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Careby
Careby Exploration
146
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Posted - 2013.12.16 15:01:00 -
[31] - Quote
Dixon Cutter wrote:What is this frequent phenomenon, where someone would start rapidly undercutting the bids by large increments to the degree where it makes trading this item temporarily unprofitable?
The really interesting phenomenon is not that someone will undercut existing orders, but that the traders with the existing orders will follow the undercutter all the way to unprofitability.
When I want to buy or sell something quickly, I usually significantly outbid (or underbid) the best existing order. Splitting the bid/ask spread, instead of buying the ask or selling to the bid. Sometimes I get a quick fill and go on my merry way. But more often than not, I immediately get .01'ed. So I significantly outbid (or underbid) again. Often I get .01'ed again. And repeat. Sometimes I keep doing it just to see how silly the traders are. I have used single quantity buy orders to move multiple 1000's quantity buy orders all the way up to the lowest sell. Sometimes I will buy the lowest several sell orders, then run the buy orders up past where I bought, and then dump to them. Just for fun - and just to prove how ridiculous trader behavior can be (mine and yours).
When it's an item I really do want to trade in, I'll have positions buying AND selling, and I will have determined where I want the buy and sell price to be, and what I want the margin to be, and I will DEFEND my positions. I won't follow some single quantity order all over the map. If somebody splits the bid and ask with an order, I don't change my orders, I buy or sell their order, removing it from "my" market. The only way that can hurt me is if my initial numbers were wrong, and in that case I need to correct them.
Sarcasm is OP |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
17
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Posted - 2013.12.16 16:25:00 -
[32] - Quote
Zosius wrote:I do this all the time. I check orders now once a week instead of daily updating. I cut it so much, put a lot of sells and buys at very small margin. Having big ISK reserves I can allow myself to keep large numbers of stock not to over supply market and use it as a short term investments. I often enough trade to loss particular items, because i don't care as long as i have goods moving in and out. Sooner or later market adjusts and you just have to be alert not to invest too much in big swings. Granted, market swings are the biggest threat to small margin trading.
Sadly I have never received any hate mail :(.
Traders getting upset over their margin getting squeezed are doing it wrong :P .
With a wide portfolio of products I simply don't care if some of them are getting crushed, if I suspect someone is trying to muscle me and others out of the market I just respond with the 0.1 isking.
The only exception to that would be high volume volatile items. I don't like having to babysit orders for hours, so I mostly stay out of those, unless I see a historically low buy price combined with big margin.
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Jenjuan
Amargosa Observatory
0
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Posted - 2013.12.16 16:34:00 -
[33] - Quote
You really didn't show a good example, 1 order does not a market make. Sometimes, when I would want to aquire a BPO, I had time and didn't need it right away, so I'd put up a buy order for a couple hundred million less than whatever the going rate was. Sometimes I would get it and sometimes I wouldn't.
As for the .01 wars, well that's part of the price of selling something that everyone else is trying to sell. For the most part I don't sell in Jita, because I don't want to spend ALL my game time managing my orders. Instead I manufacture VAST quantities of items, (Dozens of Ships, Hundreds of Mid-ranged items, Thousands of Lower end items) and post them for sale at rates anywhere from 25 to 100% higher than Jita. Because of their high prices and out of the way locations, I usually don't have to replace the orders for anywhere from a month to 3 months, but almost all my orders sell out before they expire and I make quite a decent profit margin along the way. The best part is my TIME is freed to do other more interesting things than sit around and babysit orders from others who are trying to undercut me by a penny. Most of the places I sell in don't really have anyone else selling the same items. If I find that there's too much competition at a Station to where I have to start playing the undercut game, I simply more my wares to another station. |
Jenjuan
Amargosa Observatory
0
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Posted - 2013.12.16 16:41:00 -
[34] - Quote
TheSmokingHertog wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:TheSmokingHertog wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:
People are motivated by incentive. The motivation for cutting price is obvious, to make the sale and we see that RL all the time. The thing you don't see RL is the big crazy price changes we see in Eve.
Did you ever follow dayprices of palm-oil in Europe? They have such changes. Nope, never have. I suspect it is a rather small market? Its a very depended market. Table 1. Palm oil: production, export, import, and consumption (for food and non-food purposes) in 2011/12. All figures are million tonnes. Production:50.7 (Indonesia 25.9, Malaysia 18.2, Thailand 1.5, Columbia 0.9, Nigeria 0.8, other 3.4) Exports:39.0 (Indonesia 18.2, Malaysia 16.6, other 4.2) Imports: 38.1 (India 7.5, China 5.8, EU-27 5.2, Pakistan 2.1, Bangladesh 1.0, USA 1.0, other 15.5) Consumption: 48.9 (India 7.4, Indonesia 7.1, China 5.8, EU-27 5.1, Malaysia 3.0, Pakistan 2.1, Nigeria 1.3, Thailand 1.1, USA 1.0, Bangladesh 1.0, other 14.0) When exports from Indonesia or other exporters have problems, you see it in the price immediately. Think about storms, piracy in the horn of Africa, or just a delayed oil tanker, tax changes, etc.
Forget Palm Oil, look at Crude Oil. I remember back in the Early 80's when Reagan was trying to destroy the Soviet Empire. He knew that 80% of the Soviet's cash reserves came from oil, so he hatched a plan to demolish the price of oil, thereby demolishing the Soviet Economy.
Step One: He worked with Congress to eliminate over 250 regulations on the Oil Industry, the end result was that even Dupont, which had been absent from the Oil business for nearly 50 years re-entered the Oil Drilling business, along with hundreds of other newcomers.
Step Two: He worked with the Saudi's to DOUBLE Oil production out of the Middle East.
Results: Tankers would come to the U.S. and were unable to unload because there was actually no place to store them! The ensuing oil Glut caused the price of Oil to go from $80.00 a Barrel to around $8.00 a barrel in a SINGLE year!
If the market is flooded with anything, your price WILL fall. Only shortages produce higher prices, which is why I don't sell in Jita.
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Lfod Shi
Lfod's Ratting and Salvage
146
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Posted - 2013.12.16 22:56:00 -
[35] - Quote
As long as I get value added I don't care how low I go. Since I gather most resources through time and missiles, not through pretend money investment, that price can go pretty low. 
...end transmission...
GÖ¬ They'll always be bloodclaws to me GÖ˝ |
Paranoid Loyd
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
95
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Posted - 2013.12.16 23:04:00 -
[36] - Quote
Lfod Shi wrote:As long as I get value added I don't care how low I go. Since I gather most resources through time and missiles, not through pretend money investment, that price can go pretty low.
MIMAF? Apparently your time is not worth much.  |
Lfod Shi
Lfod's Ratting and Salvage
146
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Posted - 2013.12.17 02:24:00 -
[37] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Lfod Shi wrote:As long as I get value added I don't care how low I go. Since I gather most resources through time and missiles, not through pretend money investment, that price can go pretty low. MIMAF? Apparently your time is not worth much.
Depends on how that time is spent.
...end transmission...
GÖ¬ They'll always be bloodclaws to me GÖ˝ |
Lieutenant Severn
Caldari State Venture Capital
0
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Posted - 2013.12.17 10:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
It's actually pretty simple, I'll admit to doing this in many of the markets I work in too. Smart traders will do this for exactly the same reason you are posting here. It annoys the competition and when you undercut like this, only about 10% of the active traders will follow - meaning you get your order filled faster.
All your doing when station trading is charging for your time updating orders - As it is, assuming your one of the 770M orders you are trying to net circa 320M (minus taxes) for one trade but the guy flipping at 931/1090 in your example nets him 159M profit for one trade (minus taxes)
He's willing to facilitate the trade for less than you are. As a result he will see more trade than you and probably makes more money as a result. You sound like the sort of trader who is out to screw the buyer completely, which is probably why your not very good at it. |
Boomhaur
161
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Posted - 2013.12.18 04:45:00 -
[39] - Quote
Simple I have crashed prices down low enough in some markets all my competition picked up and left for Jita. This gave me a good week of having almost no competition and than slow competition compared to before for an additional 2weeks after that. So I made very little money at first, lost actually if you looked at isk/h compared to anything else I could have done. But made it up with the isk I made by being one of if not the only active seller for awhile. Pretty much if you bought that product that you bought it from me and I set the prices.
Welcome to Eve. Everyone here is an Evil Sick Sadistic Bastard who is out to get you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to scam you or use you. |
Jenjuan
Amargosa Observatory
1
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Posted - 2013.12.18 12:56:00 -
[40] - Quote
Boomhaur wrote:Simple I have crashed prices down low enough in some markets all my competition picked up and left for Jita. This gave me a good week of having almost no competition and than slow competition compared to before for an additional 2weeks after that. So I made very little money at first, lost actually if you looked at isk/h compared to anything else I could have done. But made it up with the isk I made by being one of if not the only active seller for awhile. Pretty much if you bought that product that you bought it from me and I set the prices.
You've obviously never been in competition with me.
If you consistently sell below cost, I'll buy your entire inventory and resell it elseware, where people aren't so stupid. Just last month, I spent 2 Billion buying out everything some ID10T guy had posted, turned around and took the stuff to another system and after going through less than HALF of the inventory, got all my money back.
I mean, how DUMB is that!
I mean if you're going to sell SIGNIFICANTLY below cost, you might as well just refine back to minerals and sell that! |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
391
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Posted - 2013.12.18 18:00:00 -
[41] - Quote
There's nothing even remotely mysterious about that. They wanted their order filled, so they priced at a level that would discourage others from following them.
What's generally less sensible are the people who undercut by a significant chunk that's still far too small to actually discourage competition.
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Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
697
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Posted - 2013.12.18 20:16:00 -
[42] - Quote
The fun part is when the rest of the station traders absentmindedly follow and you realized you changed the buy prices across the region, and in some cases, across all of EVE! |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
127
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Posted - 2013.12.19 01:49:00 -
[43] - Quote
Sometimes I like to boost buy orders just because it is an item I want to dump into the buy orders , but they are too low in price or not enough of them. Lemmings follow my buys up, and when I establish enough to satisfy the amount and price I want, I pull the buy order(s) and sell. Good times.
Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words.
Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions.
Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character.
And character is everything. - author unknown |
Mhax Arthie
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
193
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Posted - 2013.12.19 12:02:00 -
[44] - Quote
Market bot. And I see a lot of them lately, they are annoying as fuk. |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
167
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Posted - 2013.12.19 13:31:00 -
[45] - Quote
Mhax Arthie wrote:Market bot. And I see a lot of them lately, they are annoying as fuk.
Do you report them? |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
393
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Posted - 2013.12.19 16:39:00 -
[46] - Quote
Mhax Arthie wrote:Market bot. And I see a lot of them lately, they are annoying as fuk.
This theory is idiotic. Bots, being immune to fatigue, boredom, and carpal tunnel syndrome, have zero motivation to try to price anyone else out of a market - they can play .01 all day. |
Bill Saisima
State War Academy
Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2013.12.20 09:48:00 -
[47] - Quote
I generally don't care. There's too many people doing it and I don't have time to research their psychology. I sell my stock at the price I can and move away of that product temporarily if I get better margins out of something else. As long as I'm consistently moving stuff I'm making profit over the month. I could hold onto the inventory but then my isk is sitting there and I may even make even more loss over time. It's rarely worth it to speculate unless you're pretty sure what the outcome is.
edit: About bots, it happened this one time I suspected a bot. I trade daily since the last 4 months, most of it (volume-wise) in Jita 4/4. |
Mhax Arthie
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
193
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Posted - 2013.12.20 09:50:00 -
[48] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Mhax Arthie wrote:Market bot. And I see a lot of them lately, they are annoying as fuk. This theory is idiotic. Bots, being immune to fatigue, boredom, and carpal tunnel syndrome, have zero motivation to try to price anyone else out of a market - they can play .01 all day.
There is multiple way to set up a bot, one of them is to keep the buy orders 5% (or less) under the sell price. Problem is when a bot is set up to drive region orders with the same rules.
No point in reporting them as I'm sure that Dr. E. is already watching these fukers as they start to mess pretty bad with the economy. |
Capt Under
Starlight Holdings
Starlight Inception.
1
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Posted - 2013.12.20 20:57:00 -
[49] - Quote
Debra Tao wrote:
tl;dr **** the 0.01 isk war i don't have time for that.
This,
0.01 isk wars show reckless greed (fat cats with a bad attitude) and dedicated for social losers with no real life except maybe a big wallet. So the moment I see someone trying to play that game and not share the market with me or other "casual traders", I would be more than happy to ruin ALL their profit margins (no profit for me either but they wasted more time than me so thats a win).
If enough traders would help to destroy profit margins for 0.01 traders they would eventual be forced to change their game or they would waste to much time for little financial gain.
Just say no, **** 0.01 low-life traders |
Chi Garu
Sigillum Militum Xpisti
Fatal Ascension
13
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Posted - 2013.12.20 22:00:00 -
[50] - Quote
Capt Under wrote:Debra Tao wrote:
tl;dr **** the 0.01 isk war i don't have time for that.
This, 0.01 isk wars show reckless greed ( fat cats with a bad attitude) and dedicated for social losers with no real life except maybe a big wallet. So the moment I see someone trying to play that game and not share the market with me or other "casual traders", I would be more than happy to ruin ALL their profit margins (no profit for me either but they wasted more time than me so thats a win). If enough traders would help to destroy profit margins for 0.01 traders they would eventual be forced to change their game or they would waste to much time for little financial gain. Just say no, **** 0.01 low-life traders
Who do you think buys your no-profit orders and then re-lists them at a profitable margin? |
LittleTerror
Beer and Kebabs
124
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Posted - 2013.12.21 01:58:00 -
[51] - Quote
Nyancat Audeles wrote:The fun part is when the rest of the station traders absentmindedly follow and you realized you changed the buy prices across the region, and in some cases, across all of EVE!
You only sped up the process...
@OP
Don't buy stuff when the buy orders are (massively) over the regional low average in the last 30 days, because you will only be undercut by those who bought the stuff when it was at the CORRECT price...
All the information is right there on the price history graph/table however it is up to you to find items that are suitable to trade. |
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