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Drutort	Posted - 2003.09.09 05:18:00 - [1] Edited by: Drutort on 12/09/2003 20:34:14 If there is a slightest chance based on the game etc... that decreasing the graphics can reduce the lag for each client... then i would love to see settings like many other games have were you can tone down the graphics so low that things just look like a blur... not fun but if you have to go into a battle and dont want to watch it frame by frame... then i would take that option then when i would be flying normally i would just turn it back to say ultra high... my question to CCP/DEV's is if this is possible please give us these options and optimize the code etc to let us do this... since nobody but CCP/DEV's know how the game engine/graphics work etc they can pretty much only respond to this... all those that would love to have this reply ------------update--------- LOL i just thought about it... but why dont we have an option for our internet connections?? like so many other games... that would help the game and server know how much data to be sending and not create those massive lag spikes durning load time etc... because based on the connection it would load/send data evenly throughout. support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
The Wretch	Posted - 2003.09.09 05:22:00 - [2] Just say no to ship and drone rendering and yes to tracking cursors only . The Wretch Cyberdyne Systems CEO
Drutort	Posted - 2003.09.09 05:23:00 - [3] no you konw how other game just tone down the graphics by so much etc... less poly's and other stuff less stuff to render and load but you still have all the same exact objects etc... im sure this could also be worked more for hte drones esp... support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Veruna Caseti	Posted - 2003.09.09 07:20:00 - [4] EVE already has options to reduce the load on your graphics card. If the ability to "reduce" the graphics is not already in place, adding it would probably not be as simple as you seem to assume. Also The Wretch's idea is a perfect solution. Turn off ship/drone loading and the lag is gone. Veruna Caseti Ishukone
Saladin	Posted - 2003.09.09 09:55:00 - [5] Quote: Just say no to ship and drone rendering and yes to tracking cursors only . Where do you find the option to do this? --------------------------- (c) Copyright Saladin, 2005. Any editing of this post by a third party will be in violation United States Internet Copyright law 46525 of 2003.
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.09.09 10:30:00 - [6] Edited by: Discorporation on 09/09/2003 10:44:54 I don't think it's the graphics. I think it's all the information regarding position, loadout and state-changes of objects in space O.o [Heterocephalus glaber]
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.09.09 10:42:00 - [7] All graphics should already on your PC, so turning them off should decrease lag. Worth a try, but I don't think it will improve things. free speech not allowed here
Klydor	Posted - 2003.09.09 11:16:00 - [8] Edited by: Klydor on 09/09/2003 11:16:40 Graphics have nothing to do with lag. Turning them to low may result in your machine performing better fps wise but thats about it. The lag is caused by sending information between client and server. No matter how good a polygon crunching machine you have, you'll still experience the lag. However on another note, I'd like to see ultra low graphic options etc for times like large fleet battles or large mining ops where many peoples machines grind to a few fps. Although saying that, I've no idea what the client/server are sending or doing so I could be wrong :P but in general graphics has nothing to do with lag.
tigress	Posted - 2003.09.09 11:32:00 - [9] This has nothing to do with the client I'm afraid.. It has all to do with the server and the ping to the server. Not bandwidth - but speed of data... For example. pull up ye old packets window (alt+ctrl+f12). And check it. it sends virtually NOTHING. Not even when going to a place with tons of ppl.. it has nothing to do with the data transmitted, it has to do with the server connection probably. The way to fix this is not to make stuff lighter and faster to load - its to make ong loadingtimes OK. Probably make the client/server say: "ok, now I'm finished - ill wait for you client/server". And when both finished - boom youre visible/targettable and you see the ppl there. --
Indigo Seqi	Posted - 2003.09.09 11:58:00 - [10] I have been sending them tons of feedback reports asking for a low polygon/low texture mode in EVE, haven't seen anything come back to me.
Leliana	Posted - 2003.09.09 12:01:00 - [11] come on.. you know you want a WAP version :D
Intruders	Posted - 2003.09.09 12:55:00 - [12] I dont know if the wonder code they introduced for not having as much lag as with other MMOG and can keep up to 50.000 - 100.000 players online in same server has not been proved to be a total failure by now. If they know their servers capacity, yet they implement designs that force us to fight with lag even when mining, 8xdrones and x7 or x8 mining lasers acting as different data output/input modules for each player, when we multiply this by 6 and more then there is lag hell. I dont know what is really going on, they seem they designed this game for relying in multiple connections with 1 client keeping every connection in the lowest amount of data transfer/receive available, yet when these circumstances are met, lag hits the roof. Is it a low server capacity issue? Is it a protocol failure? Every man lives..but not every man dies! My sig sux
Ezra	Posted - 2003.09.09 13:59:00 - [13] Edited by: Ezra on 09/09/2003 13:59:05 Quote: Edited by: Discorporation on 09/09/2003 10:44:54 I don't think it's the graphics. I think it's all the information regarding position, loadout and state-changes of objects in space O.o Yup. control-alt-F12 Watch the MASSIVE spike in bandwidth used that coincides with a loadlag freezeup. The solution would to be reduce the peaks by smoothing out that peak - Start sending the data once a ship enters warp (The ship is committed to arriving at its destination at this point, so there is no way to abuse this "early" data). The "warping" period is usually accompanied by virtually zero bandwidth - If the data spike at the end were distributed over the entire time period of warp, there would be no loadlag whatsoever. I have noticed that in some situations (10 battleships with 8 drones each near a station), framelag can begin to come into play, but framelag is nowhere near the problem that load-lag is. If you think EVE's framelag in such a situation is bad, try DAoC. Texture thrashing ahoy! (Since drones of a given type all use the same model/texture, they don't stress a video card nearly as much as 200 uniquely dressed players in a MMOG such as EQ or DAoC) ------------ Ezra Cornell pe0n, Xanadu Corporation
Drutort	Posted - 2003.09.09 18:08:00 - [14] Quote: Edited by: Discorporation on 09/09/2003 10:44:54 I don't think it's the graphics. I think it's all the information regarding position, loadout and state-changes of objects in space O.o hmm load times is one thing... but when you have 20 ships and + whatever number of drones... there is nothing LOADING why do you think it works like a fram show? hmm ya its the graphics at work then support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.09.09 18:17:00 - [15] Quote: hmm load times is one thing... but when you have 20 ships and + whatever number of drones... there is nothing LOADING why do you think it works like a fram show? hmm ya its the graphics at work then The server needs to send your client the amount of drones, what the drones position is in regards to objecs, the drones' loadouts, the ships that are there, what their loadout is, what their state is, what their position is in relation to stationary objects, hat they are currently doing, and in what direction, what your ship's position is in relation to these factors, etc. The client appling textures, shading, etc is nothing compared to the information the server needs to update it with. [Heterocephalus glaber]
Drutort	Posted - 2003.09.09 18:19:00 - [16] Quote: Edited by: Ezra on 09/09/2003 13:59:05 Quote: Edited by: Discorporation on 09/09/2003 10:44:54 I don't think it's the graphics. I think it's all the information regarding position, loadout and state-changes of objects in space O.o Yup. control-alt-F12 Watch the MASSIVE spike in bandwidth used that coincides with a loadlag freezeup. The solution would to be reduce the peaks by smoothing out that peak - Start sending the data once a ship enters warp (The ship is committed to arriving at its destination at this point, so there is no way to abuse this "early" data). The "warping" period is usually accompanied by virtually zero bandwidth - If the data spike at the end were distributed over the entire time period of warp, there would be no loadlag whatsoever. I have noticed that in some situations (10 battleships with 8 drones each near a station), framelag can begin to come into play, but framelag is nowhere near the problem that load-lag is. If you think EVE's framelag in such a situation is bad, try DAoC. Texture thrashing ahoy! (Since drones of a given type all use the same model/texture, they don't stress a video card nearly as much as 200 uniquely dressed players in a MMOG such as EQ or DAoC) see my ideas of having time stamps and doing a calc of each clients ability... and then using some minimal or avg processing power so that the system will not try to do all those at one point is the way to go... dont as me how this can be done that is really up to the dev's i know that games can be made right and do it so that the load time is spread out esp if you are warping in or jumping in you can tell the client and server to do the loading earlier and maybe a BIT longer but it would be very smooth when its done and not noticeable... which would negate the hole loading time... I have to disagree about the drones or char's being different, regardless of if you got them all unique or not... the video card still has to render all those poly's and stuff and the textures would be same or maybe shared but thats about it... having an ultra low setting would be kick ass... I read about other games using special tech that does things auto that when objects are very very far away they do not need to have the same poly/texture detail/amount as an object that is in the full view of your screen.. thus making a lot of objects work very smooth, because 80% of those objects would be FAR FAR out and you do not need to RENDER them the same as say 5 or 6 objects that are right by you... I DO NOT THINK THIS GAME HAS THAT why? because you can use the drone camera to zoom out to the max and look at a ship in full detail... but i could be wrong about it... at least i dont see the dev's stating any tech like that and we know very very little about the graphics engine and the hole mechanics of EVE know VERY VERY LITTLE... like what is it based on or derived on? its all made by DEV"s? well thats a little too bad because i bet they had to reinvent the wheel a number of times... which i see it being really dumb then just using what others have excelled in and using there parts of code and really then going and optimizing other areas of your own game code. support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.09.09 18:33:00 - [17] Drutort Yes, your client has to load all the graphics and textures, etc, then display them. I don't dispute that, and it would be responsible for frame-lag. However, the bandwidth-spike you get when you have to load the environment at the warp-in point is in my opinion the cause of the lag problem. [Heterocephalus glaber]
Drutort	Posted - 2003.09.09 18:36:00 - [18] Quote: Drutort Yes, your client has to load all the graphics and textures, etc, then display them. I don't dispute that, and it would be responsible for frame-lag. However, the bandwidth-spike you get when you have to load the environment at the warp-in point is in my opinion the cause of the lag problem. yes and since we are paying monthly fee i demand US BROADBAND PEOPLE get a bit MORE BANDWITH... so we dont lag... its only fair all other games have it what at about 8-10k/s bandwidth and i have no clue what EVE has but i think its very little and its little because the server only sends you very little or is limited/caped to all players and doesnt seem to care what connection you got? support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.09.09 18:41:00 - [19] Quote: yes and since we are paying monthly fee i demand US BROADBAND PEOPLE get a bit MORE BANDWITH... so we dont lag... Talk to your provider :P Quote: its only fair all other games have it what at about 8-10k/s bandwidth and i have no clue what EVE has but i think its very little and its little because the server only sends you very little or is limited/caped to all players and doesnt seem to care what connection you got? That's true and goes or even too (what was it, 3 k/b?). However when you warp in there is a huge netw spike which causes your lag, etc. :) [Heterocephalus glaber]
Drutort	Posted - 2003.09.09 19:11:00 - [20] Quote: Quote: yes and since we are paying monthly fee i demand US BROADBAND PEOPLE get a bit MORE BANDWITH... so we dont lag... Talk to your provider :P Quote: its only fair all other games have it what at about 8-10k/s bandwidth and i have no clue what EVE has but i think its very little and its little because the server only sends you very little or is limited/caped to all players and doesnt seem to care what connection you got? That's true and goes or even too (what was it, 3 k/b?). However when you warp in there is a huge netw spike which causes your lag, etc. :) when i said i demand... i mean from CCP so they change the game so we get more bandwidth... from server and to server i have good enough connection up wards from 300k-450k/s support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Ezra	Posted - 2003.09.09 19:55:00 - [21] Edited by: Ezra on 09/09/2003 20:00:49 Quote: Quote: Drutort Yes, your client has to load all the graphics and textures, etc, then display them. I don't dispute that, and it would be responsible for frame-lag. However, the bandwidth-spike you get when you have to load the environment at the warp-in point is in my opinion the cause of the lag problem. yes and since we are paying monthly fee i demand US BROADBAND PEOPLE get a bit MORE BANDWITH... so we dont lag... its only fair all other games have it what at about 8-10k/s bandwidth and i have no clue what EVE has but i think its very little and its little because the server only sends you very little or is limited/caped to all players and doesnt seem to care what connection you got? It's a per-user connection bandwidth limit. (Just like the sv_maxrate variable for Quake3 servers.) EVE's connection caps out at FAR below my cable modem's downstream. Hence, at least in this case U.S. players are not at much of a disadvantage. We wouldn't need more bandwidth if it were managed more properly. In 90% of all situations, EVE barely uses enough bandwidth to saturate a 14.4 connection. While warping, it uses practically nothing. At the end of warp, it spikes MASSIVELY. Spreading that spike over the duration of warp would massively reduce peak bandwidth needed. As to framelag and texture thrashing - objects with unique textures present an additional stress on the video card beyond that needed for identical objects with the same texture (which can be shared in video memory). As such, framerate due to large numbers of objects will drop gracefully as the number of objects increases, if the objects don't use additional texture memory due to shared textures. If all those objects have unique textures, the video card starts having to swap textures in/out of its onboard memory once that memory is used up, which appears to be a "brick wall" beyond which framerate drops drastically with little additional stress. (A difference of only 20 players can mean the difference between smooth frames and 1 fps in DAoC - 150ish players in one place is about the magic number to exceed the 128M of video memory on even the best video cards.) The phenomenon is called texture thrashing, and is very similar to swap thrashing to the hard drive when your system runs out of RAM. I have yet to see EVE texture thrash though. In large-scale situations, yes, EVE does show a little bit of framelag, but it's insignificant compared to the multi-second delays of loadlag. ------------ Ezra Cornell pe0n, Xanadu Corporation
Nerul	Posted - 2003.09.09 20:46:00 - [22] If you use a geforce card, you can use the geforce tweak utility to make it render much faster. You can get it here.
SlightlyMad	Posted - 2003.09.09 21:45:00 - [23] I also share the view that this is an info aspect. Possibly blamed on the optimised nature of python itself. Most of the main textures is already loaded. Rendering and updating goes wickedly fast when you are alone. It should lag then as well. Its all the info going back and forth from the clients that is the problem. * -"You know, we play the "good guys" right? We kill pirates, griefers, retards and general subversive elements in the EVE-Community. To the rest, we are friendly and always prepared to help out. Peo
Drutort	Posted - 2003.09.09 22:34:00 - [24] Quote: If you use a geforce card, you can use the geforce tweak utility to make it render much faster. You can get it here. i have been that will not make this game run any faster it just makes your over all system better but that is a small % of a boost... thats like saying go buy a 9800 or 5900 hehe... support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Drutort	Posted - 2003.09.12 20:32:00 - [25] Quote: I also share the view that this is an info aspect. Possibly blamed on the optimised nature of python itself. Most of the main textures is already loaded. Rendering and updating goes wickedly fast when you are alone. It should lag then as well. Its all the info going back and forth from the clients that is the problem. well i havnt had any info on that programming language, but if you know could you expand on your thoughts a bit? I also think though over all that they need to keep sending data through out the game more, and when you start your warp etc... that the game should be starting to cache things, and start loading textures and maybe even objects... but doing it slowly so that while your in warp you wouldnt notice any major lag... and when you get to the location you would have at most few sec of lag if that section is filled with players/drones etc that would be so nice and its about the only annoying thing about this game... the fact that you die due to lag/loading is really a turn off for people to go into combat etc... also its up to the dev's to optimize the game code so that you could handle say up to 100 players.... cause right now its a fram show at 20-40 players with there drones etc... support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Cauhl	Posted - 2003.09.12 21:11:00 - [26] I'm no tech guru so I think I missed a few things... When u come out of warp the server sends positions, loadouts etc of every object and ppl want it to send the information over time while you warp instead correct? Now when you're there you are still lagging if there's alot of ppl there, is this also caused by a low bandwith/player or is it only on your machine?
Drutort	Posted - 2003.09.12 22:37:00 - [27] Quote: I'm no tech guru so I think I missed a few things... When u come out of warp the server sends positions, loadouts etc of every object and ppl want it to send the information over time while you warp instead correct? Now when you're there you are still lagging if there's alot of ppl there, is this also caused by a low bandwith/player or is it only on your machine? all the things you said are factors thats why i ask CCP to have option to town down the graphics and to set our bandwith, so that the server can send right amount of data and not lag up your system and server for that burst time that is key... and also it sure has to do with the server behing able to handle X amount of players + drones and any other objects... so its also a matter of the server/client code to be optimized so that it can work well with say best PC system and best connection you should be able to manage well X players plus drones and other objects... so its quite a bit i think depended on the server and if the server cant handle it pretty much isnt updating and or sending the data well enough for your client... then the graphics matter too and the connection etc...!! so i hope this some what helps ppl see that a number of things CCP has to do to get things working why do i ask this? there is something known as best case and worst case... CCP needs to make it so the gap between those is smaller... meaning you have the best of everything and then the worst... with special settings you should be able to tune it down so that the worst case can manage in the game... support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Klydor	Posted - 2003.09.12 23:25:00 - [28] The issues are really: 1) Frame Per Second, where players are getting very low fps due to the number of objects on the screen. Perhaps a low poly or low res option would help with this. Aside from having to create lower poly models and lower res textures I imagine this is the easier of the two to fix. 2) Loading Protocol. Where the server is sending all the data to the client and any other players in the area. The moment the players receive the data the target appears on their screen and they can start shooting it. Despite the fact the server is still sending all their locations to the player who has just jumped in. Without knowing the exact protocol used though its hard to say how this could be improved on. In fact the rest of my comments are based on how I'm assuming its working, and since I'm 100% guessing now, it is likely this will not be a feasible solution :P As my connection is nowhere near maxed out during loading, I can only assume the server has a cap on the amount of data that can be transmitted each second to the client. With the effect that the campers receive the players data in the next update, whilst the player still has several further updates to receive before he finishes loading. So spreading out the data sending throughout the warp period would remove the loading screen, but wouldn't solve the problem. In effect the warping section would become the loading screen. It's duration depending on the amount of data your receiving. The player would appear on the campers screens whilst his screen still shows him warping. A possible solution would be to delay sending the data regarding the newly jumped in player to the campers in that earlier update, until the newly jumped in player has received their several updates detailing the campers position. I would assume this is how it is done, however it might not be. This would still involve the loading screen, but would mean the player does not appear on the campers screens until he has loaded. Well, at least until the server has sent all the data. So the problem now that could result in the same situation would be real "internet lag". In that the server finishes sending the data to player A. It then sends player A's position to the rest of the campers. If any of the packets sent to player A are lost and need to be resent, or take just short of the maxium time before an ACK is received, player A could still appear on the campers screens before loading. But the majority of the time the player should appear at the same time on all screens. However, since it took me only a few mins to think of that method of loading data, I'm sure that this would have occured to the devs as well. So I guess there is a lot more to the client/server loading protocol problem and that all our solutions will only be seeing a 1/4 of the problem.
Drutort	Posted - 2003.09.13 10:00:00 - [29] ya as you said above i like the idea of having the load time in warp... and then when the player finishes loading... it should be sent to hte campers that he is warping in and have the warping in effect show.. while trying to sync the player who alreay finished loading would only be a fraction of the data this will work... and now for the jump in points they should just do it that you warp in too that way you solve 2 problems with with 1 fix... having the player just apear in an area not moving and the area being campable is really stupid... also the ability to have the sheild booster and other modules on just like in warp but durning jump in point which would a ct just like warping in... because really the jump gate just spit you out some place etc... i think most of us have the idea here now... its just a matter of time until CCP and dev's start to do something support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Taliranowe Sarum	Posted - 2003.09.13 10:11:00 - [30] the huge fps lag in battles can be avoided if you zoom all the way into your ship, and look straight down or away from the battle. Use the scanner to target or the Threat monitor. Not like your gonna do alot of moving about in your battleship before the fights over. Read the Rules Of Conduct and Terms Of Usage "There is TONS of flaming, personal abuse and other bad behaviour on the In-game board and in In-game world. If everybody would just read the rules and follow them, the EVE world be a much nicer place to be in." Feel free to copy this Signature.

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