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Nemesis Factor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
16
   |
Posted - 2011.11.10 07:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
One thing that always bothered me about missiles was the lack of difference between ammo types. The only difference between the types of a class of missile is the damage type, which I feel is the primary reason behind Caldari dominance in PVE. They can pick and choose their damage type with no loss in performance. Combined with their infinite range it gives them a clear advantage for most PVE scenarios.
The closest comparison we can make is with drones. The clear difference between drones is the damage types, but every drone is different insofar as speed, inertia, range, etc. Why is this not done with missiles? Give certain damage types different advantages or disadvantages to mix things up a bit.
Lets compare a couple of sentry drones to a couple of cruise missiles for argument's sake. The Garde has high thermal damage, as well as superior tracking to other sentries. However it's disadvantage is it's very low optimal range (<30KM). The Warden has an extreme range (70KM optimal), but less damage (in kinetic) and poor tracking. Even if we could carry all types of sentry drones (which we cannot, compared to a Raven with every type of missile), we would be unable to have a drone for every situation. For instance an orbiting Sansha at 75KM, which is strong against Kinetic is far beyond the range of my Gardes. I have to hope I brought some Ogres, but with a limited drone bay, it's not likely.
I think missiles need to be looked at, not only for their overlooked equality, but for their insane ranges (cruise missiles still fly like, 300KM right?). If there is no scenario where it might be a good idea to fit a missile flight time rig or two with cruise missiles, then the system is flawed. When I bring my drones to a mission, I have to take into account enemy range, weaknesses, radial velocity, etc. Missile users need only consider the damage types. How is that fair? |
Nemesis Factor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.10 21:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:What?
Most Caldari missile ships get bonuses only to Kinetic missiles.
Minmatar can change damage type at will too.
Missiles do not have infinite range. They have a velocity and a maximum flight time. Do the math.
The range thing was a joke. ie: Cruise missiles can fly farther than you could ever hope or need to target. They may as well fly forever is what I'm saying. If you read carefully you can see where I wrote 300KM somewhere. And that's just optimal. To match the damage I have to use antimatter which gives me an optimal of like, 18KM. Anyway, not the point.
I'm not talking about ship bonuses, I'm taking about the default statistics for the ammo only.
Also, if you look at Minmatar ammo, you will see damage types are not the only difference between them.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Ammunition_&_Charges:Projectile_Ammo:Standard_Ammo:Large
Projectile users also have to take into consideration base shield damage, base armor damage, range bonus/penalties AND tracking bonus/penalites. In addition to this, although they have better damage selection typing than lasers or hybrids, they STILL have to split their damage between two types.
As I said, why do missile users ONLY have to take damage types into account? Why don't they have to split their damage types? Why do they have unnecessarily long range without mods or skills?
Am I wrong? Someone should be able to explain why they have this advantage. Please don't mention NPC tendancy to use defenders. Those could easily be toned down if missiles were balanced and no one uses them in pvp. travel time doesn't warrant this kind of advantage. |
Nemesis Factor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.10 21:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:Is this a case of "OMG NERF SOMETHING I DON'T USE!!!" ?
It's a missile, it goes to a target and it does its thing.
Why are you on the defensive? You have the same argument as cap ship pilots. |
Nemesis Factor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.10 21:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
I don't think tweaking missiles to be more inline with other weapon's ammo would significantly hurt them. I have no complaints about DPS, I would even be for a damage buff and reduced defenders if we could only get them to do split damage types and variable range and damage like very other weapon. They may be balanced in pvp scenarios but they are certainly not in PVE.
Edit: And do cruise missiles really need the range they currently have? Like I said there should be a reason to fit travel time mods with cruise missiles. |
Nemesis Factor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.10 21:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
Can't tell where you are coming from? Are you suggesting that I am suggesting we give missiles the same stats as guns? And we make all the guns have the same stats? |
Nemesis Factor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.10 23:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kuhn Arashi wrote:
Cruise missiles wouldn't really be cruise missiles if they couldn't cruise across the grid.
But really, when is the last time you saw Cruise missiles in PVP?
-In solo pvp, they're only advantage is range, which means the target is just going to laugh and run away.
-In small gang pvp you might have one or two ships at long range from a group or gate camp that sling missiles
but they'll be lucky to hit them for much, if at all before the target is dead.
-in fleet pvp, since missiles take so long to travel, enemy logistics will know who to rep before the damage is applied
almost completely negating your actual damage on target.
Aside from cruise missile range, the other missiles are balanced well enough with other weapons systems.
I would like to see a damage buff to Heavy Assault missiles though, Heavies are too close in dps when range and exp radius are taken into effect.
I'm not arguing PVP applications. i'm sure there is a way to balance them without affecting pvp too much. |
Nemesis Factor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.10 23:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
Then take it away and give it something else.
Look, have something as significant as an entire weapon class be good at pve, but bad at pvp is unacceptable. Buff their pvp centric abilities and nerf the pve ones. |
Nemesis Factor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 00:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kietay Ayari wrote:I will accept split damages and range differences on missiles if you make them do instant damage like every other weapon type :D
silly silly silly
Given the choice I know which one I would rather have, considering NPCs don't warp off.
Why don't we make heavy drones instantly reach their targets too? If you want to talk about travel times look at them. Each drone flies at a different speed and does a different amount of damage. Granted you can pick your damage types, but each has a downside.
I'm not saying hit missiles with every drawback of every other type, but you need at least one more. variable speeds, split damage, explosion radius, explosion speed, just pick one. |
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