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Zeonog
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Posted - 2006.04.12 21:08:00 -
[1]
I'm curious. I keep reading about the all powerful EULA and how it forbids this and that. Does it have any weighting in actual law.
I mean to say, if it went to a real life legal battle, does the EULA have any worth? Or is it just a fanboy's quoting tool to make them feel important?
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Scorpyn
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Posted - 2006.04.12 21:10:00 -
[2]
not sure about law but if you want to keep playing then you're gonna have to follow it obviously...
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meep meep
This sig will self-destruct. |
Zeonog
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Posted - 2006.04.12 21:14:00 -
[3]
Yup, I know that. I'm wondering this because it should be easy to stop people selling isk etc if it was against actual law. This won't be the case if the EULA has no legal basis.
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2006.04.12 21:15:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Zeonog
I'm curious. I keep reading about the all powerful EULA and how it forbids this and that. Does it have any weighting in actual law.
I mean to say, if it went to a real life legal battle, does the EULA have any worth? Or is it just a fanboy's quoting tool to make them feel important?
It's part of the 'terms of use'. Law, well, you could probably argue breach of contract. Which can often be a complicated affair. However for certain that if you break 'the rules' then CCP is quite within their rights to terminate the contract, (and ban your character)
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We are recruiting
We sell carriers. |
Naverin
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Posted - 2006.04.12 21:16:00 -
[5]
Well in US law it holds weight.. Unfortunatly All the Isk and MMO currency sellers are based out of other countrys and therefor US Law doesnt apply or even Icelandic law.
the only thing you can really do is keep the auctions off Sites such as Ebay etc and Try and track down people moving lots of isk to random people etc etc.
______________________
I am the carebear...
who doesnt use the "Correct Dread"
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2006.04.12 21:16:00 -
[6]
Depends what you mean by a legal case. CCP can't sue you because you failed to follow it; on the other hand, you can't sue CCP for terminating your account if you didn't follow it.
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"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Regula Tor
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Posted - 2006.04.12 21:22:00 -
[7]
Is it "Illegal" like you can do jail time? No it's not that kind of illegal so they couldn't just hand it over to the cops for enforcement. Not sure if that is what you ment.
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Zeonog
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Posted - 2006.04.12 21:33:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Regula Tor
Is it "Illegal" like you can do jail time? No it's not that kind of illegal so they couldn't just hand it over to the cops for enforcement. Not sure if that is what you ment.
Yup thats what I wanted to know. Is it truly illegal to break it. Cheers. Was just curious since people keep going on about it 
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seeyouauntie
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Posted - 2006.04.12 22:16:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Zeonog
Originally by: Regula Tor
Is it "Illegal" like you can do jail time? No it's not that kind of illegal so they couldn't just hand it over to the cops for enforcement. Not sure if that is what you ment.
Yup thats what I wanted to know. Is it truly illegal to break it. Cheers. Was just curious since people keep going on about it
You could probably argue that it is truly illegal, but why go through so much hassle? It's easier for CCP to just ban you.
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I <3 mining. |
Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.04.12 22:20:00 -
[10]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Zeonog
I'm curious. I keep reading about the all powerful EULA and how it forbids this and that. Does it have any weighting in actual law.
I mean to say, if it went to a real life legal battle, does the EULA have any worth? Or is it just a fanboy's quoting tool to make them feel important?
It's part of the 'terms of use'. Law, well, you could probably argue breach of contract. Which can often be a complicated affair. However for certain that if you break 'the rules' then CCP is quite within their rights to terminate the contract, (and ban your character)
Not just ban your account. You forgo your right to access to Eve in any form by breaking the Terms of Use. You personally, not the account. If you're found to have registered another account, it gets banned too.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
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Frezik
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Posted - 2006.04.12 22:50:00 -
[11]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Zeonog
I'm curious. I keep reading about the all powerful EULA and how it forbids this and that. Does it have any weighting in actual law.
I mean to say, if it went to a real life legal battle, does the EULA have any worth? Or is it just a fanboy's quoting tool to make them feel important?
It's part of the 'terms of use'. Law, well, you could probably argue breach of contract. Which can often be a complicated affair. However for certain that if you break 'the rules' then CCP is quite within their rights to terminate the contract, (and ban your character)
EULAs aren't really contracts, as a contract requires both parties to have roughly equal power in negotiation. EULAs are licenses, where one party (CCP, in this case) holds most of the power. The difference is often subtle, but important. The licensor can put whatever they want in a license, but it doesn't mean it will ever hold up in court.
For an MMO, EULAs are easier to enforce--just kick the offending player. In non-online games, you'd need to go through the bother of the court system. Very few clauses in the EULA would ever stand up in court. About the only clauses that would are the ones that are already covered by copyright law, anyway.
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"Well in this case, he's being flamed, and rightly so, for whinning about a game mechanic that doesn't actually exist." -Lorth |
D'onryu Shoqui
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Posted - 2006.04.12 23:02:00 -
[12]
Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 12/04/2006 23:03:10
eulas dont hold much weight in court because you pay for the software or game before you see them and you cant get a refund for any games or software that have already been opended.
its like expecting someone to accept a contract they have never even looked at.
that doesnt mean you could take ccp to court for banning you though
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.04.12 23:06:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Nyphur on 12/04/2006 23:06:37
Originally by: Frezik
EULAs aren't really contracts, as a contract requires both parties to have roughly equal power in negotiation. EULAs are licenses, where one party (CCP, in this case) holds most of the power. The difference is often subtle, but important. The licensor can put whatever they want in a license, but it doesn't mean it will ever hold up in court.
It's only really there because players need to be given a feasibly just reason why they have been banned from the game. I recall a player taking SOE to court over a ban because he was banned for something that wasn't at the time against the rules, TOS or EULA. He won and got unbanned because they didn't give him just reason. They could have just unbanned him to help with PR, though. It looks bad when you ban a player without just cause.
In case of confusion over ban reasons, the EULA is a handy tool to disambiguate the situation. It shows that the player agreed not to break a set of rules, on penalty of losing access to the game, and then broke them.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Saladin
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Posted - 2006.04.13 00:34:00 -
[14]
Frezik got it right. Only a few clauses in EULA's hold up in US court. With MMO's its a bit more complex, but a good example is with what happens with high end, expensive corporate software. When software costs US$4,000 and upwards, it usually comes with a seperate license file that allows the software to run. There are EULA's out there that state that if the customer (a corporation) is bought out by another company, then those license files become void and the new company has to buy them all over again. That clause does not hold up court.
All in all, I believe Chinese courts are the ones to watch. They have already ruled on in-game issues such as scamming and it will be interesting to see future cases. If the chinese regard virtual items to hold real value, it will be interesting to see how MMO providers (which are currently pandering to the chinese) react.
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Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2006.04.13 01:11:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Zeonog
I'm curious. I keep reading about the all powerful EULA and how it forbids this and that. Does it have any weighting in actual law.
Yes, you break it, CCP bans your ass, and you can't sue them to let you keep playing.
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Istvaan Shogaatsu's ego, when combined with a veldspar asteroid, would create 500 titans. Too bad he's never mined.
RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran |
Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2006.04.13 01:13:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Naverin
Well in US law it holds weight.. Unfortunatly All the Isk and MMO currency sellers are based out of other countrys and therefor US Law doesnt apply or even Icelandic law.
Actually, if you have a strong enough presance in the US, you are bound by US law regardless of whether you realize it or not.
I believe CCP has to follow certain laws of any country they are marketing to. IIRC, this is why ******(think ww2 germany) is filtered.
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Istvaan Shogaatsu's ego, when combined with a veldspar asteroid, would create 500 titans. Too bad he's never mined.
RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran |
Justus Imperius
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Posted - 2006.04.13 01:16:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Justus Imperius on 13/04/2006 01:16:28
Why am I getting the strong feeling that this dude is breaking the Eula and laughing his ass off at it...
Only feel this way because how he asks if its a fanboi's quoting toy then did the like and said people are 'going on about it'...
>;O dunno maybe I'm in a bad mood but he's ****in me off :D
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Sonos SAGD
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Posted - 2006.04.13 01:17:00 -
[18]
EULA have lots of power
its a common misconception that you buy software, you buy a licence to use the software .
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I refuse to show you my real signature unless you give me isk |
Zekk Pacus
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Posted - 2006.04.13 01:17:00 -
[19]
In extreme cases of continued and systematic EULA violations, it's not unkown for people to be taken to court. I doubt you'd actually do prison time for it* but it's been known for people to have restraining orders against playing certain games. The EULA is in its most basic terms a contract, and since you're handing over money each month you are expected to uphold the terms of that contract, as are CCP. It's international law and very, very complicated and my brain can't quite pick through it all at 2am, but yes, it's legally binding to an extent.
* can just imagine that...'What are you in for?' 'Murder, what about you?' 'I griefed Oveur in his Polaris'.
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Justus Imperius
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Posted - 2006.04.13 01:20:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Zekk Pacus
In extreme cases of continued and systematic EULA violations, it's not unkown for people to be taken to court. I doubt you'd actually do prison time for it* but it's been known for people to have restraining orders against playing certain games. The EULA is in its most basic terms a contract, and since you're handing over money each month you are expected to uphold the terms of that contract, as are CCP. It's international law and very, very complicated and my brain can't quite pick through it all at 2am, but yes, it's legally binding to an extent.
* can just imagine that...'What are you in for?' 'Murder, what about you?' 'I griefed Oveur in his Polaris'.
Murder: "Yea, I murdered his mining drones..."
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Sadayiel
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Posted - 2006.04.13 01:31:00 -
[21]
it's like a friend of mine, he tried EVE and started to consider about buy money, or use macros so i advised him CCP don't ignore such things and he will be banned.
Then i had to argue with him and another guy, that since You are paying for a service, they can't Ban you cause if they sue the company would be right.....
I was like OMG someone podded me and im in a clone vat dreaming...
-------------------Sig-----------------------
S.S.E. currently recruiting new players.
Convo me or leave an eve-mail.
Suicide it's man way to tell God. You can't fire me so I quit. |
Zekk Pacus
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Posted - 2006.04.13 01:33:00 -
[22]
People get away with such things in all MMOs - if you think the market for items and money is bad in EVE you never played UO. It's a fact that people will pay real money for ingame items. Same with SWG at its peak when EVERYONE was grinding for Jedi.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.13 01:36:00 -
[23]
The vast majority of MMO's EULA is untested in court, and most MMO companies REALLY want to keep it that way.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Viktor Fyretracker
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Posted - 2006.04.13 01:42:00 -
[24]
EULAs are pretty much unprooven in a court in general, however they exist more to cover the company's ass. with an MMO the EULA allows them to terminate accounts without warning. with software EULAs make them not liable for damage caused to a machine the software is installed on.
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Rimme Ettakar
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Posted - 2006.04.13 03:11:00 -
[25]
Shrink wrapped agreements *have* been proven in courts - both in the States (see above re SOE) and in the UK, where the software developer was taken to court for not living up to their own EULA.
(I have nothing constructive to contribute)
RE
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Epyik
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Posted - 2006.04.13 03:23:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Epyik on 13/04/2006 03:24:02
I don't follow the law too well these days, but don't you need to be over 18 in the US to enter a legal binding agreement without parental consent or something or at least have them present? Wouldn't do me much good either way, but it sure would let some younger people off the hook à.
On the subject of the EULA, I find it ridiculous that stores such as Best Buy won't allow you to return software and the software can't be used until you agree to their terms which often times have you waive any legal rights you would normally have such as duplicating the media for backup purposes (I never understood why they still use copy protection since games require serials now). So if you don't agree that seems to more or less put you up a creek without a paddle.
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Remedial
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Posted - 2006.04.13 03:34:00 -
[27]
The EULA is typically not the focus of a lawsuit involving video games. More often the issue is copyright infringement, which may be specifically prohibited by the EULA, but the real basis for the suit are all the international treaties and national laws against that infringement. The EULA is just a handy little contract for CCP that lays out for the end user just what he isn't allowed to do with the software, on pain of a ban or a revocation of the license to use that software.
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