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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2006.03.17 09:47:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Khaldorn Murino on 17/03/2006 09:48:18
Hi guys,
I like the tracking changes, and i kinda like the sound of the speed change because it turns it into a slightly hard-nosed tackler. However, the optimal bonus coupled with the tracking bonus made it a good arty platform when tackling.
Now, the speed bonus coupled with the increased tracking might keep this. I dunno :) Its all a bit too much to be hypothetical on, specially for my little brain. So what id like to ask Sir Tuxy, is when can we play on Sisi with it?
Because I just have no idea atm, and i think it might be kick arse 
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Rise.
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2006.03.17 09:53:00 -
[2]
If its not on SiSi now I'll have someone do an update today.
I had to lose either the optimal or tracking bonus, because the damage one is definitly not going it needs it. I figured that the tracking bonus would be the better one to keep since we're giving it more speed.
Tbh I'm not totally sure whether this is the right way to go. Its kind of a cross between an assault ship and an interceptor.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.17 09:55:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Tuxford
If its not on SiSi now I'll have someone do an update today.
I had to lose either the optimal or tracking bonus, because the damage one is definitly not going it needs it. I figured that the tracking bonus would be the better one to keep since we're giving it more speed.
Tbh I'm not totally sure whether this is the right way to go. Its kind of a cross between an assault ship and an interceptor.
you could go all the way and give it an extra midslot too (or move a low to a mid) 
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2006.03.17 09:57:00 -
[4]
Yeah, it'll make it a bit wierd maybes. But to be honest, I know people who use it a tackler sometimes, so this may make it more useful.
Its also the balance of speed increase / tracking increase and how the two match off.
But it sounds interesting in any case, and id like to have a play. Sisi's been down for weeks i think btw.
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Rise.
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.03.17 09:58:00 -
[5]
More speed -> More tracking speed needed for the same dps on the ship.
Less optimal -> More tracking speed needed for the same dps on the ship.
Double hit on the already low damage output. Definately a change that's been badly neded.
--*=*=*--
Megadon
CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray |
Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2006.03.17 10:00:00 -
[6]
Oh, is it hassle to do what you did last time, and have a MkII version on the test server with the MkI version there also? or is that too much of a pain in the arse now?
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Rise.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.17 10:09:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Tuxford
If its not on SiSi now I'll have someone do an update today.
tux, you seem to be forgetting that SISI is currently closed for the china test :)
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2006.03.17 10:18:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Tuxford
If its not on SiSi now I'll have someone do an update today.
tux, you seem to be forgetting that SISI is currently closed for the china test :)
QFE x 1,000
MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer |
Scalor Valentis
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Posted - 2006.03.17 10:19:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Scalor Valentis on 17/03/2006 10:22:28
JAguar need either:
A) Lesser mass
B) 1 more medslot, to be the Intty hybrid 
C) more missile launchers and maybe boni for them? along with CPU.
Idd prefer to keep the tracking bonus, cause Ive always flyed jaguar with MWD and 250mms arty, and 250mm arty realy need all the tracking it can get. Ive flyed jag "interceptor style" for long time now.
And i can say that everything it does, Claw does beter.
And 280mms are not realy a valid option to use on jaguar.
WTB: The Correct DreadÖ |
MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2006.03.17 10:20:00 -
[10]
Quote:
Tbh I'm not totally sure whether this is the right way to go. Its kind of a cross between an assault ship and an interceptor.
MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer |
MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2006.03.17 10:21:00 -
[11]
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 17/03/2006 10:21:47
Originally by: Scalor Valentis
JAguar need either:
A) Lesser mass
B) 1 more medslot, to be the Intty hybrid
C) more missile launchers and maybe boni for them? along with CPU.
Idd prefer to keep the tracking bonus, cause Ive always flyed jaguar with MWD and 250mms arty, and 250mm arty rrealy need all the tracking it can get. Ive flyed jag "interceptor style" for long time now.
And i can say that everything it does, Claw does beter.
And 280mms are not realy a valid option to use on jaguar.
Why not 
I agree about an extra mid-slot though
MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer |
Scalor Valentis
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Posted - 2006.03.17 10:25:00 -
[12]
Originally by: MOOstradamus
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 17/03/2006 10:21:47
Originally by: Scalor Valentis
JAguar need either:
A) Lesser mass
B) 1 more medslot, to be the Intty hybrid
C) more missile launchers and maybe boni for them? along with CPU.
Idd prefer to keep the tracking bonus, cause Ive always flyed jaguar with MWD and 250mms arty, and 250mm arty rrealy need all the tracking it can get. Ive flyed jag "interceptor style" for long time now.
And i can say that everything it does, Claw does beter.
And 280mms are not realy a valid option to use on jaguar.
Why not
I agree about an extra mid-slot though
Well, they take to much to fit. Wolf work much beter with them, they trak poor. to small ammo cap, generaly blow goats in DPS department comparing to 150mm rails.
WTB: The Correct DreadÖ |
Adril Alatar
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Posted - 2006.03.17 10:51:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Scalor Valentis
Originally by: MOOstradamus
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 17/03/2006 10:21:47
Originally by: Scalor Valentis
JAguar need either:
A) Lesser mass
B) 1 more medslot, to be the Intty hybrid
C) more missile launchers and maybe boni for them? along with CPU.
Idd prefer to keep the tracking bonus, cause Ive always flyed jaguar with MWD and 250mms arty, and 250mm arty rrealy need all the tracking it can get. Ive flyed jag "interceptor style" for long time now.
And i can say that everything it does, Claw does beter.
And 280mms are not realy a valid option to use on jaguar.
Why not
I agree about an extra mid-slot though
Well, they take to much to fit. Wolf work much beter with them, they trak poor. to small ammo cap, generaly blow goats in DPS department comparing to 150mm rails.
you can fit a full rack of 280s T2, a standard missile launcher and a tank (armor or shield tank) on a Jaguar.... try to do this on a wolf...
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:00:00 -
[14]
Jaguar can use 280m's. I use them, allaince mate who is jaguar specialist uses them.
Arties need looking at, but thats another issue. Jaguar's a funny little ship, but I think these changes might be fun
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Rise.
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Captain Merkin
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:06:00 -
[15]
I wouldnt mind seeing an extra mid or a low swapped for a mid still..
Proving natural selection and Charles Darwin wrong since 1981.
The Kamikaze pilot
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Ysolde Xen
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:59:00 -
[16]
RE: ditching optimal in favour of velocity. Noooooo! 
That optimal range is it's second best bonus! It's what allows me to pwn with it as I'm able to stay very safely out of Web/Nos range whilst trying to get some DPS out of artillery with EMP rounds. The ship can use 280s very well because of it's tracking bonus at speed but drop it's ability to stay out of range of that which kills these things in 2 seconds flat will nerf my favourite little ship into the stoneage as you have to swap to crapper ammo which putst eh meagre DPS into laughable numbers 
Velocity is good but why not have that instead of the fake resistance bonus which the ship has already?
A yay to tracking bonus increases though - those will be great  And yay to potentially more CPU for the Jag.
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Just because you couldn't get a ship to do what you wanted doesn't mean it's a crap ship - it means you're a crap pilot of that ship.
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Ysolde Xen
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Posted - 2006.03.17 12:04:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Adril Alatar
Originally by: Scalor Valentis
Originally by: MOOstradamus
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 17/03/2006 10:21:47
Originally by: Scalor Valentis
JAguar need either:
A) Lesser mass
B) 1 more medslot, to be the Intty hybrid
C) more missile launchers and maybe boni for them? along with CPU.
Idd prefer to keep the tracking bonus, cause Ive always flyed jaguar with MWD and 250mms arty, and 250mm arty rrealy need all the tracking it can get. Ive flyed jag "interceptor style" for long time now.
And i can say that everything it does, Claw does beter.
And 280mms are not realy a valid option to use on jaguar.
Why not
I agree about an extra mid-slot though
Well, they take to much to fit. Wolf work much beter with them, they trak poor. to small ammo cap, generaly blow goats in DPS department comparing to 150mm rails.
you can fit a full rack of 280s T2, a standard missile launcher and a tank (armor or shield tank) on a Jaguar.... try to do this on a wolf...
What he said. Wolf is an AC monster - you'd gimp it way too much tryign to use 280s. I've seen some successful 250 setups but really, give it ACs and leave the Arties to the Jagaur.
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Just because you couldn't get a ship to do what you wanted doesn't mean it's a crap ship - it means you're a crap pilot of that ship.
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Shimpu
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Posted - 2006.03.17 12:15:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Tuxford
If its not on SiSi now I'll have someone do an update today.
I had to lose either the optimal or tracking bonus, because the damage one is definitly not going it needs it. I figured that the tracking bonus would be the better one to keep since we're giving it more speed.
Tbh I'm not totally sure whether this is the right way to go. Its kind of a cross between an assault ship and an interceptor.
That's what made me scream "yeeees!" when I read it. I love the Vaga and from a personal point of view I would love to see a ceptor/AF hybrid.
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.03.17 12:21:00 -
[19]
OK, if it's not going to get an extra slot (and nor are the other AFs that are 'missing' one), can I suggest:
Move a low -> midslot
Slight mass reduction
Slight cap increase (its cap is *awful*)
Slight CPU and Grid increase
The Jaguar really does suffer in a ridiculous number of departments - there's no problem it being an inty/af, since Minmatar have a lot of kooky ships, but it needs to be able to function in its kooky roles, not just do them for fun.
There used to be a sig here, but I got bored of it.
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Kai Lae
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Posted - 2006.03.17 12:52:00 -
[20]
The 10 slot frigates need the 11th slot (except ishkur)...it's not pure coincidence that the assaults that only have 10 also are the worst ones. In the case of the jaguar this means it has the same number of slots as it's T1 base, the rifter. This for a T2 ship is very unusual, and indicative of what it needs (another mid slot and the CPU to use it).
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Xantina
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Posted - 2006.03.17 13:00:00 -
[21]
If Jaguar is turned into some crossover between AF and Inty then I don't see why not using a Claw in the first place and buy some decend mods for the 5 millions isk I saved.
Better solution Imho:
Give Jaguar a small velocity boost (+15 or so)
Add a little cap and a little cpu
Keep the tracking bonus
Make one of the highs a turret/launcher slot in order to allow for a bigger variety of setups.
Remove 1 high and add 20m drone space
pretty please ? 
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Shidhe
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Posted - 2006.03.17 13:01:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Testy Mctest
OK, if it's not going to get an extra slot (and nor are the other AFs that are 'missing' one), can I suggest:
Move a low -> midslot
Slight mass reduction
Slight cap increase (its cap is *awful*)
Slight CPU and Grid increase
The Jaguar really does suffer in a ridiculous number of departments - there's no problem it being an inty/af, since Minmatar have a lot of kooky ships, but it needs to be able to function in its kooky roles, not just do them for fun.
Seconded - the Jaguar just doesn't have the versatility otherwise, and with precision missiles around speed isn't as big a bonus as it used to be.
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.03.17 13:16:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Kai Lae
The 10 slot frigates need the 11th slot (except ishkur)...it's not pure coincidence that the assaults that only have 10 also are the worst ones. In the case of the jaguar this means it has the same number of slots as it's T1 base, the rifter. This for a T2 ship is very unusual, and indicative of what it needs (another mid slot and the CPU to use it).
This is a situation we're all aware of. And it's not fair that the Ishkur doesn't lose an an extra slot, either. That's my real problem, not with having one less slot, as I think these ships are still usable, but the fact that the Gallente one is not balanced.
Originally by: Xantina
If Jaguar is turned into some crossover between AF and Inty then I don't see why not using a Claw in the first place and buy some decend mods for the 5 millions isk I saved.
Better solution Imho:
Give Jaguar a small velocity boost (+15 or so)
Add a little cap and a little cpu
Keep the tracking bonus
Make one of the highs a turret/launcher slot in order to allow for a bigger variety of setups.
Remove 1 high and add 20m drone space
pretty please ?
Your suggestions (drone space? what?) Don't make sense. And it isnt losing its tracking bonus.
The reasons to use it over a claw would be better fitting, more survivability, and the fact that really it'd be a different ship. Which would be fine reasons, imo. As long as it's buffed a little, as hybrid or not, it still can't fit enough to do any role well compared to, for example, a Wolf.
There used to be a sig here, but I got bored of it.
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Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.03.17 13:51:00 -
[24]
@TUX Please comment that you are atleast reading the logical comments about what 'could be better on the jag.'
We still don't feel it would be a good ship comparatively.
Originally by: "Oveur"
I don't react to threats any better than you do
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2006.03.17 13:52:00 -
[25]
I think it might :) But like I said, id like to play with it on Sisi, but Sisi has been down for a while :(
TBH guys, i think we should hold off the arguments til we played with it.
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Rise.
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Al Haquis
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Posted - 2006.03.17 14:53:00 -
[26]
Actuall im not to sure about the changes of taking the optimal bonus out and changing it with a speed bonus.
AF are not intersepters and these changes would force the Jaguar to be a tackling autocannon frig.
We have the crow so really dont see the need for this.
Solution to Pimp up the jaguar : higher it¦s base speed around 20m/s. gives it just that added speed every one is talking about, you would really feel the speed bump when using an Ab or a MWD.
Kids lets go radical , ok if we drop the optimal bonus (personaly i want to keep it , if it goes then good bye mr. sniping Jaguar :( ), why not just have 5% bonus to shield points per lvl , might want to please the All mighty Minnie gods and have it a 10% one.
That would make the Jaguar a fast and nifty gunboat and it would make it a perfict anty tackler support ship.
But one thing i know for sure is that the jaguar needs a CPU boost , so sad not beeing abile to fit a small missile launcher on my wolf and jagur becouse of lack of CPU.
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Council Member, Tahiri Warrior
Masuat'aa Forums
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Scalor Valentis
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Posted - 2006.03.17 15:04:00 -
[27]
ive been flying gistii MWD Jaguars for some time with 250mms, you cant have MWD and 280 with reasonable setup (fitting MAPC is out of question)
You need atleast 1 nanofibre to be able to do your stuff as a tackler
Gyro to do some damage, and Cap power relay to able to run stuff.
MWD, 20 km scrambler, and maybe webber if you fight inttys.
Thats said, it dont have any defencive power.
3 whooping medslots dont do enought justice to it.
Add more speed and 1 medslot, remove optimal boni if you have to, im fighting with my falloff anyway 
And i can have 3500m/s Gistii fitted monster that will enlarge my e-peen and make me want marry tuxymuxy.
WTB: The Correct DreadÖ |
OrangeAfroMan
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Posted - 2006.03.17 16:05:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Testy Mctest
OK, if it's not going to get an extra slot (and nor are the other AFs that are 'missing' one), can I suggest:
Move a low -> midslot
Slight mass reduction
Slight cap increase (its cap is *awful*)
Slight CPU and Grid increase
The Jaguar really does suffer in a ridiculous number of departments - there's no problem it being an inty/af, since Minmatar have a lot of kooky ships, but it needs to be able to function in its kooky roles, not just do them for fun.
There are times when I dont agree with you tbh, but this is EXACTLY what needs to be done in my very honest opinion. It NEEDS that extra mid, even if it means taking a low from it. Also it does need the mass reduction, cap boost (200, just like a rifter.. :/ ) and a bit more Grid, but definately more CPU
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Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2006.03.17 16:13:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Tuxford
Tbh I'm not totally sure whether this is the right way to go. Its kind of a cross between an assault ship and an interceptor.
Well, I for one love it, it's sort of like a mini-vagabond (the Vaga is also a weird ship, an ultra-fast cruiser). Unique and interesting ships are cool.
Now, it *may* be that it needs some small something in addition to the speed. I feel the same way about the Vengeance -- the damage bonus is good, but the ship still feels a bit lacking (especially since the cap charge bonus went away).
Everyone seems to agree that the Hawk changes are fine as is, but maybe the Jag and Vengeance need some small boost on top of the bonus change?
In any case, I think the extra speed is a very, very cool idea and love the idea of an "interceptor/tackler AF". It gives the Jag a unique role.
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OrangeAfroMan
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Posted - 2006.03.17 16:53:00 -
[30]
Edited by: OrangeAfroMan on 17/03/2006 16:58:06
Edited by: OrangeAfroMan on 17/03/2006 16:57:19
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Tuxford
Tbh I'm not totally sure whether this is the right way to go. Its kind of a cross between an assault ship and an interceptor.
Well, I for one love it, it's sort of like a mini-vagabond (the Vaga is also a weird ship, an ultra-fast cruiser). Unique and interesting ships are cool.
Now, it *may* be that it needs some small something in addition to the speed. I feel the same way about the Vengeance -- the damage bonus is good, but the ship still feels a bit lacking (especially since the cap charge bonus went away).
Everyone seems to agree that the Hawk changes are fine as is, but maybe the Jag and Vengeance need some small boost on top of the bonus change?
In any case, I think the extra speed is a very, very cool idea and love the idea of an "interceptor/tackler AF". It gives the Jag a unique role.
The thing is... without 4 mids it cant be a "mini-vagabond" because, as you may notice, the vaga has enough mids to tackle and get a decent tank.. however with the Jag, it has equally low mids and lows, 3 is just not sufficient for this ship to be anythiing more than an expensive Rifter.
I would sacrifice a low, or even the "utility/missle" high slot to get a mid slot added.
The Jaguar would be a very good ship with the mid added, btw. You would then have 2 slots for MWD and Disruptor, then 2 mids to fit a decent tank, so it will be doing what Assault frigs are meant for: Shooting and Tanking, but since the Jaguar is a little bit of an oddball it would have a little less shooting, but instead more speed and more tackling, making it a great all-around solo or even support ship, but as is now, 4/3/3 just doesnt give enough mids/lows for it to be proficient in anything.
Please for the love of goodness it needs a 4th Mid.
In fact.. 3/4/3 doesnt sound bad to me... dunno about others tho :o
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