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[GNW II] and Good vs Evil

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killerco	Posted - 2006.04.04 10:54:00 - [61] Originally by: Evil Nurse Many people are talking about the good versus ebil in EvE and the lack of epic clashes between the two sides. BoB is evil, this is their game; EVOL, ex-MOO, ex-TPS, ex-CA and now DICE aka ATUK, i mean c'mon this is the army of darkness. On the other corner you have what: Celestial Apocalypse? i am just joking obviously (ignore that). What alliances are actively fighting this menace, the ebil mastermind? Oh i know who ... GIRONZOR. But GIRONZOR were too busy setting all the northern alliances on -10 and after that started a futile invasion in D7 vs FE/5/KAOS, burning all the bridges to fight a real ebil opponent. GIRONZOR by declaring hostility against the weakened PA/NBSI/FE has ensured the quicker demize of the weakest alliances and the controversed NAP between FE/5. If they would've looked at the evemap closer they would've realized that they should've helped FE at least not to find themselves surrounded. Now ASCN/AXE/BoB/5 took the fight to them in Pure Blind, took their carebear outpost and now GIRONZOR must find an alternate route to get home because the main route is too laggy due to the zerging of the dark armies moving to stage 2. <insert nice img here with [G] POS'es in EC-P8R laying in ruin> That being said i can't see the conflicts in EvE as good vs evil, but rather stupid vs evil. If i will ever have to choose betwen stupid and evil i, as citizen of EvE choose evil. Maybe in the near future "the good" will no longer do such stupid things so we can finally have a ballance and some damn fun. We evil? No we Hobbits who have come too destroy the one ring
Miramax	Posted - 2006.04.04 10:54:00 - [62] Originally by: Body Count Originally by: Evil Nurse That being said i can't see the conflicts in EvE as good vs evil, but rather stupid vs evil. If i will ever have to choose betwen stupid and evil i, as citizen of EvE choose evil. Maybe in the near future "the good" will no longer do such stupid things so we can finally have a ballance and some damn fun. QFT. While Eve doesn't lend itself to normal black and white morality very well I'd say BoB and .5 are the closest thing to true evil in this game. "Nice region, we'll take it!" is not the slogan of good guys. ASCN and F-E aren't evil. Traitors and band wagon jumpers perhaps. But mainly I see them along for the ride. Right now the two sides appear to be one highly motivated and disciplined force that's well equipped and has legions of fan bois riding along with it. The other force while also disciplined and experienced is severely outnumbered and is beset on almost all sides. Soon the choice won't be between good and evil or stupid and evil. The choice will be evil or empire. If Iron/G/Razor falls and BoB puts up another puppet alliance in their place what's left? Outer Ring and parts of Syndicate which can't withstand the BoB Horde by itself. RA space which is itself under siege by all of it's neighbors. And Stain which is itself under attack now. If BoB and friends win here which could easily happen you might as well just get yourself a BoB travel pass before entering 0.0 Because every alliance will either be outright dominated by BoB or will be forced to maintain friendly relations with them. It'd be nice if G/Iron could make nice-nice with all the other corps and alliances and form a real force capable of restoring balance to Eve. Without that the might as well consider renaming this game to "BoB Online" exactly what i was thinking
Emno	Posted - 2006.04.04 10:55:00 - [63] Originally by: WhiteSnake Iron are harvesting what they seed in the north this past year. -- they are bringing smash alliance to fight against PA, note that period iron had positive standings towards PA. After some talks with G, they are quiting that plan -- they are not co-operating to set common standings, they nap with corporations hostile to other northen alliances without informing anyone, so there are lots of "friendly" shootings. -- from time to time they are entering in PA space shooting pilots and provoke -- then they are reseting their standings and make PA neutral -- after they are making some deal with r.i.s.k alliance and once again trying to destroy PA (not confirmed unfortunately) -- .5 are attacking PA and F-E. this time once again g/iron are called for help, their answer is "we are not going to fight for regions we will not keep", their plan for moving to tenal-branch is going well, they are already bringing puppet corporations to populate deklein, probably to fill the gap afterwards. -- .5 and F-E are napping and fighting against PA/NBSI, the north is at civil war, g/iron are waiting for this war to come to an end, and right after they are attacking f-e. Did I forget anything so far? So how is it possible for IRON to be so arrogant? They have BoB at their backyard and at the same time ware making plans for dominating the north? Did Bob turned to soft target, or IRON become the ultimate alliance? G and razor made a wrong choice, they should never let buddrow make politics when his first sentence was always starting like " I dont give a shi*t.." Hard to tell who is good and who is evil. Pick up a side and fight. R.I.P. g/iron rofl tin foil hat for you \o/
El Covah	Posted - 2006.04.04 11:06:00 - [64] Originally by: pershphanie It was G/IRON/RZR's fault for prancing around like they were all uber. Setting all the other northern alliances to neutral/negitive acting like they were just too cool to associate with us. If they wouldnt have done that perhaps they could gather the forces to counter what happend in ec-p8r. Perhaps not be able to outblob it, but you dont necessarily need to outblob someone to prevent a dread attack. Ive gotta say.. G/iron deserve this for their lack of vision on the big picture. I did not often agree with persh but this time I do in most points. The arrogance of G alliance with that they first came to PA territory for an intensive mining OP stripping all valuables (which we of course allowed you due to good relationships) and a few days after declaring PA -10 was unbeatable - FIVE was more honest at this time: They stated out at least on which side they stand.
Invisible Touch	Posted - 2006.04.04 11:08:00 - [65] Originally by: WhiteSnake Did I forget anything so far? Yes, tons of little stuff. i.e. G mining and refining in BKG just a week before expressing their death wish on PA, IRON shooting PA'ers who had them blue on overview just for fun, that Buddrow guy being so "honorable" in talks about compensations, and trillions other signs of true "friendship"... Nothing bad that I know/heard of about RZR though. Idiots are shooting shuttles to score some kills remember?
El Covah	Posted - 2006.04.04 11:13:00 - [66] Originally by: Invisible Touch Nothing bad that I know/heard of about RZR though. Yes, sorry. Same here too, RAZOR where OK. IRON are somehow a part of G as they self stated out a few days ago here. So same to IRON.
Ordep	Posted - 2006.04.04 11:18:00 - [67] Not that you or i care but all over the time i have been in game, the so called Dark side or Evil side, always has been more honourable and agreement fullfill then the good side. The so called "Good Guys" always backstabbing you and not fullfilling the agreements they make. All in all theres no Good and Evil. All you have is YOUR side and OTHERS side. The rest is landscape. Made in Portugal
Evil Nurse	Posted - 2006.04.04 13:00:00 - [68] Originally by: Ordep Not that you or i care but all over the time i have been in game, the so called Dark side or Evil side, always has been more honourable and agreement fullfill then the good side. The so called "Good Guys" always backstabbing you and not fullfilling the agreements they make. All in all theres no Good and Evil. All you have is YOUR side and OTHERS side. The rest is landscape. I can't disagree with this, politically speaking giron has made quite a strange choice carrying out a war effort against FE - huge alliance and The Five - that shattered the north, while giron had BoB in their back yard. As persh, BoB, whitesnake and others have pointed out, giron leaders have brought their people in a very delicate situation. Another political mistake was bringing the proven leadership of The Five and the tremendous firepower of FE fighting a comon enemy, an invader making them comrades in arms. What i don't yet understand is the razor position since the beginning of this conflict. What is known is that they came straight in venal engaging the fortified forces of PA which didn't look to good in terms of the [G] claiming that the primary targets were FE/5. Is razor an uncontrollable small force in [G]'s hand that sometimes "missfires"?
DeadDuck	Posted - 2006.04.04 13:23:00 - [69] Originally by: pershphanie RZR should probably the the uber talk to G. G at least are pretty bad ass in fleets. RZR has never done anything to be bragging about. They are nothing, have never been anything, and never will be anything. Enjoy your life as wannabee's. Razor is still a very young alliance. We have our friends and our enemys, we alsow have a strong feeling of loyalty. We can die because of that but thats our own choice. Of course we could "adapt" to the new situations and make a NAP with -5-, BOB, ASCN and declare war to G/Iron, there are here people capable of that ... actually that kind of people could actually make a alliance grow a lot ... but how sick I would feel belonging to a Alliance like that... BOB and 5 dont hide what they want, FE dont know... you "adapt" to quick ...
Darknesss	Posted - 2006.04.04 15:31:00 - [70] All this talk of good and evil.. gives me a headache.. i kill things because thats what i play to do, just like BoB and the 5 and every other "evil" person does, the economics of eve dont interest me in the slightest. But while saying that good luck to G and IRON.. and 5 and BoB i may come north for some good fights which you always provide. Call me evil, im making a living and having fun
Kiyoshi Aphelion	Posted - 2006.04.04 15:33:00 - [71] Originally by: Darknesss Call me evil, im making a living and having fun Evil!
Haniblecter Teg	Posted - 2006.04.04 15:46:00 - [72] Originally by: pershphanie Edited by: pershphanie on 04/04/2006 10:09:01 Originally by: Gouglash I know I shouldn't respond to a stupid alt post, but I'm bored. How is it GIRONZOR's fault for upsetting balance by declaring all the north/northeast hostile? Before the EC-P8R thing, we were having quite a bit of fun. Fights went back and forth. Focus switched from D7- to H-W to little fun POS ganks in G96 and so on. We had plenty of fun fleet battles. We had lots of fun ganksquad nights. Smacktalkers were yelled at more than the opposing sides yelled at each other. It was a balanced, challenging war for both sides. Then, EC-P8R gets superblobbed, and it's somehow GIRONZOR's fault for... what exactly? Not expecting PA, NBSI and F-E to all fail at defending their collective space from a single (admittedly very strong) corp? By the time the war started against them all, F-E had already NAPed ATUK. And it's GIRONZOR's fault for upsetting balance? Get real. Our only fault was dreaming that maybe we'd actually be allowed to see the completion of a full war, to the exclusivity of others, before the vulture types decided to interfere. Clearly we were wrong. Some people cannot pass up the opportunity to double up, or in this case quadruple up, on a common enemy, instead of letting something resemble fun take place. I know, I'm bitter. TBH, I'm just sick of having to leave campaign after campaign after campaign to put up with BoB's **. It was G/IRON/RZR's fault for prancing around like they were all uber. Setting all the other northern alliances to neutral/negitive acting like they were just too cool to associate with us. If they wouldnt have done that perhaps they could gather the forces to counter what happend in ec-p8r. Perhaps not be able to outblob it, but you dont necessarily need to outblob someone to prevent a dread attack. Ive gotta say.. G/iron deserve this for their lack of vision on the big picture. "Your alliance needs to learn to stand on its own two feet" - Buddrow[IRON](y) The rest of North had aids. .5. was the cold that killed FE/PA/NBSI. Can you blame us for quarantining you lepers? ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever**
Drunk Driver	Posted - 2006.04.04 15:49:00 - [73] Am I the only one that thought it was funny that EVIL Nurse is talking about good and evil?
Creepalone	Posted - 2006.04.04 16:04:00 - [74] i am sure there will be a time when bob/.5 maybe f-e fights ascn, you will see. at moment they fight together because they both see an enemy in g/iron/razor. but think about numbers, it is 1000 against 6000 and this is no real challenge. the only thing which would be interesting is when equal numbers fight. maybe both are too much afraid fighting each other at moment. but times will change and maybe we see a equal battle between the superpowers bob and ascn sometimes.
Mather Maelstrom	Posted - 2006.04.04 16:08:00 - [75] Edited by: Mather Maelstrom on 04/04/2006 16:08:51 G and Iron lack any RP and I do not mean the U'K and CVA kind of RP. BoB and many of the other alliances have an objective and have a certain way of going around eve. G and Iron imo have their strong group of PvP-ers and the rest of eve is just a possible target for them. There doesn't seem much thought behind a certain move; they fight a war because that is what they enjoy about the game. The way these two play the game I think is completely different. I would say one takes a more realistic approach to the game then the other. BoB is the Final Fantasy and Dungeons and Dragons alliance. GIRON is the Unreal Tournament and Return to Castle Wolfenstein alliance. Yeah I know it doesn't make much sense //No Pro Gallente RP, no Coreli & Cyrene anymore\\
Jasmine Constantine	Posted - 2006.04.04 16:18:00 - [76] Originally by: DeadDuck Razor is still a very young alliance. We have our friends and our enemys, we alsow have a strong feeling of loyalty. We can die because of that but thats our own choice. Of course we could "adapt" to the new situations and make a NAP with -5-, BOB, ASCN and declare war to G/Iron, there are here people capable of that ... actually that kind of people could actually make a alliance grow a lot ... but how sick I would feel belonging to a Alliance like that... BOB and 5 dont hide what they want, FE dont know... you "adapt" to quick ... I think this is actually quite a misleading opinion. RAZOR might be technically a "new" alliance but it is based on very very old principles - literally the + and - standings regime from the pre GNW period. Our own experience as a corp trying to conduct diplomacy with RAZOR has failed every time on the vendettas and grudges at the core of the RAZOR alliance management team. We've pretty concluded that RAZOR is a snapshot of history post PA foundation / prior to the GNW and an expression of the kind of arrogance that led to the downfall of the first stage PA entity. If you take a long hard look at your alliance mates DeadDuck, you have Cutting Edge who were hardcore PA anti everyone non-PA in the days of the GNW, you have Bladerunners who are on an eternal crusade against anyone who won't set Evol, RKK, BNC and co to -10KOS, and you have a couple of more recent additions. RAZOR policy was a) defend PA and fight its feuds (or the inherited feuds from ex PA / "new" RAZOR members). b) progress standings enclosurism around 5zxx to make a buffer state for PA/IRON/NBSI etc. c) backstab PA and NBSI and FE when you perceived they were weak. Those weren't decisions made by a new alliance, they were the kind of decisions that old hands with agendas and deep rooted likes and dislikes and old vendettas make. If RAZOR ever had any serious claim to being a "new" entity you should have zero'ed standings and engaged in diplomacy without preconditions and old agendas. But your talk of being able to just "NAP" 5/BoB/FE etc etc is nonsense. Even if those entities were interested in NAP's with RAZOR the personalities of your alliance leaders make any kind of diplomatic dialogue impossible due to the weight of grudge and old hatreds guiding their thinking. You are fooling yourself if you think RAZOR could do anything other than precisely what it is doing -> fighting a crusade against its GNW era enemies to try to undo the memory of an ancient defeat. Thats the whole message and principle and purpose and ideology of RAZOR. Its an old boys club for people that didn't like the result of the GNW and decided to try and win it anew. Its also a bit silly for you to talk of loyalty given the way you dumped your old allies and friends to back the powerplay of IRON/G in the north don't you think? In conclusion though the whole premise of this thread is a bit silly. Good and Evil? ORLY tbh. There is only one difference between the morality and approach of BoB and IRON/G/RAZOR. BoB is more honest about what it enjoys doing. IRON/G/RAZOR pretend to be benign and then play the tyrant anyhow when people's backs are turned. Sure both sets of pilots will shoot up neutrals and gate camp and attempt to dominate space but where BoB genuinely doesn't care about the opinions and livelihood of small independents in their campaigning zones - IRON/G/RAZOR do ... whats that you say, "surely caring about little corps is GOOD?" Not in this case, because "caring" means "taxing" "ruling" "bullying" and enforcing standings enclosurism with bully-boy tactics and strong-arm tyranny to enforce the power of their prejudices. A great singer once mused that "nothing is a cruel as the righteousness of innocence (with automatic weapons and a gospel of truth)" And thats so true. Bob will just kill you. IRON/G/RAZOR want to brainwash and drink your soul. This really isn't about good or evil. _________________
liquidism	Posted - 2006.04.04 16:35:00 - [77] jade: brainwash and drink souls? whoa. i thought i was all about the pvp. were talking bout the same game right
Xeriuz	Posted - 2006.04.04 16:38:00 - [78] there is no GNW II there will only be one and the war that was,is now was simply an elimitanion of an entety that needed to be destroyed. ______________________________________________ X You Never Know What You Have Until You Lose It
Goberth Ludwig	Posted - 2006.04.04 16:44:00 - [79] My opinion of razor is sinking... cant believe some of the bitter bulls*** I have been reading in this thread. - Gob (my nubie attempt at a forum sig, bare with me plz :p)
Deidranna	Posted - 2006.04.04 16:45:00 - [80] Originally by: Ordep Originally by: liquidism Originally by: Evil Nurse But GIRONZOR were too busy setting all the northern alliances on -10 wrong, just back from + to neutral standing Different signs, same meaning. wrong for the usual "look we are cool and gank everything we can to feed our killboard" alliance, it might be no differnce g, iron and a very few others actually respekt the meaning of neutral standings. waits for 10000000000000 letter post from JF deidranna
dabster	Posted - 2006.04.04 16:46:00 - [81] Originally by: Moridan Originally by: Blacklight There is no black and white, good vs evil in Eve. Only shades of grey all coloured by self interest. Good = Beer Evil = Jita rofl qft! ___________________________ Brutors Rule! My Eve-vids; Click.
Jasmine Constantine	Posted - 2006.04.04 16:48:00 - [82] Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 04/04/2006 16:52:03 Originally by: liquidism : brainwash and drink souls? whoa. i thought i was all about the pvp. were talking bout the same game right Lol okay, since its the ooc forum I can admit thats a bit poetic but you take the point right? BoB will just kill you. IRON/G/RAZOR want to set your standings for you and tell you who you can and can't be friends with and what rules you have to follow and whether you can post on the forums or not and etc etc and 101 other little rules and regs dreamed up by their tyrannical empire building dreamers. You play for the pvp and thats cool. I play to oppose memetic imperialism and shoot jumped up space dictators in the face. From my perpective you guys telling us what to think and who we can like and who we can't and where we can go and where we can't is attempted brainwashing. Its worse than dying. No way some guy from G tells me who my friends can be and if I ever did submit and bent my knee to the G/IRON/RAZOR dictatorship would I have a soul left ? (not in terms of in-game independence I wouldn't) _________________
Jasmine Constantine	Posted - 2006.04.04 16:51:00 - [83] Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 04/04/2006 16:51:21 Originally by: Deidranna g, iron and a very few others actually respekt the meaning of neutral standings.waits for 10000000000000 letter post from JF deidranna I would respectfully point out that you aren't telling the truth. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=297994 Follow that link and then explain to me how shooting everyone who isn't positive equates to respecting the meaning of neutral standings please. _________________
Yaedaen	Posted - 2006.04.04 16:51:00 - [84] Originally by: Blacklight There is no black and white, good vs evil in Eve. Only shades of grey all coloured by self interest. I disagree, you could argue the same thing about Star Wars or TLoR. I mean, if you're an orc then Frodo was a jerk who was just trying to mess up everything you and the dark lord worked so hard to put in place. What seperates the good from the evil in anything is the difference in goals and methods, the good don't seek to subjugate anything and everything they can get their hands on, turning on allies when it suits them or they become bored. The good don't use objectionable methods to achieve their goals. Blobbing is a decidedly insidious form of warfare, considering that it does not even allow the enemies a realistic opportunity to retaliate and defend their investment.
DeadDuck	Posted - 2006.04.04 16:53:00 - [85] When I said NAP 5 or Iron is just one way of "adapting" to "new incovenient situations" in this precise case I really think that would be tottaly impossible and in the end nobody in RAzor BOB or 5 would want that. I was just stating how I see the RAZOR/G/IRON relation: This 3 Alliances fight together, die together, win together. I like to be part of such type of alliances. They prefer to die figthing, then survive no matter the cost. It's a game no more then that. I bring ideology to EVE and keep the pragmatic part top real life.
Goberth Ludwig	Posted - 2006.04.04 17:00:00 - [86] Originally by: DeadDuck I was just stating how I see the RAZOR/G/IRON relation: This 3 Alliances fight together, die together, win together. I like to be part of such type of alliances. They prefer to die figthing, then survive no matter the cost. how is that different from southern alliances and their naps? - Gob (my nubie attempt at a forum sig, bare with me plz :p)
Jasmine Constantine	Posted - 2006.04.04 17:00:00 - [87] Originally by: Yaedaen Originally by: Blacklight There is no black and white, good vs evil in Eve. Only shades of grey all coloured by self interest. I disagree, you could argue the same thing about Star Wars or TLoR. I mean, if you're an orc then Frodo was a jerk who was just trying to mess up everything you and the dark lord worked so hard to put in place. What seperates the good from the evil in anything is the difference in goals and methods, the good don't seek to subjugate anything and everything they can get their hands on, turning on allies when it suits them or they become bored. The good don't use objectionable methods to achieve their goals. Blobbing is a decidedly insidious form of warfare, considering that it does not even allow the enemies a realistic opportunity to retaliate and defend their investment. Of course in Eve there is no separation on the baseline for territorial alliances. As I've said already. BoB and G/IRON/RAZOR have the same ideology and the same aspirations pretty much - dominating 0.0. Only difference is that BoB are honest about what they want and G/IRON/RAZOR is not. So why does that make the an honest aggressor worse than a dishonest aggressor? If you want to see the good guys in Eve look at ISS, look at corps with a NRDS methodology, look at non territorial anti pirates and corps that don't roadblock and restrict 0.0. There aren't many, there really aren't. But don't delude yourself into thinking this current northern struggle is the good and noble imperialist roadblockers of G/IRON/RAZOR vs the ebil blobbing invaders of BOB. Ask any corp who fell afoul of the standings enclosurist policies of IRON and friends over the last 12 months what the true meaning of evil is and you'll probably get a post describing government by angry child and vendetta and KOS unless you KOS X,Y,Z demands to draft a carebear shield into battles which don't concern them. This is fight between big bad power-hungry pvp alliance blocs. One of them has the power to enforce their aspirations and the other does not. Thats really as far as it goes. The only sensible way to choose between them is to try and remember which one tells the most lies and which one backstabs the most. If you are going to go on living in the universe after its better to have a honest villain than a false friend. _________________
Emno	Posted - 2006.04.04 17:04:00 - [88] Originally by: Goberth Ludwig Originally by: DeadDuck I was just stating how I see the RAZOR/G/IRON relation: This 3 Alliances fight together, die together, win together. I like to be part of such type of alliances. They prefer to die figthing, then survive no matter the cost. how is that different from southern alliances and their naps? its rare for g/iron/rzr to work alone its rare for the southern nap block to work together
Goberth Ludwig	Posted - 2006.04.04 17:14:00 - [89] Originally by: Emno Originally by: Goberth Ludwig Originally by: DeadDuck I was just stating how I see the RAZOR/G/IRON relation: This 3 Alliances fight together, die together, win together. I like to be part of such type of alliances. They prefer to die figthing, then survive no matter the cost. how is that different from southern alliances and their naps? its rare for g/iron/rzr to work alone its rare for the southern nap block to work together you dont need to be in the same system to be working together - Gob (my nubie attempt at a forum sig, bare with me plz :p)
Harisdrop	Posted - 2006.04.04 17:29:00 - [90] Its a game, Boom and zoom. Nothing more or less. We only are looking at a screen. This game is not any exstention of the person behind the screen. We are are players nothing more or less. -------------------------- I have big balls of Plasma coming out of my guns. Come chat eveteamspeak.com RSS

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