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EternalDark	Posted - 2006.03.14 08:51:00 - [1] Edited by: EternalDark on 14/03/2006 08:51:04 To avoid accusations of whining and the like in this thread I will only present facts. -discrepancies between Missile skills and turret skills: Fact: -Surgical Strike skill bonus 3% damage bonus per lvl. -Warhead Upgrades skill bonus 2% damage bonus per lvl. >Turrets favored Fact: -Rapid firing skill bonus 4% rof bonus per lvl. + Gunnery skill bonus 2% rof bonus per lvl. = 30% total rof bonus. -Rapid launch skill bonus 3% rof bonus per lvl + Missile launcher operations skill bonus 2% rof bonus per lvl. = 25% total rof bonus. >Turrets favored Fact: -List of gunnery skills that can be cross trained into other weapons fields: +Surgical strike +Rapid firing +Sharpshooter +Motion prediction +Controlled Bursts +Trajectory analysis -Total = 6 -List of missile skills that can be cross trained into other weapons fields: -Total = 0 >Turrets favored Fact: -Guided missile prediction does not affect all missiles types. -All secondary gunnery skills affect all turret types. >Turrets favored -discrepancies between turret modules and missile modules: Fact: -Tek II turret damage modifier û 30 cpu -Tek II missile damage modifier û 40 cpu >Turrets favored Fact: -Missiles have no modules that affect their accuracy or their range/velocity. -Turrets have several modules that affect their accuracy and their range. >Turrets favored -A few things extra: Fact: -Turrets do instantaneous damage but have to switch ammo to set range. -Missiles do not do instantaneous damage but do not have to switch ammo to set range. >Neither favored Fact: -The costs for ballistic control IIÆs, and Tek II launchers are still very high despite being released months ago, while their turret counterparts, having been released years ago, are significantly cheaper. Fact: -There are only a handful of ships that cater to missile users while there are many more that cater to turret users. The facts speak for themselves, missile users are at a disadvantage across the board. Please make things right Dev team. Mission runners are not the only people spamming missiles.
Phasics	Posted - 2006.03.14 08:53:00 - [2] here's a thought remove the T2 missle penalties but leave the T2 ammo penalties on, and then missle users will be happy :)
EternalDark	Posted - 2006.03.14 08:55:00 - [3] No we will not be happy, another bandaid fix is not what is required to balance the system.
Hohenheim OfLight	Posted - 2006.03.14 08:56:00 - [4] FACT Missles never miss Turret's do Missles out way turret's ----------------------------------------------
EternalDark	Posted - 2006.03.14 08:58:00 - [5] Edited by: EternalDark on 14/03/2006 08:58:16 Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight FACT Missles never miss Turret's do Missles out way turret's (Your bane torpedo hits so and so's interceptor causing 0 damage.) You are mistaken.
Drayce	Posted - 2006.03.14 09:26:00 - [6] Use turrets then? Seriously mate, I applaud the effort you've gone to in gathering these facts but bottom line is that if missiles sucked so much, very few people would bother to use them and I can assure you that the Kestrel, Cerberus, Raven and Caracal are nowhere near the least used ships in Eve.
Gorgons	Posted - 2006.03.14 09:38:00 - [7] Edited by: Gorgons on 14/03/2006 09:41:36 Originally by: Drayce Use turrets then? Seriously mate, I applaud the effort you've gone to in gathering these facts but bottom line is that if missiles sucked so much, very few people would bother to use them and I can assure you that the Kestrel, Cerberus, Raven and Caracal are nowhere near the least used ships in Eve. I love missiles, and would certainly not change over to turrets. oh and one to add to your facts list, alot of the missile boats only has a damage bonus to one damage type. just my two isk ---------------------------------- OMG! what does it say...
Obmud	Posted - 2006.03.14 09:43:00 - [8] Stupid comparison, it does not take tracking and damage into account including other stuff. " The facts speak for themselves, missile users are at a disadvantage across the board. Please make things right Dev team. Mission runners are not the only people spamming missiles. " These "facts" prove nothing as stated above. They might be "facts" but they don't lead to that conclusion. I'd say nerve missiles. That's me against you. I guess they found a good middleway then. ----------------------- Stupid. And proud of it.
Vincent Rainbow	Posted - 2006.03.14 09:45:00 - [9] FACT: you can only use missiles properly on very few ships FACT: you can use turrets on all the rest
Demitri Klashnikov	Posted - 2006.03.14 09:48:00 - [10] A Missile ship is about the only ship I wouldnt attack with a lower classed ship, so no -----------------------------------------------

Aminatar	Posted - 2006.03.14 09:50:00 - [11] Originally by: EternalDark Fact: -Missiles have no modules that affect their accuracy or their range/velocity. ORLY? Check missile projection, missile bombardment, and also to reduce speed effect on explosion damage there's target navigation prediction. Also, as another poster said, missiles never miss, and although I haven't made the math, I don't think missiles are that bad or even bad at all
Sim Frost	Posted - 2006.03.14 09:52:00 - [12] Very interesting post, especially considering all the posts trying to prove that missiles are superior over guns. In fact, I was so worried with the number of posts on so called "missile uberness" that I feared CCP would nerf them again. So, thank you for taking the opposite view with presenting detailed facts. Honestly though, I still favor missiles. First and foremost, I don't have to deal with trajectory, optimal/minimal distance, short/long range, etc. It is refreshing having to deal with as fewer calculations and mathematics as possible after a long days work :D And secondly, as someone pointed, missiles always hit! imho, the only disadvantage is ridiculous dmg on small signature vs. with guns. I am not saying that missiles can't be improved. Tech2 missile mods are still too expensive, etc. Good post
Vincent Rainbow	Posted - 2006.03.14 10:01:00 - [13] Originally by: Aminatar Originally by: EternalDark Fact: -Missiles have no modules that affect their accuracy or their range/velocity. ORLY? Check missile projection, missile bombardment, and also to reduce speed effect on explosion damage there's target navigation prediction. They are skills, not modules
Aldrarian	Posted - 2006.03.14 10:02:00 - [14] Originally by: EternalDark (Your bane torpedo hits so and so's interceptor causing 0 damage.) You are mistaken. You should stop saying that kind of thing or people will think you have no idea on missile mechanics (which is pretty bad for someone that is supposed to have done a correct analysis). How can you launch bane torpedo on interceptor... Fit your missile to your target and stop crying.
Gorgons	Posted - 2006.03.14 10:19:00 - [15] Originally by: Aldrarian Originally by: EternalDark (Your bane torpedo hits so and so's interceptor causing 0 damage.) You are mistaken. You should stop saying that kind of thing or people will think you have no idea on missile mechanics (which is pretty bad for someone that is supposed to have done a correct analysis). How can you launch bane torpedo on interceptor... Fit your missile to your target and stop crying. I fired cruise missiles on an inty with my bomber, the DOT was just around 7.0 per missile. Normally I can insta pop any frigate with cruise from a bomber because of the reduced explosion radius, but because this guy was flying around +3.5 km/s i couldn't hit him. So eventhough missiles "might" hit everytime, I'm quite sure every ship in eve can tank 7.0 in damage. also almost every large turret would have popped this inty if he was comming right at him with the mwd active, because speed doesn't matter when you are aligned with the target and using turrets. ---------------------------------- OMG! what does it say...
hired thug	Posted - 2006.03.14 10:30:00 - [16] Fact: Missiles do max dmg all the time Turrets dont
Gorgons	Posted - 2006.03.14 10:34:00 - [17] Fact: Turrets have wrecking hits Missiles don't ---------------------------------- OMG! what does it say...
Alyth	Posted - 2006.03.14 10:36:00 - [18] Originally by: Gorgons I fired cruise missiles on an inty with my bomber, the DOT was just around 7.0 per missile. Normally I can insta pop any frigate with cruise from a bomber because of the reduced explosion radius, but because this guy was flying around +3.5 km/s i couldn't hit him. So eventhough missiles "might" hit everytime, I'm quite sure every ship in eve can tank 7.0 in damage. also almost every large turret would have popped this inty if he was comming right at him with the mwd active, because speed doesn't matter when you are aligned with the target and using turrets. 1. Train for precision cruise and use those on inties. 2. If hes moving too fast fit a damn webber. 3. And a target painter for that matter. 4. A turret may well be able to pop that inty. If it's not within 30km. Once something moving that fast gets under your guns you are screwed. 5. With the right skills you can hit that inty from 200km+ for much better damage with precision cruise. Think closer to bomber damage. Just the same as you need the right skills and fitting to take out inies in a turret based ship. I fly both, I favour none. I prefer drones
Teles666	Posted - 2006.03.14 10:38:00 - [19] Fact I rolled a new char to specialise in missiles. I'm either deluded or they're not as bad as you make out. I'd like a damage mod for helping kill frigs, but tbh it isn't too hard anyway :)
Ashelth	Posted - 2006.03.14 10:46:00 - [20] Originally by: EternalDark Fact: -Rapid firing skill bonus 4% rof bonus per lvl. + Gunnery skill bonus 2% rof bonus per lvl. = 30% total rof bonus. -Rapid launch skill bonus 3% rof bonus per lvl + Missile launcher operations skill bonus 2% rof bonus per lvl. = 25% total rof bonus. >Turrets favored Basic math ftl :p With all applicable skills @ level 5... Turrets = .8 * .9 = .72 modifier to rof (28% increased rate of fire. Missiles = .85 * .9 = .765 (23.5% increased rate of fire). Overall advantage turrets by 4.5% ____________ The issue becomes more complicated with t2 skills. t2 guns = damage bonus. t2 missiles = rof bonus. Thus: Tach 2 w/, surgical 5, rapid fire 5, gunnery 5 and gamma (can't be bothered to look up the stats on multi). 7.33x 9 sec rof = 39.1 dps Tach 2 w/ spec 5 and all that other stuff. 8.06x damage mod, 9 sec rof = 42.9 dps Now, if the t2 spec = 2% rof... 43.33 dps Cruise missiles same skill levels: Condition 1, no spec Condition 2, spec (rof) Condition 3, spec (damage) 1) base damage 412.5, rof 13.464 = 30.63 dps 2) damage = constant, rof 12.117 = 34.04 dps 3) damage = 453.75, rof 13.464 = 33.71 dps _______________ From a dps standpoint, using these exmaples, rof > dps as far as bonuses go. Looking at pulse lasers should probably be done for verification, it should hold true there too but my gut says damage > rof when rof < 5 seconds. Anyhoo, I want lower cpu on bcus! Missiles already use more cpu than any other weapons... 6x siege launcher 2s on a raven takes up so much cpu :( And I'm not trying to fit a full rack of anything on the highs... slots 7/8 are empty because there's no cpu left (my raven fittings both siege and cruise are at 100% cpu -- WITH those slots empty... And I still have less t2 than on my amarr bses.)

Gorgons	Posted - 2006.03.14 10:53:00 - [21] Originally by: Alyth 1. Train for precision cruise and use those on inties. 2. If hes moving too fast fit a damn webber. 3. And a target painter for that matter. 4. A turret may well be able to pop that inty. If it's not within 30km. Once something moving that fast gets under your guns you are screwed. 5. With the right skills you can hit that inty from 200km+ for much better damage with precision cruise. Think closer to bomber damage. Just the same as you need the right skills and fitting to take out inies in a turret based ship. I fly both, I favour none. I prefer drones A webber will help if hes within webber range, a target painter wont do anything because his speed is already so high, and with cruise missiles in a bomber, the explosion radius is already under 40m. At 200km that inty is waaay gone long before your missiles will even get close, and at that range you can pretty easy instapop that inty in every sniper turret ship. Don't get me wrong, I love missiles, and think that both types are very close to being in balance, but I would love to see some more modules for missiles, like modules lowering explosion radius, increasing flight time and such have a nice day ---------------------------------- OMG! what does it say...
Swethren	Posted - 2006.03.14 11:00:00 - [22] FACT: - Missile Bays use Less PG - Turrets use lots of PG FACT: - Missiles use no cap - Turrets use cap Your example on torps hitting inty and not doing any dmg is stupid. Its like me saying my 425mm rail gun couldn't hit an inty and doing any dmg. Missiles don't hit things, they have an activation "area". A torps area is big and if a ship is small and fast enough, it won't get hurt, cause it's not actualy close enough and is too fast. Missiles are fine, use a painter. ------------------------------------------------------------------
Jacinto Naysmith	Posted - 2006.03.14 11:04:00 - [23] Originally by: hired thug Fact: Missiles do max dmg all the time Turrets dont This is incorrect, missiles do not do max damage all the time. Missile damage is reduced by the target's speed and signature radius, in addition to damage type resists.
Verone	Posted - 2006.03.14 11:09:00 - [24] Originally by: EternalDark Edited by: EternalDark on 14/03/2006 08:51:04 To avoid accusations of whining and the like in this thread I will only present facts. -discrepancies between Missile skills and turret skills: Fact: -Surgical Strike skill bonus 3% damage bonus per lvl. -Warhead Upgrades skill bonus 2% damage bonus per lvl. >Turrets favored Fact: -Rapid firing skill bonus 4% rof bonus per lvl. + Gunnery skill bonus 2% rof bonus per lvl. = 30% total rof bonus. -Rapid launch skill bonus 3% rof bonus per lvl + Missile launcher operations skill bonus 2% rof bonus per lvl. = 25% total rof bonus. >Turrets favored Fact: -List of gunnery skills that can be cross trained into other weapons fields: +Surgical strike +Rapid firing +Sharpshooter +Motion prediction +Controlled Bursts +Trajectory analysis -Total = 6 -List of missile skills that can be cross trained into other weapons fields: -Total = 0 >Turrets favored Fact: -Guided missile prediction does not affect all missiles types. -All secondary gunnery skills affect all turret types. >Turrets favored -discrepancies between turret modules and missile modules: Fact: -Tek II turret damage modifier û 30 cpu -Tek II missile damage modifier û 40 cpu >Turrets favored Fact: -Missiles have no modules that affect their accuracy or their range/velocity. -Turrets have several modules that affect their accuracy and their range. >Turrets favored -A few things extra: Fact: -Turrets do instantaneous damage but have to switch ammo to set range. -Missiles do not do instantaneous damage but do not have to switch ammo to set range. >Neither favored Fact: -The costs for ballistic control IIÆs, and Tek II launchers are still very high despite being released months ago, while their turret counterparts, having been released years ago, are significantly cheaper. Fact: -There are only a handful of ships that cater to missile users while there are many more that cater to turret users. The facts speak for themselves, missile users are at a disadvantage across the board. Please make things right Dev team. Mission runners are not the only people spamming missiles. I was preparing a pretty long and detailed post to counter this, however since a few of the things that I noticed have already been pointed out, and the initial argument holds no water, and is formed as whine in disguise of a list of facts, I won't bother. Missiles and turrets are fine. Adapt. VETO MEMBER MOVIES
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.03.14 11:10:00 - [25] Aw shut it already EternalDark. You truly sound like a child with your missile whines all the damn time. Can't you simply get your head around the possibility that different numbers mean different things ? You just go and yank em out of context to compare. The result of looking at those numbers individually out of context is only one thing: You looking like an idiot. A small and exceedingly simple example to fit your seemingly limited abilities to fathom what relativity can mean: A 5% rof bonus A 3% rof bonus With your logic, that 5% bonus gun is favoured here. You fail to look at the balance between the two guns in terms of dps, alpha-strike, and any other secondary abilities (like switching times, ammo ranges/penalties, tracking, bla bla bla). So were we to simply add only a single of the possible other variables at play we could well get the next picture for this example: A 5% rof bonus on a gun that does 500 damage per shot. A 3% rof bonus on a weapon that does 1000 damage per shot. Hmm, wait ! Now the second is actually better ! Could it be EternalDark, that CCP take into account all these other variables that you happily forget to mention here when they balance the weapon classes and types ? Could it just maybe be, that things are quite allright ? Let me tell you, regardless of what is true. Your original post here proves that missiles are overpowered as much as it proves they are underpowered. Essentially, it's entirely useless as an argument. Power to the players !
Avon	Posted - 2006.03.14 11:14:00 - [26] Missiles are prettier than turrets, and at the end of the day, that is all that matters. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Copine Callmeknau	Posted - 2006.03.14 11:15:00 - [27] Fact: -- Santa Claus exists Fact: -- So does the Easter bunny Fact: -- Missiles are fine as they are, quit whining. ------- With five million sheep in this army I seem to be the only one fit to command
Gorgons	Posted - 2006.03.14 11:21:00 - [28] Originally by: Avon Missiles are prettier than turrets, and at the end of the day, that is all that matters. QFT.. You hit it spot in there ohh, and CCP, can we pretty please with sugar on top, have some graphics for missile bays on the ships. ---------------------------------- OMG! what does it say...
Sharcy	Posted - 2006.03.14 11:26:00 - [29] While I fully support your call for missile-lovin', a thought or 2: Originally by: EternalDark Fact: -Missiles have no modules that affect their accuracy or their range/velocity. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, aren't you forgetting Ballistic Control Systems? (I probably am, since you mention them a little further on) Originally by: EternalDark Fact: -The costs for ballistic control II’s, and Tek II launchers are still very high despite being released months ago, while their turret counterparts, having been released years ago, are significantly cheaper. True, but that's inherent to market dynamics of course. Unless massively more BPO's were to be seeded, it'll be a while before that changes. -- Sonnema is recruiting!
Gorgons	Posted - 2006.03.14 11:31:00 - [30] Originally by: Sharcy Unless I'm misunderstanding you, aren't you forgetting Ballistic Control Systems? (I probably am, since you mention them a little further on) Ballistic Control Systems "only" increase your damage and your rate of fire. there are no modules to increase any other aspect of missiles. ---------------------------------- OMG! what does it say...



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