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Nifel
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Posted - 2006.03.07 19:26:00 -
[1]
An idea that popped up when I read this Oveur thread and put it together with j0sephine's excellent suggestion for scrambling and warping.
Proposed system would be as follows:
A new ship stat is introduced called warp stability. It ranges from 0 to x. When it's at 50% (or lower, can be played around with) you can't warp but need to wait for the warp stability to reach critial stabilitiy (said 50%). Warp scrambling removes stability in the same manner nos currently removes cap from ships.
Warp stability constantly regenerates and for the time for a frigate sized ship to warp 10 au it should regenerate from 0% to 100% on average. 50 au for cruiser sized ships to go from 0% to 100% and finally 100 au for bs sized ships. Capital sized ships, 200 au maybe? It's not like they need to warp very often.
So... instas. What I'd like to see is a change to how gates works based on this system. You warp to a gate at 0m (or within range really), once you click on jump the gate fires up and it takes you x amount of seconds based on your mass etc (ie, it varies with how big your ship is) before you actually jump. You can however speed up this process to instantly jump through by feeding the jump gate information of your ship. That process would drain a fixed amount of your warp stability.
The goal of the system is to give some of the security instas give while at the same time making sure you can't be totally invurnable (or near enough). Speedjump enough times and you'll be stuck on the other side of the gate.
And I really don't want skills involved in this. Modules that give a fixed extra amount of warp stability (wcs really) but keep the regeneration rate is fine and should be in. Any modules that would increase the regeneration rate would break the system imo though.
Do note that I don't want you to be able to insta to a station with this system. People that insta to a station and then hide in there is even more annoying than people with 8x wcs on an armageddon fit for pvp with instas all over the place. If you wanna hide in a station that's fine. But if you come out and play you better be prepared to do exactly that.
I've probably forgot a lot now as well :<.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago."
RKK Ranking: (MIN13) Jata |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.09 17:05:00 -
[2]
Was going to bump this thread earlier but kind of overslept *..* so uhh.. doing it now :P
(and no, not because it has anything to do with something i thought of, but kinda like the idea of ships taking time to align in the jumpgate instead of crawling to it and just disappearing as it is now... wanted it to be like that ever since started playing the game ^^;
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Grey Area
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Posted - 2006.03.09 17:08:00 -
[3]
Errrr....has given me a thought...will post in the "Nerf WCS" thread as it's more applicable there.
Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums;
Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?"
Cleese: "I've told you once." |
Nifel
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Posted - 2006.03.09 19:40:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Grey Area
Errrr....has given me a thought...will post in the "Nerf WCS" thread as it's more applicable there.
Link please? And I'd really like to have critism :<. Everyone critize the ideas that are just so very wrong on so many levels. But I really want input on this one.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago."
RKK Ranking: (MIN13) Jata |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.09 19:45:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 09/03/2006 19:48:25
I pointed out the fatal flaws in this idea asit stands in the origional thread..if you have an answer for them I'd love to hear them, but as it stands it dosn't really compete.
To whit:
Sociological issues
UI display
Market hubs
Mid-system safes
Hauler travel in high sec
Coverts and warp-to's
Survivability for frigate tacklers
etc.
Plus, Nifel, if they can't insta to the station they'll just log.
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
Grey Area
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Posted - 2006.03.09 22:39:00 -
[6]
LINK to stabs/scramblers idea as requested.
Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums;
Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?"
Cleese: "I've told you once." |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.09 22:42:00 -
[7]
I still favour a stack-based system
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
Nifel
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Posted - 2006.03.10 10:00:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Grey Area
LINK to stabs/scramblers idea as requested.
OK. Basically the same? Or did I miss something?
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago."
RKK Ranking: (MIN13) Jata |
Grey Area
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Posted - 2006.03.10 10:04:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Grey Area on 10/03/2006 10:07:17
I think you missed something 
Your post is about Insta's, my post is about warp scrambling in combat...and the recharge reduction penalty for jumping at less than 100% capacity is new, I think.
Edit: Sorry, just followed you link to j0sephine's thread, and it IS very similar! My system makes smaller ships harder to nail dwon than bigger ones, hers is the reverse...but yes, very similar.
I PROMISE I came up with it on my own...but hats off to j0sephine for getting there first!
Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums;
Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?"
Cleese: "I've told you once." |
Nifel
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Posted - 2006.03.10 10:37:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 09/03/2006 19:48:25
I pointed out the fatal flaws in this idea asit stands in the origional thread..if you have an answer for them I'd love to hear them, but as it stands it dosn't really compete.
To whit:
Sociological issues
UI display
Market hubs
Mid-system safes
Hauler travel in high sec
Coverts and warp-to's
Survivability for frigate tacklers
etc.
Plus, Nifel, if they can't insta to the station they'll just log.
Sociological issues <-- no clue what you mean by that
UI display
Why this is a problem I don't really understand. Yes I agree it'd be vital to have it on the UI. I'm very sure CCP would also agree to that should they choose to implement this. So it'd be in the ui display. A very simple solution would simply be to have a per cent bar indicating available warp stability left. Have it be red for drain on the warp stability, green for gain. A big sign indicating plus or minus on the side and a big button that you can push to go through a gate faster.
Hauler travel in high sec
Something I probably should've written in the OP. Apart from WCS (which you surprisingly diss in j0's thread) a new module could be introduced that'd speed up the jump through process.
Mid-system safes
Your biggest complaint about this was about safety and security. Personally I think you're on a collision course here with the vision of EVE. There shouldn't be anywhere safe. That's the whole point of the system. In Oveur's blog he said the biggest problem he had with instas was the near invulnerability you get with them. This system is designed to take that away and also add some to travel time. That's also a key point, unless you fit for it (modules for more warp stability and modules for going through a gate faster) it'll take time to travel. Choices... just like everywhere else in EVE. No "I-Win" button.
Market hubs
This depends on a lot of factors. Travel time is one, availability already there is another and level 4 agent missions was the biggest factor until recently imo. To solely tie it to the travel time factor like you've done is not really representative of reality.
What I think will happen is that stuff that's easy to transport and can be made fast to transport will end up in the hubs. Stuff that's very expensive and sell well in the hubs will end up there as well. Anything not meeting those criteria will either be sold where they are or the owner will wait until it is profitable and worth their time to move it. Just like today.
Coverts and warp-to's
Nothing's ever stopped you from warping to a cov ops at 15 has it? Besides... I never wrote you always land at 0 m. In fact... I wrote specifically that you land at 15 from stations. This system is for gates only. POSes you can bookmark and land inside the bubble by going to the BM. You can't place bms around gates, stations and outposts with this system. For gates you'll land at 2000 m (revised) and have the option of speedjump through or let the gate takes it time once you've pressed jump. For stations and outposts it's 15km as always.
Survivability for frigate tacklers
No idea what you're talking about. Incidently I'd like interceptors get drain bonuses to the warp scramblers/disruptors with this system.
And if they can't insta to the station maybe next time they'll have a friend help them setup an insta to the station. I have no problem people instaing to a station if it involves some work.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago."
RKK Ranking: (MIN13) Jata |
Mihail d'Amour
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Posted - 2006.03.10 12:27:00 -
[11]
OK, something has me confused..
warp scramblers of -2 are easily available, and -3's aren't hard to get either.. wcs of +2 are near impossible to find....
given all the advantages of lag coming into a system, or coming up on a fleet of more than 5 ships, that scramblers are considerably better than WCS, do we really need yet another easy button for ganking?
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Nifel
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Posted - 2006.03.10 13:17:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Mihail d'Amour
OK, something has me confused..
warp scramblers of -2 are easily available, and -3's aren't hard to get either.. wcs of +2 are near impossible to find....
given all the advantages of lag coming into a system, or coming up on a fleet of more than 5 ships, that scramblers are considerably better than WCS, do we really need yet another easy button for ganking?
-3's are very hard to get since they're officer mods and require 2000+ pg. Ie, they're bs mods only. There is as of yet no struck balance on this system for every ship and how it would fare against scramblers.
The general idea is that it's supposed to be better than the current situation where ganks are forced simply because you just can't stop someone with 8 wcs. Instead you gank him and don't have to worry about scrambling him.
However, to answer your concern. To scramble a BS in just one go with full warp stability I think it should require 3 7.5km scramblers with the full bonus of an interceptor with bonuses to scrambling drain. Once you add in WCS it's a balancing game there as well. If you fit for travelling safe with this system you should be relatively safe. But you will not under any circumstances be completely safe.
Ganking is a problem that's partly tied to travelling and instas and won't go away with any travelling system. This system might lessen the amount of ganks though (minus empire gate piracy since the sentries force a gank in many situations).
I'm not entirely sure if this is what you're looking for in the answer though since I had some problems understanding what you were really asking. If it's not please clarify and I'll try to answer ^^;.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago."
RKK Ranking: (MIN13) Jata |
Grimrebuke
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Posted - 2006.03.11 00:18:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Nifel
Originally by: Mihail d'Amour
OK, something has me confused..
warp scramblers of -2 are easily available, and -3's aren't hard to get either.. wcs of +2 are near impossible to find....
given all the advantages of lag coming into a system, or coming up on a fleet of more than 5 ships, that scramblers are considerably better than WCS, do we really need yet another easy button for ganking?
-3's are very hard to get since they're officer mods and require 2000+ pg. Ie, they're bs mods only. There is as of yet no struck balance on this system for every ship and how it would fare against scramblers.
The general idea is that it's supposed to be better than the current situation where ganks are forced simply because you just can't stop someone with 8 wcs. Instead you gank him and don't have to worry about scrambling him.
However, to answer your concern. To scramble a BS in just one go with full warp stability I think it should require 3 7.5km scramblers with the full bonus of an interceptor with bonuses to scrambling drain. Once you add in WCS it's a balancing game there as well. If you fit for travelling safe with this system you should be relatively safe. But you will not under any circumstances be completely safe.
Ganking is a problem that's partly tied to travelling and instas and won't go away with any travelling system. This system might lessen the amount of ganks though (minus empire gate piracy since the sentries force a gank in many situations).
I'm not entirely sure if this is what you're looking for in the answer though since I had some problems understanding what you were really asking. If it's not please clarify and I'll try to answer ^^;.
You went in a complete circle. You said we need this because it is almost impossible trap a BS with 8 WCS (ignoring the obvious fact that someone willing to dedicate half of their ship mods and all of their armor mod/repair potential is probably not outfitted to fight anyways). Then you said that a ship configured for travelling will be mostly safe (which kind of rhymes with almost impossible.
You've also said that insta's create ganks, which is kind of silly given ganking is an element of almost every MMORPG out there where PvP is allowed. I can rattle off a dozen games without instas where people gank regularly. You have your cause and affect backwards, a gank is impossible for certain classes to survive, so they figured out how to not be forced to run a gauntlet every time they go from A to B.
the only real balancing I see being done here is it makes scramblers actually take some time to do their job, so it might make the instant 'I gotcha' go away and actually give people a chance to not engage if done correctly.
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Nifel
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Posted - 2006.03.11 01:15:00 -
[14]
You're confusing ganking with numbers with gank setups. The gank setup in EVE was born from a) fleet battle and b) WCS. It's the best way of killing someone with lost of WCS and setup for pvp.
And indeed yes. Ganking with numbers are present in any mmog that allows combat and there's no artifical limit on the numbers involved.
I will however protest to saying that mostly safe rhymes with almost impossible. Landing 2000m from the gate means you can be bumped out of the way and webbed. Speedjumping through will drain your warp stability and will leave you more vurnerably on the next side.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago."
RKK Ranking: (MIN13) Jata |
Ryysa
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Posted - 2006.03.14 12:10:00 -
[15]
one note...
This will make travelling in eve slower than it currently is.
Because most people have instas for the area they're operating in.
All about target jamming |
Selvin
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Posted - 2006.03.14 13:30:00 -
[16]
well the point is that more ppls dont wana instant changes ...
they dont speak bout coz they dont care ... of course until CCP'll remove it...
who wana remove instants:
- only some PvPers who wana easy kill (the ones who dont know how to use warp bubbles and inties, old players who are borred to hell and have fun with spamming eve-o board with "remove instants" threads)
who dont wana:
- rest of players ;P
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TriExporter
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Keven
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Posted - 2006.03.14 13:37:00 -
[17]
warp scramble thingi: thumbs up!
Taking away instas: bad.
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Nifel
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Posted - 2006.03.14 13:46:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Selvin
well the point is that more ppls dont wana instant changes ...
they dont speak bout coz they dont care ... of course until CCP'll remove it...
who wana remove instants:
- only some PvPers who wana easy kill (the ones who dont know how to use warp bubbles and inties, old players who are borred to hell and have fun with spamming eve-o board with "remove instants" threads)
who dont wana:
- rest of players ;P
Uh yeah... my alliance doesn't know how to use that. Ever thought about empire too?
And for your information, the devs have stated they want to remove instas. This is a proposed solution that tries to take into consideration all aspects of the problem with removing them.
In fact... read this Oveur blog on instas before crying about the mean pvpers wanting easy meat.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago."
RKK Ranking: (MIN13) Jata |
Selvin
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Posted - 2006.03.14 14:25:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Selvin on 14/03/2006 14:26:22
do u remeber that instants were removed at sisi in one of the patches ... and ... well it was few months ago and they are still on tq
instants == lag it isnt all true
... well lag .... is not becoz instants but bms at all ... (fx i dont have many instants i got more sniper-spots and safe-spots)
so to remove lag they should remove all bms
WCS - the point is that all this slots with em u could fit something else ... thats the disadv. of WCS (actauly i dont use em but i wana "cry" bout em too, just for fun ;) ) u wana catch WCS user - use more Warp scrablers/disruptors
"warp stability & stuff" well its not so bad idea ... but look on it from server side ... instead comparing few integers u have to watch current capacity of "warp stability" for every each ship and thats will be lag fest :)
eh ... the point i dont care if CCP will change this things, i like new things ... but there should be balance between u and mates who dont wana changes :)
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TriExporter
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Nifel
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Posted - 2006.03.14 15:14:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Selvin
Edited by: Selvin on 14/03/2006 14:26:22
do u remeber that instants were removed at sisi in one of the patches ... and ... well it was few months ago and they are still on tq
instants == lag it isnt all true
... well lag .... is not becoz instants but bms at all ... (fx i dont have many instants i got more sniper-spots and safe-spots)
so to remove lag they should remove all bms
WCS - the point is that all this slots with em u could fit something else ... thats the disadv. of WCS (actauly i dont use em but i wana "cry" bout em too, just for fun ;) ) u wana catch WCS user - use more Warp scrablers/disruptors
"warp stability & stuff" well its not so bad idea ... but look on it from server side ... instead comparing few integers u have to watch current capacity of "warp stability" for every each ship and thats will be lag fest :)
eh ... the point i dont care if CCP will change this things, i like new things ... but there should be balance between u and mates who dont wana changes :)
The instas were removed on sisi because they tried a solution to instas which they ultimately scrapped. What that has to do with this I don't understand.
Instas create a lot of lag and has been stated by devs on various parts of the forum.
As for WCS and more disruptors/scramblers that's a very old argument. And yes of course we bring more disruptors/scramblers. It gets very old and tidious though because then everyone starts talking about ganking. To which the standard reply is: No **** Sherlock? We need this many people to kill you because you stab up so much. This system would negate that as once you got the warp stability to 50% or less the target can't warp period. Dynamic systems > static systems.
And I don't understand your last point. I want this change :\.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago."
RKK Ranking: (MIN13) Jata |
Righteous Bias
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Posted - 2006.03.14 16:39:00 -
[21]
I agree with Selvin. 
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Mihail d'Amour
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Posted - 2006.03.14 18:00:00 -
[22]
No one ever answers this, but I'll try again, why not just move bookmarks to the client?
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Nifel
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Posted - 2006.03.14 19:35:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Mihail d'Amour
No one ever answers this, but I'll try again, why not just move bookmarks to the client?
Because... someone will program a small utility that instantly creates bookmarks to wherever you want. With the proper programming and interfacing with EVE you could even program a tool that'd scan for you and then jump you directly to what you scanned for.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago."
RKK Ranking: (MIN13) Jata |
Mihail d'Amour
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Posted - 2006.03.14 19:40:00 -
[24]
encrypt them. makes sharing a little tougher, but cuts down on hacking them in this manner.
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Nifel
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Posted - 2006.03.14 22:03:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Mihail d'Amour
encrypt them. makes sharing a little tougher, but cuts down on hacking them in this manner.
It doesn't matter. It'll just be a matter of time before it's broken. Plus it doesn't address any of the problems taken up in Oveur's blog.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago."
RKK Ranking: (MIN13) Jata |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.14 22:07:00 -
[26]
A matter of time? Sure, years. And CCP could change the system each and every patch. Strong encryption - not Blizzard "security though obscurity" is NOT that easy to break, even when you know *precisely* how it works.
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
Nifel
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Posted - 2006.03.14 22:35:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
A matter of time? Sure, years. And CCP could change the system each and every patch. Strong encryption - not Blizzard "security though obscurity" is NOT that easy to break, even when you know *precisely* how it works.
Well... I suppose. Still doesn't address the issues Oveur raises in his blog.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago."
RKK Ranking: (MIN13) Jata |
Mihail d'Amour
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Posted - 2006.03.14 23:52:00 -
[28]
that's because the Oveur arguments fall apart from the get-go. Oveur says instas are bad because they make you near invulnerable and ruin the game. He says this as if they are a new technology about to be introduced and we should be terrified of them. Not as if they are present in the game. Do they make people invulnerable? open your map and look at podkills/ships destroyed.
Oveur argues from fallacies, so naturally the argument looks a little practical. No one wants the game ruined, so we have to follow him. This ignores that people get killed now even with instas. Oveur also points out that your near invulnerability is mitigated by half a dozen other factors. The only argument with any solid validity is the server lag issues, which have a much simpler proposal than some complicated half-billion line of code solution that would require ages to balance. Instas are mostly balanced now, you can use but so can your enemy, you are still impeded by the time required to warp out, etc.
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Nifel
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Posted - 2006.03.15 00:59:00 -
[29]
Right... you wanna argue about how Oveur is wrong? Please start instead of painting up a phantom image and then attack that.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago."
RKK Ranking: (MIN13) Jata |
Mihail d'Amour
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Posted - 2006.03.15 02:23:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Nifel
Right... you wanna argue about how Oveur is wrong? Please start instead of painting up a phantom image and then attack that.
From Oveur, with my comments inline...
To start with, lets look at what instas do for you as a player:
- You become [close to] invulnerable
+++Here is my first point of contention, as I stated.. people die all the time, many with bookmark folders. If people were near invulnerable, why are they getting killed or their ship destroyed? Are you telling me every death arises from not having bookmarks? In fact, he does... I'll show that later.
- Your travel time decreases significantly
Both are very good for you as a player, but anything close to invulnerability will in the end ruin a game. Let's look at the drawbacks of instas:
- Other people using instas become [close to] invulnerable
+++See above
- Other people using instas travel as fast as you
+++so it's balanced.. how is this a drawback or a benefit?
- Other people that don't have instas are dead meat
+++every player without instas dies all the time? there's data to support this assertion?
- If you do use instas and don't have instas to a certain location, you probably won't travel there because you know you will get killed
+++it weighs into the risk/reward equation, of course. but no one will ever go where they have no bookmarks? how did we get all these bookmarks in the first place, gifts from the universe?
- Mobile warp disruptors can in many cases stop YOU and everyone else using instas, let alone the one that do not (and will probably stop you faster and easier after the next patch)
+++so in addition to ill-placed bookmarks, we also have warp disruptors.. interdiction bubbles as well... beating into that whole invulnerability argument
- New players who loose their first ship because they didn't have instas usually quit before they even learn what an insta is
+++new players quit because a game is no fun where a bully always gets the upper hand and can push you around with no recourse AND it costs you game time to recover what they took
- 100's of instas on the majority of characters are causing unnecessary server load in many scenarios (logon, switching systems, on use etc.)
+++this was the one valid argument and therefore the one I proposed a fix for.
Notice, I say [close to] in regards of invulnerability. That's simply because there are cases where they don't make you invulnerable, such as a bad bookmark which doesn't always bring you into jump/dock range, sniper team or simply a mobile warp disruptor.
+++As I said, we're expected to believe the only thing that makes a ship with insta's vulnerable to attack is a bad bookmark. Clever pirates have evolved and get players coming into a system instead of leaving it, where slow ships are vulnerable. He does mention a strategy and a game component that also make bookmarks less useful. the fact is they make you safer, but not safe by any stretch of the imagination.
In general, you are traveling nearly invulnerable, just think of the cases where you have been travelling with instas. How many gates have you jumped and lived with an insta compared to how many gates you have jumped and died without an instabookmark?.
+++There are a few problems with this kind of comparative math, like we're comparing failures under one system with successes under another, and the outcomes of events with a less-experienced pilot who would have no bookmarks over a more experienced pilot that does have them. Skill does play a role here, and it plays a role with setting up good bookmarks. It is what differentiates a hauler from a good hauler, a sniper from a good sniper, etc. "Should you be [close to] invulnerable just because you have those 20 bookmarks copied into your bookmarks folder?" presumes we bought into the declared 'fact' that we're close to invulnerable. Which wasn't ever backed up, just stated. The rest relies on that 'fact' in a circular reasoning approach.
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Mihail d'Amour
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Posted - 2006.03.15 02:28:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Nifel
Right... you wanna argue about how Oveur is wrong? Please start instead of painting up a phantom image and then attack that.
I actually included why Oveur was wrong in his base premise in my post, now that I read it again. So, while 'phantom image' is a cute way to try to seem in two sentances like I'm attacking Oveur instead of his premise, it also shows that you either didn't read my post or want to use a quip to detract from the explanation offered. While Ad Hominem Abusive can be entertaining, let's get back on topic, shall we?
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Nifel
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Posted - 2006.03.15 08:39:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Nifel on 15/03/2006 08:41:48
You said Oveur was wrong based on that there are kills on the map. That's a phantom image since you have no way of proving that all those kills were taking place from a) people with instas and b) from people that wanted to escape.
And the topic at hand is the proposed solution in this thread. Not what Oveur wrote in his blog. That's included to show people where I come from.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago."
RKK Ranking: (MIN13) Jata |
Mihail d'Amour
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Posted - 2006.03.15 11:50:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Nifel
Edited by: Nifel on 15/03/2006 08:41:48
You said Oveur was wrong based on that there are kills on the map. That's a phantom image since you have no way of proving that all those kills were taking place from a) people with instas and b) from people that wanted to escape.
And the topic at hand is the proposed solution in this thread. Not what Oveur wrote in his blog. That's included to show people where I come from.
I said that Oveur was wrong about instas making everyone practically invulnerable. An aweful lot of people die for a game with a function that makes you practically invulnerable. A lot of those people are killed in systems that are .3 and .4. We could try to round up real statistics on how many of those people were not engaging in combat themselves and had bookmarks for the area they were in. Perhaps we should start a poll and anyone who reads forums and answers polls could list whether or not they were ever killed while using bookmarks in a situation where they were not trying to fight but were trying to escape. We could even put a seperate answer for haulers to get an idea of how badly this is hurting piracy.
There's evidence to suggest people aren't invulnerable in this game (ships are destroyed, people are podded). There are gate campers that destroy ships with pilots that have good bookmarks by attacking on the entry gate or by setting up interdiction spheres and warp bubbles. Piracy is alive and well. You said that I didn't address Oveur's other concerns. I've just done so for the 3rd time. What I did do was offer an easy technical solution to the server lag issue from bookmark objects in the database. While this, too, was as much a 'phantom image' as the premise that instas make you invulnerable and are going to ruin the game (which is clearly apparent from the number of people who are quitting every day over them), there's some techinical merit to this argument without proof that warranted at least an attempt at solving.
Instead of shifting the burden of proof by saying I haven't done what I've done (explained my points), why don't we stop screwing around and find out if bookmarks actually make people invulnerable. Let's toss up a poll to see if anyone is ever shot down when they are trying to avoid a conflict and have bookmarks, since the whole premise you are arguing from is that the game is broken because of them and that people that have instas are (mostly) invulnerable.
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Nifel
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Posted - 2006.03.15 12:32:00 -
[34]
Sigh... I missed the last entry you did in the first page. My bad.
Originally by: "Mihail d'Amour"
lots of drivel
Thanks for your input. NO.
One thing caught my eye though.
Originally by: "Mihail d'Amour"
Clever pirates have evolved and get players coming into a system instead of leaving it, where slow ships are vulnerable.
How do you justify that only attacking on one side of the gate should be possible when trying to kill someone you're chasing?
Also... why on earth are you arguing for keeping instas and have them on the client? Might as well just let people warp to the gates at 0 meters instead.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago."
RKK Ranking: (MIN13) Jata |
Mihail d'Amour
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Posted - 2006.03.15 12:51:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Nifel
Sigh... I missed the last entry you did in the first page. My bad.
Originally by: "Mihail d'Amour"
lots of drivel
Forgive me, I thought you wanted to actually talk about facts, logic, reason, but when presented with those this is how you respond. I over-estimated you from the amount of thought you appeared to put in your first post. An error I shant repeat.
Quote:
Thanks for your input. NO.
One thing caught my eye though.
Originally by: "Mihail d'Amour"
Clever pirates have evolved and get players coming into a system instead of leaving it, where slow ships are vulnerable.
How do you justify that only attacking on one side of the gate should be possible when trying to kill someone you're chasing?
Also... why on earth are you arguing for keeping instas and have them on the client? Might as well just let people warp to the gates at 0 meters instead.
What, besides bookmarks, differentiates any degree of skill with pilots moving cargo? You want all the tricks of the trade to be easy buttons for hunting and remove any countermeasures. I would ask you why not just give anyone wanting to be a pirate a 2 second scanner that lets them warp onto any ship in the system and a 100k damage missle and be done with it? I'm sorry you need the BFG to win. Eve makes you work a little harder than that.
Bookmarks are useful, they set up rally points, safe spots, and, yes, help you get to jumpgates faster. Why should it be possible to kill anyone anywhere you want in a game where losing a ship or pod has real time-consuming consequences? I don't think you should be able to warp to 0 meteres because it removes the skill/experience factor from bookmarking and would lead to the uber-ganking-smartbomb strategy being used all the time. Good jammers require you to be closer than 10k, as do smartbombs, as do ecm pulses. Do you think their being less than 15k was arbitrary?
You've attacked me, but not my arguments. You've made yet another logical fallacy, suggesting that there are two options, get rid of instas or let everyone warp to 0 meteres at every gate, when in fact there are many more. You have yet to issue a compelling reason for removing them except that they have to because you want them to, but only around the gates because you want the others. Your argument is so far baseless, and all you've done is make logical fallacies and snide remarks.... I award you no points... and may the Gods have mercy on your soul....
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Nifel
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Posted - 2006.03.15 13:51:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Mihail d'Amour
Originally by: Nifel
Sigh... I missed the last entry you did in the first page. My bad.
Originally by: "Mihail d'Amour"
lots of drivel
Forgive me, I thought you wanted to actually talk about facts, logic, reason, but when presented with those this is how you respond. I over-estimated you from the amount of thought you appeared to put in your first post. An error I shant repeat.
I asked for input on my proposed solution.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago."
RKK Ranking: (MIN13) Jata |
Mihail d'Amour
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Posted - 2006.03.15 16:12:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Mihail d''Amour on 15/03/2006 16:16:29
Drop the changes to bookmarks and jumpgates and you have an interesting idea on making warp jamming/hardening more robust. The instant pinning of a ship with one button goes away, as it takes time to reduce its warp strength, stabs could work like cap boosters. If you did the logical thing with ships, giving the ones more designed not to fight greater warp strength and the ones designed more for battle less warp strength, I think you are on to a good new system. It would be complicated and require a lot of balance testing, but it is better than the "I win" of 7 WCS on a BS or 2 -3 scramblers against a transport.
Edit: Repost as a scrambling/WCS rework without the bookmark/jumpgate aspects and it becomes something worth evolving and trying.
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Prestis
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Posted - 2006.03.15 19:24:00 -
[38]
"that's because the Oveur arguments fall apart from the get-go. Oveur says instas are bad because they make you near invulnerable and ruin the game. He says this as if they are a new technology about to be introduced and we should be terrified of them. Not as if they are present in the game. Do they make people invulnerable? open your map and look at podkills/ships destroyed."
No, he's pretty close to the truth. The vast bulk of those giant red pod-kill clusters on the map are insta-less newbs loosing their T1 frigates and cruisers to notorious gatecamps.
It's pretty easy to live in 0.0 and, lag aside, not loose a ship for months on end with instas and a few other tricks. Most of the deaths there are (no-implant) people jumping willingly into combat with disposable ships.
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Mihail d'Amour
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Posted - 2006.03.15 20:31:00 -
[39]
I'm going to give this a real brief reply because, if Nifel wants to hold the floor for discussion on WCS/warp scrambling rework I think in that respect this is a good idea.
There's an aweful lot of gatecamps out in 0.0 space getting kills on ships that aren't T1 frigates or flown by new players without instas. I've seen this firsthand. As was posted out in another thread, good pirates have adapted, just like they keep saying haulers/miners should do. They have different strategies that are allowing them to get shipkills and podkills on players with instas. The game isn't broken, piracy isn't way down, and gatecamps in 0.0 are frequent and claim non-combatants.
It is POSSIBLE to survive with a combination of good bookmarks and other tricks, but these are all skills and tools of more experienced pilots and what seperates them from the less-experienced victims. A good pilot with some tricks up his sleeve should have a good chance of survival. Take away bookmarks and for some ships it becomes outright impossible to survive.
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