And I pointed out that there's already a group of players who rat under those conditions ("those conditions" being no Local and the possibility that there's a cloaky right next to you) - and they do just fine. You see in NullSec people whine about AFK cloakers and various "risks". In WH's you just assume there's already someone watching you. When you rat... you rat aligned to a safe. Or rather, at least I do. I've had Stealth Bombers and Proteui decloak next to me, but because I'm paying attention, I just click "warp" and off I go. My cursor is always on that warp button - or the DScan button.

When I shoot Sleepers, I have a very minimal need to take my cursor off the warp button - the only time I do is when I target a queue of like 8 Sleepers. But then I select my warp out point and the cursor goes back over the warp button. To shoot the next sleeper after the previous one has died.... wait for it... just hit the hotkey your weapons are set to. They will automatically activate on the next target you have in your queue... no need to click it if it's already targeted.

I'm sorry for your confusion. It's my fault for not elaborating more.

Oh okay so basically you just misunderstood what I wrote. Okay then that can be fixed -

You wrote this:

how long do you think it takes someone who's ratting to identify that there's a hostile player on grid with him, reselect the warpout point (they're going to be targeting rats and selecting which ones to attack), and hit warp? Probably longer than it takes for you to lock and point them.

And I pointed out that there's already a group of players who rat under those conditions ("those conditions" being no Local and the possibility that there's a cloaky right next to you) - and they do just fine. You see in NullSec people whine about AFK cloakers and various "risks". In WH's you just assume there's already someone watching you. When you rat... you rat aligned to a safe. Or rather, at least I do. I've had Stealth Bombers and Proteui decloak next to me, but because I'm paying attention, I just click "warp" and off I go. My cursor is always on that warp button - or the DScan button.

When I shoot Sleepers, I have a very minimal need to take my cursor off the warp button - the only time I do is when I target a queue of like 8 Sleepers. But then I select my warp out point and the cursor goes back over the warp button. To shoot the next sleeper after the previous one has died.... wait for it... just hit the hotkey your weapons are set to. They will automatically activate on the next target you have in your queue... no need to click it if it's already targeted.

I'm sorry for your confusion. It's my fault for not elaborating more.

Is there some reason you can't change your alignment to keep the rats in range?

Then use off-grid safe, or to a POS, for your alignment?

I mean come on dude, really... use your brain a bit.

Maybe, but they don't have a MJD to jump 100km across a site. You can use the MJD to change your position in the site and then align. Now, I already know what you're gonna say, so I'll just nip that in the bud right now: You're not using the MJD to "get away" from someone when they decloak... you're using the MJD pro-actively (and not re-actively) to change your position to frustrate and deter any cloaky who may be there.

OH NOES MY RETRIEVER.

Yes, and you farm sleepers in omnitanked PVP fit ships, since they are designed for that.

You omni tank null rats and you're going to find yourself on fire pretty quick.

Which means people know exactly what PVE players will be tanked for.

Not to mention mining being something that some people tend to do as well, making it pretty hard to stay aligned and avoid a cloaky bump followed by a swift death.

Let's also mention that WH's see next to zero traffic, especially when you seal them off, which a lot of people do.

Nope, I actually farm in a PvE mission fit Drake.

Okay then don't.

Whether PvE fit or PvP fit you can already pretty accurately guess what the resistance of hole of any given ship is. And if they're tanked for a damage profile that their ship is not natively designed to tank against (ie a Raven farming Sansha) then it's not gonna matter what you shoot at them, because even their hole will only be about 10% lower than all their other resists.

Well there are literally thousands of people mining in the most dangerous place to mine these days: HiSec.

There are many areas in NullSec that see next to zero traffic as well, and you can "seal off" NullSec systems too.

Nope, but generally if you are going to keep the rats in range then you are going to be keeping the entry point in range too. In order for a cloaker to not be able to catch you and bump you, you must be travelling away from the entry point faster than their cloaked ship can travel, which is pretty damn quick if they are designed for it.

Oh yeah, because it's so hard to get around that by generating your own safe, or using a initial bounce to give yourself a clean trajectory through your targets path to a celestial.

See the first bit. No matter wherre you end up, you can easily generate bookmarks to get around your target.

Yeah, because what we want is mine with a ****** yield and fill killboards with miner kills so people know exactly where to go.

You're ignoring those things that are different
- High-end wormhole PVE is done in groups
- Wormhole PVE requires an omni tank
- Sleepers are considerably more dangerous than normal rats, posing greater danger to any enemy should the rats switch aggro
- Wormhole ratting is so profitable an occasional loss won't make that much of a dent
- Wormhole ratting is so profitable you can afford to have alts/friends scout the system and watch the entrances
- You have the ability to change the space your wormhole connects to until you find quiet or friendly systems "next" to yours

You're ignoring that most of that is irrelevant to the actual mechanics we're talking about.

In null you will have larger resist gaps, meaning a quick look up on dotlan and you can swap out your ship for whatever you need to be strong against PVE players in that area.

And you can shut down stargates in null? How exactly do you manage that oh mighty master of EVE mechanics.

You can't possibly believe that.

No, you clearly deserve every kill in every circumstance. Why not just immobilize ratters entirely while you're at it.

most vocal opponent of delayed local because giving up complete and total safety for your ratting bots spells extinction for career rmters

You realize that it's not impossible to generate a safespot that is in fact not in alignment to a celestial from a given position....?

Dude you are just bad.

Look, if someone really wants you dead that bad, you're dead. But most roaming gangs are not going to put that much effort to catch a difficult target - especially when every second they hang around waiting for their scout to get tackle is a second closer to getting discovered and blobbed. You don't seem to understand how ratting and PvP works.[/quote[Sure I do. The PVP player wants to kill the ratter for an easy KB pad. If he needs to generate a couple of bookmarks (which in fact takes very little time) he can and will. You are saying this like it would be a chore to do. Anyone that's half competent could knock out a trajectory in a very short time.

[quote=Xuixien]You realize that the yield between T1's and T2's doesn't justify the cost of T2's, right? Like, the difference isn't really that big.

I'm sorry, but until kill mails start reporting the tactics and circumstances of kills, beyond who was simply involved on a basic level applying DPS...
then pointing out how kills still happen is meaningless.

Oh okay so basically you just misunderstood what I wrote. Okay then that can be fixed -

You wrote this:

how long do you think it takes someone who's ratting to identify that there's a hostile player on grid with him, reselect the warpout point (they're going to be targeting rats and selecting which ones to attack), and hit warp? Probably longer than it takes for you to lock and point them.

And I pointed out that there's already a group of players who rat under those conditions ("those conditions" being no Local and the possibility that there's a cloaky right next to you) - and they do just fine. You see in NullSec people whine about AFK cloakers and various "risks". In WH's you just assume there's already someone watching you. When you rat... you rat aligned to a safe. Or rather, at least I do. I've had Stealth Bombers and Proteui decloak next to me, but because I'm paying attention, I just click "warp" and off I go. My cursor is always on that warp button - or the DScan button.

So let's see, do I know you can make a random safe not aligned between celestials? Of course. I also realise that no matter where your safe is in a system, I could still generate a bookmark to give me a trajectory that would land me in your path. It's not even difficult to do.

Right now we have a neutral cloaker known to hotdrop blops basically working our constellation in my TZ. The attackers aren't really committed ie they could drop into any of 50 systems that their scouts are covering.

You do realize that with the exception of Minmatar and a very small number of Caldari ships, most ships have fixed damage type, right? Like if I'm in an Enyo there's really no way I'm going to "swap my loadout" to hit that Raven's EM hole... lol come on dude, you're embarrassing yourself.

I believe you originally said "seal off", not "shut down" - don't try to change your words around on me, boy. :) And you can indeed "seal off" areas in NullSec, it's called a gatecamp with bubbles.

"Waaaah, don't make EVE harder, I don't want to spend too much effort also I don't want to lose ships."

There's a difference between "can be done" and "will be done in a high enough frequency to be statistically relevant". While I can see someone generating bookmark to give a trajectory on, say, a ratting carrier that's aligned between two celestials... I do not see anyone except the most desperate doing so to kill a Raven or something.

You should be sorry, because you are wrong.

Those kills show that every day, PvE ships, and haulers, and PvP ships that bit off more than they can chew, are being blown up all the time.

And CCP just added super fast bubble immune Intreceptors, and 2 more covops cloaked ships, and the ability for any ship to refit in hostile space.


If lazy gankers still can't get kills with all the tools the game provides, then removing local won't help them either. It will just make nullsec worth less on the risk/reward scale.

I'm sorry, what? Did you just say "a very small number of Caldari ships"?
Do you really think there's just a single type of missile?

why would you not swap your fit on an Enyo? You realise that it being Gallente doesn't mean you can't fit it with autocannons and load it with EM.

If someone has a 40% EM resist and a 90% thermal/kinetic resist, you'd be better off loading it out with EM autocannons and ignore the 10% hybrid bonus you get.

A few bubbles doesn't stop a faster cloaker coming in. It also does not stop a covert cyno.

It will be done in a high enough frequency to be statistically relevant.

If the tears being generated in this thread are any indication at the very idea that Local might be removed or altered, the tears are going to be EPICALLY GLORIOUS when CCP actually does iterate on the feature.

Then form a response fleet, bait them into dropping, and then give them a bloody nose. Do this enough times and they will pick a new group to mess with.

EVE is easy if you're not lazy and expect CCP to hand you things.

I'm perfectly fine with the current system, I don't need CCP to change things.

note that in a delayed local scenario, we'd need to have the response fleet there 24x7 because we couldn't -see- the scouts, and that response fleet has to cover 60 systems which has implications for the kinds of pilots that would need to be committed. It all sounds remarkably improbable to me.

Please tell me how many Caldari ships get a general bonus to missile damage rather than a bonus to missile kinetic damage.

(ProTip: You're better off firing kinetic missiles if you're kinetic bonused than you are firing EM missiles at a ship with a small EM hole. But this is really technical PvP type stuff and I don't expect someone who can't even figure out how to rat while aligned to understand. )

You are really, really reaching now.

Do you know what kind of damage unbonused AutoCannons get? Like 100. And that's paper DPS, not applied DPS. (ProTip: Applied DPS of unbonused ACs sucks). You'd be better off using Void in your example.

And? Having Local isn't going to save you from a Covert Cyno. You should stop posting.

Bla bla bla, I'm really mad at you for making me feel stupid so I'm going to refrain from trying to make any points and just insult you instead.

If the tears being generated in this thread are any indication at the very idea that Local might be removed or altered, the tears are going to be EPICALLY GLORIOUS when CCP actually does iterate on the feature.