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Dixon Cutter
Savvys Corp
0
   |
Posted - 2013.12.12 01:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
What is this frequent phenomenon, where someone would start rapidly undercutting the bids by large increments to the degree where it makes trading this item temporarily unprofitable? (I am not referring to the margin trading scam with large minimum volumes)
http://imgur.com/uzvPY4f
I do not see this much in the RL markets. It's a common margin-killing technique used for market manipulation in Eve, but I do not see the reasons someone would be doing that. On the surface it seems like a suicide-gank technique, just applied to the Market PvP. When I asked one of the traders who do that for the reasons, he told me: "I don't care about your profit. This is price discovery".
It made little sense to me - the definition of "price discovery" does not include any interference with the actual market. It's a method of price analysis based on the existing supply/demand factors. So what in the world are these folks doing? Is it just market vandalism or some subtle way of shifting the market currents to the benefit of the manipulators?
Also, is there a way to counter such manipulations without taking a loss? |
Selaria Unbertable
POS Mortem
Renegades Of Silence
7
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 02:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
I guess it's either one of the following:
1. That person does not want to play the .1 game and does not really care for the price, as long as it's below market, or
2. That person wants the item badly and knows, that with that difference in buy orders, other buyers will wait until his buy order is fullfilled.
Those would be my guesses. |
Ricard Chastot
Snake Eye Production
14
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 03:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
Not everyone that puts up an order is a market trader. The person that put the order up most likely wants to buy the item for 931M(+broker fees) and not for the amounts listed on the sell orders and is willing to wait for it to be filled without having to keep checking and +1 isking against traders. For a little patience he'll save some millions compared to buying from the sell orders, but not have to put in much effort beyond setting up the initial order.
I'm really not sure what's leading you to think that this is a manipulation attempt. Is there more information than what you've given us? |
Lord Jita
Lord Jita's Big Gay Corp
94
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 03:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Because **** you, that's why.
|
Debra Tao
Perkone
Caldari State
135
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 03:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
I see 2 main reasons : the guy wants to buy the good without paying the full price offered by the sell orders so he puts up a high enough buy order to see it fill quickly without having to fight the 0.01 isk war. I do that when i have to buy PLEX.
The other reason is when a good has some incredible margin and the guy doesn't have time to fight the 0.01 isk war, cutting into the profit will generally drive away a good part of the competition while generally increasing the volume of trade. I do that a lot.
tl;dr **** the 0.01 isk war i don't have time for that. |
Dixon Cutter
Savvys Corp
0
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 04:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
Thank you for your responses. However, the example I brought does not sufficiently demonstrate the actual mechanic of the manipulation. You may notice such manipulations when you see undercutting orders appear systematically and multiple times as soon as someone updates their order, and they either have a round number like 100,000,000.00 or same digit like 111,111,111.11 or 222,222,222.22. Many of them are bids for multiple items, which shows that the bidder is not a consumer, but a trader (who needs 20 implants at the same time). |
Dixon Cutter
Savvys Corp
0
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 04:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
Debra Tao wrote:I see 2 main reasons : the guy wants to buy the good without paying the full price offered by the sell orders so he puts up a high enough buy order to see it fill quickly without having to fight the 0.01 isk war. I do that when i have to buy PLEX.
The other reason is when a good has some incredible margin and the guy doesn't have time to fight the 0.01 isk war, cutting into the profit will generally drive away a good part of the competition while generally increasing the volume of trade. I do that a lot.
tl;dr **** the 0.01 isk war i don't have time for that.
Debra, that's a good method for when you want immediate profit for a singular or a small number of transactions. There is a positive side to the 0.01 ISK war - it keeps margins at the optimally profitable levels longer, which means repeatable profit opportunities. In 50% of heavy undercutting cases, especially those that contain multiple items, the 0.01 ISKers start piling on top... |
PopplerRo
10
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 07:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Would it ever be possible the person setting the high buy order is also in fact a seller and is attempting to raise the average buy order to hopefully push up the sell order before they cash out.?
example I buy high quantities of item A at low price x, I then begin setting higher and higher buy orders x+1, x+2 etc etc. If lucky overtime the sell order price may increase depending on supply/demand(yes, it's a gamble but profitable when it works) and then you begin cashing out just before you think the price is about to plateau out.
But from the image it just appears like the person wanted their buy order to fill fast and still receive the item cheaper than the sell order, no manipulation going on. Maybe a little OCD but I would have rounded off the number rather than what looks like just putting a random amount greater than other buy orders :p |
Zahara Cody
Imperial Corrections Service.
49
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 07:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Lord Jita wrote:Because **** you, that's why.
GÖÑ
|
Aluka 7th
95
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 09:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
I see couple of reasons why would you undercut by bigger margin.
Example A
Item *** is on market for 10mil and costs 2mil to produce. Couple of guys play isk war at 10mil and that item is at 3-4mil in other regions. Sell volume is low and it wont get any bigger. If I have volume of that product, I'll put it for quite less then 10mil, probably 4-6mil and crash the price. Also manufacturing costs between people could be very different. In example someone used buy order and someone used sell order.
Example B (also mentioned by PopplerRo)
I want to make a profit on market diff of item ***. I put buy order for 4mil, it sells for 10 and i set up sell order for 4,5mil.
Now if I'm above some "usual" price, sellers will often sell to my buy order as it is already close to my sell order. As long as I'm buying little faster then selling I'm making 300-350k per transaction. Works best with fast moving items that goes in volume.
Example C
I came across item in loot can of guy I killed and want to convert it to cash as fast as possible to upgrade my pew pew ship and have fun in this game.
....... |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
2141
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 10:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
Also:
I sell a stack to a buy order. I'm an idiot and don't use the simple option, or set it to a duration immediate. The stack is bigger than the order.
I now have a sell order at the price of the buy order, for all the remaining items.
Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Billy Hix
Team JK
36
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 10:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
I do this sometimes when the market has been manipulated up and I want to get the stuff cheaper. It works best on a highly traded product.
Keep dropping the price and hope that someone else 0.1 isks you. Then do it again (sometimes I will just fight with myself. Others 0.1isk you and you set a new baseline for prices. Once it drops enough, I buy up a load. |
virm pasuul
Mine 'N' Refine
The Unforgiven Alliance
58
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 11:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
It's also a way to PVP.
They may want you our of "their" market segment. If they are aggressive enough you might leave.
You can also see this in real life where sometimes a business will sell stuff at a loss to drive the competition away or out of business.
A short term loss - even a big one - may make sense to drive away the competition for long term profit.
add in alcohol and a healthy dose of f**k you buddy on top and it can snowball :)
|
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
167
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 12:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
Undercutting for me has 2 reasons
- Pushing people out of the market by dumping stock
- I still make profit by undercutting under the production price lvls of others and make my money based on a high turnover
Undercutting that I see by others
- Mining gets you ' Free Minerals'
- People who dont get marketing mechanics and just dump stuff in the market
*
The picture you posted shows someone who wants a guaranteed buy.
Massive market manipulation is very normal in RL, think about the Libor fines of the moment.
*
The "price discovery" is not a term I would use, I would prefer to call it "testing market elasticity".
- Do others have stocks,
- Is it mostly a station trading or (inter) regional market,
- do people monitor the market,
- what is the production-cycle-reaction-time by producers,
- on what margin do industrialists leave the market,
- etc.
*
About countering the market, if it is a speculational station market, just wait out the wave and act acordingly.
If its an interregional market dominated by Industrialts, try to compete on volume, in stead of price.
Its dependant on the situation
*
And what other said ;)... Driving up the price by buy order lvl, or a market noob wanting a short term solution. The only annoying people are the ones like Billy Hix ;). |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family
Advent of Fate
365
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 12:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Dixon Cutter wrote:[b]
I do not see this much in the RL markets.
Yeah you do.
Megacorp arrives in a new town. sells stuff at a loss until the local family owned retailors are dead. then jacks up prices.
Now the only jobs are lower wages and oppressive conditions that take no account of peoples out of work lives. Yet more people semi - enslaved by the invisible bonds of capitalism.
short term losses to drive out competition to gain market share and future margins is not a rare rl action.
here is a list of all the fiat currencies that didn't end up at zero value.....and here is a list of the places where a currency pegged to a real commodity has successfully co-existed with compound interest....-á Here is a physics professor explaining why sustainable growth isn't a thing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY |
Elizabetha Zateki
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 19:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
It's a far more realistic method of price discovery than undercutting by .01isk every 5 minutes.
It's a time/effort tradeoff. I, objectively, value my time and effort higher than those who want to spend their time checking their orders every 5 minutes to make sure they're on top. I say that without prejudice or insult; if they want to play that game, they are free to do so.
I'm simply happy to drive margins to slim levels in exchange for far more certainty that when I check my orders in a couple of hours time, they'll still be on top. |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
126
|
Posted - 2013.12.13 03:00:00 -
[17] - Quote
OP
There is sooo much more to market PVP then just .01 isking. The more expensive the item is the more likely you are dealing with someone who has been playing this game a while.
Why is that important? Reserves, Standings, and Margin Trading Skills. If they have an advantage in any or all of these they can and WILL force you out of the market if they choose devote the effort.
There are people in this game who will happily take a loss for a week (or more ) in exchange for an otherwise profitable month.
You have been called out. Now decide if you will accept the challenge or fold.
Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words.
Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions.
Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character.
And character is everything. - author unknown |
Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
162
|
Posted - 2013.12.13 03:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
Dixon Cutter wrote: It's a common margin-killing technique used for market manipulation in Eve, but I do not see the reasons someone would be doing that.
Big margins attract a lot of competition. Small margins keeps people away.
|
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1002
|
Posted - 2013.12.13 14:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
If immediate undercutting is preventing me from making a profit, why should I let you prosper? |
Adunh Slavy
1296
|
Posted - 2013.12.13 14:36:00 -
[20] - Quote
Quote:I do not see this much in the RL markets. It's a common margin-killing technique used for market manipulation in Eve, but I do not see the reasons someone would be doing that. On the surface it seems like a suicide-gank technique, just applied to the Market PvP. When I asked one of the traders who do that for the reasons, he told me: "I don't care about your profit. This is price discovery".
People are motivated by incentive. The motivation for cutting price is obvious, to make the sale and we see that RL all the time. The thing you don't see RL is the big crazy price changes we see in Eve.
Again, it goes to incentive. No one in Eve has to eat, pay the mortgage save for retirement or save for the cat's liver operation. There is no incentive to not starve to death.
Also, compared to the real world, the Eve markets are tiny. Small markets tend to experience more price volatility. The fewer participants there are in a market, the less diverse is the pool of value judgements, or stated another way, much larger divergence in the possible participants' marginal utility of money.
For those of you who want an empirical view: If utils could be measured, which of course they can not, but bear with me here, imagine you could average out all the marginal utility of money for all of the participants in a market. And then average all those below and all those above the over all average. In the real world, the high average and the low average would be closer to the overall average. In a small market, the average high and average low utilities are further from the overall average.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |
Doctorkaba
Spiritus Draconis
Sicarius Draconis
22
|
Posted - 2013.12.13 16:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
Eh I chalk it up mainly to people being buttes about the whole thing. I use to sell t2 drones in dodi and there was this one guy who would undercut me and reduce the profits by sooo much. Since his order was big enough and others were not very patient they .01 isked him and he would undercut by a large margin etc etc....
I sold some drones to him and found his name and sent him a mail and he said he was tired of .01 isk wars and was satisfied with lower profit at the cost of selling stuff. Now I dont think he actually sold much this way but i could be wrong.
A lot of the point brought up in this thread are valid, some i didnt even think about xD, can't ever know why a person does what he does, even if you ask. I like to compare it to regular pvp. It is a lot like bringing more numbers or off grid boosters or *insert non e-honor ship/tactic* to a "fair" fight. Did you have to? Maybe not, but its not about having a close fight for them, all they want is a killmail and a nice green line on the killboard. Its how duders play, can't do too much against that beside have an investment in a lot of other items and hope those duders dont multiply...
Want some pvp help? Like to fly small and fast frigates? Then join the in game channel Tenori_Tigers! |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
1311
|
Posted - 2013.12.14 04:13:00 -
[22] - Quote
Stealing a sale from a competitor is a small victory in market PVP. Like blowing up someone's Celestis.
Making your competitor fume and then drop out of the market entirely is a major victory, on par with stealing their Erebus.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content.
An enemy is just a friend that you stab in the front. |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
167
|
Posted - 2013.12.14 04:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:
People are motivated by incentive. The motivation for cutting price is obvious, to make the sale and we see that RL all the time. The thing you don't see RL is the big crazy price changes we see in Eve.
Did you ever follow dayprices of palm-oil in Europe? They have such changes.
|
Adunh Slavy
1296
|
Posted - 2013.12.14 13:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
TheSmokingHertog wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:
People are motivated by incentive. The motivation for cutting price is obvious, to make the sale and we see that RL all the time. The thing you don't see RL is the big crazy price changes we see in Eve.
Did you ever follow dayprices of palm-oil in Europe? They have such changes.
Nope, never have. I suspect it is a rather small market?
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
167
|
Posted - 2013.12.14 16:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:TheSmokingHertog wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:
People are motivated by incentive. The motivation for cutting price is obvious, to make the sale and we see that RL all the time. The thing you don't see RL is the big crazy price changes we see in Eve.
Did you ever follow dayprices of palm-oil in Europe? They have such changes. Nope, never have. I suspect it is a rather small market?
Its a very depended market.
Table 1. Palm oil: production, export, import, and consumption (for food and non-food purposes) in 2011/12. All figures are million tonnes.
Production:50.7 (Indonesia 25.9, Malaysia 18.2, Thailand 1.5, Columbia 0.9, Nigeria 0.8, other 3.4)
Exports:39.0 (Indonesia 18.2, Malaysia 16.6, other 4.2)
Imports: 38.1 (India 7.5, China 5.8, EU-27 5.2, Pakistan 2.1, Bangladesh 1.0, USA 1.0, other 15.5)
Consumption: 48.9 (India 7.4, Indonesia 7.1, China 5.8, EU-27 5.1, Malaysia 3.0, Pakistan 2.1, Nigeria 1.3, Thailand 1.1, USA 1.0, Bangladesh 1.0, other 14.0)
When exports from Indonesia or other exporters have problems, you see it in the price immediately. Think about storms, piracy in the horn of Africa, or just a delayed oil tanker, tax changes, etc. |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2013.12.14 18:06:00 -
[26] - Quote
They could do it for lulz, for the fast sell, for trying to force ppl out of the market or just out of plain stupidity. Doesn't really matter, what matters is how you deal with it. |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
190
|
Posted - 2013.12.14 19:47:00 -
[27] - Quote
In the bitchin about it aspect of the thread (this thread comes up so often I think that it is a cathartic release of angst venting of frustration)
As I value my time more than the extra ISK, I like to put items up for sale in stations in a region where no other traders are operating.
I will purposely price my items higher than the other traders to show that I am not agressively competing with them.
It irritates me when they still come into "my" station, and put product for sale.
BUT, even though I am irritated, I do understand their motivation IF they are willing to spend lots of time trading.
They hope to drive me out of the region by wasting my time. They want to harvest all of the volume in the region.
-
However.. "them be fighting words" for me if I am playing the game actively .. and even if I'm just updating skill q's it is a matter of pride that I agressively check those prices.
If they get too cheeky about it, I'll bring in extra inventory and distribute it in many stations.
-
"Honor among thieves" - I think it is good etiquette to stay out of others stations in far flung regions. It is sort of prisoners dilemma: if traders decide to cooperate there is more profit all around.
Because the profits and turn-over are fairly slim in far off regions.. especially when you are drastically over pricing things... the practice is only worth the time when there is very little time investment (checking prices once a month ideally)
Most common Result - rather than me being driven from the market by their agressive attempts to take over "my" station, they end up losing interest in the region after a month and leave it back with me...
... it is a fruitless waste of time for them and hurts my profits and wastes my time too
 But, this is a PvP game an to be honest, it makes it more fun sparring with another human than making more ISK
. |
Mr Pragmatic
796
|
Posted - 2013.12.14 20:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
I undercut b.c I can. Plus I want the short sale. I'm not marketing. I'm just selling mission loot. The buy orders are normally so low, it's stupid not to undercut and get the sale.
Super cali hella yolo swaga dopeness. -á-Yoloswaggins, in the fellowship of the bling. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
1321
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 01:20:00 -
[29] - Quote
Market tears, best tears
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content.
An enemy is just a friend that you stab in the front. |
Zosius
United System's Commonwealth
21
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 14:24:00 -
[30] - Quote
I do this all the time. I check orders now once a week instead of daily updating. I cut it so much, put a lot of sells and buys at very small margin. Having big ISK reserves I can allow myself to keep large numbers of stock not to over supply market and use it as a short term investments. I often enough trade to loss particular items, because i don't care as long as i have goods moving in and out. Sooner or later market adjusts and you just have to be alert not to invest too much in big swings. Granted, market swings are the biggest threat to small margin trading.
Sadly I have never received any hate mail :(. |
Careby
Careby Exploration
146
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 15:01:00 -
[31] - Quote
Dixon Cutter wrote:What is this frequent phenomenon, where someone would start rapidly undercutting the bids by large increments to the degree where it makes trading this item temporarily unprofitable?
The really interesting phenomenon is not that someone will undercut existing orders, but that the traders with the existing orders will follow the undercutter all the way to unprofitability.
When I want to buy or sell something quickly, I usually significantly outbid (or underbid) the best existing order. Splitting the bid/ask spread, instead of buying the ask or selling to the bid. Sometimes I get a quick fill and go on my merry way. But more often than not, I immediately get .01'ed. So I significantly outbid (or underbid) again. Often I get .01'ed again. And repeat. Sometimes I keep doing it just to see how silly the traders are. I have used single quantity buy orders to move multiple 1000's quantity buy orders all the way up to the lowest sell. Sometimes I will buy the lowest several sell orders, then run the buy orders up past where I bought, and then dump to them. Just for fun - and just to prove how ridiculous trader behavior can be (mine and yours).
When it's an item I really do want to trade in, I'll have positions buying AND selling, and I will have determined where I want the buy and sell price to be, and what I want the margin to be, and I will DEFEND my positions. I won't follow some single quantity order all over the map. If somebody splits the bid and ask with an order, I don't change my orders, I buy or sell their order, removing it from "my" market. The only way that can hurt me is if my initial numbers were wrong, and in that case I need to correct them.
Sarcasm is OP |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 16:25:00 -
[32] - Quote
Zosius wrote:I do this all the time. I check orders now once a week instead of daily updating. I cut it so much, put a lot of sells and buys at very small margin. Having big ISK reserves I can allow myself to keep large numbers of stock not to over supply market and use it as a short term investments. I often enough trade to loss particular items, because i don't care as long as i have goods moving in and out. Sooner or later market adjusts and you just have to be alert not to invest too much in big swings. Granted, market swings are the biggest threat to small margin trading.
Sadly I have never received any hate mail :(.
Traders getting upset over their margin getting squeezed are doing it wrong :P .
With a wide portfolio of products I simply don't care if some of them are getting crushed, if I suspect someone is trying to muscle me and others out of the market I just respond with the 0.1 isking.
The only exception to that would be high volume volatile items. I don't like having to babysit orders for hours, so I mostly stay out of those, unless I see a historically low buy price combined with big margin.
|
Jenjuan
Amargosa Observatory
0
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 16:34:00 -
[33] - Quote
You really didn't show a good example, 1 order does not a market make. Sometimes, when I would want to aquire a BPO, I had time and didn't need it right away, so I'd put up a buy order for a couple hundred million less than whatever the going rate was. Sometimes I would get it and sometimes I wouldn't.
As for the .01 wars, well that's part of the price of selling something that everyone else is trying to sell. For the most part I don't sell in Jita, because I don't want to spend ALL my game time managing my orders. Instead I manufacture VAST quantities of items, (Dozens of Ships, Hundreds of Mid-ranged items, Thousands of Lower end items) and post them for sale at rates anywhere from 25 to 100% higher than Jita. Because of their high prices and out of the way locations, I usually don't have to replace the orders for anywhere from a month to 3 months, but almost all my orders sell out before they expire and I make quite a decent profit margin along the way. The best part is my TIME is freed to do other more interesting things than sit around and babysit orders from others who are trying to undercut me by a penny. Most of the places I sell in don't really have anyone else selling the same items. If I find that there's too much competition at a Station to where I have to start playing the undercut game, I simply more my wares to another station. |
Jenjuan
Amargosa Observatory
0
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 16:41:00 -
[34] - Quote
TheSmokingHertog wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:TheSmokingHertog wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:
People are motivated by incentive. The motivation for cutting price is obvious, to make the sale and we see that RL all the time. The thing you don't see RL is the big crazy price changes we see in Eve.
Did you ever follow dayprices of palm-oil in Europe? They have such changes. Nope, never have. I suspect it is a rather small market? Its a very depended market. Table 1. Palm oil: production, export, import, and consumption (for food and non-food purposes) in 2011/12. All figures are million tonnes. Production:50.7 (Indonesia 25.9, Malaysia 18.2, Thailand 1.5, Columbia 0.9, Nigeria 0.8, other 3.4) Exports:39.0 (Indonesia 18.2, Malaysia 16.6, other 4.2) Imports: 38.1 (India 7.5, China 5.8, EU-27 5.2, Pakistan 2.1, Bangladesh 1.0, USA 1.0, other 15.5) Consumption: 48.9 (India 7.4, Indonesia 7.1, China 5.8, EU-27 5.1, Malaysia 3.0, Pakistan 2.1, Nigeria 1.3, Thailand 1.1, USA 1.0, Bangladesh 1.0, other 14.0) When exports from Indonesia or other exporters have problems, you see it in the price immediately. Think about storms, piracy in the horn of Africa, or just a delayed oil tanker, tax changes, etc.
Forget Palm Oil, look at Crude Oil. I remember back in the Early 80's when Reagan was trying to destroy the Soviet Empire. He knew that 80% of the Soviet's cash reserves came from oil, so he hatched a plan to demolish the price of oil, thereby demolishing the Soviet Economy.
Step One: He worked with Congress to eliminate over 250 regulations on the Oil Industry, the end result was that even Dupont, which had been absent from the Oil business for nearly 50 years re-entered the Oil Drilling business, along with hundreds of other newcomers.
Step Two: He worked with the Saudi's to DOUBLE Oil production out of the Middle East.
Results: Tankers would come to the U.S. and were unable to unload because there was actually no place to store them! The ensuing oil Glut caused the price of Oil to go from $80.00 a Barrel to around $8.00 a barrel in a SINGLE year!
If the market is flooded with anything, your price WILL fall. Only shortages produce higher prices, which is why I don't sell in Jita.
|
Lfod Shi
Lfod's Ratting and Salvage
146
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 22:56:00 -
[35] - Quote
As long as I get value added I don't care how low I go. Since I gather most resources through time and missiles, not through pretend money investment, that price can go pretty low. 
...end transmission...
GÖ¬ They'll always be bloodclaws to me GÖ½ |
Paranoid Loyd
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
95
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 23:04:00 -
[36] - Quote
Lfod Shi wrote:As long as I get value added I don't care how low I go. Since I gather most resources through time and missiles, not through pretend money investment, that price can go pretty low.
MIMAF? Apparently your time is not worth much.  |
Lfod Shi
Lfod's Ratting and Salvage
146
|
Posted - 2013.12.17 02:24:00 -
[37] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Lfod Shi wrote:As long as I get value added I don't care how low I go. Since I gather most resources through time and missiles, not through pretend money investment, that price can go pretty low. MIMAF? Apparently your time is not worth much.
Depends on how that time is spent.
...end transmission...
GÖ¬ They'll always be bloodclaws to me GÖ½ |
Lieutenant Severn
Caldari State Venture Capital
0
|
Posted - 2013.12.17 10:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
It's actually pretty simple, I'll admit to doing this in many of the markets I work in too. Smart traders will do this for exactly the same reason you are posting here. It annoys the competition and when you undercut like this, only about 10% of the active traders will follow - meaning you get your order filled faster.
All your doing when station trading is charging for your time updating orders - As it is, assuming your one of the 770M orders you are trying to net circa 320M (minus taxes) for one trade but the guy flipping at 931/1090 in your example nets him 159M profit for one trade (minus taxes)
He's willing to facilitate the trade for less than you are. As a result he will see more trade than you and probably makes more money as a result. You sound like the sort of trader who is out to screw the buyer completely, which is probably why your not very good at it. |
Boomhaur
161
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 04:45:00 -
[39] - Quote
Simple I have crashed prices down low enough in some markets all my competition picked up and left for Jita. This gave me a good week of having almost no competition and than slow competition compared to before for an additional 2weeks after that. So I made very little money at first, lost actually if you looked at isk/h compared to anything else I could have done. But made it up with the isk I made by being one of if not the only active seller for awhile. Pretty much if you bought that product that you bought it from me and I set the prices.
Welcome to Eve. Everyone here is an Evil Sick Sadistic Bastard who is out to get you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to scam you or use you. |
Jenjuan
Amargosa Observatory
1
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 12:56:00 -
[40] - Quote
Boomhaur wrote:Simple I have crashed prices down low enough in some markets all my competition picked up and left for Jita. This gave me a good week of having almost no competition and than slow competition compared to before for an additional 2weeks after that. So I made very little money at first, lost actually if you looked at isk/h compared to anything else I could have done. But made it up with the isk I made by being one of if not the only active seller for awhile. Pretty much if you bought that product that you bought it from me and I set the prices.
You've obviously never been in competition with me.
If you consistently sell below cost, I'll buy your entire inventory and resell it elseware, where people aren't so stupid. Just last month, I spent 2 Billion buying out everything some ID10T guy had posted, turned around and took the stuff to another system and after going through less than HALF of the inventory, got all my money back.
I mean, how DUMB is that!
I mean if you're going to sell SIGNIFICANTLY below cost, you might as well just refine back to minerals and sell that! |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
391
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 18:00:00 -
[41] - Quote
There's nothing even remotely mysterious about that. They wanted their order filled, so they priced at a level that would discourage others from following them.
What's generally less sensible are the people who undercut by a significant chunk that's still far too small to actually discourage competition.
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Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
697
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 20:16:00 -
[42] - Quote
The fun part is when the rest of the station traders absentmindedly follow and you realized you changed the buy prices across the region, and in some cases, across all of EVE! |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
127
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 01:49:00 -
[43] - Quote
Sometimes I like to boost buy orders just because it is an item I want to dump into the buy orders , but they are too low in price or not enough of them. Lemmings follow my buys up, and when I establish enough to satisfy the amount and price I want, I pull the buy order(s) and sell. Good times.
Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words.
Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions.
Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character.
And character is everything. - author unknown |
Mhax Arthie
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
193
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 12:02:00 -
[44] - Quote
Market bot. And I see a lot of them lately, they are annoying as fuk. |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
167
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 13:31:00 -
[45] - Quote
Mhax Arthie wrote:Market bot. And I see a lot of them lately, they are annoying as fuk.
Do you report them? |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
393
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 16:39:00 -
[46] - Quote
Mhax Arthie wrote:Market bot. And I see a lot of them lately, they are annoying as fuk.
This theory is idiotic. Bots, being immune to fatigue, boredom, and carpal tunnel syndrome, have zero motivation to try to price anyone else out of a market - they can play .01 all day. |
Bill Saisima
State War Academy
Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 09:48:00 -
[47] - Quote
I generally don't care. There's too many people doing it and I don't have time to research their psychology. I sell my stock at the price I can and move away of that product temporarily if I get better margins out of something else. As long as I'm consistently moving stuff I'm making profit over the month. I could hold onto the inventory but then my isk is sitting there and I may even make even more loss over time. It's rarely worth it to speculate unless you're pretty sure what the outcome is.
edit: About bots, it happened this one time I suspected a bot. I trade daily since the last 4 months, most of it (volume-wise) in Jita 4/4. |
Mhax Arthie
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
193
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 09:50:00 -
[48] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Mhax Arthie wrote:Market bot. And I see a lot of them lately, they are annoying as fuk. This theory is idiotic. Bots, being immune to fatigue, boredom, and carpal tunnel syndrome, have zero motivation to try to price anyone else out of a market - they can play .01 all day.
There is multiple way to set up a bot, one of them is to keep the buy orders 5% (or less) under the sell price. Problem is when a bot is set up to drive region orders with the same rules.
No point in reporting them as I'm sure that Dr. E. is already watching these fukers as they start to mess pretty bad with the economy. |
Capt Under
Starlight Holdings
Starlight Inception.
1
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 20:57:00 -
[49] - Quote
Debra Tao wrote:
tl;dr **** the 0.01 isk war i don't have time for that.
This,
0.01 isk wars show reckless greed (fat cats with a bad attitude) and dedicated for social losers with no real life except maybe a big wallet. So the moment I see someone trying to play that game and not share the market with me or other "casual traders", I would be more than happy to ruin ALL their profit margins (no profit for me either but they wasted more time than me so thats a win).
If enough traders would help to destroy profit margins for 0.01 traders they would eventual be forced to change their game or they would waste to much time for little financial gain.
Just say no, **** 0.01 low-life traders |
Chi Garu
Sigillum Militum Xpisti
Fatal Ascension
13
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 22:00:00 -
[50] - Quote
Capt Under wrote:Debra Tao wrote:
tl;dr **** the 0.01 isk war i don't have time for that.
This, 0.01 isk wars show reckless greed ( fat cats with a bad attitude) and dedicated for social losers with no real life except maybe a big wallet. So the moment I see someone trying to play that game and not share the market with me or other "casual traders", I would be more than happy to ruin ALL their profit margins (no profit for me either but they wasted more time than me so thats a win). If enough traders would help to destroy profit margins for 0.01 traders they would eventual be forced to change their game or they would waste to much time for little financial gain. Just say no, **** 0.01 low-life traders
Who do you think buys your no-profit orders and then re-lists them at a profitable margin? |
LittleTerror
Beer and Kebabs
124
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 01:58:00 -
[51] - Quote
Nyancat Audeles wrote:The fun part is when the rest of the station traders absentmindedly follow and you realized you changed the buy prices across the region, and in some cases, across all of EVE!
You only sped up the process...
@OP
Don't buy stuff when the buy orders are (massively) over the regional low average in the last 30 days, because you will only be undercut by those who bought the stuff when it was at the CORRECT price...
All the information is right there on the price history graph/table however it is up to you to find items that are suitable to trade. |
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