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Nelia Hawk
   |
Posted - 2003.09.09 09:44:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Nelia Hawk on 09/09/2003 09:49:16
after reading this in the new UPDATES/IN DEVELOPEMENT section of the PLAYER WEBSITE
 Quote:
Gang effects
Gang members can now gain bonuses from each other from their leadership skills. In general, the person with the best overall bonus from a leadership skill in a given location grants that bonus to all gang members in that location.
i have specialised in group tactics, that mean i have already the skills Escort Operations (+5% max speed per lvl to all in the gang WHEN LEADER) and Defencive Operations (+5% per lvl to shield recharge rate to all gangmembers WHEN LEADER)
but as i read that:
the person with the best overall bonus from a leadership skill in a given location grants that bonus to all gang members in that location.
that would mean you dont need to be leader to get your skill working!
i dont like that realy, i think JUST the LEADER of the gang should give the BONUS of his leadership skills (when he have them)
so i must be leader of the gang that my escort and defensive operations skills work ( like it should be even the skill description saies that.) ok it requires a bit organisation but i think when you are in a corp everyone knows who is used bast for a task!
i.e.
the one with the highest refinery lvls refines the ore
and the one with the highest leadership skill lvls leads the gangs!
i say it again i DONT LIKE it like its written atm in the develpoement screen!!!
it doesnt require a bit organisation or communication. all just joins the gang and the one with the higherst lvl makes the bonus even if hes not leader of the gang.
when you keep it like you wrote it, then every member could just train one skill and all share it:
-one traines escort ops to lvl5 and all get +25% speed
- an other player trains defencive ops and all get +25% faster shield recharge
and that would RUIN players who specialised in all leadership skills and wants to lead gangs!! (like i will do it)
they are LEADERSHIP skills so let them BE SKILLS WHEN LEADING!!!
dont change them to GANG skills....
plz 
----------------------------------
some of my ideas:
Very Long Balancing Suggestion !!!
and
My Ideas for EVE |
CT BadIronTree
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Posted - 2003.09.09 11:18:00 -
[2]
"i say it again i DONT LIKE it"
lol so? i like it you dont. get a life :P
j/k
there are biger problems in eve
you can always ask for leadersip from the player
============================================
Colossus Technologies
The first and oldest corp in eve!
BadIronTree Head of Production
CSM Chat Log September 25, 2003:
Fuhry> Some things we simply cannot test, and therefore we just put it on Tranq. cross our fingers and then get into panic mode.
---------------------------------------
playing (or beta testing)since Sat, 2 Nov 2002 16:06 (beta 5)
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.09.09 12:43:00 -
[3]
"when you keep it like you wrote it, then every member could just train one skill and all share it:"
... What, the leadership skills are available on the market now?..
(and if they still aren't, they should; pleeeeeeeease?.. o.o~)
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Ezra
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Posted - 2003.09.09 13:31:00 -
[4]
Quote:
"when you keep it like you wrote it, then every member could just train one skill and all share it:"
... What, the leadership skills are available on the market now?..
(and if they still aren't, they should; pleeeeeeeease?.. o.o~)
From looking at the "in development" section, the intent is to add the Leadership skills within a few patches. At the same time as currently implemented Leadership skills are added to the market, a number of new ones that previously didn't exist will be added.
------------
Ezra Cornell
pe0n, Xanadu Corporation |
Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2003.09.09 14:44:00 -
[5]
Nelia, quick thing for you to consider: overlapping effects.
In a squadron where your commander has Escort Ops 4 and you have Defensive Ops 5 and some other dude in the gang has some other skill... everyone contributes this way. Smart people will organize and specialize so there is minimal duplication between pilots, and any given battle group has an expert for every bonus.
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.09.09 15:14:00 -
[6]
I know I'm going to hate the smart bugger using the speed enhancing skill in an Oracle Rifter assault squad :(
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Nelia Hawk
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Posted - 2003.09.10 11:32:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Nelia Hawk on 10/09/2003 11:37:16
i just say they should keep whats written in the skill description:
gives.... blabla.... WHEN LEADER
leadership skills should show how good you are in LEADING a gang
its the same with the corp management skills:
the skills of the CEO are used for the corp not the skills of the director when he has a lvl more in one of the skills!
----------------------------------
some of my ideas:
Very Long Balancing Suggestion !!!
and
My Ideas for EVE |
Bane Sellante
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Posted - 2003.09.10 13:25:00 -
[8]
From reading your post Nelia it just seems to me that you want to be in charge of any gang you are in, and it seems to me that rather than justifying this through actual real leadership skills you are trying to justify it with a load of skills you have afk trained in a game.
I think that funcom should change the description at the sametime as they make the other changes.
-----------------------
Cold Fusion Inc. Website |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.10 14:00:00 -
[9]
Quote:
From reading your post Nelia it just seems to me that you want to be in charge of any gang you are in, and it seems to me that rather than justifying this through actual real leadership skills you are trying to justify it with a load of skills you have afk trained in a game.
I think that funcom should change the description at the sametime as they make the other changes.
Pretty much agree except for one thing. These guys are from Iceland, not Norway 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Alkad Mzu
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Posted - 2003.09.10 14:04:00 -
[10]
Quote:
I know I'm going to hate the smart bugger using the speed enhancing skill in an Oracle Rifter assault squad :(
Cu there, disco :)
________________________________________________
Head of Public Relations, Fountain Alliance |
Ezra
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Posted - 2003.09.10 14:04:00 -
[11]
Quote:
I know I'm going to hate the smart bugger using the speed enhancing skill in an Oracle Rifter assault squad :(
ouch.
Going to be lethal for Kestrel kamikaze runs too.
------------
Ezra Cornell
pe0n, Xanadu Corporation |
Klydor
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Posted - 2003.09.10 15:07:00 -
[12]
Which ever way they decide its going to work, so long as the SKILLS actually work as their descriptions state I'm happy :)
But if it states only leader, then works with anyone, then something needs to change. Prob the skill description :P
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Redundancy
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Posted - 2003.09.10 15:32:00 -
[13]
I think that in real life, the ability for a group to take advantage of the strengths of its members depends on the quality of its commanders.
I would prefer a slightly more complicated system, where the max skills of the non-leader members of the group are capped to the level of the gang leaders leadership skill.
It makes sense, as well as encouraging people to train up as gang leaders / commanders.
If a gang has a weak leader, they all suffer for it. A strong and able leader allows the skills and experience of the individuals he/she commands to benefit the entire group.
Redundancy |
Quantum Ghost
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Posted - 2003.09.10 16:40:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Quantum Ghost on 10/09/2003 16:40:36
 Opps, wrong thread
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Ezra
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Posted - 2003.09.10 17:15:00 -
[15]
Quote:
I think that in real life, the ability for a group to take advantage of the strengths of its members depends on the quality of its commanders.
I would prefer a slightly more complicated system, where the max skills of the non-leader members of the group are capped to the level of the gang leaders leadership skill.
It makes sense, as well as encouraging people to train up as gang leaders / commanders.
If a gang has a weak leader, they all suffer for it. A strong and able leader allows the skills and experience of the individuals he/she commands to benefit the entire group.
Interesting proposal.
I like it.
Unless these new skills have Leadership 5 as a prereq (a sensible thing to do considering their power), in which case that's irrelevant.
------------
Ezra Cornell
pe0n, Xanadu Corporation |
Fartracker
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Posted - 2003.09.10 21:50:00 -
[16]
I get the feeling he doesn't like the idea that somebody in the gang might have BETTER skills and thus those would be used instead of his.
ie - 'WHAAAAAAAAAA!'
eat my shorts
Eat My Shorts! |
Nelia Hawk
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Posted - 2003.09.11 06:17:00 -
[17]
Quote:
I get the feeling he doesn't like the idea that somebody in the gang might have BETTER skills and thus those would be used instead of his.
ie - 'WHAAAAAAAAAA!'
eat my shorts
when i would be leader and someone with better skills come to my gang then i would MAKE HIM LEADER!
Quote:
From reading your post Nelia it just seems to me that you want to be in charge of any gang you are in, and it seems to me that rather than justifying this through actual real leadership skills you are trying to justify it with a load of skills you have afk trained in a game.
btw i am not afk training (exept when i am offline) i am online alot and have alot to do 
and yes i would like to lead gangs because i want to specialize on that (like others specialize to be good miners)
Quote:
Unless these new skills have Leadership 5 as a prereq (a sensible thing to do considering their power), in which case that's irrelevant.
there are leadership skills that need LEADERSHIP 1-5 as a requiement!!
FLEET COMMANDER SKILL needs lvl5 leadership
(but dont ask me what the description is of that skill hehe i dont have it (atm). i just see it in the EVE ORACLE (F12- then write SKILL in the eve oracle- then LEADERSHIP SKILLS)
Quote:
I think that in real life, the ability for a group to take advantage of the strengths of its members depends on the quality of its commanders.
I would prefer a slightly more complicated system, where the max skills of the non-leader members of the group are capped to the level of the gang leaders leadership skill.
It makes sense, as well as encouraging people to train up as gang leaders / commanders.
If a gang has a weak leader, they all suffer for it. A strong and able leader allows the skills and experience of the individuals he/she commands to benefit the entire group.
Redundancy
Polaris Bug Hunter Lead
i hope that ccp thinks so too.
so i can specialize on leading
----------------------------------
some of my ideas:
Very Long Balancing Suggestion !!!
and
My Ideas for EVE |
Nelia Hawk
|
Posted - 2003.09.11 11:35:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Nelia Hawk on 11/09/2003 11:35:53
hmm think ccp dont think so atm lol
just read the CURRENT PATCHLOG (1201)
Quote:
1192
......
Gang effects should now get applied correctly.
A skill's gang effect bonus is now calculated from the gang member that has the highest level in that skill in the solar system, rather than the gang leader.
......
Traveler
Polaris Bug Hunter Lead
looks like its shared atm
but what i thought more of is:
that i dont need to be near the gang that the skill works.
i could sit next to a station with my high leadership skills and the rest of the gang is spaced in the whole system (2 at gates 2 in belts or so) and still recieve my bonus?!?
----------------------------------
some of my ideas:
Very Long Balancing Suggestion !!!
and
My Ideas for EVE |
Hippey
|
Posted - 2003.09.11 16:38:00 -
[19]
I like it the way it is now. As stated before, it means that you can mix and match people who have one skill really high (speed bonus) with someone else who has amother skill really high (shield recharge) and get the bonus of both, rather then forcing one person to spend MONTHS of training time to get all these bonuses to level 4-5 so the whole gang can MOOCH off him
This game needs MORE specilization distinction. The way it is now, a person can specialize on one bonus only, another person on another bonus, and together, be a lethal pair.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Redundancy
|
Posted - 2003.09.11 16:49:00 -
[20]
Hippey - you dont think that specialisation of leadership as part of the ability to take advantage of those skills is a worthwhile part of that?
Redundancy |
Discorporation
|
Posted - 2003.09.11 17:54:00 -
[21]
This:
Quote:
I like it the way it is now. As stated before, it means that you can mix and match people who have one skill really high (speed bonus) with someone else who has amother skill really high (shield recharge) and get the bonus of both, rather then forcing one person to spend MONTHS of training time to get all these bonuses to level 4-5 so the whole gang can MOOCH off him
Contradicts this:
Quote:
This game needs MORE specilization distinction. The way it is now, a person can specialize on one bonus only, another person on another bonus, and together, be a lethal pair.
If you want more specialisation, why not have your leader specialise in the leadership skills? A too diverse gang will be fiormed if everyone focuses on one skill only. Then, the leadership skills will be utterly useless as every gang out there will have one member with a lvl 4-5 specialty.
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Nelia Hawk
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Posted - 2003.09.11 20:52:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Nelia Hawk on 11/09/2003 21:18:32
(saying again that they perhaps change the patchlog and keep leadership skills real leadership skills)
but i spotted a possible EXPLOIT!!!
when i form a gang with someone and he leaves the gang later. do I as leader do STILL get a i.e. speed bonus when i am alone in a gang???
that could be exploited because i could make a gang everytime to benifit of these bonuses.
change it that the bonuses the LEADER has with his leadership skills are JUST working when there are MORE THEN 1 person (just the leader) in the gang.
or even change it that the leader DONT get these bonuses JUST the members!!! (that would be even better). because the members gain bonuses because the leader can lead THEM well. (would be hard to lead hisself or so lol) the members concentrate to shoot and the leader concentrates to lead them.
(heres an idea for leading:
the leader can highlight one or some members of the gang and can command them to lock on the target the leader has as active lock atm.
then the members would get a little text or a visible symbol next to the enemy ship that shows them what ship the leader means and on that the member should concentrate.)
to sum it up:
the bonuses the leader of a gang has in the leadership skills are added to the members of the gang.(without leader)
Edit:
and PPPLLLEEEAAASSSEEE
let us (gang leaders lol) use GANG WARP everywhere where we can normaly WARP TO.
i mean especially the SCANNER and the LIST OF OBJECTS IN THE SYSTEM (up left the 5 little lines left of the system name)
because that would help alot in fighting pirates in belts, because atm we can just gangwarp to these symbols on the screen and sometimes i cant see any belts on the screen
(an option to GANG JUMP at gates (after you REGROUPED all members to you next to the gate) would be nice too. and that all gang members come out at the SAME location in the next system!!! that the leader can set a gangwarp to the next gate.(atm it happenes often that one member comes out at a different position after gate jumping. and that the leader has to wait untill the spaced member warped to him untill the leader can set the new gangwarp to the next gate.))
(think i would want to much when i would say now too to allow us to use a GANG AUTOPILOT where all members get the same waypoints as the leader has set and all gangwarp and gangjump automatically. when we can gang jump then we dont need a gang autopilot too. (i would say)
(but i have posted most of this already in a different TOPIC in the IDEAS area)
THX
----------------------------------
some of my ideas:
Very Long Balancing Suggestion !!!
and
My Ideas for EVE |
Hippey
|
Posted - 2003.09.11 21:14:00 -
[23]
Well if the leader has to have all the skills, then he's not specializing on different types of gang bonuses, he's getting them all.
Now you could say he's specilizing in gang effects vs solo combat, but there isn't enough Leadership skills, and everyone will have the speed boost, and shield recharge boost trained to level 3 in 1.5 days. Then everyone is the same again, it's just been delayed by a day or two.
I'm fine with both, I just think the way it is now is better then only basing it on what the leader has, it just seems like a "mooch" thing.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Nelia Hawk
|
Posted - 2003.09.11 21:21:00 -
[24]
there are more leadership skills then just
leadership
escort operations
defence operations
there are i.e.
Fleet commander
battle tactics
recon operations
too
look in the EVE ORACLE ingame to see more skills
(F12 -> write SKILL in the eveoracle line and search -> then click on LEADERSHIP SKILLS)
----------------------------------
some of my ideas:
Very Long Balancing Suggestion !!!
and
My Ideas for EVE |
Hippey
|
Posted - 2003.09.11 21:25:00 -
[25]
Redundancies idea is a good one, just for the record.
I would just like for the leader to get something out of it, rather then that person having to spend significant time getting leadership and other skills up a few levels, then grouping with someone, and then everyone in that group, who is a better fighter then the leader because they didn't train leadership skills, get ALL the bonuses that the leader did. It seems... unfair.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Nelia Hawk
|
Posted - 2003.09.11 21:50:00 -
[26]
Quote:
leadership
escort operations
defence operations
Fleet commander
battle tactics
recon operations
missed ASSAULT FORMATIONS (or was it tactics? hmm)
@ hippey
these are leadershipskills to support your gangmembers that they can fight better.
not skills that YOU (leader) can fight better (for that are gunnery skills etc)
(btw i think we can continue this discussion forever lol)
----------------------------------
some of my ideas:
Very Long Balancing Suggestion !!!
and
My Ideas for EVE |
Nelia Hawk
|
Posted - 2003.09.11 21:52:00 -
[27]
Quote:
Hippey - you dont think that specialisation of leadership as part of the ability to take advantage of those skills is a worthwhile part of that?
@Redundancy
hmm is it not an exploit for you like i discribed it above?
----------------------------------
some of my ideas:
Very Long Balancing Suggestion !!!
and
My Ideas for EVE |
Hippey
|
Posted - 2003.09.11 22:12:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Hippey on 11/09/2003 22:12:45
My worry is just that, in players' eyes, as it is in mine, it won't be worth leveling all these leadership skills.
I wouldn't have much trouble leveling a few leadership skills to lead Oracle fighters. But I'm not too keen on spending a whole month of my playtime leveling few of these leadership skills to a significant level, and then have everyone that groups with me mooch my hard earned levels (this is a general statement of how I see it [how other people might see it], not saying Ora****es mooch things :D) and get FULL benefits, while THEY spent the last month training gunnery/engineering/etc.
It'd be a lot easier, and IMO more interesting, if several of the Chiefs in oracle trained 1-2 leadership skills to level 4/5, and then when we get together, along with other people, we all get the best of all skills. This is what I mean that the way it is now, will add more specilization. Ie. you'll have a speed leader, formations leader, shield recharge leaders, etc.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Nelia Hawk
|
Posted - 2003.09.11 22:27:00 -
[29]
Quote:
"IN PLAYERS EYES"
of course it would be "EASYER" to get ALL bonuses from ALL leadership skills when one trains this and the other that so that when they group up they get bonuses from ALL skills in a short training time (everyone just has to train ONE skill)
but i try NOT to write it so, how I could get the best of it.
when this sharing system will stay then RENAME the LEADERSHIP skills to GANG skills, because then they have NOTHING to do with how skilled you are in LEADING a gang.
(i just want to keep the LEADING aspect in the game. with gang skills the "only" benifit of having a gangleader it that he can invite/kick players (so that all gain max bonus) and that he can gangwarp ("when the gangmembers are too lazy. or whatever"))
----------------------------------
some of my ideas:
Very Long Balancing Suggestion !!!
and
My Ideas for EVE |
Redundancy
|
Posted - 2003.09.11 23:43:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Redundancy on 12/09/2003 00:01:51
Sorry Hippey, I'm not quite understanding you...
The current situation as described by that patch log is that there is effectively (skill wise) no real leader. Any member of the gang with "Escort Operations" at level 5 gives that level 5 bonus to all of the members of the gang.
Doing that removes some of the point of being a leader, as a specialisation, since anyone can lead and the same bonusses still apply.
gang skill effect level = max(gang members effect levels)
the alternative proposal that I'm making is
(a slightly more complicated, tabbed using quote boxes)
gang skill effect level =
max( Quote:
gang leader effect level,
min( Quote:
gang leader leadership level,
max(gang members effect levels)
)
)
Illustrative examples:
Quote:
Gang leader has leadership 1, gang member has "Convoy Operations" 2. Overall Gang-wide Convoy Operations bonus: 1
Quote:
Gang leader has leadership 1 and "Convoy Operations" 3. Overall Gang-wide Convoy Operations bonus: 3
Quote:
Gang leader has leadership 5, gang member has "Convoy Operations" 4. Overall Gang-wide Convoy Operations bonus: 4
This forumula allows a gang leader who is poor at his/her leadership skill to still apply a specialised gang effect skill bonus to the entire gang, but a gang leader who is a good leader to take advantage of the specialisations of all the gang members.
Another (the programmers are gonna hate me when they see this) complication that I would like to see, is that it *not* be possible to contribute a gang bonus when you're in a pod. In fact, I would prefer it if gang membership was tied to the ship that you were in when you got invited into the gang - preferably automatically swapping the gang leader to the gang member with the next highest leadership score (not always optimal, I know, perhaps a chain of command should be used instead, but again it's another complication) when the current leader gets podded.
This would allow enemies to guess at the gang leader and attempt to tactically invalidate the gang by taking them out, or concentrate on any of the members to reduce a specific bonus.
A complicated system, but I think it would allow more gameplay opertunities for combat tactics in groups. Of course, it would be abusable by having the leader sitting in the station, so another enhancement would naturally be to only allow gang skills to work in the 'local area' (perhaps a bubble of 1000 km centered on the current leader, not including station occupants)
As for the idea of 'mooching'... well, these *are* gang skills. Training up a gang skill is like training up a 'moochable' skill.
I think the programmer responsible for this may kill me tomorrow.
*runs away*
Redundancy |
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