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The Act of mining. A discussion.

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Tsual	Posted - 2006.04.04 07:17:00 - [31] Edited by: Tsual on 04/04/2006 07:18:27 Edited by: Tsual on 04/04/2006 07:17:33 Originally by: Telemicus Thrace But with every man and his dog mining and long term miners running multiple barges the market has more minerals than it knows what to do with. Many miners just want quick and easy ISK so they undercut each other ruthlessly (time is currently their only 'cost price', fuel cost for a capital miner would go a small way to changing that) and the value of minerals goes through the floor. From my POV I can't support this entirely, yep you don't get the official base price from minerals anymore and a lot of resellers are running around on the mineral market but minerals still sell for a okayish price. (Heimatar: Trit = 1, Pyre = 3 to 3.5, mexallon = 10 to 11, Iso = 100, Nox = 250, Zyd = 3.5k to 4k, Mega = 4k - and that pretty much stable in the last 3 month.) Imho the second biggest issue for the mineral market is a influx of minerals refined from mission npc loot - basicly you can make minerals in a more interesting way by farming kill mission npcs or rats then by mining - shure it is not as effective as a big mining operation but then it is way more fun. ******************** Tsual - Highly ore adddicted.
Hohenheim OfLight	Posted - 2006.04.04 07:59:00 - [32] A capital mining ship would be nice, as it is eve is becoeming a game where haveing one account simple wont do, any one in my corp over 6 months has at least 2 accounts some have more. ITs the only way most feel than keep up with the "jones" Now people feeling they need more than one account my be nice for ccp but the game should not be like that, other wise you would be able to log in 3 times with the one account and make use of all 3 slots. We need the captial mining ships even if it just stop people from feeling like that need 26 accounts just to play the game at the same lvl as every one else. ----------------------------------------------
Hiro Kazamatsuri	Posted - 2006.04.04 08:10:00 - [33] Originally by: Naverin But i would love it if i could have a capital Industry ship.. that would give me the ability to Wtfpwn Industry.. without needing to have 7 accounts.. The only problems is after getting your first capital Industry ship, You will want to have 6 more on your other accounts to even more wtfpwn industry.
Hohenheim OfLight	Posted - 2006.04.04 09:38:00 - [34] Originally by: Hiro Kazamatsuri Originally by: Naverin But i would love it if i could have a capital Industry ship.. that would give me the ability to Wtfpwn Industry.. without needing to have 7 accounts.. The only problems is after getting your first capital Industry ship, You will want to have 6 more on your other accounts to even more wtfpwn industry. Yep but i dont think any one reall want's to be paying for 7 subsciptions? I mena ok so he is used to it now and may carrier on, but dont think it woudl save overs from having to have their own private army? ----------------------------------------------
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.04.04 09:52:00 - [35] the tone of the title makes it sound in my mind like "the act of ************. a discussion" or something else equally weird probably just me tbh sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault Stop spamming with "QFT" >:\|. - Teblin
Laythun	Posted - 2006.04.04 09:53:00 - [36] I think you should have your toys. Then you will once and for all destroy mining for new players and old. Its simple really, you WILL flood the market with minerals. The price of mins is at its lowest i have ever seen, us pvp'ers just cant keep destoying/losing ships fast enough than you can mine at the moment. Why make it worse for youselves? --------------------------------------------- If im flaming or not contributing im sorry, but im trying to get into th [23]
Hohenheim OfLight	Posted - 2006.04.04 09:55:00 - [37] Originally by: Laythun I think you should have your toys. Then you will once and for all destroy mining for new players and old. Its simple really, you WILL flood the market with minerals. The price of mins is at its lowest i have ever seen, us pvp'ers just cant keep destoying/losing ships fast enough than you can mine at the moment. Why make it worse for youselves? yes but then every one can upgrade their bs into a carrier, and we can all fly them as standard, ----------------------------------------------
Laythun	Posted - 2006.04.04 10:21:00 - [38] Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight Originally by: Laythun I think you should have your toys. Then you will once and for all destroy mining for new players and old. Its simple really, you WILL flood the market with minerals. The price of mins is at its lowest i have ever seen, us pvp'ers just cant keep destoying/losing ships fast enough than you can mine at the moment. Why make it worse for youselves? yes but then every one can upgrade their bs into a carrier, and we can all fly them as standard, i get where your coming from. but it wont happen.. and this idea should be nerfed NOW. --------------------------------------------- If im flaming or not contributing im sorry, but im trying to get into th [23]
Braaage	Posted - 2006.04.04 10:26:00 - [39] The Exumers address the cargo hold issue, a Hulk can be boosted to 11,000m3 with 2 cargo expanders, the fact it mines so much though means you fill it within 3 yields. ___________________________________________ http://www.eve-tutor.com Picture based tutorial site for EVE-Online
Uther Doull	Posted - 2006.04.04 10:28:00 - [40] 3 reasons why you will probably never see a ship that can refine and produce: - POS - Outposts - player interaction CCP wants players to build infrastructure in 0.0, having ships that can refine and produce will take away a big part of the incentive to build this infrastructure CCP also wants players to co-operate, all the high end stuff in this game needs co-operation of some sort, having a ship that 'does it all' on the mining/production field will take away incentive to co-operate with other players i'm not saying that miners can't or shouldn't have better mining ships or bigger haulers or whatever, but i don't ever see an 'all in one' ship coming out while ccp has anything to say about it

HippoKing	Posted - 2006.04.04 10:33:00 - [41] i fully support the idea of a t2 dread with capital mining turrets, dual mining bonuses and a freighter's cargo hold. this should be introduced through a special case of the t2 lottery, where there is one BPO, and it is seeded to a player drawn randomly out of all the players called HippoKing sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault Stop spamming with "QFT" >:\|. - Teblin
Telemicus Thrace	Posted - 2006.04.04 10:58:00 - [42] Originally by: Tsual Edited by: Tsual on 04/04/2006 07:18:27 Edited by: Tsual on 04/04/2006 07:17:33 Originally by: Telemicus Thrace But with every man and his dog mining and long term miners running multiple barges the market has more minerals than it knows what to do with. Many miners just want quick and easy ISK so they undercut each other ruthlessly (time is currently their only 'cost price', fuel cost for a capital miner would go a small way to changing that) and the value of minerals goes through the floor. From my POV I can't support this entirely, yep you don't get the official base price from minerals anymore and a lot of resellers are running around on the mineral market but minerals still sell for a okayish price. (Heimatar: Trit = 1, Pyre = 3 to 3.5, mexallon = 10 to 11, Iso = 100, Nox = 250, Zyd = 3.5k to 4k, Mega = 4k - and that pretty much stable in the last 3 month.) Imho the second biggest issue for the mineral market is a influx of minerals refined from mission npc loot - basicly you can make minerals in a more interesting way by farming kill mission npcs or rats then by mining - shure it is not as effective as a big mining operation but then it is way more fun. Check the market history and look at what the prices used to be. It is not a matter of supporting a point of view, look at the data. Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight A capital mining ship would be nice, as it is eve is becoeming a game where haveing one account simple wont do, any one in my corp over 6 months has at least 2 accounts some have more. ITs the only way most feel than keep up with the "jones" Now people feeling they need more than one account my be nice for ccp but the game should not be like that, other wise you would be able to log in 3 times with the one account and make use of all 3 slots. We need the captial mining ships even if it just stop people from feeling like that need 26 accounts just to play the game at the same lvl as every one else. I have never understood this mentality. What is so wrong with teamwork and social interaction that you'd rather run multiple accounts? Sure you can make 100mil an hour then funnel it all into one character, buy time cards then roll around in a moon sized pile of ISK. Then what? nothing has any value when you can fund an outpost the way small corps run a POS. Ship loss is as meaningful as Counter Strike. It's like playing Doom in god mode, sure you have all the toys but there is surely no sense of achievment. After a few weeks of that I wager most people would be whining that they are bored and there is nothing left to do. Screw keeping up with the Jones', jump the fence, pistol whip them then go play the game the way it was meant to be enjoyed. >> RECRUITING <<
Tremain	Posted - 2006.04.04 11:04:00 - [43] I don't think the 'ccp want interaction' argument can be used against capital mining ships. They would be a deep space platform to support groups of miners working far from friendly stations. Why would you use them when stations were available? The cost and low refines would outweight the minor irritation of hopping a few instas to the station. Also if you were in your own controlled space you would build an outpost, it's cheaper and more secure. My own use for a capital mining platform, should I ever be able to afford one, would be to sneak into some quiet 0.0 and mine like hell. You can't put up a POS because your not welcome and sticking in one place isn't a good idea. hauling ore to empire is not a great idea either as passing through gates increases risk and visibility. The question for me would be - should the capital ship be able to jump? Doing so would make it far less vulnerable in the journey. If it can jump can it jump with ore / minerals in it's hold, or should you be forced to refine then let the haulers take the minerals out (minerals being so small as to allow decent shipments)? Given that the capital ship would basically just refine, not jump (to add risk in travel) and be quite beefy but not invulnerable - why not just put a mobile refinery in the game? Big enough volume that only freighters could ever move it, due to the natural desire for empires to protect their refining taxes it should only be possible to deploy it in 0.3 and below (same as pos). The whole point of it would be that it was mobile, so don't make it anchor for long periods of time (maybe same as a secure can).
Miss Overlord	Posted - 2006.04.04 11:07:00 - [44] to make mining more vaulable for miners the 100s of ISK farming bots and semi afk sweatshop NPC characters need to be removed from the game that is why minerals are so low in value - CCP ignore this fact so mining as a profession is being killed at least at the low ends.

Chribba	Posted - 2006.04.04 11:12:00 - [45] I support the idea of a more specialized mining ship with including refinery, however the refinery should have a max refining percentage of 50%, there should be one downside with being able to afk mine into minerals at once, and 3 turrets are quite enough imo. I want to make use of my Mobile Refinery Skill I got trained already And I'd be happy to call it a capital mining/refining ship with Exhumers 5 and Capital Ships 3, but only as long as I am allowed to park it next to my dread in Amarr EVE-Files \| EVE-Search \| Monitor this Thread

LordyHaHa	Posted - 2006.04.04 11:19:00 - [46] I started 4 days ago and I think having a do it all in one mining ship would be an absolute disaster. It would destroy what I'm looking forward to in the game and what has already been mentioned - Interaction and Teamwork. Take those away and you might as well go play a single player game ... what would the point be ..? I personally feel that having 3 alts is a bit lame too - Isn't it supposed to be about having fun, crap talking and interacting with others. Because I'm new I'm not too sure about the POS' but wouldn't that be what they are for? Setup a huge ass base of operation and have your Corp defend it and its miners. also the "Too many people mining is ruining the market" - then go blow them up. Use some of your Isk to remove the competition. Go out and nail every barge in the system. As a newbie my thinking is that mining would be easier to make some profit than combat, maybe this is what all newbies are thinking and doing, causing the over saturation of the market. Maybe "pruning" the miners by means of missiles and railguns would be a good thing? It would definalty force more co-operation as a miner in his barge would need to organise protection from other pplayers to get anywhere ... again - I'm only 4 days in so I'm nott 100% sure how these things go :/
Naverin	Posted - 2006.04.04 13:15:00 - [47] After sleeping on it... I realize it doesnt matter.. Industry is dead untill the influx of Sweat shop miners are stopped and shut down to let the eve economy restore itself.. Yeha.. mining is dead ______________________ I am the carebear... who doesnt use the "Correct Dread"
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.04.04 13:20:00 - [48] Mining is for very skilled players. The hardest profession in-game. Mining is a very high risk and high reward profession. Really... ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Hohenheim OfLight	Posted - 2006.04.04 13:23:00 - [49] Originally by: Telemicus I have never understood this mentality. What is so wrong with teamwork and social interaction that you'd rather run multiple accounts? Sure you can make 100mil an hour then funnel it all into one character, buy time cards then roll around in a moon sized pile of ISK. Then what? nothing has any value when you can fund an outpost the way small corps run a POS. Ship loss is as meaningful as Counter Strike. It's like playing Doom in god mode, sure you have all the toys but there is surely no sense of achievment. After a few weeks of that I wager most people would be whining that they are bored and there is nothing left to do. Screw keeping up with the Jones', jump the fence, pistol whip them then go play the game the way it was meant to be enjoyed. No one wants more than one account it just comes down to convince, not ever has the skills to complement your own, can be arse/avalible/in the same place, at the same time. People have dif proritys and jsutr becuse you want to mine, does not mean that others are off pvping or make a 20 jump round trip for skills. I dont mind doing things for with other players, being ceo most of my time is spent doing stuff for the corp, I have not made more than 20 mil my self since taking up the role. ----------------------------------------------
Vikram Bedi	Posted - 2006.04.04 15:01:00 - [50] Originally by: Eximius Josari That's called supply and demand... If you drastically increase the supply of a product without increasing the demand, the price will drop. The solution to this is not to find ways for people to even further increase the supply. Bring this ship of your to market and watch the price of trit drop to .1 isk, and then there's absolutely no way for a newb to get out of their rookie ship short of taking out a loan or buying the isk on eBay. Well most anyone who actually needs lots of minerals mine their own. Bypassing the market completely. That is no reason not to have capital ships based in industry.[/QUOTE] That's not what I was saying... The OP was presenting a problem that he saw, and a potential solution. The problem being that it was hard to make money mining in empire space, and the solution that he should have access to a bigger, badder, bedder mining vessel. What this ignores is that the reason it's harder to make isk mining in empire now is that there are too many miners for the economy, which is forcing the price down. Introducing a ship that can simply bring the minerals to market faster will only accelerate this trend, and squeeze the last bit of profitability out of the market. What's needed is either a) a drastic increase in the demand for minerals. A war, or a wave of more violent NPC's, or new ships that need to be had/built or b) to make mining harder for big end mining operations. Make it more difficult to bring ore to the market and less people will do it. The market will then respond with higher prices, and more profit for those who decide to stick with it. [QUOTE] Consider the cost of lets say...my ORE Horde, say it takes about 70 Billion ISK to build, yet doesnt mine that much in a year...how does that figure into supply and demand? It doesn't.

Tsual	Posted - 2006.04.04 17:35:00 - [51] Originally by: Telemicus Thrace Originally by: Tsual Edited by: Tsual on 04/04/2006 07:18:27 Edited by: Tsual on 04/04/2006 07:17:33 Originally by: Telemicus Thrace But with every man and his dog mining and... . . . minerals goes through the floor. From my POV I can't support this entirely... . . . ...but then it is way more fun. Check the market history and look at what the prices used to be. It is not a matter of supporting a point of view, look at the data. Sorry my market history is borked and begins somewhere at first of january this year, if you can link to a screenshot with 12 month history of different ore prices I'd be very thankfully. ******************** Tsual - Highly ore adddicted.
KaraThrace	Posted - 2006.04.04 17:54:00 - [52] You could have a Compression skill where the ore is compressed 5% with every level???
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.04.04 20:17:00 - [53] Originally by: Laythun I think you should have your toys. Then you will once and for all destroy mining for new players and old. Its simple really, you WILL flood the market with minerals. The price of mins is at its lowest i have ever seen, us pvp'ers just cant keep destoying/losing ships fast enough than you can mine at the moment. Why make it worse for youselves? I would rather mine less with my capital barge, than deal with the silliness of running a solo op with 5-12 characters. I'm betting most people are the same way. Industrial Giants
Jenton	Posted - 2006.04.04 23:30:00 - [54] Originally by: Vikram Bedi Originally by: Naverin no matter howyou look at it.. more people are mining.. more people are producing.. yet mineral prices are at an all time low.. That's called supply and demand... If you drastically increase the supply of a product without increasing the demand, the price will drop. The solution to this is not to find ways for people to even further increase the supply. Bring this ship of your to market and watch the price of trit drop to .1 isk, and then there's absolutely no way for a newb to get out of their rookie ship short of taking out a loan or buying the isk on eBay. in the beginning there were noob ships. and CCP saw that this was good, and taught the man (or woman) to mine, so he (or she) could keep him (or herself) fed (or $ed) for the rest of his (or her) life. CCP saw that this was good. Then, the noob saw T1 frigates on market, and CCP saw that this was also good. To keep their roll on, CCP told noobs to mine or hunt rats in high sec (player guide) to get their first T1 frigate. And this was good. Then, they released storyline noob missions that yielded +1 implants which fetch up to 3million. (9 fully fitted kestrels) long story short, the game has moved past the point where people depend on tritanium prices to make a living. if you have veldspar refining to lvl5, i feel for you, but keep in mind there are people with minny battleship lvl5 i dont know about you guys, but for building ships, a 50% drop doesn't make much of a difference for the prices. if anything, the large supply should make it easier to buy and haul in batches to make ships. Those who see grey in the world do not see clearly, for the world is ever cast in black and white.
Tsual	Posted - 2006.04.06 20:39:00 - [55] Originally by: Jenton long story short, the game has moved past the point where people depend on tritanium prices to make a living. if you have veldspar refining to lvl5, i feel for you, but keep in mind there are people with minny battleship lvl5 From my experience lvl 3 in Veldspar processing is curently enough for high sec. ******************** Tsual - Highly ore adddicted.


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