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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |

Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
128
|
Posted - 2013.12.29 21:42:00 -
[61] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Hey guy, I launched a bubble with my Sabre & died because I couldn't warp away. Is there any logical reasoning behind this game mechanic?
aww, isn't that cute.
Beekeeper Bob wrote:I really hope this is a troll....
It's a counter-intuitive mechanic that adds to the game and people are whining that someone doesn't get it right away?
Well it's a good thing that bubble mechanics are the only complicated multifaceted feature in EVE. Tell me again about how every playstyle you dont engage in "doesn't require any effort" and everyone who does it needs to die in a fire. Be sure to mention about how you tried it once but it was too easy/boring/ethnic-homophobic slur.-á |

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
236
|
Posted - 2013.12.29 22:25:00 -
[62] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:The solution is bookmarks.
Lots and lots of well placed bookmarks.
Back in the day the creation of bookmarks was a mandatory skill you would teach to newbies on day 1 because you could not warp to 0 on gates automatically.
This sucked, of course. But despite this, the importance of bookmarks remains a central theme.
Personally I think the newbie tutorials aught to cover bookmarking to the extent of bubbles/tacticals/etc. It's a rather vague mechanic unless you have experienced it -- which is exactly what tutorials are supposed to do. Force experiences to underline the importance of various mechanics.
I agree with all of this
For the OP .. here are some really good reasons for the dynamic I see:
1) it rewards preparation.
2) All things being equal, it tends to create an advantage for those who "live" in systems over strangers coming through Sovereignty isn't the only way to "claim" space...and NPC space can be claimed to a lesser or greater degree with things like having bookmarks, having a POS there, knowing local names and corporations ... forging working relations with other locals.. setting up intel channels with those semi-allies which can help, etc
As to "celestrials" or lack thereof, there are a couple ways to make bookmarks that you should get in the habit of. A virtually effortless manner is to have people and places open and push "create bookmark" a couple times when in warp. It takes extra effort to rename them and assess if they are any good as a bounce, but it is a start that might come in handy.
BEST way for areas where you live or hunt is to fly a interceptor around and make bookmarks 175 400 and 600 above, to the side or below the gate. (600 is off normal grid and they can't see you nor can you see their names but you can easily scan ship types at gate.)
You can warp to the 175 without getting sucked into the warp bubble and almost always warp to the gate and jump from those lateral angles (use your eyes then to be sure there isn't any bubble in line .... if it is camped well.. go the other direction or try the "log off safely" while aligned and/or attention to probing drones etc (separate lesson there)
those "tacticals" can be used to catch others at tacticals near yours or by choosing the warp to within x of them to grab them.
A game should reward some skill and preparation IMO . I'm not a "quick twitch" game guy but I like the "x's and o's" stuff more and I like the idea that not all systems are equal... that they have "man made" features.. one of which are bookmarks I've made. . |

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
236
|
Posted - 2013.12.29 22:35:00 -
[63] - Quote
As for the "informational disparity"
First, see my above post's ideas about the benefit of the feeling of "home" and player based texture that makes systems more about players when time in system gives benefits. The enviroment gets richer and less computer static that way.
But.. to the "not fair" part.... you can quickly come to an equal footing with the bookmarks in a few dozen systems where you regularly go (whether to hunt or pve etc)
The disparity is only about how much of the huge map you've explored and prepared for.
Discovery and "progress" is an important part of a virtual world immersion ... aspects of the game that enhance the benefit of that are valued by many MMO fans.
You can have equal footing quickly for lots of activities.. just not for far flung areas you've never been too.. but that can be a goal, and or, you can do everything in a smaller area. . |

Markku Laaksonen
EVE University Ivy League
297
|
Posted - 2013.12.29 22:40:00 -
[64] - Quote
I knew about these mechanics beforehand and understand the way it works if the bubble is in line with where you warp from to where you warp to. However, (this happened a couple months ago, anecdotal and whatnot) is there some angle associated with that 'line'?
After getting stuck in nullsec once, a friend and I tried to travel to a new destination. We saw a bubble and took precautions. He warped first, got stuck, blew up. I warped from a different planet that should have brought me in from a different angle, but got stuck in the same bubble.
It's very possible my memory is mistaken. Does anyone else have any experience with this? |

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5999
|
Posted - 2013.12.29 23:09:00 -
[65] - Quote
Markku Laaksonen wrote:I knew about these mechanics beforehand and understand the way it works if the bubble is in line with where you warp from to where you warp to. However, (this happened a couple months ago, anecdotal and whatnot) is there some angle associated with that 'line'?
After getting stuck in nullsec once, a friend and I tried to travel to a new destination. We saw a bubble and took precautions. He warped first, got stuck, blew up. I warped from a different planet that should have brought me in from a different angle, but got stuck in the same bubble.
It's very possible my memory is mistaken. Does anyone else have any experience with this? there's no angle, but if the line passes within the radius of the bubble you will get caught.
if you warped from different spots, you can still get dragged, you won't land in the same place on the bubble, maybe a little to the side...
Think of a long thing triangle with a bubble at the end. Warping from the end to the point will still get you dragged.
Oh and some good camps have multiple drag bubbles from all the different gates, the station(s) etc etc ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over. |

Apocryphal Noise
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
86
|
Posted - 2013.12.29 23:33:00 -
[66] - Quote
crying about drag bubbles, the most ancient mechanic in the game
WIthout it, 0.0 camps would have no potency, bombers would be absolutely risk free in fleet fights, making them more of a force multiplier than they already are, and tactical manipulation of battlefields with bubbles would be almost 0. Bubbles are the "terrain" of this game. |

Brendan Anneto
Gladiators of Rage Fidelas Constans
13
|
Posted - 2013.12.29 23:55:00 -
[67] - Quote
Ryan Cady wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:This isn't new. Everyone who's flown in nullsec for a while is aware of this. The logical reasoning is that it allows you to set traps for your enemies. Well yeah that's the logic, but shouldn't I be able to warp in at a distance? I just think it's kinda crazy that even though I select 100km I still warp in at 10km That is why you create tacticles above gates and use interceptors as scouts. Rule number 1 of nullsec warfare
Proverbs 1:26-27 |

Xavier Higdon
Wolfbane Hauler Inc
275
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 00:03:00 -
[68] - Quote
While whining about dying is something nobody should do, I can't help but point out, again, that there is no clear documentation in game to aid in understanding how bubbles work. The name is misleading, as Warp Disruption conjures images of being unable to warp, not being forced to warp further than intended. There is nothing wrong with them, though I don't know their full capabilities. For instance, if I place a bubble between point A and point B, without it being at either point, would it cause you to be pulled out of warp when moving between those two points? Or does it only work by being at the end point? If it's the latter than it does not disrupt warpping at all, but rather disrupts your destination while leaving your actual warp untouched. Furthermore, drag bubbles don't seem to disrupt warp either. Instead it appears they supercharge your warp, causing you to fly further than anticipated. If they do not currently effect warp(except to prevent your doing so while within the bubble) I'd like to see them changed so that they do. I want to see(or hear about, since I'm not in a Null Sec PvP Corp) a well placed bubble drag a fleet out of warp and into an ambush. As I said prior, they appear to be more Warp Navigation Disruptor than actual Warp Disruption or Interdiction Field. Personally, I like the idea of Interdictors being able to set up somewhere along a route, deploy and begin dragging ships out of warp. Player controlled toll booths, anyone? Wolfbane Hauler Inc Looking For Combat And Industrial Pilots |

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
237
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 00:19:00 -
[69] - Quote
Xavier Higdon wrote:While whining about dying is something nobody should do, I can't help but point out, again, that there is no clear documentation in game to aid in understanding how bubbles work. The name is misleading, as Warp Disruption conjures images of being unable to warp, not being forced to warp further than intended. There is nothing wrong with them, though I don't know their full capabilities. For instance, if I place a bubble between point A and point B, without it being at either point, would it cause you to be pulled out of warp when moving between those two points? Or does it only work by being at the end point? If it's the latter than it does not disrupt warpping at all, but rather disrupts your destination while leaving your actual warp untouched. Furthermore, drag bubbles don't seem to disrupt warp either. Instead it appears they supercharge your warp, causing you to fly further than anticipated. If they do not currently effect warp(except to prevent your doing so while within the bubble) I'd like to see them changed so that they do. I want to see(or hear about, since I'm not in a Null Sec PvP Corp) a well placed bubble drag a fleet out of warp and into an ambush. As I said prior, they appear to be more Warp Navigation Disruptor than actual Warp Disruption or Interdiction Field. Personally, I like the idea of Interdictors being able to set up somewhere along a route, deploy and begin dragging ships out of warp. Player controlled toll booths, anyone?
You know, I feel your pain about "no in-game documentation" yet, unless EVE is the only detailed computer game that you've played you must have experienced the need to rely on third party sites or forums etc to really understand "spells" or in things like "world of tanks" penetration abilty based on armor angle etc.
Tool tips are never going to give the all of it. I know that you are not saying "all" and but that the "trap" aspect isn't what you would initially expect but you've got to know from other games that you need to do more than guess what they mean.
Relying on third party sites is the norm. In game boxes would really be insufficient and likely not very understandable if done consistently with other development process .
Technical writers would not only be expensive but nearly impossible to understand in ways that other players can portray. (often it takes someone saying something three different ways for me to "grok" the idea well enough to understand the extra detail in the prior explanations.
In this particular case.. you have an EVE sponsored site (created by volunteer players in an iterative fashion) that does a pretty darn good explanation
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Ship_Equipment:Deployable_Equipment:Warp_Disruption_Fields
Yes this is a complex game, but so are most PC games ... even those with only 4 action buttons won't have tool tips that explain stacking and immunity etc in enough detail to really be effective.
. |

Xavier Higdon
Wolfbane Hauler Inc
276
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 01:45:00 -
[70] - Quote
I disagree with your argument that EvE's complexity has any bearing on the counter-intuitive naming of Warp Disruption Fields. The problem is that they do not disrupt warp in any manner unless you're already within their area of effect. This would be great if that was their only purpose, but as it is not, we run into the issue that their name and description give you no hint of this other usage. I don't see a problem with the mechanics behind them, and they aren't very complex at all. If a bubble is anchored at Point A, you cannot warp from Point A. If a bubble is anchored at Point B after you warp to Point B, you pass right through the bubble(meaning it does not disrupt your warp). If the bubble is anchored 100KM behind Point B before you warp there, you will be dragged to it's outer edge(meaning it, again, did not disrupt your warp). The only time it actually disrupts your warp is if it is anchored 100KM in front of Point B before you initiate your warp to said point. The first and last examples are the only time it acts as a "Warp Disruptor," while in the second and third examples it is acting as a "Navigation Disruptor." I just think this is a missed opportunity for adding complexity and tactical planning to EvE. Wolfbane Hauler Inc Looking For Combat And Industrial Pilots |

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
238
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 02:01:00 -
[71] - Quote
Xavier Higdon wrote:I disagree with your argument that EvE's complexity has any bearing on the counter-intuitive naming of Warp Disruption Fields. The problem is that they do not disrupt warp in any manner unless you're already within their area of effect. This would be great if that was their only purpose, but as it is not, we run into the issue that their name and description give you no hint of this other usage. I don't see a problem with the mechanics behind them, and they aren't very complex at all. If a bubble is anchored at Point A, you cannot warp from Point A. If a bubble is anchored at Point B after you warp to Point B, you pass right through the bubble(meaning it does not disrupt your warp). If the bubble is anchored 100KM behind Point B before you warp there, you will be dragged to it's outer edge(meaning it, again, did not disrupt your warp). The only time it actually disrupts your warp is if it is anchored 100KM in front of Point B before you initiate your warp to said point. The first and last examples are the only time it acts as a "Warp Disruptor," while in the second and third examples it is acting as a "Navigation Disruptor." I just think this is a missed opportunity for adding complexity and tactical planning to EvE.
The point was not that EVE was more complex but that most popular PC games are complex and almost all have essoteric spells, abilities or item mechanics that need to be explored on third party sites.
... but it seems like you've made up your mind that the norm is to understand computer game mechanics from reading tool tips and guessing their function from their names.
I wonder what games you play with such precision in description ? I'd think if you are a regular computer game player that you've come to understand that it takes a lot of trial and error and a lot of probing behind simple wording after you've got enough context to understand further descriptions. . |

Nuemsi Arkaral
Free Space Tech Banderlogs Alliance
0
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Posted - 2013.12.30 02:33:00 -
[72] - Quote
And at me the big doubts in logical correctness are raised by the Engine Enervator module. In the description it is told: "Reduces the maximum speed of the ship, using the power streams which are temporarily seizing the ship in a stazis-field and slowing down its movement. " Thus force of a field made by the module is constant since it consumes constant quantity of energy. And it equally effectively slows down both tiny frigates weighing 1 thousand tons, and enormous battle ships in hundreds thousands tons of weight. logically, they could brake a planet, and can even small solar system :) I want to tell that it would be quite good to make a penalty on overall performance of this module for the ships which weight categories strongly differ. p.s. sorry for my bad english :) |
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ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1045

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Posted - 2013.12.30 03:32:00 -
[73] - Quote

Ow.
Post those in F&I and you have my like and +1. ISD LackOfFaith Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department @ISD_LackOfFaith on Twitter |
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Xavier Higdon
Wolfbane Hauler Inc
277
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 03:56:00 -
[74] - Quote
Diomedes Calypso wrote:Xavier Higdon wrote:I disagree with your argument that EvE's complexity has any bearing on the counter-intuitive naming of Warp Disruption Fields. The problem is that they do not disrupt warp in any manner unless you're already within their area of effect. This would be great if that was their only purpose, but as it is not, we run into the issue that their name and description give you no hint of this other usage. I don't see a problem with the mechanics behind them, and they aren't very complex at all. If a bubble is anchored at Point A, you cannot warp from Point A. If a bubble is anchored at Point B after you warp to Point B, you pass right through the bubble(meaning it does not disrupt your warp). If the bubble is anchored 100KM behind Point B before you warp there, you will be dragged to it's outer edge(meaning it, again, did not disrupt your warp). The only time it actually disrupts your warp is if it is anchored 100KM in front of Point B before you initiate your warp to said point. The first and last examples are the only time it acts as a "Warp Disruptor," while in the second and third examples it is acting as a "Navigation Disruptor." I just think this is a missed opportunity for adding complexity and tactical planning to EvE. The point was not that EVE was more complex but that most popular PC games are complex and almost all have essoteric spells, abilities or item mechanics that need to be explored on third party sites. ... but it seems like you've made up your mind that the norm is to understand computer game mechanics from reading tool tips and guessing their function from their names. I wonder what games you play with such precision in description ? I'd think if you are a regular computer game player that you've come to understand that it takes a lot of trial and error and a lot of probing behind simple wording after you've got enough context to understand further descriptions.
To be honest, I don't play World of Warcraft so I have no clue how "complex" it is in naming it's spells and abilities. I have heard, however, that it is quite simple. Complexity has nothing to do with naming a module, or spell as you like to call them, in such a manner as to not cause confusion about it's purpose. It seems that you're not a fan of SciFi so I understand that you would be unfamiliar with the common meaning behind Interdictors and Warp Disruptors, but regardless of this it still comes down to the simple fact that there is absolutely no documentation in game of using Warp Disruptor Fields as a means to change a target's destination.
Now, I understand that not all people can be as intelligent as some of us, and that some are so lacking in the ability to comprehend that they might need a full webpage to do what a sentence can for the rest of us, but that is no excuse for utterly ignoring a function of an in game module(spell).
As to what games I play, I've played the Civilization series since Civ 2. I'm a fan of DF and Aurora 4X. Europa Universalis has recently caught my attention. I enjoy Endless Space and GalCiv, as well as games of Sins of a Solar Empire once in awhile. All of those games, including the two that were and are being developed by a single person each, generally have pretty well written documentation as to what each thing is. Now sure, Aurora 4X can be a bit confusing if you don't know Naval terms, but it still does a fairly good job of letting you know what a CIWS is used for, or what AMMs are used for. The problem I see is that in failing to document a usage for an in game item you are not adding complexity, you're just adding ambiguity, especially when the usage is counter-intuitive to the name. But please, do continue to argue that a game is complex because it comes with incomplete documentation. Wolfbane Hauler Inc Looking For Combat And Industrial Pilots |

Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
142
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 04:41:00 -
[75] - Quote
So even if you warp in at 100km, if there was a bubble anywhere (how far?) in front of your warp in point, the bubble pulls you in? Is that right? "I think weGÇÖre just getting closer and closer to a place where the people we lose are people that itGÇÖs okay to lose." -Kristoffer Touborg, Eve lead designer
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ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1045

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Posted - 2013.12.30 04:45:00 -
[76] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:So even if you warp in at 100km, if there was a bubble anywhere (how far?) in front of your warp in point, the bubble pulls you in? Is that right? Yes. It matters not what distance you warp to if your extended warp "path" intersects with the bubble at some point. ISD LackOfFaith Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department @ISD_LackOfFaith on Twitter |
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MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
237
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 04:53:00 -
[77] - Quote
ISD LackOfFaith wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:So even if you warp in at 100km, if there was a bubble anywhere (how far?) in front of your warp in point, the bubble pulls you in? Is that right? Yes. It matters not what distance you warp to if your extended warp "path" intersects with the bubble at some point. ...provided that intersection point is on the same grid as your original destination. (i.e. you can't anchor a bubble several AU beyond a gate and drag people to it)
MDD |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
7967
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 04:59:00 -
[78] - Quote
It doesn't necessarily have to be on the same grid, actually. It has to be close though. I'm not sure exactly how far but it's at least 200 km. But it is possible to be pulled into a bubble on a separate grid from your warp destination (both on a grid closer to your departure point and on a grid further away).
PL have been taking advantage of this quite a bit in G-0. They like to manipulate the grid around the 7-1 station to break it at a point about 200 or so km off in the direction of the 5-5 station, and then place a bubble between the two in the second grid.
Since every celestial in the system is within d-scan range of the 7-1 station it's fairly trivial to avoid this, and everyone ought to have tacticals by now anyway. Grid-fu like this is wonky and it's a pretty ridiculous technique but it's certainly not an exploit. Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |

Aiwha
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
669
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 05:06:00 -
[79] - Quote
Ryan Cady wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:This isn't new. Everyone who's flown in nullsec for a while is aware of this. The logical reasoning is that it allows you to set traps for your enemies. Well yeah that's the logic, but shouldn't I be able to warp in at a distance? I just think it's kinda crazy that even though I select 100km I still warp in at 10km
Its called a drag bubble. Don't warp directly to gates. We're winning the war if it says so on CAOD! -á
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Karrl Tian
Bourbon Bandits Anarchy.
363
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 10:20:00 -
[80] - Quote
Cov ops as null shuttles are so 2012. |

Katran Luftschreck
Stillwater Corporation
2098
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 11:51:00 -
[81] - Quote
ISD LackOfFaith wrote:If your line of warp has a bubble along it, you warp right to the bubble instead of to the point you actually wanted to warp to. It's a feature of mobile warp disruptors (and warp bubbles in general), which lets people better lie traps in 0.0
I wonder which CSM slurped on which CCP to get this stupid idea rammed through? Nullsec in a Nutshell: http://nedroid.com/comics/2006-08-24-2155-arrrdino.gif |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
18614
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 12:09:00 -
[82] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:I wonder which CSM slurped on which CCP to get this stupid idea rammed through? Let's seeGǪ bubbles GÇö introduced in 2003. CSM GÇö introduced 2008.
So that would be someone in CSM -5, then.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

Katran Luftschreck
Stillwater Corporation
2098
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 12:21:00 -
[83] - Quote
So it was you, then? Nullsec in a Nutshell: http://nedroid.com/comics/2006-08-24-2155-arrrdino.gif |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
18614
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 12:24:00 -
[84] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:So it was you, then? If I had the prerequisite time machine, I'd use it for far more interesting things. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
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