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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
7973
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 09:12:00 -
[31] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:This topic is not about " my 2b capital ship have to be more OP than some BS". ( i agree with this) This topic is about : - capital ships using bonused sub capital weapons ( sentry drones are no different than large guns , that have tracking of medium guns) They have large gun tracking, but the rest of your post was good. (Also before someone disputes that they're bonused, that bonus would be 20% per level to the amount that you can launch). Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
18610
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Posted - 2013.12.30 09:18:00 -
[32] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:This topic is not about " my 2b capital ship have to be more OP than some BS". ( i agree with this) This topic is about : - capital ships using bonused sub capital weapons ( sentry drones are no different than large guns , that have tracking of medium guns) They have large gun tracking, but the rest of your post was good. (Also before someone disputes that they're bonused, that bonus would be 20% per level to the amount that you can launch). Yeah, sentries aren't that bad (even if they're still quite a ways above what would seem natural for a L-scale weapon system). Heavy drones, on the other hand, are just nuts. They track better than small turrets, which is wa-a-ay more than they need even to compensate for their own movement. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
244
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Posted - 2013.12.30 09:20:00 -
[33] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: They have large gun tracking
Are you sure? Think about this : - target is 180k away im using one set of drones (LR ones) - target is 50k away im using different set of drones. (SR ones having much bigger tracking).
On guns i have: - LR ammo usually bonused for tracking: - SR ammo bonused for DPS and in some cases (T2) you get also nerf to your tracking and/or optimal range.
You have also more than one drone - placed in different spots and ranges. TIDI IS NIGHTMARE - CCP SHOW US THE TIMERS Reactivation timers on : MJD and more. Please like & post in this idea to keep it visible. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
18611
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 09:30:00 -
[34] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: They have large gun tracking
Are you sure? Garde II GÇö 0.036 rad/s (400m sig res) @-á24+12km optimal. Mega Pulse II GÇö 0.03375 rad/s (400m sig res) @-á24+8km optimal.
Warden II GÇö 0.012 rad/s (400m sig res) @-á60+30km optimal. Tachyon II GÇö 0.0139205 rad/s (400m sig res) @-á52.8+20km optimal.
So yes, close enough for something with the same ballpark range. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
7973
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 09:34:00 -
[35] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: They have large gun tracking
Are you sure? Quite sure. Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
244
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Posted - 2013.12.30 09:52:00 -
[36] - Quote
You didn't get my idea.
BS guns : - SR Ammo - MD Ammo - LR Ammo
When you load your High DPS ammo - you loose usually optimal/tracking ( EMP , Multi, etc) In order to overcome this you loose most of your tank utility slots.
Carrier - SR Neuts/Smartbombs/Lt Drones - MD Range Gardes - LR Wardens/Curators
You just refit/change drones. You maintain most of your tank/ utility slots ( this is a carrier) while omi are affecting your drones.
When i load EMP ammo to Arty guns my Range is reduced by 50% , and i got still the same tracking. When i deploy High DPS gardes - their range is not affected , and they still have tracking speed 0.036 rad/sec on 24k and not 0.009 rad/sec on 12k.
You cannot compare Blasters to Drones, as at the range of 10k you are going to use Smartbombs, or different type of drones.
Yes main tracking looks like large guns - but when you take into consideration : - number of drones - their cycle time - changing type based on range - 'fleet' of slowcats - locking speed of ship that have all drones assigned ..
Calculations will get you to the point that drones at some point can actually track like medium guns. Medium guns will not hit for full damage fast moving targets , but in case of drones simply not all of them will hit.
EDIT: "Still doesn't invalidate your point though." :) TIDI IS NIGHTMARE - CCP SHOW US THE TIMERS Reactivation timers on : MJD and more. Please like & post in this idea to keep it visible. |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
767
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 10:19:00 -
[37] - Quote
While I withhold any sort of opinion of mine on whether slowcats are top dog or simply solid all-rounders, I can tell you that for outsider ships that provide: - versatile DPS; - repping; - field support; - ability to haul everything they need around; - all of which is on really tanky platform, all at once; - cost about the price of better BSs or even cruisers after insurance.
sound kinda silly, in a "why fly anything else" sense. As I've said already, they may be in a position they are just because they require really situational counter that takes quite a bit of resources and time to get online, but on the other hand in any other game such jack-of-all-trades that outright excel at one of the tasks they can fulfil and being good-to-best at others would be beyond broken.
Also, *insert obligatory capital ships balance pass comment here*. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
244
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 10:24:00 -
[38] - Quote
I just want to put all things on their place: - Logistic capital Ships : Carriers - DPS capital ships : dreadnoughts - No bonused (L) Guns on (XL) capital ships. - Triage/Siege needed for full capital capabilities - Sub cap fleet required to support capital fleet. - Ewar for drones
TIDI IS NIGHTMARE - CCP SHOW US THE TIMERS Reactivation timers on : MJD and more. Please like & post in this idea to keep it visible. |
Chance Harper
Northen Star Corporation
38
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Posted - 2013.12.30 12:49:00 -
[39] - Quote
Alphea Abbra wrote: 6VDT was fought on CCPs super & military-grade hardware computer. .
Hahaha this made my day. You are giving the military too much credit m8. I know private companies who run better hardware than the military. |
Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar Nulli Secunda
598
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 15:36:00 -
[40] - Quote
Bring less numbers and use proper ships, cannot possibly go wrong. What happened to archonswarm? What happened to Omegafleet?
Other than bombers they are the only ship that can really fight outnumbered, but they sacrifice on grid mobility to do so and at a fairly high SP requirement. I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance. |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6003
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 16:39:00 -
[41] - Quote
I'm a blobber and a metagamer and find this hilarious.
Note that it does say to deal with subcaps bring a carrier. So it seems everything is A-OK. Subcaps optional if you have carriers. ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over. |
Yazzinra
Scorpion Ventures Rim Worlds Protectorate
22
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Posted - 2013.12.30 17:21:00 -
[42] - Quote
Someone beat me with a stick if I have this wrong (or right, it'll be fun either way)
Given the numbers CFC and Stainwagon can bring, wouldn't it be easier, and vastly cheaper to just bomb the **** out of slowcats with Void and target breaker bombs? it is a bit difficult to RR when you can't lock anything, and have no capacitor to run either RR or your hardeners.
I get the idea behind Omegafleet, it just seems like there's an easier way. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6003
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 18:28:00 -
[43] - Quote
Yazzinra wrote:Someone beat me with a stick if I have this wrong (or right, it'll be fun either way)
Given the numbers CFC and Stainwagon can bring, wouldn't it be easier, and vastly cheaper to just bomb the **** out of slowcats with Void and target breaker bombs? it is a bit difficult to RR when you can't lock anything, and have no capacitor to run either RR or your hardeners.
I get the idea behind Omegafleet, it just seems like there's an easier way. Considering you can bubble yourself defensively that doesn't work like you imagine.
Also emptying the cap of a capital ship with void bombs is ... haha, that's a good one... ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over. |
Tarsas Phage
Freight Club
239
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 20:03:00 -
[44] - Quote
This entire argument has its roots in "if we can't field it, they shouldn't be able to field it"
The CFC and RUSRUS) are old entities, full of people who should be able to get their warm bodies into capitals. In Mittani's retrospective on the Fountain War, he prescribed sentry skills and archons as an CFC-wide skillqueue goal. The vast coffers that the CFC likes to tout should be able to fund this, at least substantially so. As far as I know, the CFC and RUS don't have a single capital doctrine beyond Right Click -> Make Active, let alone FCs willing to run them.
So what happened? Did everyone in the CFC stop training their chars when they got ratting tengus and rail megas?
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4700
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 21:21:00 -
[45] - Quote
Tarsas Phage wrote:This entire argument has its roots in "if we can't field it, they shouldn't be able to field it"
The CFC and RUSRUS) are old entities, full of people who should be able to get their warm bodies into capitals. In Mittani's retrospective on the Fountain War, he prescribed sentry skills and archons as an CFC-wide skillqueue goal. The vast coffers that the CFC likes to tout should be able to fund this, at least substantially so. As far as I know, the CFC and RUS don't have a single capital doctrine beyond Right Click -> Make Active, let alone FCs willing to run them.
So what happened? Did everyone in the CFC stop training their chars when they got ratting tengus and rail megas?
But why should they put forth effort into adapting and risking assets when they can just come to forums with eyes full of tears and beg CCP to win the war for them?
The truth is no matter what changes at made, no matter the nerfs, no matter the meta. We will always find a way to have fun and more importantly; find a way to take our boot heel and smash it directly into CFCs face. . |
NickSuccorso
Arcana Imperii Ltd. Surely You're Joking
39
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Posted - 2013.12.30 21:54:00 -
[46] - Quote
Seriously? Nerf carriers?
Supercapitals have been turned into structure and capital killers
Titans have been turned into capital killers
CCP already fixed your problem! There you go. Ship up and go get em!
Honestly, I wish CCP would un-gimp supers. Unless you are in a major 0.0 alliance they have very few uses. I see more low-sec supers on POCO killmails than in fights. |
Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
506
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 22:54:00 -
[47] - Quote
Chance Harper wrote:Alphea Abbra wrote: 6VDT was fought on CCPs super & military-grade hardware computer. .
Hahaha this made my day. You are giving the military too much credit m8. I know private companies who run better hardware than the military. Whereas I know rocks with better qualifications than you, so it equals out. When your companies also sign documents not to release any details about their hardware (since the same hardware is also used in military and international banking) we'll allow you to act cool. You can watch the CCP Fanfest video explaining a little of it here.
When you get back, I expect a 6 000 character essay on how and why you're wrong, and how you're going to learn. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6008
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 22:58:00 -
[48] - Quote
NickSuccorso wrote:Seriously? Nerf carriers?
Supercapitals have been turned into structure and capital killers
Titans have been turned into capital killers
CCP already fixed your problem! There you go. Ship up and go get em!
Honestly, I wish CCP would un-gimp supers. Unless you are in a major 0.0 alliance they have very few uses. I see more low-sec supers on POCO killmails than in fights. join pl if you have a super ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over. |
Nariya Kentaya
Always Negative
952
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 00:01:00 -
[49] - Quote
not saying its all of them, or indicative of their overall view.
but anyone notice how many goons HAVE posted about how the slowcat blob "prevents fun"? considering how long was it the goons primary form of warfare was fun denial?
also, hurry up with omegaderp, win or lose, i want to see some killmails. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2090
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 00:12:00 -
[50] - Quote
Sorry you're not allowed to use capitals in your alliance, excuse us while we exploit that laughable weakness.
Carry on crying about how you want the guy with the most warm bodies to win. Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
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Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
506
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Posted - 2013.12.31 00:17:00 -
[51] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:not saying its all of them, or indicative of their overall view.
but anyone notice how many goons HAVE posted about how the slowcat blob "prevents fun"? considering how long was it the goons primary form of warfare was fun denial?
also, hurry up with omegaderp, win or lose, i want to see some killmails. The primary product of GSF is not Good Fights but hypocrisy. The same with moon-money (Although they try to redeem themselves by weird claims of "advocating the nerf of it") ... Or of course their long hatred of anything rental, and now it's the best in the world.
It's not just the degree newspeak and the organised opinion-making that is going on (Any organisation large enough will eventually embrace those), but GSF - and, to a lesser extend, the CFC as whole - is seemingly actively celebrating doublethink. Of course, I have no access to the GSF forums or SA or anything, so it could be that it's just the carefully crafted PR front we're seeing (And the most prolific GSF posters are all on board with that), but then again Mittens is the master of it in his CEO updates, so at least some of it must happen internally as well as externally. It intrigues me.
And enables me to feel self-righteous and superior, but let's not mention that. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
1269
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 00:17:00 -
[52] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:I found this , digging the dev blogs. Funny thing is that you have to modify so little for this text to be so adequate to current slowcat situation. Especially when you use 180km range slowcats as main damage dealers and motherships rest of 230 carriers as a logistic ships. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/2674Quote:Capital ship balancing
Slowcats Supercapitals are too hard to kill
We wanted to make them a little bit weaker, but not gut them completely. We're doing a simple 20% reduction in Shield, Armor and Hull hitpoints on both Supercarriers and titans.
Slowcats Supercapitalsare far too versatile
The reason that slowcats Supercapitals can deal with any size of ship is the versatility provided by its massive drone bay. Having access to almost unlimited combat drones of all sizes and being able to launch 20 2500 ,as a fleet, of them at a time means that they have an answer to almost any situation. In fact, we found that drones on capital ships in general to be detrimental to the way fleet fights should work. If you want to deal with sub-capitals, you should bring your own sub-capitals or a carrier. You cannot put them on same boat. Before a simple group of 20 Motherships were already at a critical level. Slowcats only started to reach this level with 10 times more ships. Something can and should be made to prevent complete dominance. But you need to give more time to the game to see if people find solutions (goons are still trying) and be careful to any balance just not be a nerfbat that removes a doctrine from the game nerfing MONTHS of training of THOUSANDS of players into an useless state. I for once think the carriers should have SEPARATE fighters and drone bays and they should have a bit over the drone bay of a dominix only (something like 800M). I disagree with the first part of your post. Carriers should not be one of the best sub capital killers in game. Capitals are supposed to kill capitals and have a very tough time killing subcaps.
Regardless of whether players trained for months to exploit the mechanic, given they're in capitals they should be fully aware that these flavour of the month bonuses are eventually nerfed.
I agree with the last part, the division of fighter / drone hangers is a great idea. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2092
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 00:22:00 -
[53] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: Capitals are supposed to kill capitals and have a very tough time killing subcaps like all other capitals.
Hi, can you tell me where you got your inside information on the design of Capital ships?
I mean its totally wrong since Dreads also can easily kill sub caps as well but you seem to know something about CCP's design ideas and I was wondering if you could share the notes you had on Capital ship design you took from when CCP was creating them.
For those keeping track, carriers have always been very adept at killing sub caps, back when they were rare, and you'd find one, it was a monumental effort just to stay alive around one if it was angry.
Carriers are also fairly commonly used in killing rats, which are if you hadn't noticed, also sub caps.
So, unless you have some secret design documents please stop trying to dictate what 'capitals are supposed to do', because as far as anybody can tell, they're doing exactly what they're supposed to do.
Turns out any ship type is lethal when you group up 300 of them, so nerf numbers, not ships.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6008
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 00:23:00 -
[54] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:not saying its all of them, or indicative of their overall view.
but anyone notice how many goons HAVE posted about how the slowcat blob "prevents fun"? considering how long was it the goons primary form of warfare was fun denial?
also, hurry up with omegaderp, win or lose, i want to see some killmails. no, read the thread on it, omegafleet is just a pipedream of a dying coalition ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
7996
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 01:04:00 -
[55] - Quote
Alphea Abbra wrote:Or of course their long hatred of anything rental, and now it's the best in the world. Not our fault CCP has made it the only decent way to make alliance level income now. You know this too or you wouldn't have your own renters. I can tell you the initial announcement was met with considerable opposition and uproar. Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
7996
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 01:22:00 -
[56] - Quote
And yes Grath I'm sure CCP intended carriers to be capital ships with the best logistics capabilities of any ship while also having more than ten times the tank of most tank-fit battleships but costing much less than ten times as much and also having subcapital weapons that can be synchronized to fire by a single person negating the compromises one would normally have to make in fitting. Oh, and I forgot to mention, a large fleet of these requires no support of any kind. Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2092
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Posted - 2013.12.31 01:44:00 -
[57] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: Oh, and I forgot to mention, a large fleet of these requires no support of any kind.
Sorry, you can hang this myth up, if they really required no support you wouldn't be able to keep them pinned for hours and hours on end.
We choose to run them without support because you mob up sub caps (I'm sure CCP envisioned 1000 battleships operating on a single side right? But its ok that you do that right??).
So please try and learn the difference between what a fleet requires and what it chooses to bring.
Our fleets require support if we don't want to be stuck in one place for hours at a time, we choose not to bring it and deal with it.
Your fleet requires capitals to kill ours, you choose not to bring them and are stuck dealing with the consequences.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
7996
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 01:55:00 -
[58] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: Oh, and I forgot to mention, a large fleet of these requires no support of any kind. Sorry, you can hang this myth up, if they really required no support you wouldn't be able to keep them pinned for hours and hours on end. We choose to run them without support because you mob up sub caps (I'm sure CCP envisioned 1000 battleships operating on a single side right? But its ok that you do that right??). So please try and learn the difference between what a fleet requires and what it chooses to bring. Our fleets require support if we don't want to be stuck in one place for hours at a time, we choose not to bring it and deal with it. Your fleet requires capitals to kill ours, you choose not to bring them and are stuck dealing with the consequences. You're equivocating. You say the slowcat fleet requires support unless you want to be bubbled for hours. Then you say we require capitals to kill your fleet. One is an inconvenience, the other is a necessity for strategic victory. Very different levels of requirement here. Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2092
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 02:02:00 -
[59] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: You're equivocating. You say the slowcat fleet requires support unless you want to be bubbled for hours. Then you say we require capitals to kill your fleet. One is an inconvenience, the other is a necessity for strategic victory. Very different levels of requirement here.
Lol, so holding my fleet down in one place for hours and going around and using that time to your advantage to do something besides cram the system full to the point of breaking would be a strategic victory if you had the common sense to do that, again, you're choosing not to use that time to your advantage like you're choosing not to bring the tools to fight the ships in front of you.
Its not equivocating just because you refuse to see it for what it is, its just you, dead set on only one possible path to victory (cram system full, mob enemy to death) and complaining that somethings not fitting in that grand strategy.
They're still both choices we're making, regardless of your opinion on the matter.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9944
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 02:31:00 -
[60] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Say maybe in the form of larger beefier more expensive ships?
"please feed us with supercap killmails we're starving" Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
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