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Tico
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Posted - 2003.09.11 22:56:00 -
[1]
For those of you that have used Mobile Refineries what have you gotten for 1 refine.
A Corp mate of mine did 1 refine of 500 Omber and this is what he got:
19 Tritanium
7 Pyerite
19 Isogen
I'm sorry but if this is what is to be execpted of the mobile refineries then I don't think it is worth it. I just hope this may be a bug or even an oversight.
Does anyone know if the refineries are going to work the same as station refineries or will there be a lose of minerals with the mobile ref's?
Please don't flame me too bad!!
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Myrmex
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Posted - 2003.09.12 04:13:00 -
[2]
i think i heard there will be a skill involved with the yield it gives other than refenining and refni8ng efficiency ... anyway why would a mobile refenery who fit in an indy do the same job as a refenery inside a station..
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CT BadIronTree
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Posted - 2003.09.12 07:27:00 -
[3]
yes i was there
propably a bug....
they sould give less minerals.. but this is rediculus
============================================
Colossus Technologies
The first and oldest corp in eve!
BadIronTree Head of Production
CSM Chat Log September 25, 2003:
Fuhry> Some things we simply cannot test, and therefore we just put it on Tranq. cross our fingers and then get into panic mode.
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playing (or beta testing)since Sat, 2 Nov 2002 16:06 (beta 5)
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2003.09.12 11:54:00 -
[4]
Why should they give less minerals in your opinion?
Someone had to buy the platform still, and you think the builders of such a platform would advertise selling it to you at 'and you get less out then you do using any other refineries'? ;) ;)
Refining, plain and simple, is a process of extracting B from A. Not much more. If you have the skill to extract more, then good for you. You spent time achieving that.
You don't think these things are going to be free to you? Probably going to cost millions each to buy, and you might need more then one over time. Those purchase costs have to be accomodated for in time, or you are running at a negative. Also, you have the skills to acount for as well before you can use them.
If its mobile, its designed to do exactly the same job but also be relocated. :)
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Shock
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Posted - 2003.09.12 14:29:00 -
[5]
Very simple, a mobile refinery should by definition be less efficient then the one of a station.
I mean after you have one, what's then the point in using the station's one?
You should only use it when you make more money if the less efficient refining makes up for the lesser travelling time.
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soonÖ |
Roba
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Posted - 2003.09.12 15:51:00 -
[6]
Ummmm... Main reason. These are ment for 0.0 Space where there are no stations for like 10 jumps even 50 in some cases.
That lesser mins **** is a bit harsh. People will not be using these in 1.0 space out in roid belts. Its just not economical.
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Arch Aggelos
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Posted - 2003.09.13 19:06:00 -
[7]
 Quote:
Someone had to buy the platform still, and you think the builders of such a platform would advertise selling it to you at 'and you get less out then you do using any other refineries'? ;) ;)
No, they wouldn't advertise the fact that their refineries don't get as many minerals, what they would advertise is the convenience of being able allow you to mine efficiently many jumps from a station. If you lose 10% yield, but don't have to have half your mining crew function as haulers to get your super-huge bistot the 10 jumps back to the station you'll end up with a greater isk/hour ratio.
Allowing them to refine at the same level stations do would be unbalanced.
The levels described in this post are pretty borked though...
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Mustafa Ken'Yova
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Posted - 2003.09.13 23:38:00 -
[8]
I know that I spent a LOT of time training refining to L5 and refinery efficiency to L5, so I would *hope* that they increase yield on mobile refineries as well. I mean the latter of those skills has "refinery" in it so one would think it would have to deal with mobile "refineries" if anything, rather than the "reprocess" tab in the stations.
Please, someone tell me if I am overlooking something in this analysis.
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Roba
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Posted - 2003.09.13 23:46:00 -
[9]
Quote:
Quote:
Someone had to buy the platform still, and you think the builders of such a platform would advertise selling it to you at 'and you get less out then you do using any other refineries'? ;) ;)
No, they wouldn't advertise the fact that their refineries don't get as many minerals, what they would advertise is the convenience of being able allow you to mine efficiently many jumps from a station. If you lose 10% yield, but don't have to have half your mining crew function as haulers to get your super-huge bistot the 10 jumps back to the station you'll end up with a greater isk/hour ratio.
Allowing them to refine at the same level stations do would be unbalanced.
The levels described in this post are pretty borked though...
Yah but dude it currently is something closer to 90%, not 10%.
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Knaar
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Posted - 2003.09.14 00:43:00 -
[10]
I think they should yield less, but not by much... max 30% less than what you would get in a station with the same skills in refining and refinery efficiency. And that should be able to get pretty darn close to 0% if the mobile refinery skill is at level 5.
So, let's say at level 0 in mobile refining you refine 30% less than in a station with the same refining skills. Then with mobile refining maxxed out you get only 5% less. Mobile refining being a rank 8 or so skill, that is.
Otherwise, mobile refining would be too much of an advantage for bistot miners and the lot that mine in 0.0 space. Minerals are TONS smaller than ore is, and the bistot crop you could get would be insane if mobile refineries were too good.
Then again, you don't want the loss too extreme or people won't use them, preferring instead to take their ore to a station to be refined. I know I try to squeeze every little percent I can out of refining.
Knaar
Director of Trade and Production
Hosokawa Incorporated |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.14 01:40:00 -
[11]
Quote:
...
Otherwise, mobile refining would be too much of an advantage for bistot miners and the lot that mine in 0.0 space. Minerals are TONS smaller than ore is, and the bistot crop you could get would be insane if mobile refineries were too good.
Don't worry...Pirates will take care of that.
CCP is fattening the lambs...er, I mean, industrials for the slaughter 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Other Minion
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Posted - 2003.09.14 02:28:00 -
[12]
Yes the carebear 1.0 spacers need to remember that using a mobile refinery in 0.0 space is a high risk. I mean m0o and other pirate corps will be having some serious fun with this next patch. Blowing refineiers right out from under the noses of sleepy miners. Also its not like the refinery will be out in a roid belt right beside you. Its gonna end up just like a station. Mine your mins, warp to it, refine. Its really not safe to deploy somehting like that in a roid belt. With all the CTDs and other crap that come up.
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NGRU Vulture
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Posted - 2003.09.14 05:23:00 -
[13]
Edited by: NGRU Vulture on 14/09/2003 05:25:20
Quote:
Ummmm... Main reason. These are ment for 0.0 Space where there are no stations for like 10 jumps even 50 in some cases.
That lesser mins **** is a bit harsh. People will not be using these in 1.0 space out in roid belts. Its just not economical.
Roba you right and i see we all agre it need to yeld less minerals then Stationary refinery but not that less comon 80-90% less it mean all purpose of mobile refinery go puhhhh yes you can take it deep in space and keep your little operation going but at present situation with Bistot all those small rocks , you need yeld efficiency, my be not exact 100 % but no more then 15-30% lesss ( will depend on your skills) other wise it like "trying to bite your own tale" we will run in circle, it will make no differents make 20 jumps with 3 Indys and refine load of bistot or sit in same location for like 2-3 days longer trying to make same amount of Megacyte or other rare mineral. Even 20, some times 40 jumps will be faster 
Diplomacy it art of saing "good dogy" until you can find a big rock. |
Other Minion
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Posted - 2003.09.14 06:38:00 -
[14]
Agreed. Also there is the fact that you need to haul the mobile refinery out there in an indy. Oh and don't tell me you could just put it in say an armageddon with expanders (1500m3 cargo) because you will need to haul not just the refinery home but the minerals you leave with.
I really see mobile refinerys as more of a home away from home for large corp mining ops in deep space. 30 or so jumps out or maybe even more. Sorta like setting up camp. Setup a mobile refinery, Mobile Docking Bay, and a perimiter of 10 sent guns. Oh and some Huge secure containers to store the minerals and equipment. Now your mining group is set for about a week. Then they can pack up and haul back to empire space with the megactye which is much needed in ship building in empire space at the moment.
Also don't say this will affect the n00b corps in empire space with the mega corps shipping in megacyte in the masses for ship building. Smaller corps and carebear corps make crusiers and crap. The large corps make Battleships which suck megacyte. Also with the current chaos in 0.0 space the large corps are needing alot of megacyte to rebuiuld their fleets after these recent battles. Ie FA losing what 27 battleships the other day.
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Fencer
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Posted - 2003.09.14 19:57:00 -
[15]
got question for you who are testing these? can these refinerys also recycle items like the station refinery's do?
and what is cost of these little goodies. just an idea. need to start saving
My alt hates me, I don't know why. he won't even talk to me anymore |
Lord Azraiel
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Posted - 2003.09.14 23:36:00 -
[16]
Maybe have different refineries with better and worse abilities to refine effectively.
"I'm comin' for ya, and Hell's comin' with me!" |
Shimrod
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Posted - 2003.09.15 04:05:00 -
[17]
I do agree the mobile refinery is cool but if the baby roid problem is still there who cares...I mined 7 belts in one system strait after monday downtime last week to recieve about 1k of bistot.
Now someone tell me the point in hauling a refinery and indys and protection 23 jumps for that.
My two cents
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Tico
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Posted - 2003.09.15 04:17:00 -
[18]
The refineries can only refine ore, cannot refine items.
But that would be cool if they did recycle items. So you wouldn't have to carry all that worthless junk of loot back or just leave it there for someone else to claim.
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Bon3s
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Posted - 2003.09.15 09:24:00 -
[19]
Refine in a mobile Refinery must be the same like a station. No penalty.
When penalty is to big, you better hunt and buy the minerals instead of mining them.
Thats my idea.
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HaloOdeath
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Posted - 2003.09.15 11:55:00 -
[20]
Sure is gonna be nice that you can deploy Sentry turrets and Warp field generatos along with your mobile refinery station. Watch the unclassified Dev clip... it shows all that will happen with the refineries... If it is setup properly... them PC pirates will have a little bit of a challenge destroying one...
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Zinke
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Posted - 2003.09.15 13:03:00 -
[21]
I think that mobile refinery should not have any penalties.
Output should be exactly same as with station refining.
Its probably going to be penalty enough to have one, deploy one and to protect one and all that 30-100 jumps from closest station.
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Zucker Artson
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Posted - 2003.09.15 14:23:00 -
[22]
I would be curious what skills the dude has that tried to refine? I
f he has refining 0 refining effiency 0 and just mobile refining 1 I wouldn't mind the yield being this low.
What I would imagine for example it that for each level of Mobile refinery operation you would get another 15% base refining, so someone with this skill at 5 would be equally efficient in base as in a mobile refiner.
Ofcourse all other refining skills should apply as well.
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Demangel
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Posted - 2003.09.15 14:24:00 -
[23]
I agree, A small Reduction in efficiency is perfect, but the numbers above are jawdroppingly lame. even if your skill with the thing is level 1!
At most it should be 10-20% less than stations, at the absolute MOST, and even that is pushing it... Either that or each level of the skill better raise it by like 18%-20% or something.
so that by level 5 your refining at 90%-100% of a staions efficiency.
Again for the record, if those number are accurate, I want some of what CCP is smokin... I'd rather face a legion of elite exploiter style pirates can spamming and lag killing my mining team to get to a station, than use this wasteful toilet bowl version of a Refinery...
In fact I'd jettison all my ore and use the can and the refinery for target practice...
Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you
Demangel > Dude... I would call..
Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet.
Galaxion > Just a bit.
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NeoMorph
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Posted - 2003.09.15 21:46:00 -
[24]
It would make sense to have "Mobile Refinery Operation" link to the amount of minerals you get...
Maybe like this
lvl 1 = -20% off your Refine/Refine Efficiency level
lvl 2 = -15%
lvl 3 = -10%
lvl 4 = -5%
lvl 5 = No loss
Would make sense that way I think.
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<Stavros> the first motor bike i ever rode
<Stavros> was a honda gold wing
<Ak-Gara> hah
<Stavros> |
TFC Grimwill
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Posted - 2003.09.16 01:43:00 -
[25]
You guys who do not want to have a low percentage loss are not taking something very important into account. These refineries will allow all miners to mine 0.0 belts and refine ore as if they were in 1.0 space.
Have you looked at the belts in secure space lately?
Pretty empty eh?
We you also take that another step further, this is arkonor and bistot we are considering here, not scordite or veldspar. If mobile refineries are too efficient, then we will have serious megacyte and zydrine deficiencies within a matter of months if not sooner. With that scenario there will be a complete stop of the EVE manufacturing element which will eventually thrust us all in low level frigates that do not require megacyte or zydrine for contruction.
Is this what you want?
Yes there are a lot of systems out there, but they will not last for long if mobile refineries are too efficient. There needs to be a happy medium between taking the ore back to a station or making the decision to lose a lot of the minerals due to inefficiency.
EVE can not afford to see miners "get out of hand," otherwise the economic model of EVE may become in jeapordy, and no one wants that.
Some may say, if the mobile refineries are too inefficient then that may cause the rare ores to become non-existant faster, and that would be a good premise, however, that will be a paradigm that will exist for far off areas of the universe and not for areas that are deemed closer and worth the trip to the station. I can see 10 to 15 hops to a station for refining acceptable, while 20 to 40 hops to a station can be viewed as unacceptable. This creates the need for specialisation. Larger groups will be able to use mobile refineries more since their numbers will merit the inefficiencies and they will be very nomadic since their demand for the rare ores will require large quantities.
However, the threat to the market system is the same. Mobile refineries will put a stress on demand and supply. Demand and supply does not only apply to the prices of rare minerals but also to the demand and supply of available minable roids.
The universe is finite. If mobile refineries are too efficient, there is nothing stopping anyone and their dog to mine the un-living crap out of the universe.
Quickly prices will fall. Battleships will be everywhere. Corps will have huge wars. Unfortunately when the smoke subsides, the supply of rare minerals will go down and down with no option to replenish them. The market will stagnate and nothing will be as it was. Perhaps this is not a bad turn of events, but it is definately not what was intended by the creators and definately not by players. WHo wants to fly a frigate?
Thus, for these reasons and I am sure many more, mobile refineries can not possibly be as efficient as stations.
Will the dev's get the right combination? That remains to be seen, but 100% efficiency with respect to mobile units and stations is inconsistant with what we seen in real life examples and in my opinion would be a very large mistake to make.
And yes, this is a game and is not always like real life, I agree, nontheless, the economy and market system in EVE is built on real life premises and this must be protected by economic principles we currently use in industries today.
Good luck CCP :)
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Kaleb
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Posted - 2003.09.16 05:15:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Kaleb on 16/09/2003 05:17:08
While I agree with the above poster's conclusion, I have to disagree with the reasoning.
If mobile refineries are not more efficient then the example given above (the omber refine), systems will be stripped of bistot and quickly left for dead as large corps go from system to system mining bistot only to get tiny amounts of megacyte.
To stop this from happening, and to make a 10 belt system last more then a day or two, mobile refineries should be able to give at least 60% of a stations refining ablility. Perhaps with the right skill levels 75-85% should be possible?
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Tsaya
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Posted - 2003.09.16 09:10:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Tsaya on 16/09/2003 09:12:29
Imho mobile refineries should give a maximum of roughly 50%-60% of the amount you get on station (depending on skill).
What many of seem to forget is that newbs in frigates spent about 50% of their time hauling, cruisers with industrials roughly 25%. If the loss of the mobile refinery is below that values (50% with low skill, 25% with high skill), secure space will be littered with mobile refineries and and no one will ever haul anything to the station. (yeah, i know newbs wont be able to afford them, but in high sec space, a corp can just anchor one and let it stay there 24/7)
I think we all agree that mobile refineries are meant for non-empire space, and the littering of secure space with them is not what they are intended for.
Therefore, to prevent it, the loss has to be 30-50%.
92% is way off the mark, though.
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McWatt
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Posted - 2003.09.16 10:54:00 -
[28]
guys this discussion is heading into a very wrong direction!
the real problem imho is:
* that stations could (???) be hauled by a BB
* that they can be put anywhere
* that it doesn t take real time to deploy/undeploy them (60 sec???)
they ll just end up repackt and unlogged with as soon as someone shows up in local/map
what this game needs is something that combat can center about,
not just another mining tool!!!
sure it should yield enough minerals to make people use it, but this is not the main point.
the way they are planned now doesn t make them a
"mobile home", and Halo, it makes the dev clip even more of a joke that it is so far!
people will haul them along while strip mining a belt in the same way they re doing it with cans at the moment.
this is bull****!
what s needed is:
* long deployment time
* staying power (lots of hitpoints)
* anchored to planets/moons, midspace only under very special circumstnances (skills)
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killzone
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Posted - 2003.09.16 13:58:00 -
[29]
There are 2 problems with having low yields for mobile refineries. 1) If people were to use them they would have to mine all that much more ore to get what they had before, thus stripping down even more belts. 2) If the yield is too low, it would pay to either haul to a station, or just mine in any system with a station. Lets be real, for a real mining team 0.0 mining in a system with a station is no different than mining in 1.0 space. The bottom line is these things are utterly useless at the current levels.
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Rizzo
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Posted - 2003.09.16 14:31:00 -
[30]
Quote:
I would be curious what skills the dude has that tried to refine? I
f he has refining 0 refining effiency 0 and just mobile refining 1 I wouldn't mind the yield being this low.
What I would imagine for example it that for each level of Mobile refinery operation you would get another 15% base refining, so someone with this skill at 5 would be equally efficient in base as in a mobile refiner.
Ofcourse all other refining skills should apply as well.
Take a look at the deployable objects feedback thread. My CEO tried it with refining 4 and mobile refinery 1, I tried it refinery efficiency 4 and no mobile refining skill, we both got less than 8% of the minerals we'd get doing the refine in a station (333 scordite each). I assume the skills aren't working properly as i would expect to need mobile refinery opps to be able to use it.
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