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Ritual Union
ykx ltd
10
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 14:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ruger St1pe wrote:As the title says, as i'm a new player...
Dear Ruger St1pe and everyone else( bored to death and/or mentally able to read a wall text),
I'm a relatively new player myself. I made my first account five months ago. I want to thank you for making this topic. I find it to be more helpful to the new Eve players, and not only, than almost all the other topics in the EVE New Citizens Q&A combined. Why is that? On one hand, it is an insightful presentation on what Eve really is and on the other hand, it begs CPP to do the right thing for new players.
The most valuable lessons are the ones labeled with "you shouldn't do this". As such, your topic presents the most valuable lesson of all on Eve. What is it?
The original poster, a wannabe king of the jungle, is giving us a useful example. We have a new player. He is graciously making a fool of himself. He puts a higher price on his stubbornness of doing things his own way instead of reflecting on all the good advices he received. The lesson that the new players can learn is that Eve is Eve (I know how it sounds, you don't need to comment on it), not another game they previously played and mastered in more or less a week.
Bitter vets don't fell flattered! I didn't say that Eve is hard. I know most of you think Eve is harder than other games. I don't know if that is true or not. I don't have either the time, either the will, to try out all the games one can invent, but I don't find Eve to be hard at all. It is harsh, I can agree on that. You do something dumb and you will be punished in most cases. Anyway, once a player joins a decent corporation, Eve actually becomes almost a trivial game. What still holds true, even for a player in a top corporation, is this: don't do stupid things because you'll have to pay for them.
Therefore, Eve being Eve is the most valuable lesson of all. You can't come to Eve with the mindset you played other games and expect to work. It will not. The problem of the new players is that they don't know this. These other days, various Eve player run blogs discussed the topic of the new players for the "put a high number here" time. They suggested ways for CPP that could make Eve more accessible to new players. To my knowledge, they all followed the Eve is complex, and as such, it has a high learning curve, and GǪ the usual "everybody knows that" line of thought.
I think that, with the exception of the five percent of psychopaths, all the others gamers are nerds deep inside them. The Eve is complex and, hence, this is the main reason why most people don't make it, sounds somewhat insulting. The main reason new players don't stick with Eve is that the new players experience is not, in most cases, Eve like.
On top of that, or maybe better said - part of that, are the tutorials. We all like pranks, well most of us anyway, but none of us likes to be the subject of a prank or do we? The new player's experience, for so many of them, feels exactly like this: a CPP prank. You have a WOW like tutorial: go there, do that, come back etc. and then the insertion happens to be in Eve. You fly your shiny battleship, you worked your ass for it for only you know how long and then "boom": Armageddon happens. Shortly after, once again - in most cases, the rage follows "What the hell was that? Hmm, is that possible? There was nothing like that in the tutorials! **** this ****! I'm out!" Replace the example above with anything you want that is unique to Eve. The essence of it remains. It feels like CPP made a prank on you. If CPP does want more players, it can start but not playing pranks: "CPP: Are you a new player? Great, take a WOW tutorial! Did you take it? Yes! Wonderful, go and play Eve now! You're ready! "
Nevertheless, there may be a good side to all this, at least for CPP. When one is willing to suck it up something like that, it is because he sees the other side as a friend and no harsh feelings persist. In Eve case, it may mean few, but long-term, loyal customers. It crossed my mind, that what I call the CPP prank is their way of choosing loyal customers over just customers. However, this doesn't change the fact: new player experience feels like a CPP prank.
Don't get me wrong, I don't ask for a different Eve. I'm just making a case for an honest introduction of the new players to Eve because it is what I think new player's experience lacks. By the way, this should be CPP's job, not EveUni's job, i.e. Eve like tutorials.
Feel free to share your thoughts on this, to troll it, whateverGǪ, and - yes, like 99% of the Eve girls I'm not a girl. Thanks for reading.
Advertising Campaign: You will not click this link, you will block this character, you will leave a lame comment in local about this link, you will eve-mail me just to say that you don't care, and remember: under no circumstances you will click this link. |

Magna Mortem
the noise a cow makes while mating
141
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Posted - 2013.12.30 14:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
If you want an honest introduction then you should join those who fight and not those who complain, whine and run away. |

Sid Crash
17
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Posted - 2013.12.30 14:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
Well, at least the post has paragraphs so that's a plus. |

Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
254
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 14:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ritual Union wrote:I think that, with the exception of the five percent of psychopaths, all the others gamers are nerds deep inside them.
Confirming that I am a nerd deep inside. I think that is why I like EvE. It is more complex, more sophisticated, and more intellectual than ******* pandas.
-á"Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus |

J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
3481
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Posted - 2013.12.30 15:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Issue is: CCP can't make a tutorial that revolves around Player interaction. As you can't script it into a tutorial how a player reacts to another player.
I say...go back to the old tutorials: Here is your ship, here is the undock button...Go forth and multiply.
I doesn't give a false sense of security nor does it push anybody into any sort of mindset.
EDIT:
And the whole EVE-Uni part.
Another fine example of emergent gameplay where the players make the game and CCP just provides the tools to do it. Want to have some chat in game? Need help to get into the game as a new player? Just join my channel: Crazy Dutch Guy |

Pandora Barzane
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
71
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Posted - 2013.12.30 15:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kimmi Chan wrote:Ritual Union wrote:I think that, with the exception of the five percent of psychopaths, all the others gamers are nerds deep inside them. Confirming that I am a nerd deep inside. I think that is why I like EvE. It is more complex, more sophisticated, and more intellectual than ******* pandas.
uhm. no. to just put timers on everything, and divide every single aspect of the game into seperate skils wich are in turn also timesinks is not really sophisticated or intellectual, just clever marketing.
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
7991
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 15:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
I can't actually figure out what this thread is supposed to be about. Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |

Arduemont
The State of War.
2862
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Posted - 2013.12.30 15:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
I actually agree, for a change. More or less anyway. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |

Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1051
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Posted - 2013.12.30 15:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sid Crash wrote:Well, at least the post has paragraphs so that's a plus.
didn't make me read the whole thing though. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
18628
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Posted - 2013.12.30 15:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I can't actually figure out what this thread is supposed to be about. GÇ£PvE-based NPE does not prepare players for a PvP-centric universeGÇ¥. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

Ritual Union
ykx ltd
11
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Posted - 2013.12.30 15:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Magna Mortem wrote:If you want an honest introduction then you should join those who fight and not those who complain, whine and run away. Your power of deduction is astonishing, but, because there is almost always a "but", may I suggest that you have either an incorrect set of assumptions (i.e. relatively new player making a post to make a case for an honest introduction to eve for other new players equals whiner - I'm well past that point) , either poor reading comprehension skills?
J'Poll wrote:Issue is: CCP can't make a tutorial that revolves around Player interaction. As you can't script it into a tutorial how a player reacts to another player.
I say...go back to the old tutorials: Here is your ship, here is the undock button...Go forth and multiply.
I doesn't give a false sense of security nor does it push anybody into any sort of mindset.
EDIT:
And the whole EVE-Uni part.
Another fine example of emergent gameplay where the players make the game and CCP just provides the tools to do it.
CPP can script an entire virtual Universe of interacting players that is Eve Online but it can't script a player interacting tutorial inside the existing Eve universe. Did I get it right or GǪ? I don't know about you but that doesn't sound like Mozart to me, if you know what I mean. I'm not suggesting that they aren't challenges to overcome but still I think it is in their reach if they want to consider such thing. Advertising Campaign: You will not click this link, you will block this character, you will leave a lame comment in local about this link, you will eve-mail me just to say that you don't care, and remember: under no circumstances you will click this link. |

stoicfaux
3750
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 15:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tippia wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I can't actually figure out what this thread is supposed to be about. GÇ£PvE-based NPE does not prepare players for a PvP-centric universeGÇ¥. It used to, but then CCP banned PvP stuff directed at newbies in Rookie Systems.
So, yes, the OP is completely right about CCP playing pranks.
|

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
9694
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Posted - 2013.12.30 16:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
I got given 5000 isk and told to get on with it. When I got pod killed Aura laughed at me and called me clumsy. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |

Sofia Tsero
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 16:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'm a pretty new player myself so I have the Rookie Help channel open. It's nice for things like, "What does a blue container mean?" But 99% of the time, the reason a player can't get through the "Click this button to undock and then go here and click this button to board your rookie ship" tutorial or the career agents is because they just haven't read what CCP is telling them to do. Yes, the font is small. Yes, there's a lot of it. But it does explain to you what high sec and low sec and null sec mean and it tells you that even though NPCs won't shoot at your pod, other players will. The tutorial even warns you about the potential dangers of autopiloting. (I'm pretty sure I could have my entire apartment mopped, dusted, and vacuumed in the amount of time it took me to get to Arnon from Uitra, but I'm not autopiloting.)
I don't think it felt like being pranked at all. I think CCP is making an honest effort to make the game as accessible as possible to new players, but new players can't just skim the mission journals. You're right that the game really isn't that difficult, but I there is a complexity to it that doesn't exist in other MMOs.
I'm sure the tutorials can be improved upon, but I'm not sure how. So far, all I know is that I'm enjoying my very early PvE experiences in EVE, and I know that when it comes to a lot of things, I still have a lot to learn. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
18632
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 16:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
Bring back Aura!
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
7991
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 16:18:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tippia wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I can't actually figure out what this thread is supposed to be about. GÇ£PvE-based NPE does not prepare players for a PvP-centric universeGÇ¥. Awesome. I'm sleep deprived and didn't bother reading the wall of text that is the first post. Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |

Major Xadi
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
30
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Posted - 2013.12.30 16:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I can't actually figure out what this thread is supposed to be about.
It's a buff the tutorials thread. Because the OP contends the tutorials are a joke which don't fully prepare new players for the harshness of EvE. The player in her link apparently didn't realize that starting a corp while new isn't a good idea cause wardecs. But the tuts are not a prank . I can agree that maybe some more information could be incorporated minimizing experiences such as the one in the linked thread, but mistakes are usually the best teachers, providing perspective no tutorial could. Having gained that perspective as well as some wisdom from veteran players on this forum, you have to decide if this game is your cup of tea. If it's not, don't complain on this forum. Just find another game.
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Ioci
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
486
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Posted - 2013.12.30 16:40:00 -
[18] - Quote
Be fair. The game is ten years old. You really thought there was going to be some innovative bullshit to make it new person friendly?
Any more than trying to convince someone they can be on par with an 8 year WoW vet or LotRO vet in just a few short months all because the game fast trackes 2% of the leveling experience?
You want a solid new player experience, wait for ESO or EQNext or something. R.I.P. Vile Rat |

Bel Tika
Dirty Rotten Scoundrel's
191
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Posted - 2013.12.30 16:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
Im pretty new aswell tbh an in all honesty im starting to bend towards "CCP dont have a clue what they want to do"
I luv the game an i will be sticking with it but the more i play the more it just seems well messed up.
Im wrong ofc i always am lol it just seems sometimes that they have had numerous ppl in charge at different times and they all had different visions of what the game should be and what im experiencing now is the result of that |

Haedonism Bot
Revolutionary Front
704
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 17:52:00 -
[20] - Quote
I actually think that CCP has done ok with the NPE lately. It is true that the tutorials give one a false impression that this is a PVE game, and when taken alone that is bad. The recent New Player's Guide that CCP put out, though, is quite good. I haven't been on any of these new CCP led training fleets yet, but the feedback I have seen from them has been positive. Taken together, these things provide a lot of resources for newbies who are willing to go out and participate.
CCP can't do everything for you, at some point you need to figure out things for yourself. And there will always be people coming into the game who can't see past the end of their noses and think they are playing WoW in Space until somebody comes along and enlightens them.
As for the E-Uni thing, if CCP tried to do what E-Uni does, it would be too much of an intrusion into the sandbox. Eve Uni isn't like an extension of the tutorials, it is a large and fairly well run player corporation for new players who want to learn and older players who like to help them. everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com |

Dead Shade
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 18:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
You can't have EVE's enormous amount of content and expect a comprehensive tutorial. If you did have a tutorial covering everything that could possibly happen to you when you undock, new player retention would likely be a hundred times worse. Imagine listening to Aura's inane rambling for a few weeks every time you log in.
"Oh look, you've opened the "People and Places" window, let's spend an hour or twenty going over every conceivable use. Hey! You've opened the map window! Let's analyze EVERY filter in the star system view!"
The bare bones tutorial isn't a prank or a problem. Adding much more would make it an even longer tedious mess. This is a huge sandbox game, not a cell phone game you learn in 2 seconds.
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stoicfaux
3753
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Posted - 2013.12.30 18:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
Dead Shade wrote:You can't have EVE's enormous amount of content and expect a comprehensive tutorial. If you did have a tutorial covering everything that could possibly happen to you when you undock, new player retention would likely be a hundred times worse. Imagine listening to Aura's inane rambling for a few weeks every time you log in.
"Oh look, you've opened the "People and Places" window, let's spend an hour or twenty going over every conceivable use. Hey! You've opened the map window! Let's analyze EVERY filter in the star system view!"
The bare bones tutorial isn't a prank or a problem. Adding much more would make it an even longer tedious mess. This is a huge sandbox game, not a cell phone game you learn in 2 seconds.
That's not the problem. The problem is that the NPE doesn't help most new users make the extreme paradigm shift that EVE represents. The question to ask is: "Does the NPE help WoW players make the transition to the heavily PvP environment that is EVE?" Generally speaking, the answer is "no," plus the NPE tends to instead promote a PvE paradigm, which makes the surprise high-sec PvP ********* really surprising, a surprise compounded by the cacti of obtuse aggression, scamming, and game mechanics.
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Captain Stupid
Citalopram Appreciation Society
74
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Posted - 2013.12.30 18:28:00 -
[23] - Quote
Who are CPP ?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
18639
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 18:32:00 -
[24] - Quote
Captain Stupid wrote:Who are CPP ? Bjarne Stroustrup's secret p-space alliance. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

Dead Shade
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 18:32:00 -
[25] - Quote
I do agree that the NPE could be tweaked some. Honestly maybe a big disclaimer saying that by undocking you consent to PVP interaction would be a good addition. At the very least it'd help with the confusion. |

Malcolm Shinhwa
Bad Touches
986
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 18:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:Issue is: CCP can't make a tutorial that revolves around Player interaction. As you can't script it into a tutorial how a player reacts to another player.
And honestly the last time CCP tried to lead newbies into some player interaction lead to a slaughter on the Doril gate by those who need no such tutorial.
You can look at Eve as a game, learn the rules and accept what comes as part of the learning process. Or you can look at Eve as some sort of actual life and rage anytime something bad happens that you deem unfair. The first group are probably the players more likely to stay for the long term. They are also the ones more likely to be doing the unfair to the second group. I know violence isn't the answer. I got it wrong on purpose. |

I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
951
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 18:41:00 -
[27] - Quote
Magna Mortem wrote:If you want an honest introduction then you should join those who fight and not those who complain, whine and run away.
What noise do cows make when they are mating? |

Magna Mortem
the noise a cow makes while mating
151
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 19:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
I Love Boobies wrote:Magna Mortem wrote:If you want an honest introduction then you should join those who fight and not those who complain, whine and run away. What noise do cows make when they are mating? Moo. |

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6003
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 19:14:00 -
[29] - Quote
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:J'Poll wrote:Issue is: CCP can't make a tutorial that revolves around Player interaction. As you can't script it into a tutorial how a player reacts to another player. And honestly the last time CCP tried to lead newbies into some player interaction lead to a slaughter on the Doril gate by those who need no such tutorial. You can look at Eve as a game, learn the rules and accept what comes as part of the learning process. Or you can look at Eve as some sort of actual life and rage anytime something bad happens that you deem unfair. The first group are probably the players more likely to stay for the long term. They are also the ones more likely to be doing the unfair to the second group. So since it is unfair, perhaps some intervention is necessary ... ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over. |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
3890

|
Posted - 2013.12.30 20:18:00 -
[30] - Quote
Some spam was removed from this thread. Please stay on topic and polite, thank you. CCP Phantom - Senior Community Representative - Volunteer Manager |
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