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Drevonion
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Posted - 2006.03.20 17:33:00 -
[1]
Tracking and what it really means to us and what it should be.
*This is not a please nerf Guns, I am a specialized Turret monger, and have low missile skills.
Eve Definition: Tracking=A guns tracking is its ability to traverse a set amount of radians/second.
Issue we currently have is not about tracking, it is about Precision. We have 2 distinct offensive weapon systems in EVE, Turrets and Missles, this much is obvious. What is not obvious to most is that the systems seem to have completely different mechanics on how to hit a target.
Guns hit the target 100% if the tracking is sufficient and you are inside optimal, which is completely unreasonable, since in this stuation I could be in my Tempest at 70+ KM and hit something the size of a tractor trailer with 100% accuracy. This is inherently unfair to a small ship pilot as the Farther they are away the more likely they are to get Shribbonized. I can personally nuke 3-4 NPC frigs with 6 guns between 60-80 km, a Raven cannot do that with any kind of ammo.
Missiles have several Criteria involved with the combat system, Speed, sig radius, range to launcher that allows them to become very easily decreased in effectiveness. Torpedoes have a max range on the order of 60km for the t1 variants, the tech 2 might have slightly longer range, but since I cannot use yhm I will not make any suppositions. with the right setup and ship cruise missiles can fly a damn long way (>100km) but in doing so a correctly fitted ship can partially or completely mitigate the damage to the point of becoming inconsequential compared to the firing ship.
Example,
Raven vs Tempest Range 80 KM
Raven 6 cruise vs tempest with 6 1400 2 rocket launchers with Defenders
both maintain a standard tank with shield hardners 50-60% resists across the board
ROF is fairly similar between the 2 weapon systems with sniper fit on Tempest (3 damage mods)
Raven fires 6 cruise, tempest fires 6 1400 time for missile impact 20 seconds approx. rocket launchers begin to spam defenders. 1 defender at that range = 1 dead cruise 2 second ROF allows you to fire 5 defenders from first launcher, then start the second firing this will allow you to mitigate his damage by at least 80% for the first volley, while unless he is jamming you which reduces his tank, he is on the receiving end of a mostly if not fully effective volley of Fusion or Titanium Sabot or Phased Plasma. This should generate on the order of 1000-1500 Damage on that Raven, while the received damage is on the order of 300-450 raw damage. Over time the missile ROF from the Raven will swamp the Rocket launchers ROF and will begin to hit with greater effect, however that is not the point of this post, it is to point out that Ravens are in no way UBER, just much easier for the average Pilot to be successful in.
Example 2
Raven vs Ranis
raven 6 cruise missile tech 2 Precision cruise loaded
Ranis
Blasters (ion tech 2)
1 nos
MWD
this battle will not last long, as the ranis will be assailed with cruise right from the get go, hitting it for large amounts of damage starting at 40+ km
Tempest vs ranis
6 1400
ranis
same as above
Ranis is still dead very quickly unless he starts inside of 40-60 km as he cannot really generate the necessary transveral to make the guns miss.
Only with tech 2 precision can I see the Raven actually come up to par vs the better turret ships, and with the new changes I can see the megaT turning into a frig popper extraordinaire with the 37.5 tracking bonus at level 5, and the insane ROF.
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Spektral
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Posted - 2006.03.20 17:34:00 -
[2]
CONT
Suggestion to help Balance the system vs frigs, Truly institute the Signature radius in a way that a smaller ship sig radius of ~40m being shot at with a BS turret with a signature resolution of 400 having a very sizable miss chance unless mititgating modules are installed (Tracking Computers, Sig Amps with which to sharpen the Sig of the target, and really make the TP a viable combat option for support ships to use, as the weaponry would need the assist to track in on the target.
This suggestion works to the goals of the PVP community and CCP in many ways. Slowing combat down, by having existing tanks last longer since les damage is being done to them, Making a mixed fleet with support class ships the key to a success rather then just who can bring the most BS', which is a common issue as many new players are almost invariably relegated to a Tackle/scout role in frigs where they could be flying a Tech 1 support class cruiser and contributing to the fleet in a very material way. And for PVP'ers that enjoy the challenge of creating the "OMGWTFPWNmobile" it allows them to create small unit dynamics that will accentuate the specific ships strengths, for example a Blasterthron could benefit from a Painter Cruiser, and a damper frig, eliminating the drawbacks of flying a Blasterboat.
And would level the playing field between missiles and turrets as viable choices to new players, as of currently new players dont have the easy time alot of us had as the weapon systems have been tweaked and modded so much and had soooo many skills added that a new player will take the better part of a year to become very good at any Ship and weapon type, and this can be very over whelming.
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Lilane
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Posted - 2006.03.20 17:38:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Lilane on 20/03/2006 17:38:03
 Quote:
Guns hit the target 100% if the tracking is sufficient and you are inside optimal, which is completely unreasonable, since in this stuation I could be in my Tempest at 70+ KM and hit something the size of a tractor trailer with 100% accuracy.
This is not true : signature radius has to be taken into account!
Dark side of Elegance. |
Manion Taleroth
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Posted - 2006.03.20 17:54:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Drevonion
Guns hit the target 100% if the tracking is sufficient and you are inside optimal, which is completely unreasonable, since in this stuation I could be in my Tempest at 70+ KM and hit something the size of a tractor trailer with 100% accuracy. This is inherently unfair to a small ship pilot as the Farther they are away the more likely they are to get Shribbonized. I can personally nuke 3-4 NPC frigs with 6 guns between 60-80 km, a Raven cannot do that with any kind of ammo.
So, you're telling me that, within optimal and sufficient tracking, that signature radius and signature resolution don't come into play at all?
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OrangeAfroMan
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Posted - 2006.03.20 17:59:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Lilane
Edited by: Lilane on 20/03/2006 17:38:03
Quote:
Guns hit the target 100% if the tracking is sufficient and you are inside optimal, which is completely unreasonable, since in this stuation I could be in my Tempest at 70+ KM and hit something the size of a tractor trailer with 100% accuracy.
This is not true : signature radius has to be taken into account!
Yup
1400s have a Sig Resolution of 400, so, say you are inside optimal, not moving, neither is the Slasher (30 Sig Rad.) you're about to shoot at, thats actually only ~13% chance to hit (hopefully that calculation is right.. Perhaps they work it differently than Sig Res/Sig Rad :o )
So yeah... it aint so uber =p
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Spektral
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Posted - 2006.03.20 18:04:00 -
[6]
i repeat, at my optimal, I miss frigs less then 10% of the time, and they are moving.
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OrangeAfroMan
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Posted - 2006.03.20 18:05:00 -
[7]
Read This, specifically the part about Sig Rad/Resolution
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Skylar Keenan
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Posted - 2006.03.20 18:24:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Skylar Keenan on 20/03/2006 18:31:24
Ok, why is it people keep assuming that sig radius has an effect on your chance to hit a stationary target ??
Sig radius/resolution has NOTHING to do with hitting a stationary target! It is exclusively a modifier for tracking. The second they start moving the effect kicks in, but while stationary a turret will hit 100% of the time, if the target is within optimal range.
I'll be happy to prove this to anyone - they'll be sitting at 0 m/s in a frigate at 100m, and I'll be pop their ignorant *biip* with a 425mm rail
- Any takers ?
-edit-
Just decided to put in a quote from the tracking guide
"Since the signature comparison is multiplied with the tracking comparison..."
So if the tracking gives a 0% modifier to the turrets hit-chance, then the size comparison never takes effect.
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Commander Nikolas
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Posted - 2006.03.20 18:57:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Commander Nikolas on 20/03/2006 19:06:00
Example #1:
What is the point of this fight? They are both just wasting ammo...
You also point out specifically that the Tempest is carrying defenders... run those damage numbers if the raven is carrying 2x tracking disruptors? They will both be equally screwed for DPS.
You also need to face facts that the Tempest can't snipe and shield tank like you assert. It needs at least 1x Sensor Booster and 2x Tracking Comps.
You also need to understand that they Tempest can't fit 6x 1400s without sacrificing its armor tank aswell.
A more realistic situation would be each ship has a tackler on it. The raven would just instapwn its tackler with those T2 cruise and have the option to leave. The Tempest would sit there dying unable to do anything about the ship tackling it, unable to deal meaningful damage to the ravens tank...
Example #2:
Can anyone say stupid ranis pilot? A ceptor can keep its transversal well above 1km/s well approaching from any distance.
The raven with T2 cruise will kill the ranis very quickly, where as the pilot with the 1400s will have to use his NOS and drones when the ranis gets in range.
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Commander Nikolas
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Posted - 2006.03.20 19:05:00 -
[10]
Oh also just so you know... I solo killed a Tempest with an Ishkur.
I have tried to do that with a raven that didn't even have T2 cruise launchers... normal cruise, NOS, and uber shield tank make it virtually impossible.
Maybe... if the raven didn't have the NOS... It would still take an eternity to break its tank. The raven also might very well be able to tank the DPS infinitly.
The raven is incredibly overpowered... Turrets are incredibly underpowered.
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Lilane
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Posted - 2006.03.20 19:11:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Lilane on 20/03/2006 19:11:39
Originally by: Skylar Keenan
Edited by: Skylar Keenan on 20/03/2006 18:31:24
Ok, why is it people keep assuming that sig radius has an effect on your chance to hit a stationary target ??
A stationnary Frigate sized ship deserve to die 
Dark side of Elegance. |
Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2006.03.20 19:15:00 -
[12]
remove weapons sig resolution... :)
"We brake for nobody"
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.20 19:22:00 -
[13]
"Maybe... if the raven didn't have the NOS... It would still take an eternity to break its tank. The raven also might very well be able to tank the DPS infinitly."
Uhmm, no. As long as you're dealing enough damage to force shield booster run frequent enough, the cap will hit "empty" fast. Cap booster and charges might buy her some extra minutes, but it's very very far from infinite tanking...
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Charlotte Gallfour
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Posted - 2006.03.20 19:23:00 -
[14]
I was in an Atron and my corpmate was in his thorax firing at me at his optimal. We were both standing still. He could not hit me.
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"Let me do the buying while you do the dying." |
Hamatitio
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Posted - 2006.03.20 19:52:00 -
[15]
Cruise IMO are an anti frig - cruiser weapon.
They allow you to run a better tank, while sacrificing a LOT of damage.
Siege launchers cannot fit cruise missiles, so obviously someone who fits cruise missiles is setting up to combat smaller ships.
So you in your tempest could do the same and fit some guns designed for smaller targets... idk.
---
I Post on the forums for Fate. Im cool.
Industrialists wanted |
Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.20 19:58:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Hamatitio
Cruise IMO are an anti frig - cruiser weapon.
They allow you to run a better tank, while sacrificing a LOT of damage.
Siege launchers cannot fit cruise missiles, so obviously someone who fits cruise missiles is setting up to combat smaller ships.
So you in your tempest could do the same and fit some guns designed for smaller targets... idk.
except, the raven gets bonuses to cruise launchers, where-as the tempest doesn't get bonuses to medium autocannons (which seriously need dual bonuses to be half-way useful).
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Hoshi
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Posted - 2006.03.20 19:59:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Lilane
Quote:
Guns hit the target 100% if the tracking is sufficient and you are inside optimal, which is completely unreasonable, since in this stuation I could be in my Tempest at 70+ KM and hit something the size of a tractor trailer with 100% accuracy.
This is not true : signature radius has to be taken into account!
While it has to be taken into account it has no effect what so ever on a stationary target. Signature radius/resolution do not give a seperate to-hit roll, they modifiy the tracking to-hit roll.
Basicly you multiply the tracking with the signature radius divided by signature resolution. Now if the target is standing still you will multiply with 0 (or a very low number of low speed at long ranges). And 0 * anything = 0.
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Recluse XXX
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Posted - 2006.03.20 20:00:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
Oh also just so you know... I solo killed a Tempest with an Ishkur.
I have tried to do that with a raven that didn't even have T2 cruise launchers... normal cruise, NOS, and uber shield tank make it virtually impossible.
Maybe... if the raven didn't have the NOS... It would still take an eternity to break its tank. The raven also might very well be able to tank the DPS infinitly.
The raven is incredibly overpowered... Turrets are incredibly underpowered.
When I read this I think that that the Ishkur is incredibly overpowerd... do you really think it should be possible to kill every battleship in this game whit a tiny little AF???
//Rec
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Edited by: sausage jockey on 01/02/2006 22:02:39
We will not give up until we have penetrated the rear entrance to Stain, we hope this will hurt SA to the point they start to cry.
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Commander Nikolas
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Posted - 2006.03.20 20:56:00 -
[19]
Originally by: j0sephine
"Maybe... if the raven didn't have the NOS... It would still take an eternity to break its tank. The raven also might very well be able to tank the DPS infinitly."
Uhmm, no. As long as you're dealing enough damage to force shield booster run frequent enough, the cap will hit "empty" fast. Cap booster and charges might buy her some extra minutes, but it's very very far from infinite tanking...
I am not sure if I could. If the Raven pilot was smart and keep his shield HP between 33% and 50% (unlike newer pilots who try to keep it at 100% with their booster) had a couple PDUs in the lows. It would be very hard to beat both his passive HP recovery and his cap recharge for the booster.
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Laythun
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Posted - 2006.03.20 21:15:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Recluse XXX
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
Oh also just so you know... I solo killed a Tempest with an Ishkur.
I have tried to do that with a raven that didn't even have T2 cruise launchers... normal cruise, NOS, and uber shield tank make it virtually impossible.
Maybe... if the raven didn't have the NOS... It would still take an eternity to break its tank. The raven also might very well be able to tank the DPS infinitly.
The raven is incredibly overpowered... Turrets are incredibly underpowered.
When I read this I think that that the Ishkur is incredibly overpowerd... do you really think it should be possible to kill every battleship in this game whit a tiny little AF???
//Rec
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Yes..
unskilled BS pilots deserve to die
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If im flaming or not contributing im sorry, but im trying to get into th [23]
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Commander Nikolas
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Posted - 2006.03.20 21:21:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Recluse XXX
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
Oh also just so you know... I solo killed a Tempest with an Ishkur.
I have tried to do that with a raven that didn't even have T2 cruise launchers... normal cruise, NOS, and uber shield tank make it virtually impossible.
Maybe... if the raven didn't have the NOS... It would still take an eternity to break its tank. The raven also might very well be able to tank the DPS infinitly.
The raven is incredibly overpowered... Turrets are incredibly underpowered.
When I read this I think that that the Ishkur is incredibly overpowerd... do you really think it should be possible to kill every battleship in this game whit a tiny little AF???
//Rec
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I like your use of the word "every" in that response. Oh no I am completly mistaken... the raven should be an exception.
The raven already has the best DPS in game with torps, the best tank, is the most resistant BS to jamming, has the longest range weapons in game (cruise), the ability to tank & gank & stab out (for the real Caldari feel)... Giving it the ability to pwn frigates with its cruise missiles and inta pwn them with T2 cruise missles (the easiest T2 large weapons in game to skill for) makes perfect sense!
...............................
The raven has a large set of very unfair advantages and the new missiles and missle changes just gave it more... Every other race has to outfit their ship based on what they are expecting to fight... why do Caldari have such a problem with that? No ship in eve should have 1 uber IWIN button config...
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Hamatitio
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Posted - 2006.03.20 21:27:00 -
[22]
Mega has more dps than a raven... just a raven has decent dps and a decent tank, which no other ship (apart from dommy?) can have.
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I Post on the forums for Fate. Im cool.
Industrialists wanted |
Jarek Naumen
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Posted - 2006.03.20 21:28:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Recluse XXX
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
Oh also just so you know... I solo killed a Tempest with an Ishkur.
I have tried to do that with a raven that didn't even have T2 cruise launchers... normal cruise, NOS, and uber shield tank make it virtually impossible.
Maybe... if the raven didn't have the NOS... It would still take an eternity to break its tank. The raven also might very well be able to tank the DPS infinitly.
The raven is incredibly overpowered... Turrets are incredibly underpowered.
When I read this I think that that the Ishkur is incredibly overpowerd... do you really think it should be possible to kill every battleship in this game whit a tiny little AF???
//Rec
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You won't kill a reasonaby skilled BS pilot with a decent pvp fitting with any AF. You can kill many unskilled BS pilots though...especially with an ishkur.
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Recluse XXX
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Posted - 2006.03.20 21:34:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
I like your use of the word "every" in that response. Oh no I am completly mistaken... the raven should be an exception.
The raven already has the best DPS in game with torps, the best tank, is the most resistant BS to jamming, has the longest range weapons in game (cruise), the ability to tank & gank & stab out (for the real Caldari feel)... Giving it the ability to pwn frigates with its cruise missiles and inta pwn them with T2 cruise missles (the easiest T2 large weapons in game to skill for) makes perfect sense!
...............................
The raven has a large set of very unfair advantages and the new missiles and missle changes just gave it more... Every other race has to outfit their ship based on what they are expecting to fight... why do Caldari have such a problem with that? No ship in eve should have 1 uber IWIN button config...
Nope, I meen that you shouldent be able to solo ANY BS whit an AF...period!
//Rec
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Edited by: sausage jockey on 01/02/2006 22:02:39
We will not give up until we have penetrated the rear entrance to Stain, we hope this will hurt SA to the point they start to cry.
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DayVV4lkEr
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Posted - 2006.03.20 21:43:00 -
[25]
What makes me some kind of wonder is the tracking guide.
At one point is said, that the signature resolution of a weapon must be smaller then the signature radius of the ship then the weapon always hits.
If the Signature Resolution is larger then the ships signature radius then the gun should miss, but it doesn't.
Either the tracking guide is wrong oder the game mechanics
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Recluse XXX
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Posted - 2006.03.20 21:50:00 -
[26]
Everybody is tied up whit the whole your guns should only hit the ships they are designed for well, lets turn the chicken.
A frig starts to shoot at a BS and get this message..."sorry your guns are to tiny to dent this mighty vessle, unlock the target and **** off"
Now thats balance!
//Rec
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Edited by: sausage jockey on 01/02/2006 22:02:39
We will not give up until we have penetrated the rear entrance to Stain, we hope this will hurt SA to the point they start to cry.
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Manion Taleroth
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Posted - 2006.03.20 21:52:00 -
[27]
Originally by: DayVV4lkEr
What makes me some kind of wonder is the tracking guide.
At one point is said, that the signature resolution of a weapon must be smaller then the signature radius of the ship then the weapon always hits.
If the Signature Resolution is larger then the ships signature radius then the gun should miss, but it doesn't.
Either the tracking guide is wrong oder the game mechanics
You need to read right above that part. Where it says that it's multiplied by the tracking modifier.
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Missa Symone
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Posted - 2006.03.20 22:04:00 -
[28]
The battleships that get blown up by a lone AF are the ones piloted by the folks who finished the tutorial and made their first two skills Cruiser and then Battleship. Anyone with say 700k in Engineering and/or Mechanic, along with say 1 million in preferred weapons would have to be AFK to get blown up by a solo AF.
The Raven would obviously be no contest, but no BS should be punked by an AF, even an Ishkur. How in the heck does the AF survive long enough to break the tank of any decently equipped and skilled BS?
Back to the original post, there are so many "poor pilot" assumptions made in the Raven vs Tempest example that your hypothetical Raven pilot would not only lose to a Tempest, they would likely get blown up doing level 1 missions as well.
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One player, too many games |
Dark PIne
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Posted - 2006.03.21 08:19:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Recluse XXX
Nope, I meen that you shouldent be able to solo ANY BS whit an AF...period!
Devs have another opinion about that:
Originally by: Oveur
Do we provide the tools and choice for a battleship to win a single frigate? Yes.
Do we provide the tools and choice for a battleship to win multiple frigates? Yes.
Do we provide the tools and choice for a single frigate to win a battleship? Yes.
Do we provide the tools and choice for multipel frigates to win a battleship? Yes.
So it's all right for a frig to solo a bs in certain situations (like bs set up for mining and frig set up for full gank).
Originally by: Maya Rkell
1v1, for BS, is an abberant situation and you must not balance for it.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.03.21 08:37:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 21/03/2006 08:39:38
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 21/03/2006 08:37:56
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
Oh also just so you know... I solo killed a Tempest with an Ishkur.
I have tried to do that with a raven that didn't even have T2 cruise launchers... normal cruise, NOS, and uber shield tank make it virtually impossible.
Maybe... if the raven didn't have the NOS... It would still take an eternity to break its tank. The raven also might very well be able to tank the DPS infinitly.
The raven is incredibly overpowered... Turrets are incredibly underpowered.
Raven is overpowered because you cant kill it (battleship) in your lonely frigate?
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"Automatic override. Manual control overridden by autopilot. Please wait for operation to complete. You can override the automatic autopilot override in 28 seconds. Then you can make it wait" |
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