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Arthur Aihaken
Perkone
Caldari State
2940
   |
Posted - 2014.02.23 19:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
Lasers and Amarr ships in particular are pigeonholed to EM and thermal damage, so this is a proposal to change just the T2 laser crystals (Conflagration, Scorch, Aurora and Gleam) to EM and Kinetic damage. This puts the lasers on more equal footing with respect to missiles, projectiles and drones.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Damien White
Sonnenlegion
Shadow Cartel
99
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 19:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
Well... how do you create kinetic damage with something that is basicaly an oversized flashlight? Throw it at someone?
97% of girls would die if Justin Bieber were about to jump off a cliff. Post this in your sig if you`re part of the 3% yelling,
"DO A BARREL ROLL!" |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
950
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 19:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Howabout give Amarr ships more launcher hardpoints instead? Even if they don't missile spec, it makes sense to assume they would be well aware of their damage type weakness, and would make some sort of arrangements for it. I don't understand why they hate missile launchers almost as much as Gallente do.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Damien White
Sonnenlegion
Shadow Cartel
100
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 19:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
Its the other way around.
Just look at their ships, Amarr love shiny stuff. I bet if they found a way to make their engines sparkle they would instantly modify every single ship.
97% of girls would die if Justin Bieber were about to jump off a cliff. Post this in your sig if you`re part of the 3% yelling,
"DO A BARREL ROLL!" |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
400
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 19:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Then they would just be pigeonholed into EM/KIN instead of EM/THERM.
Seems pretty pointless. |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone
Caldari State
2940
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 19:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
Damien White wrote:Well... how do you create kinetic damage with something that is basicaly an oversized flashlight? Throw it at someone?
Since when is EVE grounded in reality?
Mike Voidstar wrote:Then they would just be pigeonholed into EM/KIN instead of EM/THERM.
Seems pretty pointless.
Obviously reading comprehension isn't your thing. I said T2 crystals. Standard and Faction crystals would still be EM/Thermal, and since Amarr can switch crystals instantaneously you'd have the option of EM/Thermal or EM/Kinetic (provided you were using T2 guns).
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Ellendras Silver
My second corp
128
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 19:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Damien White wrote:Well... how do you create kinetic damage with something that is basicaly an oversized flashlight? Throw it at someone?
this and i like to add something...
lasers are fine they have good range, can switch crystals to adjust DPS/range ratio without any delay never have to reload.
FIX FORUMS |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers
Fidelas Constans
237
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 19:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
this i have to disagree on. while missiles drones and turrets have the option to switch damage they have other drawbacks that make applying damage difficult as well. projectiles suffer from falloff (as well as T2 only providing certain damage type), missiles are difficult to apply damage to different targets, and drones have a their own set of problems as well.
Each system has its drawbacks. Lasers arent the only ones being pushed into a specific corner. |
Ordo Malus
Shadows Of The Requiem
The Unthinkables
30
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Posted - 2014.02.23 19:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
Not to go too "Star Trek" here, but I think you could at least justify explosive damage with an ammo type. Consider that in Star Trek canon and non-canon, PHASERs are a direct energy weapon that deal a specific type of energy damage. Lasers are out of date, but again, EM/Thermal based on the fact that it is electro energy and creates heat (thermal). You could easily justify some sort of explosive damage based on antimatter particles focused in an energy beam, but I don't see kinetic being possible.
I'm not saying go rip off of star trek weaponry lore, but its certainly plausible to say that in a day and age of these advanced new-eden technologies, we can create another weapon system that works/delivers a laser type discharge and causes an explosive reaction on contact with shield and armor "particles." You could literally just make some bs up here and make it sound sexy and work. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
400
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 19:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
Damien White wrote:Well... how do you create kinetic damage with something that is basicaly an oversized flashlight? Throw it at someone?
In a universe with tractor beams it is probably possible... But why? |
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Damien White
Sonnenlegion
Shadow Cartel
100
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Posted - 2014.02.23 19:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Damien White wrote:Well... how do you create kinetic damage with something that is basicaly an oversized flashlight? Throw it at someone? Since when is EVE grounded in reality?
Touch+¬
97% of girls would die if Justin Bieber were about to jump off a cliff. Post this in your sig if you`re part of the 3% yelling,
"DO A BARREL ROLL!" |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
950
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 19:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
There should be tech 1 Amarr ships with a full missile setup, complete with EM damage bonus. I'd start with the Tormentor, we don't need 3 laser frigates. Heck, why don't we make the Tormentor into the Amarr logi frigate, and switch Inquisitor back to missiles like it used to be?
Next up, either Omen or Maller should be full missiles. I vote Maller, but what do you guys think? I'm thinking Maller because it's more defensive and I think the top offense cruiser should be left to the main weapon type.
Lastly, the Armageddon should have a full rack of bonused launcher hardpoints. I don't think that would be overpowered. It still has to take off a launcher to add a neutralizer, and vice versa.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
950
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 19:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Each system has its drawbacks. Lasers arent the only ones being pushed into a specific corner.
The problem isn't that lasers have a drawback, it's that Amarr don't seem to realize it, and they never make a combat ship that has anything other than lasers. All of their drone boats are partially focused on EWAR and their missile boats are all tech 2.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone
Caldari State
2940
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 19:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Howabout give Amarr ships more launcher hardpoints instead? Even if they don't missile spec, it makes sense to assume they would be well aware of their damage type weakness, and would make some sort of arrangements for it. I don't understand why they hate missile launchers almost as much as Gallente do.
Sure, but that still doesn't address the issue of laser-specific configurations.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Damien White
Sonnenlegion
Shadow Cartel
100
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 19:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Sure, but that still doesn't address the issue of laser-specific configurations.
But they need a weakness, otherwise they where way to powerfull.
97% of girls would die if Justin Bieber were about to jump off a cliff. Post this in your sig if you`re part of the 3% yelling,
"DO A BARREL ROLL!" |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
950
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 20:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Sure, but that still doesn't address the issue of laser-specific configurations.
Sure it does. If being stuck on two damage types is really that bad, people will use the launcher hardpoints they have....if they have them. If they have them and don't use them, then they must be fine with lasers.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
400
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 20:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
Rowells wrote:this i have to disagree on. while missiles drones and turrets have the option to switch damage they have other drawbacks that make applying damage difficult as well. projectiles suffer from falloff (as well as T2 only providing certain damage type), missiles are difficult to apply damage to different targets, and drones have a their own set of problems as well.
Each system has its drawbacks. Lasers arent the only ones being pushed into a specific corner.
You may want to avoid mentioning projectiles to users of other turrets. Other than their reload and a slight bit of tracking and damage compared to blasters they have the best of just about all possible worlds. Damage selection, capless, immense alpha, and decent range (blastes fight in falloff too).
Capless alone makes them the weapon of choice on anything that does not have a weapon bonus of its own, and they pay very little for that privledge.
That said, Lasers have their issues, but they also have significant advantages too. They project their damage like a boss, and only ever run out of the best ammo. Unlike projectiles they pay dearly for the privledge, but do not stack poorly compared to Hybrids. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers
Fidelas Constans
237
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 20:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
I agree theres no T1 missile ships but there are 3 decent drone boats. Not exactly as good as the gallente ones but then that wouldnt make any sense if Amarr had better drone ships than gallente. I think amarr could stand to use a missile cruiser if anything. |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone
Caldari State
2940
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 20:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Damien White wrote:But they need a weakness, otherwise they where way to powerfull.
Is this because we don't want to see any race encroaching on the Minmatar? The weakness is that you're still tied to EM, and in half the T2 crystals the kinetic ratio would still be 18% to 72% EM.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Damien White
Sonnenlegion
Shadow Cartel
100
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 20:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
How about instead of buffing everything else you start thinking about nerfing minmatar?
97% of girls would die if Justin Bieber were about to jump off a cliff. Post this in your sig if you`re part of the 3% yelling,
"DO A BARREL ROLL!" |
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Stephanie Rosefire
One Man Solo Industry
10
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 20:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
I agree that lasers are pigeon holed. however changing the damage type wont change anything. the thing with lasers is that they have the highest optimal/falloff ratio out of all the guns. adding launchers is a terrible idea, because it creates the idea that people shouldnt use lasers, and that lasers are useless. lasers are fine as is because of their amazing kiting ability. they have huge optimal range, and can switch damage types instantly. i think that tracking needs to be buffed. other then that, lasers are fine.
Also, look at hybrids. they are pigeon holed to thermal/kinetic. they are in the same boat as laser boats. the only difference is is that most ships have less kinetic resists then EM resists (for armor atleast) if you look at PVP, most ships have a huge EM/Therm resist spread, because lasers are sooo deadly at range. PVE lasers arent great, but they are feared in PVP. an Apoc can hit stuff at about 250-350km out with decent damage. whats the point of having a blaster boat or even a rail boat if you get picked off before you can even get within range. pulse lasers are also the same. lasers are meant for kiting. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
401
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 20:10:00 -
[22] - Quote
If you want to retune the damage ratios why switch to Kinetic? I really dont see the point.
Go with 3 sets of crystals that split the damage 25%/75% in either direction, Short, Medium, Long range, with medium having the significant cap break.
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Stephanie Rosefire
One Man Solo Industry
10
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 20:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:If you want to retune the damage ratios why switch to Kinetic? I really dont see the point.
Go with 3 sets of crystals that split the damage 25%/75% in either direction, Short, Medium, Long range, with medium having the significant cap break.
the only grievance i have is its tracking. other then that, lasers are awesome, arguably the best guns in the game.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
401
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 20:14:00 -
[24] - Quote
Stephanie Rosefire wrote:I agree that lasers are pigeon holed. however changing the damage type wont change anything. the thing with lasers is that they have the highest optimal/falloff ratio out of all the guns. adding launchers is a terrible idea, because it creates the idea that people shouldnt use lasers, and that lasers are useless. lasers are fine as is because of their amazing kiting ability. they have huge optimal range, and can switch damage types instantly. i think that tracking needs to be buffed. other then that, lasers are fine.
Also, look at hybrids. they are pigeon holed to thermal/kinetic. they are in the same boat as laser boats. the only difference is is that most ships have less kinetic resists then EM resists (for armor atleast) if you look at PVP, most ships have a huge EM/Therm resist spread, because lasers are sooo deadly at range. PVE lasers arent great, but they are feared in PVP. an Apoc can hit stuff at about 250-350km out with decent damage. whats the point of having a blaster boat or even a rail boat if you get picked off before you can even get within range. pulse lasers are also the same. lasers are meant for kiting.
Lasers do have good damage at range, but I am pretty sure not many fights happen at ranges better than 250km. Also, there is no such thing as out of range for rails... If you could target it, I am pretty sure a 425 rail could smack you in the next solar system. Its going to be chipping paint, but you will indeed get scratched. If its mounted on a Rohk you might still be in the optimal. |
Lilliana Stelles
1137
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 20:17:00 -
[25] - Quote
Damien White wrote:Well... how do you create kinetic damage with something that is basicaly an oversized flashlight? Throw it at someone?
Kinetic/explosive lasers are feasible even in the real world.
https://what-if.xkcd.com/13/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_ablation
The energy can create an explosion of plasma on the surface of the target.
Not a forum alt.-á |
Stephanie Rosefire
One Man Solo Industry
10
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 20:18:00 -
[26] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Stephanie Rosefire wrote:I agree that lasers are pigeon holed. however changing the damage type wont change anything. the thing with lasers is that they have the highest optimal/falloff ratio out of all the guns. adding launchers is a terrible idea, because it creates the idea that people shouldnt use lasers, and that lasers are useless. lasers are fine as is because of their amazing kiting ability. they have huge optimal range, and can switch damage types instantly. i think that tracking needs to be buffed. other then that, lasers are fine.
Also, look at hybrids. they are pigeon holed to thermal/kinetic. they are in the same boat as laser boats. the only difference is is that most ships have less kinetic resists then EM resists (for armor atleast) if you look at PVP, most ships have a huge EM/Therm resist spread, because lasers are sooo deadly at range. PVE lasers arent great, but they are feared in PVP. an Apoc can hit stuff at about 250-350km out with decent damage. whats the point of having a blaster boat or even a rail boat if you get picked off before you can even get within range. pulse lasers are also the same. lasers are meant for kiting. Lasers do have good damage at range, but I am pretty sure not many fights happen at ranges better than 250km. Also, there is no such thing as out of range for rails... If you could target it, I am pretty sure a 425 rail could smack you in the next solar system. Its going to be chipping paint, but you will indeed get scratched. If its mounted on a Rohk you might still be in the optimal.
its true, but lasers do more damage at that kind of range then rails. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
160
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 20:28:00 -
[27] - Quote
Damage type isn't the problem with lasers. The problem with lasers is that as soon as the PvP becomes large-scale enough that people have logi on the field and nobody bothers with any kind of tackling other than dictor bubbles, lasers become crap. You can't hope to out-DPS logi so you have to resort to either alphaing the enemy off the field (artillery) or outranging them entirely. (railguns)
Lasers are great in small-scale PvP where you actually tackle your targets, and are probably the strongest weapon system in that environment. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
950
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 20:28:00 -
[28] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:If you want to retune the damage ratios why switch to Kinetic? I really dont see the point.
Go with 3 sets of crystals that split the damage 25%/75% in either direction, Short, Medium, Long range, with medium having the significant cap break.
Howabout 4 groups of 2, letting you choose both between which damage type is higher as well as an alternate capacitor/damage/tracking setup:
-50% range:
1.) 9 EM 3 Therm
2.) 6 EM 5 Therm but less capacitor and a bit better tracking
-25% range:
1.) 7 EM 3 Therm
2.) 4 EM 5 Therm less capacitor and more tracking
+0% range:
1.) 5 EM 3 Therm
2.) 2 EM 5 Therm less capacitor/more tracking
+40% range:
1.) 3 Em 3 Therm
+60% range:
2.) 1 EM 4 Therm
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Stephanie Rosefire
One Man Solo Industry
11
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 20:32:00 -
[29] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Damage type isn't the problem with lasers. The problem with lasers is that as soon as the PvP becomes large-scale enough that people have logi on the field and nobody bothers with any kind of tackling other than dictor bubbles, lasers become crap. You can't hope to out-DPS logi so you have to resort to either alphaing the enemy off the field (artillery) or outranging them entirely. (railguns)
Lasers are great in small-scale PvP where you actually tackle your targets, and are probably the strongest weapon system in that environment.
lasers have longer range then railguns. |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
218
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 20:34:00 -
[30] - Quote
Stephanie Rosefire wrote:Xequecal wrote:Damage type isn't the problem with lasers. The problem with lasers is that as soon as the PvP becomes large-scale enough that people have logi on the field and nobody bothers with any kind of tackling other than dictor bubbles, lasers become crap. You can't hope to out-DPS logi so you have to resort to either alphaing the enemy off the field (artillery) or outranging them entirely. (railguns)
Lasers are great in small-scale PvP where you actually tackle your targets, and are probably the strongest weapon system in that environment. lasers have longer range then railguns.
lolno.
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