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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
765
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Posted - 2013.12.12 20:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
You have all graph vertices as in and out degrees, however, that is not how the Eve unvierse is, you are plotting one edge as two.
I fail to trust your intrepertation of the data as it seems incorrect. Eve universe is not a Di-graph. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
765
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Posted - 2013.12.12 21:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
Joe Themachine wrote:Miilla wrote:You have all graph vertices as in and out degrees as the same, however, that is not how the Eve unvierse is, you are plotting one edge as two.
I fail to trust your intrepertation of the data as it seems incorrect. Eve is not a Di-graph. The vertices didnt print out properly in this particular graph, but the analysis is correct. The Sigma.js was a little rough in exporting. Jumps in the eve universe are not directional which means that in and out degree centralization (by definition) are equal. That's not a mistake! Please review Introduction to SNA book, page 2. :)
From what you presented, the analysis is incorrect, you even stated it yourself. Come back when you get it right.
When you want to make a proof, all it takes is one failed case then it has to be revised or thrown out. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
765
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Posted - 2013.12.12 21:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
Jandice Ymladris wrote:Nice to see a deeper analysis of Eve and it's regions! Looking forward to your blogposts!
Deeper definately yes, now Eve universe has TWICE the jump connections. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
765
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 21:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Joe Themachine wrote:Dashady wrote:Uh oh am I sensing an epic nerd battle about to kick off? meh! lol..
Let me typeset my reply.
\documentclass[10pt,a4paper,draft,twoside,twocolumn]{article} \usepackage[utf8]{inputenc} \usepackage{amsmath} \usepackage{amsfonts} \usepackage{amssymb} \begin{document} \section{Conclusion} You failed. \end{document}
Eve universe is NOT a di-graph, stop modelling it as such. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
765
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 21:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
Joe Themachine wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Joe Themachine wrote:******(if you search for Jita or Rens, you'll see that they are neither, which means that they are unnatural trade hubs--all marketing and word of mouth--if the forums didn't exist Jita and Rens WOULD NOT be trade hubs) *********
Model does not mesh with reality -> reality is wrong. Well, simply explaining the "natural" order was the goal. Considering one factor among many!
Your underlaying model is incorrect, Eve universe is NOT a di-graph.
With such a flawed model, how do you expect us to take your findings seriously when your method is incorrect fundamentally? |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
767
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 21:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Joe Themachine wrote:I did forget to mention that if you click on any particular system it will show the stats on the right hand side.
Yes we can figure that out for ourselves, however it's incorrect. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
767
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 21:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Galadriel Vasquez wrote:Looks like Star Map with the jumps in last hour tab...
However, his newly reinvented wheel is square. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
768
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 21:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Joe Themachine wrote:Galadriel Vasquez wrote:Looks like Star Map with the jumps in last hour tab... yeah except it's completely structural... no traffic data at all.. its only based on which systems connect to which..
Your structure is still incorrect, Eve universe structure is NOT a directed graph. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
768
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 21:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
Galadriel Vasquez wrote:I misunderstood, I thought it was a traffic jam flow chart.
Yes directed graphs can cause that confusion they would indicate some kind of directional transition. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
768
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 21:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
Pew Terror wrote:Running specialized metrics for specific use cases (in your case network analysis) on generic graphs is as non scientific as it gets. You need to demonstrate what analysis the tool you used does and then present a case why the asssumptions of the model concerning its nodes and edges holds in this specific case. You can't just go "Im a gonna force this data through this tool i just learned existed because pretty color, look at me!".
Exectly I could have pushed the data through InfoVis as a Force Directed graph but no because it gives no real meaning
In this case, the meaning is meaningless as the underlaying model is INCORRECT for the subject domain and data sample.
We can clearly see the structure of the Eve Universe in .. Eve Universe.
Why would I want to ... open your INCORRECT modelled digraph in Javascript? |
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Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
768
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 21:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
Joe Themachine wrote:Pew Terror wrote:Running specialized metrics for specific use cases (in your case network analysis) on generic graphs is as non scientific as it gets. You need to demonstrate what analysis the tool you used does and then present a case why the asssumptions of the model concerning its nodes and edges holds in this specific case. You can't just go "Im a gonna force this data through this tool i just learned existed because pretty color, look at me!". Who said anything about scientific? It was mostly fun, and I was testing my code...:) you don't see any tests of significance do you? thanks for your insight..
Your test code failed, we pointed it out and you still won't accept the fail. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
768
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 21:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
Pew Terror wrote:Miilla wrote:Pew Terror wrote:Running specialized metrics for specific use cases (in your case network analysis) on generic graphs is as non scientific as it gets. You need to demonstrate what analysis the tool you used does and then present a case why the asssumptions of the model concerning its nodes and edges holds in this specific case. You can't just go "Im a gonna force this data through this tool i just learned existed because pretty color, look at me!". Exectly I could have pushed the data through InfoVis as a Force Directed graph but no because it gives no real meaning In this case, the meaning is meaningless as the underlaying model is INCORRECT for the subject domain and data sample. We can clearly see the structure of the Eve Universe in .. Eve Universe. Why would I want to ... open your INCORRECT modelled digraph in Javascript? I wouldn't really say incorrect, but it looks like the metric used here is level of connectedness to other nodes (im guessing as nothing about the methods was ever mentioned), which in case of eve is about as useful as measuring innovation in airplane manfucaturing by weight (to quote someone famous).
He said himself it was incorrect, he said he was modelling the Structure of the Eve universe, however, the model he is presenting of the structure is indeed incorrect. Eve universe is NOT a digraph, thus the underlaying STRUCTURE is INCORRECT. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
768
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 22:00:00 -
[13] - Quote
Pew Terror wrote:Joe Themachine wrote:Pew Terror wrote:Running specialized metrics for specific use cases (in your case network analysis) on generic graphs is as non scientific as it gets. You need to demonstrate what analysis the tool you used does and then present a case why the asssumptions of the model concerning its nodes and edges holds in this specific case. You can't just go "Im a gonna force this data through this tool i just learned existed because pretty color, look at me!". Who said anything about scientific? It was mostly fun, and I was testing my code...:) you don't see any tests of significance do you? thanks for your insight.. Testing for significance is part of statistics, not graph theory (what your tool there did where you clicked that button) and it a completly different area of mathematics. Sticking a finger in your bum can be fun as well, but the world dont need to hear of it when its not useful information.
BUT you ARE using graph theory with the underlaying model. If your underlaying MODEL is FLAWED how do you expect to get RELIABLE data out of it? |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
768
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 22:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
Joe Themachine wrote:Pew Terror wrote:Miilla wrote:Pew Terror wrote:Running specialized metrics for specific use cases (in your case network analysis) on generic graphs is as non scientific as it gets. You need to demonstrate what analysis the tool you used does and then present a case why the asssumptions of the model concerning its nodes and edges holds in this specific case. You can't just go "Im a gonna force this data through this tool i just learned existed because pretty color, look at me!". Exectly I could have pushed the data through InfoVis as a Force Directed graph but no because it gives no real meaning In this case, the meaning is meaningless as the underlaying model is INCORRECT for the subject domain and data sample. We can clearly see the structure of the Eve Universe in .. Eve Universe. Why would I want to ... open your INCORRECT modelled digraph in Javascript? I wouldn't really say incorrect, but it looks like the metric used here is level of connectedness to other nodes (im guessing as nothing about the methods was ever mentioned), which in case of eve is about as useful as measuring innovation in airplane manfucaturing by weight (to quote someone famous). Totally agree with you.. right now that, on its own is not useful..I was hoping to collaborate with others who can help turn it into a cool (and accurate tool) for capsuleers...any takers?
Collaborate with others? You mean those that don't point out the errors? |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
768
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 22:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
Joe Themachine wrote:Pew Terror wrote:Joe Themachine wrote:Pew Terror wrote:Running specialized metrics for specific use cases (in your case network analysis) on generic graphs is as non scientific as it gets. You need to demonstrate what analysis the tool you used does and then present a case why the asssumptions of the model concerning its nodes and edges holds in this specific case. You can't just go "Im a gonna force this data through this tool i just learned existed because pretty color, look at me!". Who said anything about scientific? It was mostly fun, and I was testing my code...:) you don't see any tests of significance do you? thanks for your insight.. Testing for significance is part of statistics, not graph theory (what your tool there did where you clicked that button) and it a completly different area of mathematics. Sticking a finger in your bum can be fun as well, but the world dont need to hear of it when its not useful information. Look up the QAP permutation model which is also used by UCINET... testing for significance is an ESSENTIAL part of network modelling especially for stochastic methods...
Your underlaying STRUCTURE of the Eve Universe "network" is INCORRECTLY MODELLED, your model does not reflect the system under analysis. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
768
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 22:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Joe Themachine wrote:******(if you search for Jita or Rens, you'll see that they are neither, which means that they are unnatural trade hubs--all marketing and word of mouth--if the forums didn't exist Jita and Rens WOULD NOT be trade hubs) ********* Entirely missing the nature of systems in EVE (they are not all equal, a system with a high number in your model will not necessarily have high traffic or connectivity). Entirely missing the reason trade hubs become trade hubs (the network effect). You can't derive any conclusions about "natural hubs" from your data or your pretty clicky web toy. What you can derive is that when you mash Data X through Process Y you get Result Z. Result Z might be pretty according to some people, but it is meaningless. If you want to derive information about "natural hubs" you would need to demonstrate what you mean by that term, then produce some models to illustrate how your technique can locate these "natural hubs" and then apply that technique to the network of interest. Relevant data that you haven't accounted for:
- Mission hubs (easy to find, look for NPC kills in last 24 hours)
- Production hubs (harder to find, look for volume of ore mined in last 24 hours, there are proxy values available)
- Industry hubs (look for S&I jobs completed in last 24h)
And then there's the network effect which you can't account for: everyone goes to Jita because everyone goes to Jita. That's as natural and organic a trade hub as you are ever going to find.
This tool honestly adds nothing of value, except entertainment value in the errors. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
768
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 22:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ambassador Crane wrote:Posting in a thread I have absolutely no idea what the OP was saying and even less so what these 3 are arguing about. But I can say it sounds like Miilla is having a bad day or something. On the other hand, OP sounds like he's having fun. (though how any of that hubla dubla wada wada could be fun i dunno but more power to ya ) All I can say is, it looks pretty!
As pretty as all the 1-star reviews my bots will give his book on Amazon :) I love meta gaming, especially when it costs real money :) |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
768
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Posted - 2013.12.12 22:38:00 -
[18] - Quote
Jasmine Assasin wrote:Miilla wrote:
As pretty as all the 1-star reviews my bots will give his book on Amazon :) I love meta gaming, especially when it costs real money :)
You have problems, you are the only one spouting off about OMG FLAWS in his model. But you yourself have given no indiaction that you know better or that you have the education or intelligence to convey what needs to be done here.
I made you rage I made you rage. nanan na na.
Would you prefer a Foam scraper or bucket for xmas? |
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