Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Sigras
Conglomo
655
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 09:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
I feel like this may be an unforseen consequence of TiDi rather than a balance issue, but what counters a fleet of carriers this large?
They usually have ECCM like crazy, and if there are only 200 archons in that blob (lets face it, thats a conservative estimate), thats 11.4 bhaalgorn hours of neuting without considering that they can cap transfer each other to generate cap from nowhere.
This seems like a job for the almighty Titan; it's the king of alpha strike and will be able to rip those carriers down one by one, but of course nobody is just going to cyno in a titan alone, so youre also going to bring in a support fleet.
The problem is simply a matter of time. All of these ships in local are going to cause a lot of lag, and at 10% TiDi, 5 hours IRL becomes 30 minutes in game. This means that you will get a maximum of 6 DDs off killing a whooping 6 carriers in 5 hours, so in order for you to kill all 200 carriers, you would need 34 titans, and it would still take you all of the 5 hours. This not to mention that you are risking nearly 8 times the ISK value in titans alone to make this happen.
The problem is that once you have a sufficiently large slowcat fleet, if one of your pilots makes a mistake, you only need to bring in a few hundred slow cats and rep until down time which is made possible by TiDi slowing everything down, nothing will die unless they have a large enough fleet to alpha strike the titan/supercarrier that made the mistake.
We know this is the case because that was exactly PL's plan when test screwed up in Z9PP-H. Of course we never got to see this in action because of CCP shenanigans, but should this be a viable tactic?
Thoughts? Comments? |
Sid Crash
93
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 10:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
More of the same, just as CCP likes it. |
Sola Mercury
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
58
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 11:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
keep the bubbles up, so they cant leave, and attack somewhere else? |
Oska Rus
Free Ice Cream People
136
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 11:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
I think that similarily large dread fleet (10k+ DPS each) should be able to kill slowcats (4k rep 0.5k dps each). Dreads in siege will suffer losses but its war. If archons swith to triage (15k rep each) you just primary triaged ones which cant be repped remotely. |
To mare
Advanced Technology
355
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 12:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
Oska Rus wrote:I think that similarily large dread fleet (10k+ DPS each) should be able to kill slowcats (4k rep 0.5k dps each). Dreads in siege will suffer losses but its war. If archons swith to triage (15k rep each) you just primary triaged ones which cant be repped remotely. carriers can be remote repped dreads in siege cannot. carriers can focus fire much better than dreads because of drone assist carriers can stay aligned and warp out dreads are stuck. dreads have much higher dps and if they focus fire they can volley a carrier. lol at triage carriers in a big fleet |
Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
117
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 14:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
200 Titans + support fleet. |
Huttan Funaila
Terminal Radioactivity Spaceship Samurai
361
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 15:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
Congratulations, you have discovered the complaint of the month - slowcats and sentry drones..
In another post, I mention 4 tactics for dealing with the blobs: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4117162#post4117162
Many nullsec fleet doctrines have "cat" at the end because Shadoo likes cats. So there. |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
139
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 15:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
A question from seeing that image. How is color coding in overview tabs enabled? |
Kosetzu
S1lver Flame
99
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 17:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:A question from seeing that image. How is color coding in overview tabs enabled?
<.color=.something.><./color.> Simple really, just remove the ... because HTML can't be directly posted to the forum =) Only certain colours work though, so nothing like dark green works.
As for what can counter slowcats, goons are making their artillery Naglars now (Omegafleet), Megathron fleet and Domi fleet has both worked out in the past as well. You would need 2 titans to doomsday the same carrier as they would likely be DD tanked to prevent one DD from killing it. Chimeras are also tougher than Archons I believe, at least there hasn't been any of them lost from a similar doctrine (I believe). |
Kat Bandeis
Laboratoires Armageddon 1121 Ventures
15
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 17:54:00 -
[10] - Quote
Quote:What is the counter to a large carrier + Titan fleet?
A second monitor with Hulu or Netflix running while you sit around waiting for your ship to move in 90% TiDi... |
|
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
714
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 17:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
big enough alpha fleet outside of their sentries reach will kill them one by one. Yes, it will lag like hell but, well, thats always the thing mass battles will run into. |
Anya Klibor
Insanely Twisted D3vil's Childr3n
632
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 18:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
SHUT UP GOONS WE'RE NOT DOING YOUR WORK FOR YOU MITTANI IS SUPPOSED TO COME UP WITH THIS **** FOR YOU TO WIN |
Kat Bandeis
Laboratoires Armageddon 1121 Ventures
16
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 19:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
Anya Klibor wrote:SHUT UP GOONS WE'RE NOT DOING YOUR WORK FOR YOU MITTANI IS SUPPOSED TO COME UP WITH THIS **** FOR YOU TO WIN
That didn't sound butt-hurt at all... |
Praxis Ginimic
Vessels of the Line Bask of Fail
745
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 20:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
Node crashes seem to do it |
Raine Marelwe
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 12:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sigras wrote:What is the counter to a large carrier + Titan fleet??
The CFC brings us one answer to this conundrum: Cry about it anywhere and everywhere you can, at every opportunity, to as many people as possible. Ensure you have some seats on the CSM, and/or that some devs used to be members of your corp/alliance/coalition. Author whiny articles on every propaganda outlet you have access to. Basically, cause a big enough PR stink, and you can motivate CCP to step in and solve your problems for you by changing the rules of the game itself. (see impending OmniLink nerf)
Alternatively:
Sola Mercury wrote:keep the bubbles up, so they cant leave, and attack somewhere else?
This classic strategy - or slightly different flavors of it, such as a coordinated, many-pronged invasion - requires a massive numerical advantage to truly apply any pressure. Weight of numbers is an asset that the CFC regularly capitalizes on in lieu of inspired, novel or unique tactics, so it is doubly interesting that they deflect this suggestion whenever faced with it, if they indeed acknowledge that it was floated at all. The best I've gotten is different variations on "But that would be really hard, because timers". I have tentatively concluded that, in actuality, they decided that a political campaign would achieve their goals in a much simpler and more cost-efficient manner. |
Viviseciant
Kalypso Security Services Inc
4
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 19:42:00 -
[16] - Quote
Sola Mercury wrote:keep the bubbles up, so they cant leave, and attack somewhere else?
Lol. Great minds. Pick a system and trade em. So many caps tied up should be undefended territory somewhere. No? |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
37
|
Posted - 2014.01.19 02:38:00 -
[17] - Quote
Sola Mercury wrote:keep the bubbles up, so they cant leave, and attack somewhere else? Just as Sun Tzu said! Attack where the enemy is not.
War is an economic tool to profits, not a tool to get glory for winning epic battles. So if the enemy gathers hundreds of capitals in one spot (preferably because you tricked them into going to a time and place of your choosing) means you can accomplish something elsewhere. heck, you can probably win a battle if an enemy fleet of 200+ carriers attack something of yours that is valuable, if you have a fleet ready to attack something of value to them. Then they can disengage to go defend their valuable asset while you just then protected yours without firing a shot. You can also just goad the enemy to travel all over the universe in search of your forces and then never giving them a fight, that is very demoralizing for their pilots and will decrease fleet size considerably over time. Taking a system from the enemy while they take one from you and never going for a huge confrontation is also a possible tool for exhausting pilots and depleting morale. If you do it right it happens faster to the enemy than to your own forces, and then it doesn't matter how many capitals the enemy have, because they aren't flying.
I think I'm right in saying that not a single war in Eve was won because one side got all or most of their ships destroyed. So don't be so quick to think in terms of "how to destroy the enemy fleet?" when the problem at hand is really "how to take over their territory in such a way that they don't bother to take it back?". If you can take their territory by not ever confronting their huge fleets, you don't ever confront their huge fleets.
PS: You may use glory to raise morale so your pilots turn up to battles when you need them to, but as the commander you should be immune to the wanting of glory. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
2663
|
Posted - 2014.01.19 13:40:00 -
[18] - Quote
As in many strategy games, don't let your enemy get to the point when they have this force. Murder anyone threatening your space before they can grow too big. |
Akatori Nalelmir
Blue-Fire
2
|
Posted - 2014.01.20 14:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
If the CFC brought their Mael fleet instead of domis, they would have won.
I'm pretty sure 900 arty maels could alpha a single archon. This is a lot cheaper than risking a bunch of titans, and it would bring mittens and the rest of the CFC's guys upstairs great satisfaction as they used their beloved sub-caps to batter a slowcat fleet, rather than forcing a capital escalation.
Sebo and tracking computers with range scripts would put you outside of the Sentry drone range, if the the slowcats supporting subcaps came to shoot you, they would have 0 traversal against an arty mael blob....you'd batter the subcaps too.
This all said I'm just an armchair general in all this, null is for carebears. LONG LIVE W-SPACE |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1149
|
Posted - 2014.01.20 15:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
Sigras wrote:I feel like this may be an unforseen consequence of TiDi rather than a balance issue, but what counters a fleet of carriers this large? They usually have ECCM like crazy, and if there are only 200 archons in that blob (lets face it, thats a conservative estimate), thats 11.4 bhaalgorn hours of neuting without considering that they can cap transfer each other to generate cap from nowhere. This seems like a job for the almighty Titan; it's the king of alpha strike and will be able to rip those carriers down one by one, but of course nobody is just going to cyno in a titan alone, so youre also going to bring in a support fleet. The problem is simply a matter of time. All of these ships in local are going to cause a lot of lag, and at 10% TiDi, 5 hours IRL becomes 30 minutes in game. This means that you will get a maximum of 6 DDs off killing a whooping 6 carriers in 5 hours, so in order for you to kill all 200 carriers, you would need 34 titans, and it would still take you all of the 5 hours. This not to mention that you are risking nearly 8 times the ISK value in titans alone to make this happen. The problem is that once you have a sufficiently large slowcat fleet, if one of your pilots makes a mistake, you only need to bring in a few hundred slow cats and rep until down time which is made possible by TiDi slowing everything down, nothing will die unless they have a large enough fleet to alpha strike the titan/supercarrier that made the mistake. We know this is the case because that was exactly PL's plan when test screwed up in Z9PP-H. Of course we never got to see this in action because of CCP shenanigans, but should this be a viable tactic? Thoughts? Comments?
arrive on grid BEFORE they do.. and with 3500 members.
Voi+í... battle has been won!
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
|
Secret Squirrell
Allied Press Intergalactic
66
|
Posted - 2014.01.20 17:54:00 -
[21] - Quote
System Cyno Jammer... Well we know what went wrong there...
Attacking somewhere else while they are committed. Doesn't serve the CFC meta gaming agenda. Requires too many FCs, and too much commitment from the membership to grind multiple regions in subcaps, caps too risky if the enemy fleet breaks free.
War of attrition (Carrier fleet usually looses 1-2 each time it extracts). Too slow and boring, also doesn't fit the CFC meta gaming agenda. |
Sigras
Conglomo
660
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 09:59:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ronny Hugo wrote:Sola Mercury wrote:keep the bubbles up, so they cant leave, and attack somewhere else? Just as Sun Tzu said! Attack where the enemy is not. All due respect to Sun Tzu, what if you're on defense?
I mean look at this last battle, -A- could have attacked all the PL assets they wanted if they could locate a soft target within PL (good luck) but they still would have lost HED-GP.
Fabian tactics dont work in a game where one JF can teleport in with no danger and resupply your whole fleet for a week.
Ronny Hugo wrote:I think I'm right in saying that not a single war in Eve was won because one side got all or most of their ships destroyed. So don't be so quick to think in terms of "how to destroy the enemy fleet?" when the problem at hand is really "how to take over their territory in such a way that they don't bother to take it back?". If you can take their territory by not ever confronting their huge fleets, you don't ever confront their huge fleets. I think the fountain war of the CFC and Test Alliance was a war won by destroying all their ships. And what I mean by that is they could not afford combat ready ships any more. After a few battles they were flying nothing but trash and relying on their allies to help them.
Also again you have the problem of being on defense, whats the plan? make your space unappealing so maybe they wont want it? |
Sigras
Conglomo
660
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 10:08:00 -
[23] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:As in many strategy games, don't let your enemy get to the point when they have this force. Murder anyone threatening your space before they can grow too big. Great idea! Let me get in my TARDIS and go back to 2007 in order to do that . . . |
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |