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Buck Futz
New Order Logistics
CODE.
140
   |
Posted - 2014.02.15 23:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm sure that many of you have seen the brilliant viral Youtube video referenced.
A painstakingly-created MS Paint masterpiece which shows the ever-changing state of battlelines and shifting fortunes of the combatants, one frame for each day - at a rate of about 3 days/second. Meaning the whole video lasts about 7 minutes.
Best of all its set to music and famous radio clips of various events throughout the conflict.
Was particularly impressed by the way the second (french horn) piece was set perfectly to Operation Barbarossa and the German drive to Stalingrad in 1942. Definitely gives you the feeling, "OK, playtime in France is over, its 1941, now **** gets serious."
Oh, and Finland got its own color. Go Finland, you rock! Maybe you'll even get a gold medal in the Winter Olympics this year.
ANYWAY, so I posted in EVE's General Discussion: what does this have to do with EVE? Well, the obvious, of course. Anybody ever tried doing something like this for EVE, showing the ebb and flow of major nullsec power blocks going back to 2005 or so?
Rise and fall of BOB, the destruction of ASCN, Goonswarm ascendant, and the eventual formation of pan-alliance power blocks....? |
Nicolai Serkanner
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
58
|
Posted - 2014.02.16 00:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
Buck Futz wrote:
Oh, and Finland got its own color. Go Finland, you rock! Maybe you'll even get a gold medal in the Winter Olympics this year.
You do know Finland sided with the Axis from 1941 to 1944?
|
Kiryen O'Bannon
Thrall Nation
Brave Collective
60
|
Posted - 2014.02.16 00:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
They did, mainly because the Germans were the only available ally against the Soviets. For the most part, the Finns tried to keep ****** at arms length, and certainly didn't participate in his genocidal programs.
Britain declared war on Finland, but never took more than token action against them, and the U.S. never declared war on them at all. I don't think Canada did either. While the Russians may not have liked this, they were in no position to complain given A) how they got into Finland in the first place, B) that they needed materiel from the US and badly wanted the second front opened, and C) that they weren't helping against the Japanese until the last weeks of the war, either. |
Buck Futz
New Order Logistics
CODE.
140
|
Posted - 2014.02.16 00:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Buck Futz wrote:
Oh, and Finland got its own color. Go Finland, you rock! Maybe you'll even get a gold medal in the Winter Olympics this year.
You do know Finland sided with the Axis from 1941 to 1944?
Of course. I spent a lot of time as an expat in Finland, so have a decent understanding of the position they were in.
Their 'Talvisota' defensive campaign against the Red Army invasion in 1940 is legendary.
Tanks and bombers, 10 to 1 advantage in manpower vs rifles, skis and Molotov cocktails.
Not so much that Finland 'picked' a side in World War II, as the side picked them - Soviet Union saw to that. |
Esteban Dragonovic
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
69
|
Posted - 2014.02.16 00:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieT5r1c51aQ
This is about as good as you are going to get. I know some player made maps still exist of the earliest days, but you are not going to be able to get the same level of detail out of those (on a monthly level). |
Buck Futz
New Order Logistics
CODE.
140
|
Posted - 2014.02.16 00:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Esteban Dragonovic wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieT5r1c51aQ
This is about as good as you are going to get. I know some player made maps still exist of the earliest days, but you are not going to be able to get the same level of detail out of those (on a monthly level).
Thats a pretty slick video, TBH.
As a non-participant in nul-sec politics, it can be hard to follow sometimes.
The time-lapse map is a great way to visualize some of the conflicts that have occurred out there over the years, and seeing 'what eventually happened' to old alliances that don't exist anymore.
Remember reading about ATLAS getting dismantled by Solar, but this allows you to watch the battle played out in seconds.
Watching BOB destroy MC, then implode - then Goons in turn, lose Delve - and get replaced by IT while Goons reorganize.
Fun stuff.
Thanks for that link! |
Kinis Deren
The Nyan Cat Pirates
Disband.
276
|
Posted - 2014.02.16 01:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
That alliance video is pretty crap tbh. Anyone that has a smidgen of interest in null sec life knows that coalitions, NIPS & NAPS are the orfer of the day and have been for a long while.
Into PVP & looking for small gang focused, NPC Null corp? Check out The Nyan Cat Pirates!
Corp CEO looking for an easy going, none sov, PVP alliance? Join Disband. today! |
Nicolai Serkanner
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
59
|
Posted - 2014.02.16 11:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:They did, mainly because the Germans were the only available ally against the Soviets. For the most part, the Finns tried to keep ****** at arms length, and certainly didn't participate in his genocidal programs.
Britain declared war on Finland, but never took more than token action against them, and the U.S. never declared war on them at all. I don't think Canada did either. While the Russians may not have liked this, they were in no position to complain given A) how they got into Finland in the first place, B) that they needed materiel from the US and badly wanted the second front opened, and C) that they weren't helping against the Japanese until the last weeks of the war, either.
They continued to fight for the Germans until 1944. In which time frame the Holocaust broke lose in all earnest. By supporting the Germans they prolonged the war and with that the suffering, also that of the victims of the Holocaust. |
Nicolai Serkanner
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
59
|
Posted - 2014.02.16 11:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
Buck Futz wrote:Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Buck Futz wrote:
Oh, and Finland got its own color. Go Finland, you rock! Maybe you'll even get a gold medal in the Winter Olympics this year.
You do know Finland sided with the Axis from 1941 to 1944? Of course. I spent a lot of time as an expat in Finland, so have a decent understanding of the position they were in. Their 'Talvisota' defensive campaign against the Red Army invasion in 1940 is legendary. Tanks and bombers, 10 to 1 advantage in manpower vs rifles, skis and Molotov cocktails. Not so much that Finland 'picked' a side in World War II, as the side picked them - Soviet Union saw to that.
They continued to fight for the Germans after the armistice with the Sowjets. That IS picking the wrong side.
|
Buck Futz
New Order Logistics
CODE.
143
|
Posted - 2014.02.16 12:54:00 -
[10] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:
They continued to fight for the Germans after the armistice with the Sowjets. That IS picking the wrong side.
-You realize that the 1940 'Armistice' came with large, unpopular territorial concessions - including the second largest Finnish city at the time, right?
-You also realize that Stalin was aggressively swallowing his smaller neighbors (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland) like it was going out of style, right? Ask the Estonians what they think about the 'Soviet Terror'. While they were not 'thrilled' with German wartime occupation and conscription policies - their attitude towards Russia was, and continues to be far more hostile. Finland was also slated for permanent occupation, had the Finns not decimated the Red invasion force and turned Stalin's Communist puppet-government into an international joke.
Given that, its really no surprise that Finland resumed hostilities the following year, to regain their stolen territory.
And laying the Holocaust at their feet is pretty ignorant. The Finnish government did not participate in German racial policies, and the leadership remained committed to democracy throughout the war. German leadership rarely got favorable concessions from Finland because their military formations were proven highly effective in the field. Very stark contrast to many other nations that fought on the side of Germany. |
Ralen Zateki
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2014.02.16 13:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
Never saw that... pretty cool... being a history buff and all. Would be cool, especially for noobs like me, to see something like this for EVE. All the abbreviations and alliance names, etc. etc. make a persons head swim at first. Would be cool to have a visual linking all the noise with a map... |
Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
239
|
Posted - 2014.02.16 17:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
Heh. Set a blue donut to music? The martial activity in THIS game would have a soundtrack akin to the momentary crash of a stack of falling dishes. Plus, a lot of vacuous bragging, and pitiful sobbing when the noise dies down...I guess that could be merged with the Halleluiah Chorus....
Dont fight it; Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs; You know you want to. |
Nicolai Serkanner
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
60
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 19:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
Buck Futz wrote:Nicolai Serkanner wrote:
They continued to fight for the Germans after the armistice with the Sowjets. That IS picking the wrong side.
-You realize that the 1940 'Armistice' came with large, unpopular territorial concessions - including the second largest Finnish city at the time, right? -You also realize that Stalin was aggressively swallowing his smaller neighbors (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland) like it was going out of style, right? Ask the Estonians what they think about the 'Soviet Terror'. While they were not 'thrilled' with German wartime occupation and conscription policies - their attitude towards Russia was, and continues to be far more hostile. Finland was also slated for permanent occupation, had the Finns not decimated the Red invasion force and turned Stalin's Communist puppet-government into an international joke. Given that, its really no surprise that Finland resumed hostilities the following year, to regain their stolen territory. And laying the Holocaust at their feet is pretty ignorant. The Finnish government did not participate in German racial policies, and the leadership remained committed to democracy throughout the war. German leadership rarely got favorable concessions from Finland because their military formations were proven highly effective in the field. Very stark contrast to many other nations that fought on the side of Germany.
|
Nicolai Serkanner
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
60
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 19:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
Buck Futz wrote:
They continued to fight for the Germans after the armistice with the Sowjets. That IS picking the wrong side.
-You realize that the 1940 'Armistice' came with large, unpopular territorial concessions - including the second largest Finnish city at the time, right?
-You also realize that Stalin was aggressively swallowing his smaller neighbors (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland) like it was going out of style, right? Ask the Estonians what they think about the 'Soviet Terror'. While they were not 'thrilled' with German wartime occupation and conscription policies - their attitude towards Russia was, and continues to be far more hostile. Finland was also slated for permanent occupation, had the Finns not decimated the Red invasion force and turned Stalin's Communist puppet-government into an international joke.
Given that, its really no surprise that Finland resumed hostilities the following year, to regain their stolen territory.
And laying the Holocaust at their feet is pretty ignorant. The Finnish government did not participate in German racial policies, and the leadership remained committed to democracy throughout the war. German leadership rarely got favorable concessions from Finland because their military formations were proven highly effective in the field. Very stark contrast to many other nations that fought on the side of Germany.
- Yes, I know that.
- Not "thrilled" with German occupation!!! Nowhere in Europe's occupied countries have the local people so willingly helped the Einsatzgruppen ( A in this case ) to DESTROY the local Jewish population ENTIRELY. German eye-witness reports ( and I have read them ) show us that they didn't even had to motivate the local population to commit these crimes. Theye din't need guns either ... they just beat the to death. The Germans at first had decided to "just" kill the men ... but are inspired by the locals to murder also all the women and children.
Your argument that the people from the Baltics and Finland had a bigger problem with the Sowjets than the Germans holds true till the moment the atrocities start. And even then ... it was widely known how Germany treated political opponents, gay people, gypsies, Jews, mentally ill ... this was not a secret. The people that wanted to know could know it but decided to look the other way ( read some books by Prof Ian Kershaw for a start on these subjects ). Not to mention that Germany had invaded and occupied most of Europe already ...
Finland joined the Germans because the Germans offered help after the Sowjet invasion. Already Finland knew what Germany was up to at the time because Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland had already been conquered. Exchanging one horrible regime for another doesn't make you a hero. It makes you an accomplish, guilty by association. Also of the holocaust, because when the mass killing started in earnest in 1942 Finland continued to help Germany to win their war.
NB: This subject is far to complicated to discuss in a forum about a space game. I will not respond to any follow up posts. If you feel a need to debate the subject, send me a PM. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
1472
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 20:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:They did, mainly because the Germans were the only available ally against the Soviets. For the most part, the Finns tried to keep ****** at arms length, and certainly didn't participate in his genocidal programs.
Britain declared war on Finland, but never took more than token action against them, and the U.S. never declared war on them at all. I don't think Canada did either. While the Russians may not have liked this, they were in no position to complain given A) how they got into Finland in the first place, B) that they needed materiel from the US and badly wanted the second front opened, and C) that they weren't helping against the Japanese until the last weeks of the war, either. They continued to fight for the Germans until 1944. In which time frame the Holocaust broke lose in all earnest. By supporting the Germans they prolonged the war and with that the suffering, also that of the victims of the Holocaust.
 oh please, slapping any blame for the Holocaust on the Fins is pretty sick
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Igor Nappi
Perkone
Caldari State
46
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 21:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
Meanwhile in Sweden...
Furthermore, I think that links must be removed from the game. |
Keldaur Iehemec
State War Academy
Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 21:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:[quote=Buck Futz][quote=Nicolai Serkanner][quote=Buck Futz]
They continued to fight for the Germans after the armistice with the Sowjets. That IS picking the wrong side.
You are either trolling or highly sensitive on the subject. Either way, Finnish intentions weren't wrong, they wanted to defend their country, and you can't blame them for protecting their land. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19436
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 21:58:00 -
[18] - Quote
Awww yeah. War-profiteering it up like it ain't no thang. 
Also, poor Leningrad. 
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
87
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 22:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Keldaur Iehemec wrote:Nicolai Serkanner wrote:[quote=Buck Futz][quote=Nicolai Serkanner][quote=Buck Futz]
They continued to fight for the Germans after the armistice with the Sowjets. That IS picking the wrong side.
You are either trolling or highly sensitive on the subject. Either way, Finnish intentions weren't wrong, they wanted to defend their country, and you can't blame them for protecting their land.
Remember kids, the Waffen-SS just wanted to protect their rightful land, which happened to include a few million square kilometers of your land. Oh and to exterminate the "vermin" which took it over... |
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
CODE.
3692
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 23:21:00 -
[20] - Quote
Another lesson is you can wardec French corps and they will immediately give up.
See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did. |
Sointu Luonnotar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
124
|
Posted - 2014.02.18 00:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:They continued to fight for the Germans until 1944. In which time frame the Holocaust broke lose in all earnest. By supporting the Germans they prolonged the war and with that the suffering, also that of the victims of the Holocaust.
Alright I'll bite. Finland did not fight for the Germans. They did not support the Germans - in fact Germany supported Finland and was one of the very few countries that was willing (let alone able) to do so. Really the choice was between starving and not having weapons to fight off aggressors, or accepting the resources of a questionable ally. In my opinion Finland did the best they could do between a rock and a hard place.
I was going to write a lengthier post but I think this discussion is already breaking forum rules of discussing politics, let alone discussing it in the wrong forum. |
Kiryen O'Bannon
Thrall Nation
Brave Collective
61
|
Posted - 2014.02.18 00:36:00 -
[22] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:They did, mainly because the Germans were the only available ally against the Soviets. For the most part, the Finns tried to keep ****** at arms length, and certainly didn't participate in his genocidal programs.
Britain declared war on Finland, but never took more than token action against them, and the U.S. never declared war on them at all. I don't think Canada did either. While the Russians may not have liked this, they were in no position to complain given A) how they got into Finland in the first place, B) that they needed materiel from the US and badly wanted the second front opened, and C) that they weren't helping against the Japanese until the last weeks of the war, either. They continued to fight for the Germans until 1944. In which time frame the Holocaust broke lose in all earnest. By supporting the Germans they prolonged the war and with that the suffering, also that of the victims of the Holocaust.
And the alternative was surrender to the Soviets, who were the aggressors against them in the first place. The behavior of the Soviets towards Finland and the fact that a liberal democracy needed to side with the Axis is an embarassment to the Allies.
Furthermore, German troops and equipment fighting in Finland weren't available to fight the Soviets on their main front, while the Soviets could have ceased fighting the Finns any time and moved their own troops to that front, since Finland had no ambitions beyond holding its own territory.
So no, Finland did not meaningfully prolong the war in any way. The were caught between 2 ambitious, brutsl dictators, and they certainly had no obligation to get steamrolled to hasten the victory of the Allies. |
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