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Psianh Auvyander
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
5
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Posted - 2014.02.01 19:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
Jump clones are a great feature of EVE Online. They allow us to instantly travel huge distances so that we can be involved in things that wouldn't normally be possible. The majority of players who use this feature, I would venture to say, are people who are focused on PvP as a main activity in EVE Online. However, the ability to install jump clones is based on the standing of you or your corporation; a standing requirement of +8 with the station owner's faction.
Requiring players to grind standings to the extremely high (from a PvP focused perspective) limit of +8 with dozens upon dozens of factions is not fun or feasible. Take myself and my corporation for instance. We're mercenaries, thus we travel all over the universe on a very frequent basis. We find ourselves interacting with a huge amount of factions on a regular basis. If we had a mind to use jump clones in all of the stations that had medical bays in our areas of operations, we'd spend more time grinding than fighting.
Of course, there must be an entry fee for jump clones. They're a very powerful tool that players, corporations, and alliances can use in a large variety of ways, strategically and logistically, and shouldn't be ridiculously easy to obtain. But I do feel there should be another way.
My proposition is that an individual can pay a very large fee for using a jump clone facility that he does not have standings with, proportionate between his current standings and +8.
That is to say, if a pilot has +1 standings with a corporation, he'd pay 7M ISK while if he had +5 standings with a corporation he'd pay 3M ISK. The prices themselves used here are simply an example and don't reflect any intent to suggest actual amounts.
Likewise, a corporation could pay a fee calculated out for every member of the corporation, but at a slightly more forgiving ratio than an individual player.
I think this is best used as a temporary method of gaining access to jump clones, the window of time being somewhere less than a week.
This would allow players and small corporations much easier access to jump clones but who have no interest in doing missions for an inordinate amount of time just to unlock one faction's access.
I'd love to hear thoughts or improvements upon this system if others think it would be useful. [url=http://psianhauvyander.blogspot.com/[GoldenCrusade[\url]@wsethbrown |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
504
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Posted - 2014.02.01 19:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Psianh Auvyander wrote:My proposition is that [b]an individual can pay a very large fee for using a jump clone facility that he does not have standings with, proportionate between his current standings and +8. Have you not heard of jump clone broker corps? You pay a fee to join a corp with standing and then create your clones and then leave. -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Psianh Auvyander
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
5
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Posted - 2014.02.01 19:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:Psianh Auvyander wrote:My proposition is that [b]an individual can pay a very large fee for using a jump clone facility that he does not have standings with, proportionate between his current standings and +8. Have you not heard of jump clone broker corps? You pay a fee to join a corp with standing and then create your clones and then leave.
Yeah, I've heard of them, but it's not feasible for say, the CEO of a corporation to leave his corporation and join a broker corp just for one jump clone. Neither is it an acceptable solution for regular members who simply want to stay in their corporation or who need to install a jump clone quickly.
I don't think that forcing players to leave their corporation to join another each time they need a new jump clone is a good idea, it's simply the best we have right now. [url=http://psianhauvyander.blogspot.com/[GoldenCrusade[\url]@wsethbrown |
Secret Squirrell
Allied Press Intergalactic
71
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Posted - 2014.02.02 06:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Option 2: Find someone with a Rorqual (or Titan), use their clone bay. There are players who provide this service for free, or at minimal cost. I think they advertise in one of the buy/sell forums. Only requires some coordination and trip to lowsec.
Option 3: Bribe someone to give you docking permissions in a player sov station
Option 4: If you aren't red to provibloc, NRDS, you should be able to use their stations, though any merc worth thier salt should already be red to them.
Also, 7-8M is hardly a "very large fee".... |
Gigan Amilupar
No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
153
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Posted - 2014.02.02 09:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ooh, this is a tough one. On one hand I don't really like the idea of being able to "buy" something normally restricted by standings, I feel like it cheapens it. On the other hand, I really like the potential for this as an isk sink. I think the cost should be higher though. Perhaps 5M isk per level of standing lacking. This way, if your completely neutral to a corp (0.0), then you would have to pay 40M for one jump clone. Now that could rack up in a hurry . |
Gawain Edmond
Angry Mustellid
54
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Posted - 2014.02.02 11:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
unless you're evil all of providence is open to you, astel jump clone corp is free (probably spelt it wrong and have the totally wrong name but check out the bio of half of eve and you'll find it) getting a corp standing of 8 isn't that difficult and if you're only intrested in pvp and hate doing pve then if you enlist in fw spend a day running missions that'll get you a faction standing of about 8 and then jump to the other war zone that's allied with the one you joined first run missions for them then you'll have 2 faction with which you have a standing of 8 and be able to get jump clones from about half of eve.... |
Psianh Auvyander
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
5
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Posted - 2014.02.02 19:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Secret Squirrell wrote:Option 2: Find someone with a Rorqual (or Titan), use their clone bay. There are players who provide this service for free, or at minimal cost. I think they advertise in one of the buy/sell forums. Only requires some coordination and trip to lowsec.
Option 3: Bribe someone to give you docking permissions in a player sov station
Option 4: If you aren't red to provibloc, NRDS, you should be able to use their stations, though any merc worth thier salt should already be red to them.
Also, 7-8M is hardly a "very large fee"....
I don't think 7-8M is a very large fee at all either. That's why I said I didn't mean for it to be reflective of actual cost, but it made for easier representation. I'd rather not put an actual price on it since there are so many factors that I'm sure I'm unaware of that would be taken into account. [url=http://psianhauvyander.blogspot.com/[GoldenCrusade[\url]@wsethbrown |
Psianh Auvyander
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
5
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Posted - 2014.02.02 19:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Gigan Amilupar wrote:Ooh, this is a tough one. On one hand I don't really like the idea of being able to "buy" something normally restricted by standings, I feel like it cheapens it. On the other hand, I really like the potential for this as an isk sink. I think the cost should be higher though. Perhaps 5M isk per level of standing lacking. This way, if your completely neutral to a corp (0.0), then you would have to pay 40M for one jump clone. Now that could rack up in a hurry .
I'm going to go back and change my numbers since people seem to be thinking what I posted was what I thought was a reasonable price. I think the actual price should be quite extravagant. It shouldn't be a clear choice between buying and doing standings. In fact, buying should probably be pretty cringe worthy compared to grinding or no one would grind. [url=http://psianhauvyander.blogspot.com/[GoldenCrusade[\url]@wsethbrown |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
276
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Posted - 2014.02.02 20:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Love it, +1 If in doubt...do...excessively. |
Psianh Auvyander
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
5
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Posted - 2014.02.04 16:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'd love to hear more opinions on this.
So far it seems that people either think:
A) The idea has a foundation to work from
or
B) The idea is unnecessary as there are many work arounds currently, such as leaving your corporation to join another that has standings.
[url=http://psianhauvyander.blogspot.com/[GoldenCrusade[\url]@wsethbrown |
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Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1564
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Posted - 2014.02.04 16:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
Psianh Auvyander wrote:
B) The idea is unnecessary as there are many work arounds currently, such as leaving your corporation to join another that has standings.
Its mostly this. However the "workaround" is MUCH less burdensome than you suggest here. So much so that to put it this way is disingenuous. Firstly, jumpclones are permanent. The CEO should never need to leave his corporation, because the CEO should already have jump clones. Furthermore, in your OP you said this..
Psianh Auvyander wrote:If we had a mind to use jump clones in all of the stations that had medical bays in our areas of operations, we'd spend more time grinding than fighting.
This is also disingenuous, because using jump clones doesn't require any standings. Are you confused about how jumpclones work? "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Psianh Auvyander
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
5
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Posted - 2014.02.04 16:58:00 -
[12] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Psianh Auvyander wrote:
B) The idea is unnecessary as there are many work arounds currently, such as leaving your corporation to join another that has standings.
Its mostly this. However the "workaround" is MUCH less burdensome than you suggest here. So much so that to put it this way is disingenuous. Firstly, jumpclones are permanent. The CEO should never need to leave his corporation, because the CEO should already have jump clones. Furthermore, in your OP you said this.. Psianh Auvyander wrote:If we had a mind to use jump clones in all of the stations that had medical bays in our areas of operations, we'd spend more time grinding than fighting. This is also disingenuous, because using jump clones doesn't require any standings. Are you confused about how jumpclones work?
I personally don't think that saying someone should already have something done and shouldn't have to do it later is a good argument against. I feel that forcing anyone to leave a player organization to take advantage of a game feature is bad game design. I totally understand that people have been doing this for some time, but that, too, I feel is a very bad argument against changing things if it is a better method.
Ok, if you want to argue semantics, yes, USE was not the best word. Install, if that makes you feel better. [url=http://psianhauvyander.blogspot.com/[GoldenCrusade[\url]@wsethbrown |
Gregor Parud
186
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Posted - 2014.02.04 17:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
There are player options that provide this service, you can put an alt in charge of your corp for a day or two just fine to get yourself JC's. You could even reward a member of your corp to start doing missions for some obscure NPC corp with medicals. All emergent, player created game play and content that allows you to get JC's just fine. Also, you can get standing up really quickly if you do it right.
I don't see any reason (other than "effort is bad, everything easy") for this, certainly no valid reason. |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
46
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Posted - 2014.02.05 06:51:00 -
[14] - Quote
+1 for isk-sink jump-clone service. But lets make it in the double digits, lets say something like: 100 000 isk 10.0 standing 5M isk 9.0 standing. 10M isk 8.0 standing. 15M isk 7.0 standing. 20M isk 6.0 standing. 25M isk 5.0 standing. 30M isk 4.0 standing. 35M isk 3.0 standing. 40M isk 2.0 standing. 45M isk 1.0 standing. 50M isk 0.0 standing. 55M isk -1.0 standing, etc. And increase amount of total jumpclones to lets say 15 or 20. And that when they die you have to buy them again. Maybe the first jumclone could be 10 million with 0.0 standing, and the second would be 20 million with 0.0 standing, and the third would be 30 million with 0.0 standing etc. I'd use this service a lot. |
Julius Rigel
154
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Posted - 2014.02.05 11:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
Psianh Auvyander wrote:I personally don't think that saying someone should already have something done and shouldn't have to do it later is a good argument against. I think it's a pretty reasonable argument right here. If you're going to lead a corp of other players, some of which may even be new to the game, you should know how to do these basic things already. You could set up your own jump clones before founding a corp / accepting the position of CEO in a corp, and if you don't, it's no hassle to do it later.
Psianh Auvyander wrote:I feel that forcing anyone to leave a player organization to take advantage of a game feature is bad game design. Nobody is forcing you to leave. Installing a jump clone requires standings with the owner of a station. You can achieve this in several ways:
- Buy jump clones from a non-NPC station. There are many outposts around, and some of them regularly offer this as a service.
- Grind the standings on your own character so you can install jump clones in an NPC-owned station.
- Grind standings as a corp, so your whole corporation can install jump clones in an NPC-owned station.
- Join a corporation that already has standings.
I got my first jump clone from EC-P8R back in the day. I also bought one in Providence a few years later. I've never run a lot of missions or had high standing with an NPC corp, and I've never joined a corp to buy jump clones.
Besides, I don't agree that the entire game should be open to everyone, regardless of the choices they make. Even if you could only get jump clones from NPC stations, it still makes sense that you would have to take a specific path (missions) to get access to that feature, the same way capital ships can't use gates, so you're choosing to fly a ship that won't be able to do that, or the same way only corporations can put up starbases, so you have to join one to be able to mine a moon, and so on. Do YOU like to undock? |
Hexatron Ormand
Aperture Deep Space BORG Alliance
44
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Posted - 2014.02.05 11:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
What about using a faction that has stations everywhere? Grind one time, have access to jumpclones in every empire.
The sisters of eve come to mind. They are an own faction, that is all over the empire spaces. You find their stations within reasonable jumpranges almost anywhere.
Or look for the huge global corporations that have offices in other empires.
Just chose the corporations to grind for wisely, and this should not be an issue at all. |
suid0
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
113
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Posted - 2014.02.05 11:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
You only need standings with 1 corp.
Get to +8, fly around to all their cloning stations and install clones to your max allowed by skills
Once you have the clones installed you can jump to any, doesn't matter who owns the station they're in. the entire enemy support fleet is dead except for one interdictor a titan could easily finish off with drones -á--áCommander Ted |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
686
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Posted - 2014.02.05 12:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
suid0 wrote:You only need standings with 1 corp.
Get to +8, fly around to all their cloning stations and install clones to your max allowed by skills
Once you have the clones installed you can jump to any, doesn't matter who owns the station they're in.
Confirming that the estel corp gives access to clones pretty much everywhere and that you only need 1 corp where you can make clones as you can then move them to any station you want . when you jump clone from there you leave your old clone in the station you just jumped from. My cyno alts all have multiple clones. i move them where they are needed . they are in npc corps and have done zero missions. It ain't hard now. i see no problem that requires fixing. Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85 |
Jint Hikaru
Truly Transdimensional The Nova Foundry
1116
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Posted - 2014.02.05 12:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
I think that circumventing the need to have standings with a faction by simply paying ISK (for whatever reason), would set a bad precedent in a game where actions have consequences and you have to work for the things you want.
It would also take away from those who have set up businesses in game offering jump-clone services.
As has been stated further up this thread, you only need standing with one corp... and you can then move your clones all over the place.
Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
904
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Posted - 2014.02.05 13:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
ISK as balancing factor... Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
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Psianh Auvyander
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
5
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Posted - 2014.02.05 15:31:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ronny Hugo wrote:+1 for isk-sink jump-clone service. But lets make it in the double digits, lets say something like: 100 000 isk 10.0 standing 5M isk 9.0 standing. 10M isk 8.0 standing. 15M isk 7.0 standing. 20M isk 6.0 standing. 25M isk 5.0 standing. 30M isk 4.0 standing. 35M isk 3.0 standing. 40M isk 2.0 standing. 45M isk 1.0 standing. 50M isk 0.0 standing. 55M isk -1.0 standing, etc. And increase amount of total jumpclones to lets say 15 or 20. And that when they die you have to buy them again. Maybe the first jumclone could be 10 million with 0.0 standing, and the second would be 20 million with 0.0 standing, and the third would be 30 million with 0.0 standing etc. I'd use this service a lot.
Personally, I think it should be way more than that. For the idea to work at all, I think the cost should be high enough to make doing the PvE at least attractive. [url=http://psianhauvyander.blogspot.com/[GoldenCrusade[\url]@wsethbrown |
Boiglio
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
45
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Posted - 2014.02.06 12:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
As someone that regularly creates jump clones on a rorqual, who is making them consistently for people that have a slew of questions about how they work, the vocabulary involved and the differences between medical clones and jump clones--I think I have a better idea than isk for clones. Bear with me.
* First, 8.0 standings to create one is indeed too high, and is counter-productive to many of the goals of Eve. Easy, readily-available access to at least one jump clone early in your eve career, even very early in your eve career, is a difference-maker to the New Player Experience. In CAS, when we started regularly running PvP events, the biggest hesitation players (especially new players) had was that they didn't want to risk their implants. They weren't ready to make decisions about joining a corp either, so many of the workarounds weren't a good solution for them. The one we picked then was to scout people into the (then) freeport at EC-P8R, but when things really took off for us? When we started offering free, publicly-advertised, rorqual-based jumpclones. It was the single biggest factor we saw in CAS for people not only being willing to take on outright PvP, but in participating in Mining Ops, exploration fleets, and other group activities in and out of CAS if they knew they could put a clone in the area.
* Second, the descriptions for the entire thing are so vague and confusing as to be rendered nigh-useless to a majority of new players. Nearly everyone I know in my time in Eve had to have someone show them how the whole thing worked the first time or two, and nearly everyone exclaims that the process itself is easy, but the descriptions make it way more difficult than it had to be. I've often told people that the developers responsible for the vocabulary, definitions, and process of jump clones/medical clones should be punished, preferably by having to be the one explaining it individually to every pilot in Eve. (I also had a recurring nightmare that I'd do something that drew CCP's ire, and they'd punish me by forcing me to explain jump clones as a newly-introduced thing to every single DUSTbunny when it first began.)
My idea: Add getting your first jump clone (doesn't have to be more than just that first one) to the Sisters of Eve epic arc that so many new players are working with at the beginning of their eve careers. This has the advantage of allowing CCP to show off the considerable benefits they provide to players early on, and giving new players one of their most important tools in learning to appropriately manage their risk in Eve rather than try to avoid it entirely. Make it as easy as possible for new players to experience more of what Eve has to offer them right away--on a personal level--and they're more likely to enjoy what they find. Jump clones are quite empowering, and the game itself should promote that.
This would also hopefully force your hand, CCP, at cleaning up the explanations, the vocabulary, and the processes itself to present them in a more useful, easily-understood, hopefully-sensical way. Maybe this is the time to implement things like not having to pause/restart your training to clone jump, telling people that they don't have to only leave jump clones in stations with medical services, or allowing us to NAME our different clones. Clean it up, fold the new shiny understandable process into something that most new players encounter early on, and your playerbase is less burdened with doing your job, and can focus more on doing ours--finding creative ways for people to spend their time USING clones.
~Boiglio |
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