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Xavier Azabu
Pwn 'N Play Nulli Secunda
1
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Posted - 2014.01.13 17:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi there. I had a friend sign up for Eve last year and gave him some game time and isk as a gift. While the isk helped him to buy frigs and skillbooks, he had too many frustrations with how "dumbed down" the game felt initially. I told him, "Just train up for a month or two, and we can run some low level missions together. Play for a few more months and maybe you can come out to my alliance or something." Yesterday he told me that he doesn't want to subscribe to Eve because we can only talk about it, not play together quickly like in other games. I thought of two ideas today that might help someone who was in his situation to enjoy the game more quickly.
1. I suggest that CCP - rather than let people buy skillpoints for PLEX as has been often suggested in other threads - should offer a starter pack to players either initially activating their account or upgrading a trial. I'm not sure about a price point. I'd go with 15 USD. What about an activation starter pack that comes with about a month of skillpoints to assign, say 1.5 mil or so? Some players are more intuitive and want to get to fitting and pewing with more than what comes in the tutorial missions right away. My friend described his initial fitting limitations as "beyond irritating" as he is a mechanical engineer IRL and was looking forward to tinkering with his own ship. Using this bonus sp he could have, say, quickly fit an effective destroyer or cruiser.
2. An alternative or addition would be missions run through the player's starting school that offer skillpoints to disperse. These missions could only be completed once by each character. Completing these missions could grant base skillpoints, allowing players to assign a certain amount up to a threshold like 500,000-900,000 sp. (The cost of an alpha clone) Players past another threshold (say 3 million SP?) would not be allowed to do such training missions, thus preventing veteran players from taking advantage of the system.
Veterans making alts would do these missions to quickly create useful alts and newbies could do these missions so that they could actually play with an experienced friend quicker. Being able to play with your friend quicker increases the chances that you'd stay to play the game, unlike my friend.
What about combining these two ideas?
People who are activating an account for the first time could pay that extra price to upgrade their account, create ships that could more easily pew or mine through said skillpoint-granting missions, and then end up with a character with about 2 million SP in a matter of days. I think helping players to get to that mark faster will help to increase the playerbase. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
1746
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Posted - 2014.01.13 18:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
There really is literally no reason that you and a newbie cannot play together from Day 1. I've done it several times with people who I've invited to EVE. |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
48
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Posted - 2014.01.13 18:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
They already have cerebral accelerators, which does quite a bit for a new player.
I think new players should start with a couple of additional skills pre-injected and trained to 1 (so they can play with some fittings).
Other than that I disagree. The moral of Eve is specialized pilots are very useful quickly, while generalized pilots spend forever getting into ships.
Unless your goal is a stealth: Let me very quickly create an army of alpha clone catalyst/thrasher gankers. |
Xavier Azabu
Pwn 'N Play Nulli Secunda
1
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Posted - 2014.01.13 18:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:There really is literally no reason that you and a newbie cannot play together from Day 1. I've done it several times with people who I've invited to EVE.
We "played" together. But none of our interactions really had any meaning towards his goals or my goals. Why does he need my much-more powerful and well-fit ship's DPS when the pirate frigs that he faces barely scratch his ship anyway? What's the point of me helping him out to earn 500 Emp S ammo or a Small Meta 1 whatever mod etc., when I could buy him a hanger full of rifters? (That he can't effectively fly for several weeks) He can't help me on missions to make a meaningful amount of isk together for months.
Why not let the newbros pay to get a headstart? |
Dolorous Tremmens
The Scope Gallente Federation
57
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Posted - 2014.01.13 18:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:There really is literally no reason that you and a newbie cannot play together from Day 1. I've done it several times with people who I've invited to EVE.
I've also done the same, using a spare character slot. It did remind me eve starts off very slow, and is frustrating in the lack of things you can do at a low level of learning. Get some Eve. Make it yours.
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Dolorous Tremmens
The Scope Gallente Federation
57
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Posted - 2014.01.13 18:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Xavier Azabu wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:There really is literally no reason that you and a newbie cannot play together from Day 1. I've done it several times with people who I've invited to EVE. We "played" together. But none of our interactions really had any meaning towards his goals or my goals. Why does he need my much-more powerful and well-fit ship's DPS when the pirate frigs that he faces barely scratch his ship anyway? What's the point of me helping him out to earn 500 Emp S ammo or a Small Meta 1 whatever mod etc., when I could buy him a hanger full of rifters? (That he can't effectively fly for several weeks) Why not let the newbros pay to get a headstart? so invest a couple months worth of sub, and buy a character. it doen't have to be a titan pilot or anything, just enough skills to get into more stuff so that player interactions wouldn't be as one sided.
OTOH, if he works for stuff to learn it, the learning experience sells the game harder ( that is you get sucked in more). Take him missioning with another character, to a l3. go with remote reps in a drone boat. assign drones to him, let him shoot, rep him.
"and theres other stuff we can do" go for a roam in 0.0, and expect to die, but try not to, and then explain the aftermath. Get some Eve. Make it yours.
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Xavier Azabu
Pwn 'N Play Nulli Secunda
1
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Posted - 2014.01.13 18:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
Noxisia Arkana wrote:They already have cerebral accelerators, which does quite a bit for a new player.
I think new players should start with a couple of additional skills pre-injected and trained to 1 (so they can play with some fittings).
Other than that I disagree. The moral of Eve is specialized pilots are very useful quickly, while generalized pilots spend forever getting into ships.
Unless your goal is a stealth: Let me very quickly create an army of alpha clone catalyst/thrasher gankers.
The specialized pilots aren't that useful very quickly. They aren't for several months. Let's be honest - they fly and die even if they put everything into spaceship command skills for PVP. Most decent-sized corps have complicated skillpoint and API requirements. Smaller corps or highsec corps are different but why not help the newbro to be more useful to them as well.
I'm not paying 120 dollars USD to create say 6 accounts to suicide gank in highsec. If someone else wants to sounds fine to me.
Dolorous Tremmens wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:There really is literally no reason that you and a newbie cannot play together from Day 1. I've done it several times with people who I've invited to EVE. I've also done the same, using a spare character slot. It did remind me eve starts off very slow, and is frustrating in the lack of things you can do at a low level of learning.
It's really dreadful. My friend described his first week as confusing, limited, and torturous but occasionally "the space was beautiful." |
Xavier Azabu
Pwn 'N Play Nulli Secunda
1
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Posted - 2014.01.13 18:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Dolorous Tremmens wrote:Xavier Azabu wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:There really is literally no reason that you and a newbie cannot play together from Day 1. I've done it several times with people who I've invited to EVE. We "played" together. But none of our interactions really had any meaning towards his goals or my goals. Why does he need my much-more powerful and well-fit ship's DPS when the pirate frigs that he faces barely scratch his ship anyway? What's the point of me helping him out to earn 500 Emp S ammo or a Small Meta 1 whatever mod etc., when I could buy him a hanger full of rifters? (That he can't effectively fly for several weeks) Why not let the newbros pay to get a headstart? so invest a couple months worth of sub, and buy a character. it doen't have to be a titan pilot or anything, just enough skills to get into more stuff so that player interactions wouldn't be as one sided. OTOH, if he works for stuff to learn it, the learning experience sells the game harder ( that is you get sucked in more). Take him missioning with another character, to a l3. go with remote reps in a drone boat. assign drones to him, let him shoot, rep him. "and theres other stuff we can do" go for a roam in 0.0, and expect to die, but try not to, and then explain the aftermath.
For a new player, creating their own toon is part of the experience as well. I don't think that buying a toon is a solution to the problems.
I think that making players work for things does hook some to EVE. But at that early stage it is just too grueling. It's not just grinding like in other MMOs - it's grinding and waiting for months. Players still have to work quite a bit at that 1-3 mil sp mark. But giving new accounts more tools to work with is what I'm suggesting. |
Dolorous Tremmens
The Scope Gallente Federation
58
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Posted - 2014.01.13 18:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Its both dull and overwhelmingly complex for new players, so many items, so many windows to watch at the same time. I spent incredible amounts of time when I started just reading all the info tabs on items. There are things that would make it easier, like l1 and l2 mission basic ship fits for t1. not providing modules, but just the fitting so there is less messing around. Newbro ship contracts that provide the ship and fittings for the various missions of that level ( just one and 2), so the ship fits can be just dragged and dropped.
The market interface is a scary, daunting thing to a newbie, so much stuff. if tutorial missions provide you with a module and a skill to use for a mission, could they also link a fit, with an mod by mod explanation. if you give reasons and logical steps to building a ship, people would skill into the stuff they felt was the most important point of the explanation.
I still remember trying to fit shield boosters, armor reppers AND hull reppers on the same velator my first few days. Then I grasped armor tanking, and it was freaky, letting the shields just fall away like that, and let the armor tank work.
CQ informative movies/ "communications" can help with a bit more of a humanizing feel, and you won't feel harassed by an inhuman voice. EVA sounds like a bored disclaimer reader of a PA system.
"you don't have to fit all three, pick one, and then work with that. now look how it fits, and if we add this or that, note the armor increase, and if we add another, not the diminishing returns. now, you have some decent tanking ability, but you have to keep it powered so.."
Get some Eve. Make it yours.
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Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1308
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Posted - 2014.01.13 18:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
I don't like the OP's suggestion, but the problem he proposed is a legitimate annoyance. "Oh cool, I can fit this mod to slow stuff down so that I can control range easier. I'll just put this on-oh. Guess I'll wait 20 minutes for this skill to train to I so I can fit a web".
Characters should probably start with a more substantial array of skills trained to I so that they can at least fit some basic stuff to their early ships before being explicitly told to by the tutorial. |
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Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
963
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Posted - 2014.01.13 19:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:I don't like the OP's suggestion, but the problem he proposed is a legitimate annoyance. "Oh cool, I can fit this mod to slow stuff down so that I can control range easier. I'll just put this on-oh. Guess I'll wait 20 minutes for this skill to train to I so I can fit a web".
Characters should probably start with a more substantial array of skills trained to I so that they can at least fit some basic stuff to their early ships before being explicitly told to by the tutorial.
Then you buy the book and raelise you also need CPU management III to train it so you add a few hours on top of that. |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16453
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Posted - 2014.01.13 19:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
Why is it new players think they need lots of SP fast in order to learn the game and be a part of it? Because they are misinformed by other players, or not told how they can be a part of Eve early on.
The game is massive and complex, yet for some reason some players think the only way to compete or play is more SP. No, it about having friends who will guide them, or finding starter corps like Eve uni to give them a helping hand.
The funniest thing I read, was this.....
Quote:We "played" together. But none of our interactions really had any meaning towards his goals or my goals. Any meaning to your goals? Really? Here he is a new player needing some guidance and you're thinking about your goals?
What you should have been doing, is pointing out how he can achieve his better. Explaining scams, how to fly through certain areas of space and the do's and don'ts or Eve you have learned. There are a multitude of things he could learn and one of those is that he CAN be useful in a frig with little SP.
This whole 'I want SP now so I can play' really naffs me off. I was in stain within 4 months when I started, with little to no knowledge or SP, but oh boy did I have fun. (Not this char)
Yes I know I ranted a little.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Xavier Azabu
Pwn 'N Play Nulli Secunda
1
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Posted - 2014.01.13 20:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Why is it new players think they need lots of SP fast in order to learn the game and be a part of it? Because they are misinformed by other players, or not told how they can be a part of Eve early on. The game is massive and complex, yet for some reason some players think the only way to compete or play is more SP. No, it about having friends who will guide them, or finding starter corps like Eve uni to give them a helping hand. The funniest thing I read, was this..... Quote:We "played" together. But none of our interactions really had any meaning towards his goals or my goals. Any meaning to your goals? Really? Here he is a new player needing some guidance and you're thinking about your goals? What you should have been doing, is pointing out how he can achieve his better. Explaining scams, how to fly through certain areas of space and the do's and don'ts or Eve you have learned. There are a multitude of things he could learn and one of those is that he CAN be useful in a frig with little SP. This whole ' I want SP now so I can play' really naffs me off. I was in stain within 4 months when I started, with little to no knowledge or SP, but oh boy did I have fun. (Not this char) Yes I know I ranted a little.
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HiddenPorpoise
BG-1 The Craniac
148
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Posted - 2014.01.13 20:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
"Plex for SP is bad but Plex for SP is good" |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1309
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Posted - 2014.01.13 20:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Quote:And in most other games you are wondering what someone else brings to the team. Look at other MMOs, RTS, etc., I do PVP. But I was looking at at least a month before he could fly a decent tackler. There is no gratification for that for him. "Oh yeah, eventually we'll see each other in space." And if he focuses entirely on that with his training, then what?
It does not take anywhere close to a month to fly a decent tackler. |
Xavier Azabu
Pwn 'N Play Nulli Secunda
1
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Posted - 2014.01.13 20:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
HiddenPorpoise wrote:"Plex for SP is bad but Plex for SP is good"
Money for a headstart on SP, to help players who aren't hardcore enough to wait around and endure through that first month. This is not PLEX for SP. This would not benefit players past a certain point. It does resemble the Cerebral Accelerator. But it doesn't make the player go through the hoops to figure out how to use that thing to wait less. Just new account - extra skill points - more to do - profit. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
350
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Posted - 2014.01.13 20:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
It is funny how some things come back around.
Once, long ago, you got free skills allocated to you by your choices in character creation. Being Gallente got you some basic frigate and fitting skills, the bloodlines granted q few, your chioce of school a few more, and then your educational specialty capped it off.
People complained that this led to wasted skills (somehow, they were free after all), and all those choices got turned to fluff because now you start with nothing and everyone gets whatever they want from the tutorial, but they have to train it... Though the first million or so is at double speed.
You can thank those people for not being able to fit basic guns on gour newbie frigate at character creation.
My idea has long been to create implant sets that allow set levels of competance. Equivelant of level 1 in everthing that affects a hull would be cheap, Level 4 would be several hundred million into the billions depending on ship. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
4700
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Posted - 2014.01.13 21:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
Way back in the day I was an industrialist-miner. I was then brought into faction warfare. With less than a week of combat skills under my belt I was running as "hero tackle" (see: "suicide tackle"). Needless to say, I died. A lot. And I did get discouraged sometimes. But I also LEARNED.
Through my many deaths I learned... - how tracking works - how tanking works - how to guage targets - how to scout properly - how to stay alive - how to take all of the above knowledge and turn it around on someone else.
This game isn't about earning skillpoints until you can "do something well." It's about doing things regardless and figuring out how to get around your limitations with the limited resources you have.
You should have dragged your friend into your alliance on a "temp" basis and showed him the ropes in the most dangerius places possible. Survival should not be priority. Getting used to death would be. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
9170
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Posted - 2014.01.13 21:26:00 -
[19] - Quote
Giving unallocated SP to new players is bad idea.
Sure, it works in theory because everyone who trains an alt can instantly get that alt into a mining barge or a cheapo gank catalyst hero.
But a true noob will waste all that unallocated SP on the wrong skills, and STILL be completely useless. Woo! I trained Gunnery to 5! Wait... why cant I shoot missiles?!??!?!
People appreciate the game more when they have to work at being good at it. Giving stuff away only leads to more entitlement and people asking for more free stuff. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Xavier Azabu
Pwn 'N Play Nulli Secunda
1
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Posted - 2014.01.13 21:28:00 -
[20] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Way back in the day I was an industrialist-miner. I was then brought into faction warfare. With less than a week of combat skills under my belt I was running as "hero tackle" (see: "suicide tackle"). Needless to say, I died. A lot. And I did get discouraged sometimes. But I also LEARNED.
Through my many deaths I learned... - how tracking works - how tanking works - how to guage targets - how to scout properly - how to stay alive - how to take all of the above knowledge and turn it around on someone else.
This game isn't about earning skillpoints until you can "do something well." It's about doing things regardless and figuring out how to get around your limitations with the limited resources you have.
You should have dragged your friend into your alliance on a "temp" basis and showed him the ropes in the most dangerius places possible. Survival should not be priority. Getting used to death would be.
Great points. But I'm trying to think from his perspective. What does he get from doing all of that? What's the point? Where's the sense of accomplishment? As higher sp players who have experiences like yours and mine, it's easy for us to understand why we had to go through some trial and error - especially with PVP. But he looks at it as "Hey you seem to like this game a lot so I'll try it out." And then "What the heck am I supposed to do with next to nothing for the next few months while you have all this stuff?" And as I train more, the gap between us widens.
I mean, I can go over and play Wargame or Civ with him and instantly he has all of the same units to choose from and we're more or less on an even level playing with the sandbox. With Eve, he won't be near my level with combat for months. I know that the comparision crosses game genre boundaries but, do you see my point? I'd want him to at least feel capable of fitting out those suicide frigs decently before bursting into flames repeatedly.
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Karen Avioras
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
139
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Posted - 2014.01.13 21:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
give him monies and send him to RvB pew pew pew |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
512
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Posted - 2014.01.13 22:14:00 -
[22] - Quote
buy him a char , easy no need for more newbie boosts |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1309
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Posted - 2014.01.13 22:29:00 -
[23] - Quote
Quote:I would disagree with you. The key word is decent. Sure someone can hop into an Atron with Meta 4 everything and rigs in a few weeks - but it will die in a ball of fire. I'm talking Interceptors or Assault Frigates that make someone feel specialized.
To top it off, if you don't have friends, you need a way to get all of the skillbooks and modules. And you have to do your homework like crazy. So it does take about a month before you can use that Atron or Slasher good enough to be of use to a corp. And then that is what you do in the game almost exclusively.
If you can't do anything productive in a t1 frigate then the problem is you, not the ship. |
Leoric Firesword
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
7
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Posted - 2014.01.13 22:54:00 -
[24] - Quote
Xavier Azabu wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:There really is literally no reason that you and a newbie cannot play together from Day 1. I've done it several times with people who I've invited to EVE. We "played" together. But none of our interactions really had any meaning towards his goals or my goals. Why does he need my much-more powerful and well-fit ship's DPS when the pirate frigs that he faces barely scratch his ship anyway? What's the point of me helping him out to earn 500 Emp S ammo or a Small Meta 1 whatever mod etc., when I could buy him a hanger full of rifters? (That he can't effectively fly for several weeks) He can't help me on missions to make a meaningful amount of isk together for months.
hmm...I was in a battle ship paying for my account in plex within 2 months of starting the game, so my advice to your friend? HTFU |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
1752
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Posted - 2014.01.14 07:20:00 -
[25] - Quote
"What's the point of being hero tackle? Where's the sense of accomplishment?"
Ask Goons. They have an amazing recruitment poster that, while somewhat of an extreme example, is still completely true and entirely possible. That newbie may just be the hero tackle who secures victory in a battle that chain-reacts into winning the entire war. I don't have a link to the poster handy, though. |
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
177
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Posted - 2014.01.14 09:02:00 -
[26] - Quote
Player with lower SP who kills other Players with higher SP should gain some extra SPs!
*runsaway* muahahahahhahahahahh!!!! |
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