Golden Profession 118	Posted - 2014.01.17 20:28:00 - [38] - Quote Train a phoenix, you will most likely use it for structure bashing and if you get attacked and have to retreat it's ok because you won't be a primary threat. So while the other dreads are dying you can get out of siege then peace out. Then later on when dreadnaught's get reworked phoenix will be boosted and capital torps will probably be the king of damage.
Silvetica Dian Manson Family Advent of Fate 597	Posted - 2014.01.18 14:48:00 - [39] - Quote Abdullah Bahdoon wrote: Tom K'rathma wrote: I love the Phoenix, and when I first started it's what I wanted to aim for, but after a while the reality hit me - it's basically useless for anything other than structure bashing. The massive sig radius requirements of the missiles only really make it useful for whacking things the size of a small moon. But skills? I wouldn't settle for anything but 5 on near all cap and shield skills, and missile skills are self explanatory. As for tactics, I know it has an awesome burst local tank like many Caldari ships, and typical of missiles half decent alpha and DPS, so I'd probably say small ish groups of structure bashing would be good, however I would choose the Revelation for prolonged sieges, and the Moros for anti-ship warfare. Never flown one like, this is just 3 years of research and I could be totally wrong. So you are saying that it's only viable for structure bashing ? I thought that supers are "the size of a small moon" ... You said that reality hit you after training for one, in other words are you suggesting not to go for one ? Is it that bad as a dreadnaught ? I mean ... it does have capital cruise missiles... The Pheonix is the joke of null. here is a list of all the fiat currencies that didn't end up at zero value.....and here is a list of the places where a currency pegged to a real commodity has successfully co-existed with compound interest....-á Here is a physics professor explaining why sustainable growth isn't a thing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY
Canthan Rogue The Graduates RAZOR Alliance 13	Posted - 2014.01.19 08:44:00 - [40] - Quote Ok, guys listen. Listen. Guys. CITADEL CRUISE PHOENIXES! 2.08M EHP 6151 dps 187km lock range/flight distance 13591 dps shield tank Cap stability: 3m20s Near perfect damage application on moving capitals [Phoenix, Phoenix fit] Damage Control II Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Signal Amplifier II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II EM Ward Field II Thermic Dissipation Field II Capital Neutron Saturation Injector I Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 'Limos' Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Guristas Scourge Citadel Cruise Missile 'Limos' Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Guristas Scourge Citadel Cruise Missile 'Limos' Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Guristas Scourge Citadel Cruise Missile Siege Module II Capital Warhead Flare Catalyst I Capital Warhead Flare Catalyst I Capital Core Defense Field Extender I
Tiberius StarGazer Trifectas Executor Trifectas Syndicate 410	Posted - 2014.02.12 04:25:00 - [41] - Quote Oddly enough after looking at the cruise missile Phoenix I struggle to find much fault with a ship that can throw 6000 DPS + 170km in every direction. You'd be able to hit any other capital ship on field at any time. Can almost imagine a small group landing off range of another cap fleet while a sub cap fleet pins it down and let's the Phoenix rip em a new one piece by piece. The dreaded ability to Alpha a Phoenix off field is totally negated. Edit - thinking about it even more, it's the very same tactic I use with Caracals fighting cruisers, someone gets tackle, can't get hit by target, DPS arrives and kites them... Kite dreds anyone?
Krystyn Serenity Rising LLC Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 143	Posted - 2014.02.12 14:38:00 - [42] - Quote As one of the very few people here who actually has a phoenix and has successfully used it... You can see I get one of 2 results with it: Massive alpha damage on a tackled Cap and big damage/final blow: http://ishukone-raata.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=40134 http://ishukone-raata.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=42760 http://ishukone-raata.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=42761 http://ishukone-raata.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=42241 http://ishukone-raata.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=42271 Or zero/little damage as it died before my rounds got to the target. http://ishukone-raata.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=42804 http://ishukone-raata.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=40889 http://ishukone-raata.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=42805 several other kill mails that I did not get on since it died before I even tried to shoot at it becuz Blue Dreads killed it so fast as I was waiting the 15 seconds between shots... Other notes on the phoenix Easily the best tank of any of the Dreads. It's not even close and that's using t2 or meta tank its even better with faction/deadspace tank. You are very unlikely to get DD(as that would be a waste of their DD) as you probably wouldn't die even unsieged. Moros and Revs and Nags and probably other carriers are primaired before you unless they want to get the lolz of shooting a phoenix before they all die OR your whole fleet was going to die anyways. However, as everyone else has pointed out tank is virtually meaningless on a Dread. If you get caught by a decent force and bubbled you die end of story. If you have a decent team you wipe them out or catch reps or jump out. Cap regen isn't important for a phoenix which is why it has crappy regen. One Large T2 Cap booster will get you jump cap level before siege is over. So if you aren't bubbled to hell you will be able to get out, which the Moros and Rev really can't manage to match. Longer fights you don't even need the cap booster(but its hard to know how long a cap fight could last) Massive alpha, but only on Supers, Caps and structures. BSes unless they are stationary or webbed to hell and TPed so bad they are lit up like a christmas tree you can't hardly hit them at all. Fast moving Caps will get some damage mitigation from the pathetic explosion velocity of the missiles, but that really doesn't happen a lot(I have seen a nano Hel before) No range issues with the phoenix. If you can hit at all you are going to hit it for the maximum damage you are able(which may be pathetic or 50k+ volley). Its either hit or miss there isn't anything in between. Citadel torps can got about 60km depending on skills if you are within that range you will do fine. The other Dreads have to change ammo types to change range, but if your cyno pilot isn't an idiot he will drop you close to optimal for the Gun Dreads. If you have citadel cruiser(for what I don't know) your range is 150km+ In Structure grinding the phoenix can change damage type to match the weakest resist(assuming you brought the right ammo) Missiles look cooler than the other weapons(big deal I know) They are the cheapest to use, see the one we killed, it is under 2 bil for a workable setup. http://ishukone-raata.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=42803 Add a few faction BCSes on there and you can drop the cap rig and bring up the dps a lot and still be cheaper than a Moros But Bottomline The Moros and Revs in their optimals easily out DPS the phoenix. Nags can get the same or better range and dps with no wait time. The gun dreads can all adjust their optimals with ammo type changes and can hit BS sized targets relatively well, the phoenix cannot. So the only thing the phoenix is decent at is structure grinding and hitting tackled Caps and Supers Edit:Training Capital Guns and Gallente BS/Dread skills now
Z'zauoe Euopaeqorua Nomads of the Thukker 23	Posted - 2014.02.13 06:44:00 - [43] - Quote Who cares what is the best? Fly Caldari and have fun.

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