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The Act of mining. A discussion.

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Naverin	Posted - 2006.04.03 20:47:00 - [1] In the begining.. there were noob ships. The idea behind Mining was Going to a belt. Firing your mining laser till your hold was full. and then returning to dump at a station. VERY Idiotic process which was very very inefficent. Soon thereafter came "Industrials" I remeber my first indy.. It could hold 4,000 m3.. I was in heaven over my little noob ships like 100 m3 Hold. Now the only problem with the Industrial was.. 1 Miner slot. So.. There we had tons of Industrials sitting in a belt with 1 miner going.. Just so they didnt have to Dock and go back out. People begain then thinking.. Hey.. Let me Jet can my ore and mine a ton.. then Come back and pick it up. (Jetcan mining Was rumored to be an exploit) So then with jetcans... came "Ore thiefs" Who would swoop in... take a jet can and swoop out.. avoiding the whole Mining part. The thing was.. The more advance you got.. IE Cruiser/bships.. You got more miner slots.. You were able to mine like a bat outta hell.. but at the end of the day.. Haulers Simply didnt keep up. And if you didnt have a Hauler.. what was the point of Having so many miner slots?... what was the point of using a battleship?.. The question still remains.. Cargo holds are Grossly innadaquate and I feel they should be looked into for Mining. (IE Any ore put in the cargo hold is Compressed 20x.) this way People dont have a 50k hold full of Stuff.. SO this would allow Ships to be used how they were intended.. mining ships. Take a ship out with as many mining lasers as you could fit.. and then mine.. Fill up.. go back to station. Now.. This would indeed be a nice change.. but what about Doing this for haulers.. and giving them ore compression. allowing Even more quantities to be hauled and mined in todays day and age.. (Kinda lost point of my post and really am not sure where i was going.. was simply bored and decided to write some babble..) Yeah... Discuss.. ______________________ I am the carebear... who doesnt use the "Correct Dread"
Kylania	Posted - 2006.04.03 20:55:00 - [2] Originally by: Naverin The question still remains.. Cargo holds are Grossly innadaquate and I feel they should be looked into for Mining. (IE Any ore put in the cargo hold is Compressed 20x.) this way People dont have a 50k hold full of Stuff.. EVE is about two things. Risk vs Reward and Player. The current system involves both. If you want 50k of stuff you either need to have other players with you, or risk your reward by leaving it there while you get your hauler. Your suggestion takes away the players and risk by having someone keep their whole reward in their hull. A Bad ThingÖ I'd say. -- Lil Miner
Aeaus	Posted - 2006.04.03 20:59:00 - [3] Back when I was a cute little carebear... One good hauler could easily keep up with several mining barges, so it's more a matter of having enough manpower, or if you're going solo knowing you'd need to allocate hauling time... Of course we operated several player owned structures due to no close proximity stations.
Tasuric Orka	Posted - 2006.04.03 21:00:00 - [4] No. I'm sorry, but mining barges are there for a reason. And Battleships are called battleships for a reason as well. If you want to mine effectively, you are going to need a hauler anyways, barge or BS, it doesnt matter. ________________________________________________ Hypocritical.
AlienBreed	Posted - 2006.04.03 21:27:00 - [5] The answer to this is a capital mining ship, somethng with on-board refining ability and not some crppy 70% max but something that can be skilled up to a decent level eg 95% Imagine a ship with 6 stip miners and refinery ability,no jump drive and allowed in empire, a stupid idea? perhaps but no more so than titans and super weapons and if somebody wants to take the time to skill that far (exhumers 5, capital ships and whatever) then why not? Mining is boring, and while exhumers do mine fast they arnt as fast as i would like and their ability to tank multi bs spawns is much exagerated imo Give the miners a break and let them have their uber monster ship
Micia	Posted - 2006.04.03 21:30:00 - [6] Originally by: AlienBreed Mining is boring, Lies, I say. Lies! _______ Join our team of Industrialists & Miners
AlienBreed	Posted - 2006.04.03 21:34:00 - [7] just imagine tho, the time sinks ccp could make of a ship like that refinery efficiency, refining speed , the capacity of your refinery hell they could even make you skill for every ore type you want to refine in it....
Tasuric Orka	Posted - 2006.04.03 21:53:00 - [8] Originally by: Micia Originally by: AlienBreed Mining is boring, Lies, I say. Lies! Mining is so cool, there is nothing like swooping into a belt at 90m/s, targetting those punkass roids and tearing them a new *** with two modulated strip miner II's at once, only to notice your cargohold if filling, and you scream for reinforcements, they arive, and the killing continues.. ALL NIGHT LONG. PvP is for pansies. ________________________________________________ Hypocritical.
Drizit	Posted - 2006.04.03 22:08:00 - [9] Originally by: AlienBreed just imagine tho, the time sinks ccp could make of a ship like that refinery efficiency, refining speed , the capacity of your refinery hell they could even make you skill for every ore type you want to refine in it.... And why not? Make is so the people who actually want to get somewhere can do it over time. Create a system where you need to maximise your skills for the specific profession to get a mining cap ship. A Mining cap ship with on-board refining and a 100K hold and 50K for refined mins for example would be nice if you want to gain the skills required to use it. For example, 6 slots for strip mining mods and a few lows/mids for other mods to help mining/cargo cap or additional speed. Maybe 100m3 dronebay space for a few drones for defence. Not so many drones that it can be self defensive on lowsec or 0.0 so people still have to fly defence there. If it had no ability to pickup or drop cans, you would still have to go back to the station a few times in a mining session to drop off the loot. Either that or it could act as a dock but only for indies or transport ships to pick up the cargo but can't move until all ships have undocked so it can't take them with it to the next belt/system etc. No jumpdrive so it has to use gates and can operate in any sec level. Let's have some more reason for miners to be miners and give them the ability to mine enough in one session to build a half decent ship instead of taking days to get the ore. With the new t2 ships, it takes even longer to mine enough ore to build one. Even the T2 barges are no better than their predecessors at mining, they are just a bit tougher for use in lower sec. The PVP players have their new toys, now let us miners have some new toys as well so we can be more efficient at building the new toys for PVP players. So far, the T2 offerings have been very one-sided with very little incentive for miners to work double the hours to make them. --
Nee'kita Frist	Posted - 2006.04.03 22:14:00 - [10] I am a miner and I will never support a ship that can mine, refine and deliever all in one - that will destroy the profession. -------------- I'm just bitter

Naverin	Posted - 2006.04.03 22:36:00 - [11] Unfortunatly.. i did kinda have a point.. Mining at the end game is all about how much you can bring in.. because in the end money doesnt mean anything.. and minerals to build stuff does.. Macro miners working 23/7 Slave shop farmers working 23/7. An influx from 10k members on the weekend to 25k now.. no matter howyou look at it.. more people are mining.. more people are producing.. yet mineral prices are at an all time low.. 4-5 months ago.. trit was selling at 3 Isk per unit.. now your lucky if you can get around 1.5 per.. a nearly 50% Drop in mineral prices over that course of time is definatly NOT a good thing.. I have more thoughts on the subject.. but dont have the time.. will continue later. ______________________ I am the carebear... who doesnt use the "Correct Dread"
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.04.03 22:45:00 - [12] Originally by: Aeaus Back when I was a cute little carebear... You were cute? What happened? See my sig for my idea of what a real mining ship should be. Industrial Giants
AlienBreed	Posted - 2006.04.03 22:47:00 - [13] Edited by: AlienBreed on 03/04/2006 22:50:19 i dont see how it will destroy anything i can very nearly do it already with my main mining and my alt hauling so long as there is a station if not in the system them 1 jump away, i could prolly do it over 2 jumps but the ore would start to build up Lets look at what a miner/refiner could do - 1, no need for cans so no ore theft - mining with my alt i can already keep my can empty 99.9% of the time making me for all practical purposes immune to ore theft anyway 2, refining efficiency not tied to stations - ok so this would be a benefit however it would be one thats payed for in skills and how hard is it really to get faction standings high enough to not get charged to refine ? not very if you have a few social skills and run some missions 3, massive mining ability - this i think would be the biggest objection to a capital miner, the peopel whining omg all the ore is gone etc etc, well that is happening now thru dedicated miners and the sweatshop people and macros and whatever so nothing much is going to change there The most important ore imo is vedlspar If your building ships, especially battleships you are always short of trit and can never really have enough of it.Mining for trit is painfully slow even with crystals and i think a capital miner would be a good thing in this case to aid in production for those that choose to skill for it in a competative market.How many systems in high sec space do you see with huge rocks that never get touched, i know i see loads, so would the effect of a large scale miner really be felt that badly ? I dont think so If i was inclined to cheat and use a macro and let it run 23/7 i can already do 90% of what a capital miner would/should be able to do, so basicly you migth as well have a legitimate way of doing this put into the game we arnt taking about a fortess that mines in 0.0, more a mass harvester of low ends and is like other miners at risk being used out of high sec space Edit: damn i type slow and Naverin pretty much said it first
Naverin	Posted - 2006.04.04 00:10:00 - [14] Ok had a bit of time to collect some thoughts.. At my peak I was running 6 accounts by myself for industrial purposess. now many will think im crazy or going nuts.. but in reality.. Once 1 character is maxxed out On mining ability.. (Covetor + Tech 2 strips +tech 2 crystals) at the time.. that character cant advance to mine any faster So I got another and another.. Now at the same point.. The only way for me to increase my ability to Mine and be industrialist.. I needed to add characters. Which is fine.. There has to be a limit on 1 characters abilities.. But on the same hand.. we have capital ships.. Heavy war machines.. Carriers... PVP Ships out the wazzooo.. Tech 2 ships.. Faction mods.. Faction ships.. Skills in gunnery and missles and Combat and navigation.. Mining has.. a tech 2 barge.. that costs 475 mill + and doesnt mine that well in the grand scheme of things... We have no more skills.. once your 5 mining astro your tapped out.. We have no captal ships that are industry based.. I would love it if i could just be 1 charater ingame and do what i want.. The only reason I got upto so many accounts was.. The shere ability to advance.. I went from say 20 mill an hour.. to 120+ mill an hour at the end.. Thats a huge difference. But i would love it if i could have a capital Industry ship.. that would give me the ability to Wtfpwn Industry.. without needing to have 7 accounts.. Make it 0.0.. make it Hard to skill for make it need fuel jump drives teh works.. Im game.. but At least give us it.. Still more thoughts to come ______________________ I am the carebear... who doesnt use the "Correct Dread"
Phoenix Lord	Posted - 2006.04.04 01:33:00 - [15] Cap mining ship = Titan full of mining barges and 20k haulers :D __________________________________________________ Quote: Hyenrg1 > i am down for light spankings but nothing crazy.
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.04.04 01:43:00 - [16] Originally by: Naverin Ok had a bit of time to collect some thoughts.. At my peak I was running 6 accounts by myself for industrial purposess. now many will think im crazy or going nuts.. but in reality.. Once 1 character is maxxed out On mining ability.. (Covetor + Tech 2 strips +tech 2 crystals) at the time.. that character cant advance to mine any faster So I got another and another.. Now at the same point.. The only way for me to increase my ability to Mine and be industrialist.. I needed to add characters. Which is fine.. There has to be a limit on 1 characters abilities.. But on the same hand.. we have capital ships.. Heavy war machines.. Carriers... PVP Ships out the wazzooo.. Tech 2 ships.. Faction mods.. Faction ships.. Skills in gunnery and missles and Combat and navigation.. Mining has.. a tech 2 barge.. that costs 475 mill + and doesnt mine that well in the grand scheme of things... We have no more skills.. once your 5 mining astro your tapped out.. We have no captal ships that are industry based.. I would love it if i could just be 1 charater ingame and do what i want.. The only reason I got upto so many accounts was.. The shere ability to advance.. I went from say 20 mill an hour.. to 120+ mill an hour at the end.. Thats a huge difference. But i would love it if i could have a capital Industry ship.. that would give me the ability to Wtfpwn Industry.. without needing to have 7 accounts.. Make it 0.0.. make it Hard to skill for make it need fuel jump drives teh works.. Im game.. but At least give us it.. Still more thoughts to come The ships you want are in my sig :p I absolutely abhor jetcan mining, I think mining as it is is way too tedious and uninteresting. And I would rather read a book while doing it then just click and dragging for an hour or more. I think it would take my mining ships to actually get me to mine again. Even the Hulk's cargo is pathetic. Industrial Giants
Vikram Bedi	Posted - 2006.04.04 02:03:00 - [17] Originally by: Naverin no matter howyou look at it.. more people are mining.. more people are producing.. yet mineral prices are at an all time low.. That's called supply and demand... If you drastically increase the supply of a product without increasing the demand, the price will drop. The solution to this is not to find ways for people to even further increase the supply. Bring this ship of your to market and watch the price of trit drop to .1 isk, and then there's absolutely no way for a newb to get out of their rookie ship short of taking out a loan or buying the isk on eBay.
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.04.04 02:20:00 - [18] Originally by: Vikram Bedi Originally by: Naverin no matter howyou look at it.. more people are mining.. more people are producing.. yet mineral prices are at an all time low.. That's called supply and demand... If you drastically increase the supply of a product without increasing the demand, the price will drop. The solution to this is not to find ways for people to even further increase the supply. Bring this ship of your to market and watch the price of trit drop to .1 isk, and then there's absolutely no way for a newb to get out of their rookie ship short of taking out a loan or buying the isk on eBay. Well most anyone who actually needs lots of minerals mine their own. Bypassing the market completely. That is no reason not to have capital ships based in industry. Consider the cost of lets say...my ORE Horde, say it takes about 70 Billion ISK to build, yet doesnt mine that much in a year...how does that figure into supply and demand? Industrial Giants
Antzor	Posted - 2006.04.04 02:23:00 - [19] My solution to this problem would be to give mining barges a larger hold. 5000m3? Sure, why not. Another way for this to happen would be a large increase in cargo capacity per mining barge skill level, say 15% per level?
Balor Delacroix	Posted - 2006.04.04 02:28:00 - [20] I think the system works fine just the way it is. Risk VS reward

Xaeon	Posted - 2006.04.04 02:39:00 - [21] I don't know what this discussion is entirely about; but mining is just dirty. 23/03/06 - Chapter III: The Campaign of Keshirou
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.04.04 03:36:00 - [22] Originally by: Balor Delacroix I think the system works fine just the way it is. Risk VS reward There is risk in mining as it stands now? Industrial Giants
Telemicus Thrace	Posted - 2006.04.04 04:42:00 - [23] First things first: There is not end game in Eve. Battleships were designed for battle not mining, there is even a clue in the name. If you are mining faster than your mate in a hauler can haul then get two mates in haulers. A capital mining ship would be fine as long as it follows the same rules of balance as the other capital ships. Low sec only, needs jump drives (fuel, introducing a base cost to high volume mining - see below). Can't refine any better than a POS. Maybe force it to anchor itself at the belt to start refining making it a mobile mining platform rather than a ship. However this would allow more effecient low sec mining ops which would introduce more minerals into an already saturated mineral market. The complaints about the lack of capital class mining and the saturated mineral market are opposed to each other. Motherships loaded with POS towers and refineries + barges and haulers make for great deep space "in and out" mining ops. Exhumers are great speacialist mining vessels and are yet to be commonplace. But with every man and his dog mining and long term miners running multiple barges the market has more minerals than it knows what to do with. Many miners just want quick and easy ISK so they undercut each other ruthlessly (time is currently their only 'cost price', fuel cost for a capital miner would go a small way to changing that) and the value of minerals goes through the floor. Of course stockpiling is one option to survive and reverse the current glut but I wouldn't hold out much hope. It seems that the two most common 'professions' in Eve are miner or pirate and a lot of pirates have to mine with their alts to make ISK. At the moment mining is far too easy and commonplace and is putting a lot of strain on the economy. My corp (and yes, they are all real players not alts. a lot more challanging to lead through these kinds of issues) used to be miners, haulers and builders. Mining was good but as the market got flooded with cheap minerals it was just a wasted effort. Why bother when you have a guy in the same system running 4 accounts, 3 in mining battleships, who is prepared to sell Tritanium at 1 isk a rock? So we bought minerals and built T1 ships and made a very tidy sum. Of course I told this story then and suddenly the market is flooded with wannabe builders who are happy to sell battleships at a 5 ISK profit and suddenly thats not really worth the effort. Ships are selling cheap which is good for combat pilots but the industrialists are cutting their own throats. These days we make our ISK in a new venture that I will not even hint at here because the last thing I need is a legion of undercutting, no profit margin wannabes in my wake. The moral and conclusion to this tale? Put down the mining lasers and do something else with the ore or deal with the fact the market is flooded. The market is bottom heavy with too much being mined and built and not enough being blown up. The economy needs war to stay healthy and that is why all the cap ships except freighters are POS killers, combat ships or combat support ships. The absolute last thing we need at the moment is a bigger and faster way to mine. If your competitors are undercutting your ore sales and hurting your margins stop trying to out mine him and shoot him in the face. Improvise - Adapt - Overcome >> RECRUITING <<
TheNecromancer	Posted - 2006.04.04 05:00:00 - [24] if this capital ship is only going to be allowed in 0.4- then its only a new PVP ship... (yes I call all items that can only be used in 0.4- a pvp item) I see no reason for more PVP items in this game for a very long time.. how about some empire (0.5+) toys please ccp. My shop url Online shop
Samirol	Posted - 2006.04.04 05:22:00 - [25] hmm...I give this post a 6.5/10. You brought back a lot of nostalgia from the eve vets but you strayed from your point at the end. It also needs some more emotional depth. The ISS Navy is recruiting
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2006.04.04 05:38:00 - [26] a carrier is a logistic ship, make a refinery module that carrier can fitt. while doing that increase carriers cargobay to somethingh higher then a god damn ****in dreadnought which is a pure combat ship :) "We brake for nobody"
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.04.04 05:50:00 - [27] Originally by: TheNecromancer if this capital ship is only going to be allowed in 0.4- then its only a new PVP ship... (yes I call all items that can only be used in 0.4- a pvp item) I see no reason for more PVP items in this game for a very long time.. how about some empire (0.5+) toys please ccp. How about get rid of empire? Industrial Giants
Telemicus Thrace	Posted - 2006.04.04 05:53:00 - [28] Originally by: TheNecromancer if this capital ship is only going to be allowed in 0.4- then its only a new PVP ship... (yes I call all items that can only be used in 0.4- a pvp item) I see no reason for more PVP items in this game for a very long time.. how about some empire (0.5+) toys please ccp. A mining ship is a PvP ship if it can only be used in low sec? WTF. That gave me a good laugh. In all seriousness though a lot of people mistakenly think of high sec as noob / carebear space, low sec as pvp space and 0.0 as "ZOMG I'm gonna get ganked" space. PvP combat can happen anywhere in Eve. Suicide runs / corp wars happen all the time in high sec. Industry is happening all the way out to 0.0. It's less secure and takes team work but the profits more than make up for it. Every security level has benefits and drawbacks. For instance in war time the crowds in high sec can hide you long enough to get the drop on your target whereas in 0.0 they would have seen you coming. Thats why statistically the crowded hubs are vastly more dangerous than 0.0. Eve is entirely PvP from market to war zone. I pointed out above that the market is bottom heavy at the moment and to stabilise it we need more things blown up. That justifies bigger and more costly combat ships. If you can refute that be my guest but I'll have to insist you stop changing the meaning of words to suit you (mining ship for PvP bahahahaha! snort). It's like Europe in 1914, so many guns and not enough space. Wars are breaking out all over the shop as high sec is getting tapped out and more corps head for the rim. Hell CCP has given us more toys for an arms race and the mineral market is helping it flourish. Come Kali all hell breaks loose with faction warfare. If this is all being engineered by how CCP release ships then good on 'em. If not then good on 'em for designing a game where pressure for resources and economic growth lead to mass armed conflict. PvP mining ship hahhahahahh . Prize material. >> RECRUITING <<
Daedalus Maxwell	Posted - 2006.04.04 06:41:00 - [29] Originally by: Kylania Originally by: Naverin The question still remains.. Cargo holds are Grossly innadaquate and I feel they should be looked into for Mining. (IE Any ore put in the cargo hold is Compressed 20x.) this way People dont have a 50k hold full of Stuff.. EVE is about two things. Risk vs Reward and Player. The current system involves both. If you want 50k of stuff you either need to have other players with you, or risk your reward by leaving it there while you get your hauler. Your suggestion takes away the players and risk by having someone keep their whole reward in their hull. A Bad ThingÖ I'd say. *******s. This ain't about Risk vs. Reward or any other farking nonsense. Its about the tediousness of the process. Something as basic as mining shouldn't need multiple people to carry out. You want a large mining operation, fine get groups of people, but if you want a start small or are new to the game this isn't very effective (back in the retail days this was a relatively easy thing to do, heck I remember mining ark in the first couple of weeks down in cvy-uc but you can't do that now can you?). The times have changed lets face it, mining needs a DRASTIC and DRAMATIC overhaul.
Xerku Mhar	Posted - 2006.04.04 07:06:00 - [30] Originally by: Telemicus Thrace The absolute last thing we need at the moment is a bigger and faster way to mine. If your competitors are undercutting your ore sales and hurting your margins stop trying to out mine him and shoot him in the face. Great quote



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