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Tsubutai
The Tuskers
22
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Posted - 2011.11.06 22:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
Since there doesn't seem to be a thread on this, I'll start one. IMO, the changes currently on SiSi are massively over the top; the new destroyers are so good as to render almost all frigates pointless. This is largely because of the removal of the ROF penalty As it stands on TQ, a thrasher is a credible threat to almost any frigate, t1 or t2; the problem is that the others fall some way short. However, this isn't really for want of (potential) DPS; it's much more to do with a lack of fitting room and, in the case of the catalyst and coercer, slot layout. As it stands, the changes don't address the core issue with the coercer (ships with one mid: still stupid and pointless after all these years) and go way overboard with the other three. The aim should have been to leave the thrasher more or less unchanged and bring the other three up to its level rather than boosting them all some way above it. My fear is that if the SiSi changes go live on TQ, they're going to kill off a lot of the variety in frigate pvp without really having any beneficial effects on diversity in larger fleets.
TL;DR: keep the increased fitting room and sig radius reduction, restore the ROF penalty, give the coercer a second mid. |
Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.
38
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Posted - 2011.11.06 23:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
They're destroyers. Their sole purpose for existing is to destroy frigates. So I don't quite get why you're complaining about their newfound ability to actually function in their intended role.
A lone frigate pilot would have to be incredibly stupid to engage a destroyer. That's the way it ought to be.
As for slot layouts, I don't see it as a problem. Destroyers are support ships, not solopwnmachines (besides the Thrasher) and I imagine we'll be seeing them in fleets alongside ships less able to defend themselves from frigates (such as the new Tier 3 BCs). It doesn't matter that some of them don't have the midslots for tackle - all they need to be able to do is rip apart any frigates that get close to the fleet, and deter any others. Not having the midslots for tackle doesn't really impede this ability. |
Dalloway Jones
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
70
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Posted - 2011.11.06 23:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yeah it seems the OP is entirely missing the point of Destroyers. |
Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
254
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Posted - 2011.11.06 23:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
couldn't agree more. if you are a lone frig and see a destroyer GTFO. Thats a good thing, since frigs are currently a class without a real counter.
destroyers are weak against everything else You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
NOGC BLAST
Lions Of Judah Intrepid Crossing
0
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Posted - 2011.11.06 23:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
I have to agree with Daedalus Arcova, They have needed some sort of work for a long while, the Thrasher was the only destroyer that could do it's job to any extent before these changes, and even at that it was still only useful in skilled hands.
With this they may see wider use in combat allowing a cheap but useful ship for the newer players, while still allowing skilled frigate pilots to still engaged them in well formed groups.
Besides, the winter update is still a ways away and they may still change things to balance there effectiveness. The fact is that something needs to be done, and for the past 2 years I have been voting for this matter to be looked at.
Anyway, they have there mind set on some sort of change, we can only wait and see, cause there the ones with the spread sheets LOL. |
Jiji Hamin
Federal Defence Union Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2011.11.06 23:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
the other three should be effective as anti-frig gang boats, but i also do agree as a longtime thrasher pilot that the thrasher is just horrifying. however, railgun cormorants/pulse coercers *maybe* will be fun to fly in gangs to **** enemy friggies, post-buffage. imho, dessies should have BIGGER sigs but keep the good fittings and removed RoF. that way, cruisers **** dessies who **** frigs. or:
anything else>destroyers>frigs
HOWEVER, frigs have many other uses other than pewing and as such will be used, making balance continue to be compelling. |
Shanlara
IDDQD Industry
6
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Posted - 2011.11.06 23:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
Can anyone tell the "buffs" to destroyers ? haven't really followed this part of the sisi, and I never really paid attention to destroyed beside the fact they are cool :P |
Alsyth
Night Warder
0
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Posted - 2011.11.07 00:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
With their decreased sig and massive dps/EHP buff, they can murder cruisers and some BCs now, that's a bit overpowered in my opinion. An AB thrasher can solo any med-sized gunship if they can orbit close and kill its drones. |
Moonaura
Swedish Aerospace Inc The Kadeshi
7
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Posted - 2011.11.07 00:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
At present, in fleets at least, destroyers are pretty pointless, they don't survive long enough in a fleet fight to actually counter things like interceptors. They are basically just used as a stepping stone for new pilots until they get into cruisers.
So fixing them and making them relevant is entirely welcome. I was more excited about this than the new battlecruisers.
However, regarding your initial point, I agree, that it could make life trickier proposition for frigates.
Personally I feel that Frigates are also far to vulnerable to be relevant in fleets of larger ships. They are either killed by drones or the Zealot pilot who ignores the primary target in his quest for killboard glory (You know who you are Zealot kill mail whores).
While Interceptors are still pretty handy, they too tend to die pretty easily when doing the role they are designed to do - close down range. I mean - an interceptor speeding after a sniping gang is easy prey because it's transversal velocity is nill.
I would like to see the survivability of frigates increased significantly, so they are relevant to the game and fun to fly in mixed fleets. It sort of gets boring to see everyone in an abaddon's time after time... or tempests etc... you get the idea. |
Moonaura
Swedish Aerospace Inc The Kadeshi
7
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Posted - 2011.11.07 00:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
Alsyth wrote:With their decreased sig and massive dps/EHP buff, they can murder cruisers and some BCs now, that's a bit overpowered in my opinion. An AB thrasher can solo any med-sized gunship if they can orbit close and kill its drones.
They are great. But with web on them they die very quickly, and I've found battleships still getting the odd shot on me that took me down to 50% health in one shot, two shots and I was in my pod. I feel if I took them out in a fleet, i'd be lucky to be bringing it back with me. With such a small buffer, they are hardly invincible. as with most things in eve - they are easily countered by the correct fitting. Oh... and drones. |
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Ivanna Nuke
Holders Of The Cowbell Mechanical Pirahnas
0
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Posted - 2011.11.07 02:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
Dalloway Jones wrote:Yeah it seems the OP is entirely missing the point of Destroyers.
This sums up this whole thread.
Now for space beer. |
Silas Shaw
Coffee Hub
1
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Posted - 2011.11.07 04:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote: Destroyers are support ships, not solopwnmachines (besides the Thrasher)
If one ship does not fit the ship's class, there is a problem. in this case, yeah, destroyers as a group need buffed. But that needs to happen in a way that doesnt leave everything in space named "thrasher."
Silas |
Jiji Hamin
Federal Defence Union Gallente Federation
9
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Posted - 2011.11.07 04:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
Silas Shaw wrote:Daedalus Arcova wrote: Destroyers are support ships, not solopwnmachines (besides the Thrasher) If one ship does not fit the ship's class, there is a problem. in this case, yeah, destroyers as a group need buffed. But that needs to happen in a way that doesnt leave everything in space named "thrasher." Silas
OH GOD I LOVE THE THRASHER SO MUCH. +1 for a winter expansion marketed as being a hybrid-buffing rebalance but actually just making hail and the thrasher both horrifyingly better. fap fap fap
tbh tho, despite this being my take on it... the tornado is just too far. the minmatar epicness train just went too far with that ship. like, this is just getting dumb at this point.
anyway, back on topic |
Kami Lincoln
THE KINGD0M Trojan Odyssey Consortium
0
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Posted - 2011.11.07 04:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
Alsyth wrote:With their decreased sig and massive dps/EHP buff, they can murder cruisers and some BCs now, that's a bit overpowered in my opinion. An AB thrasher can solo any med-sized gunship if they can orbit close and kill its drones.
Did you say murder cruisers and some BC's? Well sure, if its a 4 year old veteran taking out a 4 month old noob. |
TrollFace TrololMcFluf
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
30
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Posted - 2011.11.07 04:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
AWWW the tuskers really are the most narrow minded arrogant pathetic little whiners in eve cant adapt so they choose to cry about a long needed buff
As is the destroyers one job is to evaporate frigs if your too pig headed to adapt to this change and fly with a few more people/change your tactics you deserve to die out of eve like the dodo you lot are
ADAPT OR DIE
YOU CHOOSE DIE AND THEN CRY |
Zirse
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
125
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Posted - 2011.11.07 05:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
Apparently the SiSi catalyst can be fit for 650DPS at the moment. That is ridiculous and on par with a decently fit BC.
Keep the ROF penalty, or at least part of it and massively boost the tracking to keep these as an anti-frig boat instead of cheap disposable DPS platforms. |
TrollFace TrololMcFluf
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
30
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Posted - 2011.11.07 06:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
Zirse wrote:Apparently the SiSi catalyst can be fit for 650DPS at the moment. That is ridiculous and on par with a decently fit BC.
Keep the ROF penalty, or at least part of it and massively boost the tracking to keep these as an anti-frig boat instead of cheap disposable DPS platforms.
ok it dose 650dps how much tank dose it have
OH WAIT IT DOSNT HAVE A TANK
quit crying about it you whining babies and just SHOOT IT |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
105
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Posted - 2011.11.07 06:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
TrollFace TrololMcFluf wrote:Zirse wrote:Apparently the SiSi catalyst can be fit for 650DPS at the moment. That is ridiculous and on par with a decently fit BC.
Keep the ROF penalty, or at least part of it and massively boost the tracking to keep these as an anti-frig boat instead of cheap disposable DPS platforms. ok it dose 650dps how much tank dose it have OH WAIT IT DOSNT HAVE A TANK quit crying about it you whining babies and just SHOOT IT
Gotta agree with this.
The Catalyst is another in a long line of glass cannons put forward by the Gallente. You have to get really damn close to work that DPS out, and Dessies go down pretty darn quick.
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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
13
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Posted - 2011.11.07 10:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
Whatever they do it will be great for destroyers which are designed to kill T1 frigates and perhape be on average with Assault frigates...
Whatever buff they get I take it no questions asked!!! I will only ask for ONE thing: Remove a turret from the Thrasher...
Pinky |
Sniperdoc
Stargate Kommand
3
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Posted - 2011.11.07 14:28:00 -
[20] - Quote
Alsyth wrote:With their decreased sig and massive dps/EHP buff, they can murder cruisers and some BCs now, that's a bit overpowered in my opinion. An AB thrasher can solo any med-sized gunship if they can orbit close and kill its drones.
Yes. I found the same. You can actually use a destroyer to solo cruisers now as well. So, a BIT overpowered. |
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
83
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Posted - 2011.11.07 14:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
Sniperdoc wrote:Alsyth wrote:With their decreased sig and massive dps/EHP buff, they can murder cruisers and some BCs now, that's a bit overpowered in my opinion. An AB thrasher can solo any med-sized gunship if they can orbit close and kill its drones. Yes. I found the same. You can actually use a destroyer to solo cruisers now as well. So, a BIT overpowered. You can solo cruisers in some frigates. Let's nerf them also.
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Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
112
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Posted - 2011.11.07 14:57:00 -
[22] - Quote
Razin wrote:Sniperdoc wrote:Alsyth wrote:With their decreased sig and massive dps/EHP buff, they can murder cruisers and some BCs now, that's a bit overpowered in my opinion. An AB thrasher can solo any med-sized gunship if they can orbit close and kill its drones. Yes. I found the same. You can actually use a destroyer to solo cruisers now as well. So, a BIT overpowered. You can solo cruisers in some frigates. Let's nerf them also.
Don't forget you can use a cruiser to solo a battlecruiser. Oh, and you can murder a battleship with certain battlecruisers too! |
Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
14
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Posted - 2011.11.08 05:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
It would have been nice to have done something that closed the achievment gap between thrashers and all others.
Thrasher already was pretty balanced in the sub-cruiser catagory. Most of these changes exceed balance.
but whatever. There is no official feedback thread so either CCP doesnt care or we are getting trolled with the current changes.
I just have one question:
Which will we see first 1) "OMG NERF DESTROYERS!!!!111" whine threads 2) " OMG BUFF MY AF/SHINY BECAUSE THEY DIE TO DESTROYERS!!!!!111" whine threads 3)" I DEMAND ALL STATS ON MY DIC TO BE AS GOOD OR BETTER THAN T1!!!!111" whine threads |
Jiji Hamin
Federal Defence Union Gallente Federation
17
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Posted - 2011.11.08 07:03:00 -
[24] - Quote
tbf if they take away the RoF bonus they should make sig BIGGER to make there be a strong sense of order in the universe in which big ships **** dessies and dessies **** frigs. i'm not saying that because i think bigger ships should always win, i'm say that because it is the core concept behind destroyers. let frigates keep their monopoly on being ******* annoying to hit from bigger ships.
Quote:I just have one question:
Which will we see first 1) "OMG NERF DESTROYERS!!!!111" whine threads 2) " OMG BUFF MY AF/SHINY BECAUSE THEY DIE TO DESTROYERS!!!!!111" whine threads 3)" I DEMAND ALL STATS ON MY DIC TO BE AS GOOD OR BETTER THAN T1!!!!111" whine threads
ugh god why does everyone who plays eve just suck |
Jerick Ludhowe
Shadow Legion Industries Dark Phoenix Rising.
15
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Posted - 2011.11.08 11:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
The sig buff and hp buff was a mistake for sure. ROF buff is all dessies needed. |
Shadowsword
The Rough Riders Ares Protectiva
62
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Posted - 2011.11.08 12:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:The sig buff and hp buff was a mistake for sure. ROF buff is all dessies needed.
Of course not. In any decent fleet engagement, each side is going to get cleansed of destroyers within the first 2 minutes, EHP/sigres buff or not. Think of all the Snipalots, Artycanes, Drakes and whatever who are going to see any enemy destroyer as a two-salvoes killmail... |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
213
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Posted - 2011.11.08 12:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
The point of destroyers was always supposed to be providing larger ships a screen against smaller ships. In CCP's grand vision of a fleet, combined arms is the order of the day - you don't just have a megablob of one ship type, you have every type of ship, performing the role they were supposed to play. Destroyers protect cruisers and battleships against frigates so that those cruisers and battleships don't have to field anti-frigate countermeasures, allowing them to perform their intended role more effectively.
Destroyers having a high damage output but no capacity to limit enemy mobility makes them fit into this role perfectly. It is up to them to either destroy enemy frigates or force them to disengage, keeping larger ships safe from them. This is right and proper. Giving them a second mid-slot would make them overpowered - this would make frigates obselete, but as it stands, any frigate facing a destroyer one-on-one will have the ability to disengage as it wishes.
One small change I'd make is a slight tweak to destroyer sig radius to make them more vulnerable to cruiser-scale weaponry. They should be deadly against frigates, but very vulnerable to larger ships. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Animated Corporate Logos |
Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
19
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Posted - 2011.11.08 16:00:00 -
[28] - Quote
Jiji Hamin wrote: probs 2 because people are already screaming that while their AFs are capable of getting kills, 3 seems unlikely cause dic pilots tend not to be amongst the lowest common denomenator of eve pilots.)
2 was my guess too.
3 probably wont get dedicated thread anytime soon, but if the sig decrease is as effective as people think it is (i have doubts), then the survivability increases dramatically for destroyers. Given the flying coffin status of dic's, eventually people will start asking for decreases in sig too.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
87
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Posted - 2011.11.08 16:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
Jiji Hamin wrote:tbf if they take away the RoF bonus they should make sig BIGGER to make there be a strong sense of order in the universe in which big ships **** dessies and dessies **** frigs. i'm not saying that because i think bigger ships should always win, i'm say that because it is the core concept behind destroyers. let frigates keep their monopoly on being ******* annoying to hit from bigger ships. Do you have some SISI testing data to show the validity of your concern?
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Dro Nee
2
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Posted - 2011.11.08 22:20:00 -
[30] - Quote
Tsubutai wrote:Since there doesn't seem to be a thread on this, I'll start one. IMO, the changes currently on SiSi are massively over the top; the new destroyers are so good as to render almost all frigates pointless. This is largely because of the removal of the ROF penalty As it stands on TQ, a thrasher is a credible threat to almost any frigate, t1 or t2; the problem is that the others fall some way short. However, this isn't really for want of (potential) DPS; it's much more to do with a lack of fitting room and, in the case of the catalyst and coercer, slot layout. As it stands, the changes don't address the core issue with the coercer (ships with one mid: still stupid and pointless after all these years) and go way overboard with the other three. The aim should have been to leave the thrasher more or less unchanged and bring the other three up to its level rather than boosting them all some way above it. My fear is that if the SiSi changes go live on TQ, they're going to kill off a lot of the variety in frigate pvp without really having any beneficial effects on diversity in larger fleets.
TL;DR: keep the increased fitting room and sig radius reduction, restore the ROF penalty, give the coercer a second mid.
After playing around I have to agree that SISI destroyers are likely to kill off variety in frig PVP. Keeping the fitting and sig bonus is good. I would halv the RoF penalty instead of getting rid of it completely though. |
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