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TomB
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Posted - 2003.09.10 00:02:00 -
[1]
Edited by: TomB on 11/09/2003 00:32:01
Just wanted to tell you this:
Drones
Drones have been increased in defences and abit in damage output, also they fly at longer range now from target so missiles shouldn't always take out all your drones.
Orbit
We have added alot of new options for orbiting, orbiting a target is now also much better for combat, ships now focus on keeping themselves at as fast speed as possible - this should need good testing.
Test this and comment all you like
Edit Note:
* Stacking should now be working 100%
* Smart Bombs lessened a little in fitting requirement, upped in damage
* Siege Launchers lessened more in fitting requirement
* Agility tuned a little for some ships with weird agility
We will also try to get agility and signatureRadius in the info window for ships
*TomB asks for applause, golf style*
"Where is my hat?" |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.09.10 00:10:00 -
[2]
Edited by: j0sephine on 10/09/2003 00:11:31
"We have added alot of new options for orbiting, orbiting a target is now also much better for combat, ships now focus on keeping themselves at as fast speed as possible - this should need good testing."
Yup, a great change; seems very reliable (ships actually manage to orbit at distance only slightly larger than the requested one) and they do it quite fast, too. Orbiting at ~1 k distance with AFBs on is still somewhat slow, probably because of ship agility limitations... but doing so at 2.5k radius allowed my frigate to move at 800 m/s while its max speed is something like 1.1 k/s... =)
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Entity
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Posted - 2003.09.10 00:20:00 -
[3]
Either it's a coincidence Chaos just went down, or I really nuked it while testing the orbiting with a very specific extreme ship loadout. I'll test again later :-).
Even if it was coincidence, the orbiting did not work with this particular setup anyway.
More to come...
 |
TomB
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Posted - 2003.09.10 00:22:00 -
[4]
CHAOS INCOMING
"Where is my hat?" |
Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.09.10 00:38:00 -
[5]
 Quote:
Drones
Drones have been increased in defences and abit in damage output, also they fly at longer range now from target so missiles shouldn't always take out all your drones.
woohoo :D they can use all the help they can get ;)
.
-----
Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Entity
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Posted - 2003.09.10 01:12:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Entity on 10/09/2003 01:20:42
Right. I got orbit to work once with my Dominix, after it settled at the range (2.5km) the ship began to to do something remotely resembling an orbit, in a very drunk fashion (around a stationary target), when I activated microwarp.
Stack some nanofibers to get an extremely bizarre demonstration of some weird behaviour this new code has, it'll just keep moving towards and away from the target in a straight line. I've been told this new orbit code was completely untested though so you're excused ;)
Edit: so the server nuke was coincidence... nice timing :)
Edit2: bug report tomorrow, getting some sleep now...
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.09.10 01:24:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 10/09/2003 01:26:39
Drones : a preliminary report
Positive :
1: The damage looks good on the drones now, as well as the toughness on the scout drones .. didnt notice the heavy drones being any tougher ?
2: I love the ability to rename drones, though since the names dissapear when scooped I can see it not getting used much
3: the extra distance drones keep looks good from an first look
4: my harvester was able to pull in 31m3 of veldspar instead of 30 .. though it should be 31.5m3 ? (veldspar being 0.1m3 per piece and 30 * 1.05% = 31.5) so it looks like the calculation needs to round slightly less :) glad it works at all though
Negative :
1: "Scoop to dronebay" appears to have gone missing :/ my thorax launched 3 wasps and a harvester and then was only able to scoop one wasp and a harvester before the cargo bay was full and I realized it was scooping to cargo .. looked on the list again .. yup no scoop to dronebay anymore
2: Drones in the drone control window appear to have no icon (just an [!] ) and fail to leave the window after being scooped .. makes it very hard to tell which are in space and which arent (and right clicking to give orders to a group will only show "select all" and "Invert selection" options if a single scooped drone is in the ones selected)
3: I lost a wasp to a blood collector (er 2.5k ?) in what felt like 30 seconds, it came under attack and failed to defend itself (seemed to die faster than on tranquility too)
Side note : I noticed the mammoths speed bonus is fixed, for which I am very gratefull 
.
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Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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QBall
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Posted - 2003.09.10 03:27:00 -
[8]
Orbit is pretty darn nice now, it works pretty good.
--------
"OMG IT'S TRAMMEL 2.0!!!!"
-QBall
And
QQ is QQ |
Mynobe Soletae
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Posted - 2003.09.10 04:47:00 -
[9]
May I suggest a square orbiting path for close range (<5 KM) orbiting? Don't know if it's possible, but with a square path, your ship would go a lot faster (in a straight line) about 90% of the time, with only 10% of the time spent turning.
Perhaps an option would be good, if it's possible. Circle Orbit, or Square Orbit, then -> x km. |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.09.10 08:46:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Jarjar on 10/09/2003 09:27:28
Edited by: Jarjar on 10/09/2003 09:01:16
Since I don't have the skill at chaos...
Do cruise missiles give 5% damage/level yet?
Edit: Oooh nice drones! Time to train heavy drones op. to level 3.
Edit 2: Oh no. I REALLY don't like that the NPC + icon doesn't disappear when you lock one 
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Perry
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Posted - 2003.09.10 09:54:00 -
[11]
TomB, you have to keep in mind that the Maller has no drone bay, and not much recources to power an Medium Smartbomb wich is now needed to kill the new Drones... Thorax has same Turrets, and now 8 "Medium Frigates" as escort!
Thorax vs Maller is now, well, "one sided"...
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ga'ia
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Posted - 2003.09.10 10:31:00 -
[12]
Quote:
*TomB asks for applause, golf style*
/me applause
__________________________________________________________ |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.09.10 10:36:00 -
[13]
Quote:
Edited by: Jarjar on 10/09/2003 09:27:28
Edited by: Jarjar on 10/09/2003 09:01:16
Since I don't have the skill at chaos...
Do cruise missiles give 5% damage/level yet?
Edit: Oooh nice drones! Time to train heavy drones op. to level 3.
Edit 2: Oh no. I REALLY don't like that the NPC + icon doesn't disappear when you lock one
cruise missle skill = STILL broken oh chaos.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
T'el'Alana Luathin
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Posted - 2003.09.10 10:36:00 -
[14]
I was wondering, is there a shortcut I can use to select all of my drones in space and let them attack the selected target?
I'd also love to be able to name the drones, and then be able to have a shortcut to launch a named drone out of the dronebay. I'd use the alt-button and name the drones after the button I'd push to launch 'em.
Then I'd charge into battle and roar "On Qupid, On Womit, On Elmer, On Rupert, On Timmy, On Yari, on Umber, on Ivan. and when I get the 9th and 10th drone, I'd call 'em Orville and Peter..
Then use the select-all-and-attack-the-selected-target shortcut.
doing it with the mouse takes way too long a time from other tasks while in combat.
T.L.
--
always look on the bright side of the cloning facility. |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.09.10 10:48:00 -
[15]
Great and all, but you have not answered if shield hardeners went from 70% to 40% + the stacking nerf, since this would nerf + nerf the hardeners.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
sensitive
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Posted - 2003.09.10 11:03:00 -
[16]
Quote:
Great and all, but you have not answered if shield hardeners went from 70% to 40% + the stacking nerf, since this would nerf + nerf the hardeners.
NOTE: The shield hardener has been nerfed from 70% (TQ) to 50% (Chaos), the display on the graphs is as TQ was 50%
As seen here => Nerf Thread
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Fritz Ionar
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Posted - 2003.09.10 12:31:00 -
[17]
So, does this new orbiting thingy meen that battleships and cruisers with ONLY large slow guns will finaly actualy be threatend by fast frigates? If so I'll join in on the applauding  |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.10 12:36:00 -
[18]
Orbiting is still somewhat buggy.
Megathron, customized for max agility (2 0.35 nanos, 1 0.25 nano) + 1 quad lif MWD.
Trying to orbit anything at any range and it will just make a little duckdance. The problem is that it shoots over it's orbiting range, tries to get back on that ranges, shoots over it (now under it's orbiting range), tries to get back,...
Basically it just travels between two points 2km apart (doesn't matter if I try to orbit 1 km or 20km) - there and back and there and back.
On a sidenote, you may want to nerf the nanos slightly. Unless you meant for BS to be able to accellerate from 0 to 2 km/s in 3 secs and have the agility of a shuttle.
free speech not allowed here |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.09.10 13:00:00 -
[19]
BLOCKQUOTE font class=quote size=9px face= verdana img src= /images/icon_quote_message.gif border= 0 b Quote: /b hr height=1 noshade BLOCKQUOTE font class=quote size=9px face= verdana img src= /images/icon_quote_message.gif border= 0 b Quote: /b hr height=1 noshade Great and all, but you have not answered if shield hardeners went from 70% to 40% the stacking nerf, since this would nerf nerf the hardeners. hr height=1 noshade /font /BLOCKQUOTE br br NOTE: The shield hardener has been nerfed from 70% TQ to 50% Chaos , the display on the graphs is as TQ was 50% br br As seen here => a href= http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=30230 target= _blank http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=30230 /a Nerf Thread
So basicly they lost 20%, and get a nerf when stacking... :/
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.09.10 13:02:00 -
[20]
Hmm, I *think* I just found something about Trajectory Analysis. I have never noticed anything wrong before today, when I got a Rifter (as I said in another thread, frigates are fun). It shows that my accuracy falloff is only 5000m - with traj. analysis 2. That would imply that the base range is 5000/1.1 = 4545,4545m? I don't think so 
This is on 200mm autocannons by the way.
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TomB
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Posted - 2003.09.10 13:18:00 -
[21]
About the nanofiber modules, they are giving straight bonus to the agility but are suposed to be giving a multiplier. Agility boosters are affecting battleships much greater than frigates because of this.
Will be updating Chaos today with this, Frigates then will need testing with the nanofiber modules, they might get the same problem
"Where is my hat?" |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.09.10 14:00:00 -
[22]
Quote:
About the nanofiber modules, they are giving straight bonus to the agility but are suposed to be giving a multiplier. Agility boosters are affecting battleships much greater than frigates because of this.
Will be updating Chaos today with this, Frigates then will need testing with the nanofiber modules, they might get the same problem
Would you mind confirming if spaceship command / evasive manuevering works, when you're on agility?
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.10 14:21:00 -
[23]
Yes, haven't seen any noticable effects of those.
The steps are far smaller than the nanos, though, so it could very well be I missed them, though.
free speech not allowed here |
SwitchBl4d3
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Posted - 2003.09.10 14:39:00 -
[24]
hmm cant seem to find the 1166-1199 patch to start patching the others, it seems to be linked to 1165-1170
"Teh lord of Nonni"
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Adis
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Posted - 2003.09.10 18:13:00 -
[25]
Jarjar the math to calculate percentages is <value>*<percent> and not <value>/<percent>...So this will be 5000*1.1=5500
Instinct is something you never learnàyou have to be born with it.
--Adis |
Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.09.10 18:35:00 -
[26]
umm Adis he was trying to work Backwards
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-----
Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.10 21:20:00 -
[27]
[quote
Edit Note:
Stacking penality is now working
*TomB asks for applause, golf style*
TomB, I posted over in Patch Review. But since this is sorta on topic because of this line, I'll throw a wing you'll notice it:
With the stacking penalties and the shield hardener changes, people will have to rely on armor more. Except there are no armor plating blueprints availible. And the energized armor modifications are also missing as well.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.10 21:27:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 10/09/2003 21:27:25
Well, there are no Shield Hardener BP as well. Hasn't stopped most people from getting them.
free speech not allowed here |
Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.09.10 21:52:00 -
[29]
well photon scattering field I bp is on the market, which from pure stats you'd think was the most important one ? (though in practise of course thermal seems to be more usefull than em)
shield extender BP's (the equivalent of the reinforced platings after all) are on the market also
.
-----
Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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TomB
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Posted - 2003.09.11 00:32:00 -
[30]
Edited first post:
Edit Note:
* Stacking should now be working 100%
* Smart Bombs lessened a little in fitting requirement, upped in damage
* Siege Launchers lessened more in fitting requirement
* Agility tuned a little for some ships with weird agility
We will also try to get agility and signatureRadius in the info window for ships
"Where is my hat?" |
Lurk
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Posted - 2003.09.11 01:18:00 -
[31]
TomB would you mind checking the Stacking Thread, "Iridina" made a good suggestion there about the formula.
The Stacking Thread (it's the first post on the page)
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Kalki Nibiru
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Posted - 2003.09.11 01:47:00 -
[32]
Quote:
TomB, you have to keep in mind that the Maller has no drone bay, and not much recources to power an Medium Smartbomb wich is now needed to kill the new Drones... Thorax has same Turrets, and now 8 "Medium Frigates" as escort!
Thorax vs Maller is now, well, "one sided"...
Here is a little secret the NPC's use on me..........they target the drones and blast them into tiny atoms.
I would hardly say that heavy combat drones are frigates, they die very fast. All you need to do is aim your weapons at them, and believe me, once they are gone, any Gallente pilot might want to find the nearest station/gate/dead space.
Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate
.
<Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market?
<Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with |
Chucky
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Posted - 2003.09.11 02:22:00 -
[33]
Thanks Tomb  
... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture. |
mr quik
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Posted - 2003.09.11 02:32:00 -
[34]
with smart bombs will they be able or are they know able to deflect missiles. If not will this become a add on in futrue pathes?
 power money respect |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.11 02:34:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 11/09/2003 02:50:16
Ok, my BS has now a more realistic accelleration - 0 -> 2km/s takes around 27 secs now.
But the problem with the duck dance remains. It's now more of a derby car problem.
At narrow orbits:
Imagine a derby car on a narrow circular track. But the derby car has not enough steering to actually be able to manage the "eternal curve" with it's speed. The result is some kind of "pong". It will hit then outer wall of the track, is reflected to the other side, hit's the inner wall, is reflected,...
The result may have a slightly similar effect like a real orbit, but for SURE doesn't looks like one. At least we would need some pretty complicated gravity force setup for it 
The main problem is another one, though. If I have a pretty high speed when arriving at my orbit I still get the same effect as before. I hit the "inner wall" of my orbit, get "reflected", hit the "outer wall", get "reflected", and so on. The ship *is* slowing slowly that way and finally entering a pretty stable orbit - but it takes 1-2 minutes.
And during this time I won't "move" for the turrets of my target at all, I just would approach and withdraw repentantly to/from it with minimal "horizontal" movement. Meaning - a sitting (more appropriate: dancing) duck.
The simple approach to the wished orbiting distance isn't very good, too, since you are a sitting duck during that time as well.
The effect is not as bad with a moving target (tested with a can and a BS moving with 180 ms, but still a problem.
Needed:
- some way of "smoothing" narrow orbits to decrease the derby effect
- a slowly narrowing orbit instead of the current approach - bonga-bonga-bonga - orbit
free speech not allowed here |
The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.09.11 02:49:00 -
[36]
Edited by: The Wretch on 11/09/2003 02:49:46
For once I like all these changes.
edit: *golf clap*
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2003.09.11 05:34:00 -
[37]
TomB
Quote:
About the nanofiber modules, they are giving straight bonus to the agility but are suposed to be giving a multiplier. Agility boosters are affecting battleships much greater than frigates because of this.
Will be updating Chaos today with this, Frigates then will need testing with the nanofiber modules, they might get the same problem
Hmm, I was under the impression that agility was an arbitrary multiplier from 0.0 to 1.0. Which worked with "mass" to give acc/dec and turning. Thus getting this figure to 0 from 1 will give you the best agility.
People have reported that hull mods increase agility by reducing this figure. However reducing it beyond a certain point (zero?) causes agility to get worse again.
This is a bug.
I am also concerned that spaceship command and evasive maneovuring skill is not having ANY effect on agility (i.e. they are broken). Once agility is less of a black box attribute maybe this will become clearer.
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Athule Snanm
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Posted - 2003.09.11 10:20:00 -
[38]
Personally I'd rather not have ships using MWD being able to orbit effectively (if at all) at close ranges. I have QuadLif on all my battleships and with that and my high nav and agility skills I can really get some speed going on TQ. Whilst it would be a bit of fun, it'd be very silly to be able to stick a couple of nanos on and orbit some poor frigate at close range.
_______________________________
Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene! |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.11 10:49:00 -
[39]
Noone would use that vs frigs (or even cruisers) - but as a shortrange vs a longrange BS it whould be possible.
free speech not allowed here |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.09.11 13:33:00 -
[40]
"Whilst it would be a bit of fun, it'd be very silly to be able to stick a couple of nanos on and orbit some poor frigate at close range."
... Yup; it's more than just silly, actually... aside from the cost, about the only advantages of the smaller ships are their higher speed and agility. When you can make the battleship move 2-3 times faster and be more agile than any frigate, due to lower 'base' agility of the battleship and larger number of low slots... what's the point of small ships, really?..
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Keo Morigan
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Posted - 2003.09.11 14:04:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Keo Morigan on 11/09/2003 14:05:24
soo, drones are already good enough in PvP, they eat any cruiser avalible alive atm. And when you take avay the ability to destroy them with torpedos/Cruise missiles, how to kill them? Target 6+ drones manually and shoot them down while the droner is shooting at me?
Just want to know how you do so the thorax won't get overpowered (Only cruiser you fear when in a cruiser yourself, cause it's no idea to jam it..)
edit: oh, right, smartbombs... They never worked against drones before, dunno now.
If your not a part of the solution, then you'r probably a part of the problem. |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.11 14:18:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 11/09/2003 14:20:51
Don't forget, the nanofiber bug has been fixed. Those rediculous frigate agility of a nanoed BS is no longer possible.
In fact it seems that TomB has (yet again) hit them full force with the nerfbat instead of balancing them - because they have now *no* effect at all besides their speedbonus.
Megathron with quad lif, max speed 1491 - accelleration time to 90% of max speed (1342) - 32 seconds
Megathron with 3 21m/s overdrives (alpha hull mod) + quad lif, max speed 2309 - accelleration time to 90% of max speed (2078) - 32 seconds
Megathron with 3 21m/s nanofibers (local hull conversion I) + quad lif, max speed 2309 - accelleration time to 90% of max speed (2078) - 32 seconds
Nanos have a lower speed bonus that overdrives in exchange for a higher agility bonus - but it seems that bonus has switched from too big to not existant.
I'm not asking for a BS having the agility of a frig, but if it is using nanodrives it should be able to outmaneuver a BS without them.
free speech not allowed here |
TomB
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Posted - 2003.09.11 15:39:00 -
[43]
As I stated, Nanofibers have more effect on smaller ships. The effect is not that much for acceleration from min to max speed, but you can notice the effect more of the nanofibers when you go to orbiting, the ships will keep more speed when taking turns.
"Where is my hat?" |
Acuna Traos
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Posted - 2003.09.11 15:52:00 -
[44]
Quote:
Megathron with quad lif, max speed 1491 - accelleration time to 90% of max speed (1342) - 32 seconds
Megathron with 3 21m/s overdrives (alpha hull mod) + quad lif, max speed 2309 - accelleration time to 90% of max speed (2078) - 32 seconds
I'd like to point out that that is actualy a reasonable increas in acceleration. You should be measuring the time to the SAME speed ie for;
Megathron with 3 21m/s overdrives (alpha hull mod) + quad lif
accelleration time to 1342 (same as 1st accel test) - ~21 seconds (calculated)
thats a 11 second boost not bad realy, and you can surpass this speed and go faster. Why do you think cars have a 0-60mph value rather than a 0-60% value! percentages are pointless for measuring acceleration, its how fast you accelerate to a given speed that is the point.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.11 16:17:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 11/09/2003 17:36:07
@ Acuna Traos:
You miss the point.
First, you are wrong about the accelleration. You cannot calculate it that way because accelleration isn't a linear in eve. It accellerates faster at the start and slowly ebbs out at the end.
Because of this it's only practical to compare speeds of the same percentage of the max speed.
Second it's not about a ship without overdrives/nanos and one with, but about a ship with nanos and one with overdrives.
As said before, overdrives have a bigger speed bonus than nanos (30 vs 21 with the better overdrives/nanos), but the nanos have a better agility bonus - basically a ship with nanos should be more agile, while a ship with overdrives should be faster.
@ TomB - will test it with different ship classes/outfits and edit the reports in here.
1.)
Megathron with 3 local hull nanos + quad lif MWD
command: orbiting fight club 2 station at 20km
result: after 1-2 minutes having problems getting into stable orbit (bonga-bonga-bonga) it orbits the station with 1400-1600 speed (falling and ebbing between these two values). At 25 km, btw, and not 20 km.
Megathron with 3 alpha hull mod overdrives + quad lif MWD
command: orbiting fight club 2 station at 20km
result: as before, after 1-2 minutes having problems it's orbiting the station with 1400-1600 speed, falling and ebbing. Here too at 25 km instead of 20 km.
-> Overdrives gave the BS exactly the same orbiting speed as the nanos. Note that the overdrives I used gave the same speed bonus as the nanos.
Last megathron test with overdrives of them same quality as the nanos - local hull conversion - which give 32 m/s instead of the 21 m/s as the nanos.
Conditions same as before.
Result: After problems stable orbit at 25km (instead of the ordered 20 km) with 1800-1900 ms.
Conclusion with BS:
Nanos do not help at all - you get higher orbiting speeds with overdrives of the same quality.
2.)
Now testing it with a cruiser.
A moa, three 21 ms local hull nanos, 1 quad lif. After 60% of it'cap cap was spend it went finally out of the bonga-bonga-phase into a stable orbit at 15 km (ordered a orbit of 10 km), orbiting speed 1100-1400.
Same setup, but with 3 21 ms alpha hull mod overdrives: Orbiting range 15 instead of the choosen 10km, bonga-bonga-problems, orbiting speed finally 1100-1400.
With 3 32ms overdrives now (local hull; as before - same quility/rarity than the nanos used)- Exactly the same result as before, just this time with an orbiting speed of 1600-1800.
-> The agility bonus of nanofibers have the same effect to cruisers as to BS's - none.
3.)
Now picking a frigate.
Ok, a tristan with 3 lif AB. And 3 21 ms nanos (local hull). Using a can to orbit it at 5 km (this time it actually orbits it at 5 km and not at 7.5 or 10). Bonga-bonga happens here, too, but only for ~10 secs. Orbiting speed is pretty stable at 1020-1030.
With 3 21 ms overdrives: Exactly the same results. Speed is a little more unstable, veries between 1015 and 1035.
Wth 3 32 ms overdrives: Exactly the same results, exept a orbiting speed of
1090-1120.
-> No noticable agility bonus for frigs with the nanos, too.
Does this prove my point of the agility bonus of nanos not working atm? 
free speech not allowed here |
Acuna Traos
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Posted - 2003.09.11 16:28:00 -
[46]
I don't want to get into a flame war here, I know my values will not be accurate as I did it in a linear way and accel isn't. BUT it should still be tested to the same speed as that is the only way to get standard to look at. I'll refer back to cars in the real world. They have all different acceleration curves yet are tested alot from 0 to 60mph as its your ability to reach a desired speed in a set amount of time. The fact some cars can go faster is a bonus, and in some cases a faster car may even have slower acceleration.
Thats all I'm going to say on the point and if you still dissagree then so be it.
Though I would like to mention something someone else said somewhere. An option to spiral or zig zag towards a target would be good. Especialy for frigs closing down larger ships.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.11 16:48:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 11/09/2003 16:54:46
Quote:
I don't want to get into a flame war here, BUT it should still be tested to the same speed as that is the only way to get standard to look at. I'll refer back to cars in the real world. They have all different acceleration curves yet are tested alot from 0 to 60mph as its your ability to reach a desired speed in a set amount of time...
I don't want a flamewar, too, but I don't want to waste my time with you, because, as said, you are missing the point. My example with the overdrives and the nanos HAD the same speed, but the same acelleration, too. Which shouldn't be the case.
The example with the ship without neither was just as comparsion to the overdrive - don't fixate of that, but on the ship with nanos and that with overdrives.
To use your car example:
Take car1 with a carbon frame and a slightly weaker engine (nanos; they have a weaker speedbonus than overdrives of the same qulity, but a lighter mass (-> bigger agility bonus)) and car2, which is just the same as car2, exept that it has a heavy iron frame, but a stronger engine (Overdrives, they give only a very light agility bonus, but a bigger speedbonus).
Car1 will have a lower endspeed, but will reach it's endspeed faster than car2, because it has a weaker engine (lower endspeed), but a lower mass (aka better agility -> higher accleration because it has less inertia).
That is not the case in Eve - both cars/ships reach their max speed *at exactly the same time*.
-----
And why you are wrong with the nano/overdriveless ship and the ship with overdrives.
Assume the ship with th overdrive has a better engine, but the same mass as th ship without nanos/overdrives - OF COURCE the ship with overdrives will acellerate faster - it has a better engine after all.
BUT - it will reach it's max speed *at the same time* as the ship with the weaker engine - since it has the same mass/inertia.
It isn't the acelleration SPEED which is important, but the acelleration TIME.
free speech not allowed here |
Troezar
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Posted - 2003.09.11 17:07:00 -
[48]
Ok so 0-60 in 5 secs is the same as 0-100 in 5 secs, nope I think not. To find the real difference do as car mags do and measure 0-30 0-40 0-50 etc. then do 50-70 30-80 etc.
If you want to do 0-max speed then you have eto use the same max speed value or all comparisons are meaningless.
I'd be well please if my car did 0-100 in the same time as it does 0-60 currently 10 secs I'd ahve a real beast on my hands!!!
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.11 17:17:00 -
[49]
If that was in response to my posting, please reread them, because you don't understand it either.
free speech not allowed here |
Acuna Traos
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Posted - 2003.09.11 17:24:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Acuna Traos on 11/09/2003 17:25:27
I'm sorry the way I went about arguing my point emphisised the wrong thing. I mearly don't like the fact you used a percentage as a stop point, and I have to admit I missed one set of stats. Duh me! (I do admit mistakes )
You do have a good point in there though, and I noticed we also said the same thing in two different ways in our second posts (of which I do have some totaly unrelated points about but will refrain from saying as its pointless and has detracted from the original point of your post for which I am sorry, I'm just having one of those days).
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.11 17:38:00 -
[51]
Sorry, too, because my speech wasn't really polite either way. I have those days atm, too. (Especially since I originally wanted to do some work ATM and not having to argue about things).
free speech not allowed here |
TomB
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Posted - 2003.09.11 21:31:00 -
[52]
Thank you alot for the feedback Ana, I have a few questions about your testings:
The Bonga-Bonga:
Do they happen all the time or just when the ship is trying to adjust itself for orbiting? We know ships with low Inertia (mass * agility) are having a little trouble adjusting for orbit, but when they have started orbiting for real they don't have this problem anymore, was this the same case with your testing or did this also happen after the orbit had started for real?
Orbit Ranges:
As I understand the further out you went in orbit ranges the more bonga-bonga you had while trying to get into orbit, that true?
If this is only a case with ships adjusting itself for orbit then I can proudly say it is being fixed, ships will have easier time to adjust themselves into the orbit sequence.
Bonga-Bonga! Hakuna Matata!
"Where is my hat?" |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.12 00:08:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 12/09/2003 00:11:50
Mhh.. seems I must stop to use such silly terms, it sound somewhat childish when someone other is using them
The..er.. bouncing only happens when ship ship "hits" his orbit, not before and not after it finally achieves a stable orbit. It has a longer duration on stationary targets that moving ones (up to two minutes bouncing on stationary targets, 30-60 sec bouncing on a ship moving 180 ms I tested it on).
No bouncing after the ship manages to stop it at starts orbiting for real. A narrow orbit (5 km or less) of low-agi ship looks somewhat strange, though, since it hits the "walls" of hits orbit tube. It still can orbit halfway effeciently, but I would hand out stomach sickness bags to all passengers.
The distance to the orbit has only a limited effect of the time the ships keep bouncing. The important factor is the speed - which is linked to the distance. But different ships can have different speeds after a certain distance.
Will test it rrrright away.
Edit: ...er..tomorrow. Forgot that I deleted my eve-chaos install topday because I needed some space. Must clean it up a little.
free speech not allowed here |
ULTIMA TREX
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Posted - 2003.09.12 08:35:00 -
[54]
TomB, is the ranges of targetting fixed for drones, the small problem they cant attack further than 20km?
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Dianabolic
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Posted - 2003.09.12 12:23:00 -
[55]
Quote:
TomB, is the ranges of targetting fixed for drones, the small problem they cant attack further than 20km?
Desperately needed. 
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TomB
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Posted - 2003.09.12 14:47:00 -
[56]
Thanks again for your feedback, we will try all we can to get a smooth orbit adjustment for the patch
The reason for the distance of target always being longer than the orbit menu gives you for orbiting is because of the orbit range is set from the edge of the collision radius sphere of your ship and the radius sphere of the object you are orbiting. But the target distance is always shown from the center of the object and the center of your ship. So if you are orbiting a station with a large collision radius sphere, the distance will show as greater than the orbiting is told to be at. This is something that will be looked at later, not high priority at the moment.
"Where is my hat?" |
Fritz Ionar
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Posted - 2003.09.12 17:04:00 -
[57]
Quote:
The reason for the distance of target always being longer than the orbit menu gives you for orbiting is because of the orbit range is set from the edge of the collision radius sphere of your ship and the radius sphere of the object you are orbiting. But the target distance is always shown from the center of the object and the center of your ship. So if you are orbiting a station with a large collision radius sphere, the distance will show as greater than the orbiting is told to be at. This is something that will be looked at later, not high priority at the moment.
I think it makes most sens to have it this way so don't bother looking at it
Ofcour others might disagrea... |
TomB
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Posted - 2003.09.12 17:44:00 -
[58]
We just fixed the distance, it will now always show distance from collision radius from object to your ship's collision radius... changed it just for you Fritz. Will come on Chaos on next update.
"Where is my hat?" |
Hematic
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Posted - 2003.09.12 19:45:00 -
[59]
Quote:
We just fixed the distance, it will now always show distance from collision radius from object to your ship's collision radius...
How does this affect optimal ranges? Has turret range always used center to center, or coll rad. to coll rad. in its equations?
When targetting large objects (giant asteroids/stations) will this change essentially give a targetting range bonus? Or will your targetting range still be limited to center to center?
How will this affect scramblers and other fixed range equipment? Will they begin to use these new calculations when determining if they will fire?
Thx.
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TomB
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Posted - 2003.09.13 15:21:00 -
[60]
Woops, we will change the the bracket and target distances back and rather add the collision radius to the orbit ranges.
Was too hasty here that I forgot that docking and stargate jumping is calculated from the center of the objects.
"Where is my hat?" |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.09.13 20:37:00 -
[61]
The collision change has messed up missles ability to track targets horribly..
I'm kind of peeved that missles can now be shot down with turrets.. TomB, if I want to disrupt turrets I need to use multiple modules to do so.. but now to stop missles all you need is a fast target lock and to shoot them?
What's the point of defenders and smartbombs if someone can just point and click missles dead???
Turrets already have many advantages over missles, for instance, turrets ignore collision, they can shoot through a station or asteroid and hit someone.. missles will instead strike the station. No more negatives for missles, please. :)
Cruise missle skill is still broke, does FOF missle damage bonus work? I don't think it does either, will this be in for patch?
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.09.13 20:57:00 -
[62]
its always been possible to shoot down missiles, its just not many people figured it out ;)
.
-----
Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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TomB
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Posted - 2003.09.14 18:18:00 -
[63]
Quote:
The collision change has messed up missles ability to track targets horribly..
There hasn't been any changes with collision, missiles are still as hard to hit with turrets as before patch.
Quote:
I'm kind of peeved that missles can now be shot down with turrets.. TomB, if I want to disrupt turrets I need to use multiple modules to do so.. but now to stop missles all you need is a fast target lock and to shoot them?
But to be able to shoot a missile you have to have focus of all targets to be able to target it and then be able to shoot it before it hits you. Using this as a tactic is impossible when many missiles are flying at you, specially when you can't shoot the ship that is blowing you away.
Quote:
Cruise missle skill is still broke, does FOF missle damage bonus work? I don't think it does either, will this be in for patch?
All missile skills were broke, we are working on them right now.
"Where is my hat?" |
Scobichevskaya
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Posted - 2003.09.14 18:38:00 -
[64]
Quote:
As I stated, Nanofibers have more effect on smaller ships. The effect is not that much for acceleration from min to max speed, but you can notice the effect more of the nanofibers when you go to orbiting, the ships will keep more speed when taking turns.
Doh. I really liked moving fast. It makes the game a lot less boring, makes close combat possible, and much easier to pick up containers after killing a bunch of NPCs. How are battleships going to get close to enemies now? I used afterburners instead of MWD so my shield and cap aren't reduced, but for a BShip that moves so slow, it makes using close-to-medium range weapons difficult to use (if in PvP, you may never catch up to the enemy). I don't think too many people use the nanofibers and I would like it to be a user choice to use them or not as long as they still remain effective. If they get severely nerfed, then they will be nearly useless for BShips.
-------------
RUS / RUA
RUSSIAN Team
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.09.14 18:48:00 -
[65]
Quote:
There hasn't been any changes with collision, missiles are still as hard to hit with turrets as before patch.
he was referring to the missiles that fly to the target, then instead of hitting it and exploding, simply start orbiting it till they run out of flight time (on chaos apparently)
.
-----
Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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TomB
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Posted - 2003.09.14 19:53:00 -
[66]
Quote:
he was referring to the missiles that fly to the target, then instead of hitting it and exploding, simply start orbiting it till they run out of flight time (on chaos apparently)
There have been done no changes with the missiles for quite some time and I'm not able to reproduce this, it could possibly be lag where the bracket for the missile does not dissapear?
"Where is my hat?" |
Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2003.09.14 19:59:00 -
[67]
Quote:
Doh. I really liked moving fast. It makes the game a lot less boring, makes close combat possible, and much easier to pick up containers after killing a bunch of NPCs. How are battleships going to get close to enemies now? I used afterburners instead of MWD so my shield and cap aren't reduced, but for a BShip that moves so slow, it makes using close-to-medium range weapons difficult to use (if in PvP, you may never catch up to the enemy). I don't think too many people use the nanofibers and I would like it to be a user choice to use them or not as long as they still remain effective. If they get severely nerfed, then they will be nearly useless for BShips.
That's why they are making Nanos more efficient on frigates and cruisers. What's the point of making a proportionally equal change to all ship categories? The aim is to get pilots to use Nanos and along with the changes in SignatureRadius, Orbit changes, Tracking speed etc make smaller ships usefull in PvP.
Now if you want a speedy BS you need MWDs. You can't complain about the cap usage though cause that is the cost you pay for 1)being fast 2)being able to deliver lots of damage. Can't have it all without some balance.
Besides you can still use a close range slow BS for cover. If these changes work well you won't have to worry about getting close to other that much since cruisers and frigates will be trying to get close to you. Stay close to the large distance ships in yer gang and provide cover against incoming ships.
I do hope PvP starts to look like this after the changes go in.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Acuna Traos
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Posted - 2003.09.14 23:37:00 -
[68]
Quote:
Cruise missle skill is still broke, does FOF missle damage bonus work? I don't think it does either, will this be in for patch?
Quote:
All missile skills were broke, we are working on them right now.
Also will the FOF missile damage bonus stack with the cruise missile bonus for a FOF cruise, since it is kinda both. Or are they classed as totaly different missiles?
Oh, is there any particular reason why on chaos the explosive cruise sometimes takes a chunk out of armour as well as shields? while a corp mate can't do it to me but I can to him. The only difference being that I have lvl 3 cruise he has lvl1. Though all the other missiles get totaly absorbed by the shields.
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.09.15 03:56:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 15/09/2003 03:56:50
Quote:
There have been done no changes with the missiles for quite some time and I'm not able to reproduce this, it could possibly be lag where the bracket for the missile does not dissapear?
I dont have the foggiest ;) my chaos char wouldnt even have the missile skills .. what I have read from several people now however is that torpedos are managing to miss stationary battleships (and in one case a mobile refinery, though that looked like the refinery had been destroyed, but wasnt dissapearing) and the torps just orbiting the object (big glowing balls :P) untill they expire .. one pic I saw looked like someones christmas deccys floating in space .. pretty ;)
.
-----
Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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soltys
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Posted - 2003.09.15 21:47:00 -
[70]
Edited by: soltys on 16/09/2003 11:19:43
about orbiting in 1209 build:
Tested with Vigil + 2 afterburners.
Generally, it works pretty nice, after orbit is set up.
But the time requird to set up orbit is quite big and suicidial (in terms of frigate survival). I'll try to describe here what's happening:
1) begin: vigial near the container, unmovable. I order ship to make orbit at 5k.
2) frigate goes away from container until it reaches 5.x km range. Then it makes rapid change of direction, now trying to correct distance and get closer to container. slowing down effectively by a big margin in this process
3) then frigate gets to close and tries to correct orbit again
4) points 2-3 are repeated few times, with diminishing amplitude, of how much of the distance is to be corrected. And in consecutive repeating of points 2-3, frigate actually starts orbiting, albeit beginings are often terribly slow (due to corrections).
Small illustration:
setup problem
change orbit problem
Proposed solution:
illustration
At least case when starting orbit from range greater than requested range should be easy to improve...
----------------------------------------------------------
Damage stats: click version v1.1.02 retail. |
TomB
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Posted - 2003.09.15 22:19:00 -
[71]
Missile skills should now all be working.
"Where is my hat?" |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.09.15 23:27:00 -
[72]
Quote:
Missile skills should now all be working.
Raven ROF bonus with seige launchers is apparently broken.
------
ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.16 00:43:00 -
[73]
Quote:
Missile skills should now all be working.
So this means the FoF skill and Cruise Missile skill bonuses now work? Cause if so, I've got a real question for you:
What stacking rules apply to FoF Cruise Missiles? 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Valeria
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Posted - 2003.09.16 00:44:00 -
[74]
Pretty sure TomB stated in the missile thread that all missile skills would grant a speed bonus now, which makes sense.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.09.16 01:33:00 -
[75]
Quote:
Pretty sure TomB stated in the missile thread that all missile skills would grant a speed bonus now, which makes sense.
eh? i dont think he did, he said it was a temp thing but it should be damage.. torps > cruise atm, still..
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
TomB
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Posted - 2003.09.16 01:47:00 -
[76]
Edited by: TomB on 16/09/2003 01:48:10
Light Missiles: 5% speed
Heavy Missiles: 5% speed and flight duration
Cruise Missiles: 5% speed and damage
Torpedos: 10% blast radius
Rockets: 5% damage
FoF Missiles: 5% agility
Let me know if anything brakes 
"Where is my hat?" |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.09.16 01:49:00 -
[77]
Quote:
Edited by: TomB on 16/09/2003 01:48:10
Light Missiles: 5% speed
Heavy Missiles: 5% speed and flight duration
Cruise Missiles: 5% speed and damage
Torpedos: 10% blast radius
Rockets: 5% damage
FoF Missiles: 5% agility
Let me know if anything brakes
Copied from my other post, dunno if you read anything outside this thread:
Missles need to ignore line of sight. When targetting at another ship they should ignore all obstacles and fly at their target.
Why? Because if this is not the case they will hit drones, not be able to hit people hiding in the middle of stations.. behind asteroids, cargo containers.. ect..
This is a huge issue, people with turrets can ignore all the line of sight restrictions on missles and blast you from behind any kind of obstacle, yet a missle user is helpeless in these situations.
This is something that should be a high priority to change.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2003.09.16 02:50:00 -
[78]
Actualy, I'd rather have turrets restricted by line of sight then have missles and turrets unrestricted.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.09.16 02:51:00 -
[79]
Quote:
Actualy, I'd rather have turrets restricted by line of sight then have missles and turrets unrestricted.
That works too..
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.09.16 10:32:00 -
[80]
cruise missle skill no longer appears to be giving speed bonus as per skill description.. might wanna fix that.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
soltys
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Posted - 2003.09.16 10:55:00 -
[81]
Edited by: soltys on 16/09/2003 11:20:22
In addition to orbit's "setting up" problem:
I'm not sure what causes it, but even after initial setup phase, it sometimes take insanely a lot of time for ship to get to the nominal speed. It more or less looks like if ships had acceleration of 2m/s^2. Yet I can't find a way to always reproduce it.
So summing it up - when ship orbits something unmovable, it's very nice. But initial setup phase (my previous reply), problem outlined above and any other corrections, when ship tries to orbit something that moves - it's basically suicide if firgate is being attacked.
----------------------------------------------------------
Damage stats: click version v1.1.02 retail. |
Karash Amerius
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Posted - 2003.09.16 15:36:00 -
[82]
The optimal thing to do here is to make turret fire hit objects in the LOS...rocks, gates, etc.
Its one thing to see a lasershot go through a gate, you can rationalize that somehow...but not missiles. (imo)
Splash damage of course should be looked at as far as gates, sentry guns, and stations go.
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soltys
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Posted - 2003.09.16 16:44:00 -
[83]
orbit continued:
Situation, when ships is insanely slowly gaining speed when ordering orbit (mentioned in my post above) - it usually happens in situations, when you start orbit function directly above or below your target, with starting range smaller than requested orbiting range.
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Damage stats: click version v1.1.02 retail. |
Drutort
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Posted - 2003.09.17 01:20:00 -
[84]
sorry i didnt feel like reading 5+ pages... but is the mining drone ops skill working?
I got the word that it doesnt work right now? Has it been looked at and fixed if its not working?
I mean we need key skills like that to work... and since this is the drone thread i had to ask
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
Tyrrax Thorrk
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Posted - 2003.09.17 03:21:00 -
[85]
Great job TomB, really nice to see devs talking to players
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.09.17 11:40:00 -
[86]
Quote:
sorry i didnt feel like reading 5+ pages... but is the mining drone ops skill working?
I got the word that it doesnt work right now? Has it been looked at and fixed if its not working?
I mean we need key skills like that to work... and since this is the drone thread i had to ask
As far as I could tell it worked before. At lvl 1, my Harveys could pull in 85 plag, now, at level 3, it's about 100.
*golf clap for TomB*
bravo!
.
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NoS Dingo
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Posted - 2003.09.18 07:12:00 -
[87]
Since when did going from 5 damage per shot to 4 (20% reduction) for a warrior drone be considered "Beefing Up" drones?
Then again... this matches the rest of the joke considered the current patch.
Playing checkers with my dog is becoming very appealing compared to this utter bull****.
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Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2003.09.18 15:57:00 -
[88]
Quote:
Since when did going from 5 damage per shot to 4 (20% reduction) for a warrior drone be considered "Beefing Up" drones?
Then again... this matches the rest of the joke considered the current patch.
Playing checkers with my dog is becoming very appealing compared to this utter bull****.
It seems to have been more a levelling in terms of damage, shields, armour, etc. As you have obviously noticed, Warriors were the best option for a small drone bay, as they had a lot of shields and did a lot of damage for their size. There seems to have been an effort in this patch to bring damage done by each drone of a certain size closer together. There are still variations in armour and shield strength, but even then they seem closer than they used to be.
Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
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NoS Dingo
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Posted - 2003.09.18 22:44:00 -
[89]
OK... so explain the 20% to acolytes.. from 5 to 4 EM.. also 20% nerf.
Acolyte was weak before, now it is useless even against a 1k rat.
Again I question the "Beefing Up" claim.
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Scobichevskaya
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Posted - 2003.09.19 21:25:00 -
[90]
Quote:
Since when did going from 5 damage per shot to 4 (20% reduction) for a warrior drone be considered "Beefing Up" drones?
Then again... this matches the rest of the joke considered the current patch.
Playing checkers with my dog is becoming very appealing compared to this utter bull****.
I was disappointed with this change as well.
Also when orbiting, my Scorpion will orbit a moving target properly (counterclockwise). But when I turn on my MWD, my Scorpion turns around and then orbits clockwise. If I turn MWD off, then my Scorp turns around and then orbits counterclockwise. Why is this?
I am also displeased with the nanofiber change. I would rather use two afterburners with nanofibers than use a MWD with different low slots. Four nanofibers doesn't seem to do anything other than give a top speed increase. I like to get close up in the battle and move with agility, but the recent change to nanofibers hinders this possibility (you can't do this with MWD since your cap and shields are cut and you won't turn fast). Fighting has been reduced to the boring standard of lock, shoot, and wait until the enemy dies. I know I'm in an EW ship and I have EW skills, but they are useless against NPCs. A Scorp can't match the firepower of other BShips, therefore I equip my ship for speed and accuracy. Also with the recent changes, my Scorp with 2 afterburners will fly past a container when I approach the container. By the time I open the container (when 1500 m away) I will fly past it and then get a message saying that I have to be within 1500 meters and the container window won't open. I then have to wait a few more seconds for the ship to turn around and then fly toward the container. Also, having to wait for my ship to get aligned to warp takes a lot longer. Flying is such a waste of my time. Right now most of the time playing Eve is just wasted in waiting for the ship to get to a destination.
-------------
RUS / RUA
RUSSIAN Team
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Gauguin
|
Posted - 2003.09.20 15:14:00 -
[91]
The transition from other flight modes to 'orbit' is extremely rough, with the velocity dropping below 50 m/s for extended periods of time (long enough to die).
Transition from one orbit to another also has the same problems as above. If the maneuver is designed to help a smaller ship against a larger ship (and it does once stable trajectory is attained), it needs to be fixed.
It's been a while since I've done any dynamics, but the oscillations in heading when commanding an orbit are definitely fixable.
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