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Vembuvend
State War Academy Caldari State
9
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Posted - 2013.12.24 12:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
Seems like hot topic lately: The problems with nodes and blobs.
My suggestion would be to add a new mechanic to ship interaction called interference. Every ship would generate X amount of interference and every ship could also handle X amount of interference before negative effects due to excess interference apply. This would not directly affect the maximum amount of players people can get on grid, but once different ship's interference peaks start to fill up, you probably don't want more there.
Negative effects could be things like smaller targeting range, scan resolution and sensor strength. |

TokiWartooth Joringer
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
28
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Posted - 2013.12.24 13:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
No it's called upgrading Eves code. To be able to handle the stress. Devs have said as much so in the past. No it's never going to happen. No eve isn't dead or dying, BUT it is on life support. I feel a disturbance in the force, ISD is nearby |

Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1236
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Posted - 2013.12.24 13:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
+1
Prepare to for thread to be flooded with blobbers telling us how terrible this is. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |

ElQuirko
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
2804
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Posted - 2013.12.24 13:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
TokiWartooth Joringer wrote:No it's called upgrading Eves code. To be able to handle the stress. Devs have said as much so in the past. No it's never going to happen. No eve isn't dead or dying, BUT it is on life support. You're stupid and I hate you Dodixie > Hek |

Pipa Porto
1441
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Posted - 2013.12.24 13:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
Vembuvend wrote:Negative effects could be things like smaller targeting range, scan resolution, sensor strength, agility and speed.
So, a giant buff to Blasters and ECM in Sov fights. Neat. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |

Billy Hix
Team JK
44
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Posted - 2013.12.24 13:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vembuvend wrote:My suggestion would be to add a new mechanic to ship interaction called interference.
I have heard a few people push this idea over the years. It always sounded to me like something worth investigating. Yes in a perfect world CCP would just fix the code to allow 10,000 people fights, but we all know that is never going to happen. Eve is stuck as a single core process with very little hope in sight for going multi-core. As the tech world really isn't increasing clock speed much and focused on adding more cores, buying new hardware won't help much either.
I assume different ships would produce different amounts of interference, could this break the Capital blobs?
At the very least it should be debated and looked into. maybe there are really good reasons not to do it, I would be interested to find out what they are.
The one thing we all know is that the current system isn't fun at all. There isn't much they can do that can make it worse than just flying in, assisting drones and sitting in 10% TiDi
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Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
796
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Posted - 2013.12.24 14:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
EVE it's an open world sandbox, if you enforce directly or indirectly numbers cap then people will havee to exclude others to maximize the efficiency.
Over the years CCP tried to implement anti-blob weapons and mechanics, but they always faild simply becuase the "need" to blob to achive an objective was not changed.
If you want to scale down the blobbing you have to scale down and split the goals so that to achive something is not mandatory to have large numbers.
In example blobbing in FW is less common in repsect of null sov becuase in FW objectives to achive are scaled down and splitted in smaller ones. So large numbers are not strictly needed and often nor efficient.
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
3684
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Posted - 2013.12.24 15:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Vembuvend wrote:Negative effects could be things like smaller targeting range, scan resolution, sensor strength, agility and speed. So, a giant buff to Blasters and ECM in Sov fights. Neat.
And here you expose the problem with the "omg, I have a brilliant idea no one has ever thought of before" crowd. The don't even look for the downsides , even though it take other people all of 5 seconds to look at the idea and find the obvious weakness.
This is also why studies show that just reading the features and ideas forum for 5 minutes kills 1 million brain cells (look it up, it's scientific fact!) lol.
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
7627
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Posted - 2013.12.24 15:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
Strange..... I was absolutely sure I clicked on GD.
Clearly this is F&I. I am going to have to relog. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |

Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1236
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Posted - 2013.12.24 15:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
There should always be diminishing returns. They had the right idea with ship modules, but it's too bad they didn't extend it to the rest of the game.
Pipa Porto wrote: So, a giant buff to Blasters and ECM in Sov fights. Neat.
Is this before or after the node crash? Or is it during the structure shoots that make people want to tear their eyes out? ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
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Miasmos
Aliastra Gallente Federation
44
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Posted - 2013.12.24 15:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Vembuvend wrote:Negative effects could be things like smaller targeting range, scan resolution, sensor strength, agility and speed. So, a giant buff to Blasters and ECM in Sov fights. Neat. And here you expose the problem with the "omg, I have a brilliant idea no one has ever thought of before" crowd. The don't even look for the downsides , even though it take other people all of 5 seconds to look at the idea and find the obvious weakness. This is also why studies show that just reading the features and ideas forum for 5 minutes kills 1 million brain cells (look it up, it's scientific fact!) lol.
No, that is a strawman. OP suggested a diminishing returns effect of some sort, and threw examples on only some of the affected attributes. Arguing blaster and ECM weakness is an easy opponent but not the intended one.
However, one could argue diminishing returns in general can shake things up balance wise. Balancing around blobs is simpler than to balance against blobs.
The main reason I'm against diminishing returns is the metagame and how it thrives on blogging being allowed. The metagame is the only thing that keeps EVE going and makes it unique. The metagame is the soul of the sandbox. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
650

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Posted - 2013.12.24 17:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
This thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion.
I also have removed a rule breaking post.
The rules: 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated. ISD Ezwal Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Secret Squirrell
Allied Press Intergalactic
15
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Posted - 2013.12.24 21:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
The problem with this idea is that no one has proposed a mechanism that could not just be gamed to the advantage of the blobbers.
If I have 50 guys in my fleet, and the enemy brings 250, should I be penalized with an anti blobbing penalty? That would seem pretty silly... ok so we just apply the penalty to people in the same fleet, solution, 5x50 men fleets on the same comms working as one against my one 50man fleet... Well then we will just have the penalty stack based on corp/alliance affiliation. Well then the blobber brings 10 different alliances to join its 5 fleets... Well lets do it based on proximity, but then why should I be penalized when my 50man fleet has an enemy 250man fleet warped to 0 on it...
The code would need to magically know which people were working together, and even humans looking at the battle don't always know who is working with who... |

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
4357
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 21:40:00 -
[14] - Quote
Let me list some of the "anti-blob" proposals that have been proposed over the years and the problems with them.
Idea: Damage has stacking penalties attached to it. The more people that focus fire on a single target, the more the damage from each person is limited. Problem: Fleets will start setting up "damage chains" akin to what they do with remote repairs... but with low-dps weapons (or even high-dps weapons, just stack the ships' resistances more to neutralize the damage profile) . With enough people you will be able to mitigate a lot of incoming damage... which make high EHP ships like capitals and supercapitals nigh invulnerable because they require a ridiculous amount of damage to take down in any reasonable amount of time.
Idea: Remote repairs has stacking penalties attached to it. This prevents people from creating "repair balls" that only alpha-strikes can punch through. Problem: This would merely push fleet tactics more towards "bring the most people" rather than "having a better plan."
Idea: Restrict the number of people in a system to something more manageable. Problem: One group can pile all their forces into one or two systems and virtually deny all access to any opposing forces.
Idea: When massive fleets enter the same grid the server will "split them up" and create various instances for different sections of the fleets to slug it out on. As the numbers dwindle, the different instances will be recombined on to the same grid. Problem: Besides the technical feasibility of this... fleets are rarely uniform and often rely on different hyperspecialized groups for support and effectiveness. You could have a situation where a group of logis will be stuck against battleships and/or cruisers pitted against supercarriers. Or worse... two fleets that are allied with one another get stuck in the same instance (because computers can't distinguish player intent) and can't be returned to the original grid (with all the hostiles) without killing their own forces.
Idea: (similar to yours OP) When enough ships enter the same grid then all ships will begin to take small amounts of damage (to hasten the battle). Problem: Still favors the group that brought the most people and/or less remote repairs... also favors bringing in more massive, tanky ships.
Idea: Bring back the old Titan Area of Effect doomsday weapon the clear out blobs! Problem: There are a lot more Titans than there used to be and multiple Titans can be brought on-grid to wipe out anything that isn't tanky enough (see: any and all sub-capitals). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |

Seranova Farreach
521
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 21:45:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:+1
Prepare to for thread to be flooded with blobbers telling us how terrible this is.
blobbers blob cause they are just nullbears with capships :P _______________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg
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Seranova Farreach
521
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 21:48:00 -
[16] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Let me list some of the "anti-blob" proposals that have been proposed over the years and the problems with them.
Idea: Damage has stacking penalties attached to it. The more people that focus fire on a single target, the more the damage from each person is limited. Problem: Fleets will start setting up "damage chains" akin to what they do with remote repairs... but with low-dps weapons (or even high-dps weapons, just stack the ships' resistances more to neutralize the damage profile) . With enough people you will be able to mitigate a lot of incoming damage... which make high EHP ships like capitals and supercapitals nigh invulnerable because they require a ridiculous amount of damage to take down in any reasonable amount of time.
Idea: Remote repairs has stacking penalties attached to it. This prevents people from creating "repair balls" that only alpha-strikes can punch through. Problem: This would merely push fleet tactics more towards "bring the most people" rather than "having a better plan."
Idea: Restrict the number of people in a system to something more manageable. Problem: One group can pile all their forces into one or two systems and virtually deny all access to any opposing forces.
Idea: When massive fleets enter the same grid the server will "split them up" and create various instances for different sections of the fleets to slug it out on. As the numbers dwindle, the different instances will be recombined on to the same grid. Problem: Besides the technical feasibility of this... fleets are rarely uniform and often rely on different hyperspecialized groups for support and effectiveness. You could have a situation where a group of logis will be stuck against battleships and/or cruisers pitted against supercarriers. Or worse... two fleets that are allied with one another get stuck in the same instance (because computers can't distinguish player intent) and can't be returned to the original grid (with all the hostiles) without killing their own forces.
Idea: (similar to yours OP) When enough ships enter the same grid then all ships will begin to take small amounts of damage (to hasten the battle). Problem: Still favors the group that brought the most people and/or less remote repairs... also favors bringing in more massive, tanky ships.
Idea: Bring back the old Titan Area of Effect doomsday weapon the clear out blobs! Problem: There are a lot more Titans than there used to be and multiple Titans can be brought on-grid to wipe out anything that isn't tanky enough (see: any and all sub-capitals).
interesting idea but what about super-capital grade smartbombs, titan only and titan gets some bonuses to its range (maybe up to 50km? might be used more then the DDD and could be used as a spearhead with energy and rep-support as id ploughs forward into the blob. _______________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg
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Seranova Farreach
521
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 21:50:00 -
[17] - Quote
Sura Sadiva wrote:EVE it's an open world sandbox, if you enforce directly or indirectly numbers cap then people will havee to exclude others to maximize the efficiency.
Over the years CCP tried to implement anti-blob weapons and mechanics, but they always faild simply becuase the "need" to blob to achive an objective was not changed.
If you want to scale down the blobbing you have to scale down and split the goals so that to achive something is not mandatory to have large numbers.
In example blobbing in FW is less common in repsect of null sov becuase in FW objectives to achive are scaled down and splitted in smaller ones. So large numbers are not strictly needed and often nor efficient.
people blob cause they lack the "pro skills" for solo and small gang pvp... dont most blobs consisted of like 1/10th real people just ISBoxing now a days anyway? _______________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
4357
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 21:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
Seranova Farreach wrote:interesting idea but what about super-capital grade smartbombs, titan only and titan gets some bonuses to its range (maybe up to 50km? might be used more then the DDD and could be used as a spearhead with energy and rep-support as id ploughs forward into the blob. This already more or less exists. It's called the "Pipebomb" / "Disco" tactic.
Basically you fit your ship with only a certain type of smartbomb (e.g. EM only, Thermal only, etc), fit for maximum resistances against that damage type, then either hotdrop on top of a hostile fleet or sit at the edge of a bubble they have to go through. Space Perverts pioneered this tactic and Rooks and Kings applied it to anti-battleship/capital warfare. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |

Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
799
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 23:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
But in general all these "solutions" are based on bad game design approaches.
Players always try to optmize their gameplay in the most efficient way: If the game design push/prompt players to form up large blobs to achive some goals, they will do, it's normal. "Punishing" them adding some kind of penality while doing something required by the game mechanics, will only result in them forced to live a boring/annoying game experience.
Also adding too many artificial barriers and limits hardly is goo in a sandbox type game.
If we want to split blobs we have to split the goals.
The point here is that blobs and large numbers are good for CCP marketing, can advertise EVE for this epic numbers. If this is good or bad for the "real" gameplay is another topic. |

Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied Kiki's Delivery Service.
39
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 00:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
Honestly, the only way I can see to implement something like this without giving a decided advantage to any particular established module or strategy would be to use something similar to the target breaker's mechanic. Essentially make it a chance to lose target lock with a fleet threshold of a certain number and the chance increases at an increasing rate as more ships enter field.
But this is assuming that blobs are a problem. I'm not in that camp. I think blobs are part of what draws in new players and lends the game credibility on the public stage. IE: The Battle of Asakai
So even after fixing the OP's original idea I'm against the idea. |
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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage Fidelas Constans
152
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 02:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
You know the ability to make new star gates is probably being done as an idea to allow groupa to circumvent all the choke points the map has. LP store weapon cost rebalance |

Vembuvend
State War Academy Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 02:40:00 -
[22] - Quote
It should hit everyone on grid equally, balanced only by the amount if interference different ship types can handle. The negative side-effects I proposed are just an example and of course it should have some serious discussion.
Basically what those side-effects should do is make every ship worse than it was(and I think adding locking time, reducing speed and agility does that fine)
With full interference, the locking times should be 3-5x of what they were before.
I don't have any high level math to back it off, I'm just a newbie. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
961
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 10:33:00 -
[23] - Quote
Vembuvend wrote:Seems like hot topic lately: The problems with nodes and blobs.
My suggestion would be to add a new mechanic to ship interaction called interference. Every ship would generate X amount of interference and every ship could also handle X amount of interference before negative effects due to excess interference apply. This would not directly affect the maximum amount of players people can get on grid, but once different ship's interference peaks start to fill up, you probably don't want more there.
Negative effects could be things like smaller targeting range, scan resolution, sensor strength, agility and speed.
CCP already stated in past they will nto try to implement anytihgn of this sort because simply make defendign too easy. You cram up 2k plauyers at the system and voil+í.
That is NOT the way to solve blob. To solve blob you need to make more STRATEGICALLY interestign to attack with several smaller gangs and to reduce power projection speed. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2053
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 12:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
Vembuvend wrote:It should hit everyone on grid equally, balanced only by the amount if interference different ship types can handle. The negative side-effects I proposed are just an example and of course it should have some serious discussion.
Basically what those side-effects should do is make every ship worse than it was(and I think adding locking time, reducing speed and agility does that fine)
With full interference, the locking times should be 3-5x of what they were before.
I don't have any high level math to back it off, I'm just a newbie.
But this is a buff to blobs.
The bigger blob in a fight would be hit with the same effects as the smaller one, but the bigger blob has the sheer numbers to push through them. |

violator2k5
Reikoku Pandemic Legion
12
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Posted - 2013.12.25 16:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Idea: Bring back the old Titan Area of Effect doomsday weapon the clear out blobs! Problem: There are a lot more Titans than there used to be and multiple Titans can be brought on-grid to wipe out anything that isn't tanky enough (see: any and all sub-capitals).
while I would love to see this come back as I had a lot of fun back in the day when titan aoe's were more hostile to sub-cap fleets then they are today by either charging the nub pilot down during the aoe or gtfo of the grid before i got dd'd. Today the targetable dd's are not really as much of a threat as the aoe version used to be, as there was one major issue with them back then which the CFC+friends clearly showed in their war against bob. They had the capacity back then to field enough titans to wipe a capital fleet and im pretty sure a lot of people don't want to see the aoe aspect of the dd to come back again. |

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
683
|
Posted - 2013.12.26 00:21:00 -
[26] - Quote
About the only 'anti-blob' mechanic that I know of that promotes skill is the LOS mechanic. Which if they tried to implement with the current engine would melt the servers.
If they introduce the tessellation tech, it becomes much easier to do as the graphics engine then automatically calculates it.
This then creates an environment where you can blob still, but you require the skill to not be hitting your own ships with friendly fire, so if you manage to out blob the other guy, you are actually showing a degree of skill, not just of numbers. |

Pipa Porto
1458
|
Posted - 2013.12.26 01:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:If they introduce the tessellation tech, it becomes much easier to do as the graphics engine then automatically calculates it.
Tessellation is your graphics apparatus interpreting the data the server is sending it in order to make pretty pictures.
The server does not and will never trust any calculations that a client hands it. For obvious reasons. So adding Tessellation would do nothing to reduce server load.
Calculating the fire arc and missile paths of everything and comparing each one to the models of everything else would be a catastrophic increase in server load. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
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