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Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
15
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Posted - 2011.11.23 15:05:00 -
[121] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Perhaps you should keep your suggestions to yourself. At least then you'll be sure they're well-received.
I've recently made it clear to Ixiris privately (IC and OOC) that I'm not interested in anything he has to say, not will I be responding or interacting with him in any way in the future. I'll remind him of that again, and wish him many happy days of forum-warfare. Have a nice life.
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Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
281
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Posted - 2011.11.23 15:08:00 -
[122] - Quote
That's what wimps who lose an argument do. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
15
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Posted - 2011.11.23 15:24:00 -
[123] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:That's what wimps who lose an argument do.
((My apologies to the rest of the IGSers as this sort of thing is really silly to be dealing with in a computer game. I tried saying this privately to him but maybe this will be more effective:
Ixiris' player has some real issues between IC and OOC. When he sends me, the person behind Silas, angry evemails saying "YOUR DOING IT WRONG", I think we know who the real loser is. Getting upset enough to write several emails to someone over how someone is playing with their fictional internet spaceship captain, that they aren't doing it in a way you 'approve' of, means its time to take a step back and maybe take a break for your own sake. Now seriously Ixiris, I don't like you or want anything to do with you, and I'm sure its mutual. Please be a mature adult, do your own thing, and don't talk to me anymore ok? Thank you. ))
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Lucius Vindictus
East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate
16
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Posted - 2011.11.23 15:53:00 -
[124] - Quote
((Unfortunately some people have issues separating reality from the game. Maybe you should report this behavior before it gets out of hand...)) |

Astrid Stjerna
Teraa Matar
91
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Posted - 2011.11.23 16:05:00 -
[125] - Quote
Silas Vitalia wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:That's what wimps who lose an argument do. ((My apologies to the rest of the IGSers as this sort of thing is really silly to be dealing with in a computer game. I tried saying this privately to him but maybe this will be more effective: Ixiris' player has some real issues between IC and OOC. When he sends me, the person behind Silas, angry evemails saying "YOUR DOING IT WRONG", I think we know who the real loser is. Getting upset enough to write several emails to someone over how someone is playing with their fictional internet spaceship captain, that they aren't doing it in a way you 'approve' of, means its time to take a step back and maybe take a break for your own sake. Now seriously Ixiris, I don't like you or want anything to do with you, and I'm sure its mutual. Please be a mature adult, do your own thing, and don't talk to me anymore ok? Thank you. ))
((I understand your irritation, and fully agree that it's silly to be dealing with it in this manner.
However...
I respectfully submit that venting your frustration in a personal attack ('I think we know who the real loser is') says very little for your own maturity in this situation.
As has been stated elsewhere: it's much more effective (and certainly better manners) to report this incident to the forum mods, instead of 'calling someone out' in so public a manner.)) |

Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
15
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Posted - 2011.11.23 16:18:00 -
[126] - Quote
Astrid Stjerna wrote:Silas Vitalia wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:That's what wimps who lose an argument do. ((My apologies to the rest of the IGSers as this sort of thing is really silly to be dealing with in a computer game. I tried saying this privately to him but maybe this will be more effective: Ixiris' player has some real issues between IC and OOC. When he sends me, the person behind Silas, angry evemails saying "YOUR DOING IT WRONG", I think we know who the real loser is. Getting upset enough to write several emails to someone over how someone is playing with their fictional internet spaceship captain, that they aren't doing it in a way you 'approve' of, means its time to take a step back and maybe take a break for your own sake. Now seriously Ixiris, I don't like you or want anything to do with you, and I'm sure its mutual. Please be a mature adult, do your own thing, and don't talk to me anymore ok? Thank you. )) ((I understand your irritation, and fully agree that it's silly to be dealing with it in this manner. However...I respectfully submit that venting your frustration in a personal attack ('I think we know who the real loser is') says very little for your own maturity in this situation. As has been stated elsewhere: it's much more effective (and certainly better manners) to report this incident to the forum mods, instead of 'calling someone out' in so public a manner.))
((
I did allow a little frustration in with that comment, you are of course correct Stjema. I'm reluctant to involve any GM's because I think we are all our own best police, the community. I'm hoping this will be it, though. And I've tried privately, as I mentioned. Again I apologize to anyone spending time reading through this minutia I just needed to clarify to others what was going on. I've said my piece and I'm really happy to have this drop and I'd be ok if that's that. Back to IC banter then!
)) |

Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
281
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Posted - 2011.11.23 16:46:00 -
[127] - Quote
(( Wow, so not only did you utterly derail an entirely IC thread to work out whatever petty OOC issues you have with me, you managed to do it in a way that makes you look even less mature than I do. Perhaps it's not me who needs to take a break. )) Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Uraniae Fehrnah
Mercury Nation House of Mercury
7
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Posted - 2011.11.23 17:57:00 -
[128] - Quote
((Totally derailed? I think not! *Kicks the thread back onto it's tracks.*))
The vast majority of Amarrians feel not a shred of remorse or shame over the Starkmanir, or the Matari in general? Is that supposed to be a "logical argument" or a provable and verifiable fact? I know I certainly don't recall ever receiving a survey or having to speak with some civil servant taking note of the opinions. I'm also willing to bet you haven't met the vast majority of Amarrians, so please do not try to speak about their emotional state regarding, well, anything.
Of course I suppose it must be obvious to you that if we aren't out in the streets and plazas picketing and protesting while waving signs around, that Amarrians do not have any disagreements with the processes of their governance. Because I know the one thing I've noticed from the militant libertarian Gallenteans that I've met, is that if people aren't staging massive organized protests then their methods of showing displeasure are entirely wrong.
As for my supposed naivety and delicate sensibilities... I hardly think it is unfair or improper to try and caution people to avoid blatantly racist and entirely inaccurate statements such as: "All Amarrians are sheep following an imaginary shepard." Or, "All Gallenteans wear clothing better suited to covering left over dishes of food than to actually consider it a garment." Now I'm sure some people might view a single cautionary suggestion to try and remain accurate and polite as some sort of sign of weakness and frailty, and there is really nothing I can do to change that perception. However, I believe my earlier point still stands. That is, resorting to insults and generalizations undermine any serious discussion more than they support it. That said, I do have to admit you are right about one thing. I do indeed have a low opinion of a great many of the Amarrian Holders and Capsuleers that I've met.
Again, I do not think it is unreasonable to ask someone to be specific in their arguments. Given that in the whole of this thread you haven't made one actually accurate absolutist statement about Amarrians, I find it perfectly acceptable to speak up and challenge the false generalizations. Is it too difficult to specify things like "of the Amarrians I've met" or "the Loyalist Amarrian capsuleers" or is it simply more convenient for propaganda purposes to paint an entire people with the same brush so that when the times comes, the lauded free-thinking and democratic-minded people of the Federation can blindly rally against the latest enemy churned out by the Federal propaganda machine? Regardless, please either be specific, as anyone in a relatively decent discussion would be, or simply admit to being a racist.
Now as for the idea of the various ways that people have proven God does not exist. Show me this scientifically credible proof, please. All I keep seeing are the "logical arguments" being held up as proof that no God can exist, and while a logical train of thought is indeed valuable, it is hardly acceptable as the sole method of saying something can or cannot exist scientifically. Further, simply because something is logical doesn't mean it is scientifically accurate. Anyone who has studied physics on the quantum level can point out examples of particles that, logically, should not act the way they do. |

Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
281
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 18:31:00 -
[129] - Quote
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:The vast majority of Amarrians feel not a shred of remorse or shame over the Starkmanir, or the Matari in general? Is that supposed to be a "logical argument" or a provable and verifiable fact? I know I certainly don't recall ever receiving a survey or having to speak with some civil servant taking note of the opinions.
Alright then, I'll rephrase that. The vast majority of the Amarrians who matter don't seem to feel a shred of remorse or pity for the many, many crimes the Empire has committed. That might seem like moving the goalposts, but let's be honest, shall we? Commoners count for essentially nothing in the grand scheme of Amarrian politics - in terms of your political system, they might as well be slightly richer slaves. The only commoners who ever do anything of note are the ones who rise above the tyranny of the system in the only way they can - cleverly amassing wealth. Even then, they are permitted no political power whatsoever. The only time in recent history the commoners did anything of note was convincing a Speaker of Truth to repeatedly and systematically eviscerate a man without anaesthesia.
Even the Holders don't really have anything more than local power.
The only real political powers in the Amarr Empire are the various governmental institutions, the Great Houses and the Emperor Family.
And I've never seen any suggestion of anything like reparations, a memorial or even so much as an apology or admission of error for the invasion and subjugation of the Old Minmatar Empire.
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:I'm also willing to bet you haven't met the vast majority of Amarrians
Well, your cultural stagnation has led most of you to become somewhat alike.
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:"All Amarrians are sheep following an imaginary shepard."
Oh, no, no no no. No no no no no no no. I don't believe that all Amarrians are sheep following an imaginary shepard.
Just, you know, most of you.
Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
404
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 18:58:00 -
[130] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Alright then, I'll rephrase that. The vast majority of the Amarrians who matter don't seem to feel a shred of remorse or pity for the many, many crimes the Empire has committed.
Pretty much everything that you object to about the Empire are not crimes.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |

Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
281
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 19:03:00 -
[131] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Pretty much everything that you object to about the Empire are not crimes.
Yes they are. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
404
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Posted - 2011.11.23 19:16:00 -
[132] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:Pretty much everything that you object to about the Empire are not crimes. Yes they are.
According to your laws, maybe.
According to any laws that count, no. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |

Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
281
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Posted - 2011.11.23 19:23:00 -
[133] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:According to your laws, maybe.
According to any laws that count, no.
You violated the sovreign laws of the original Minmatar Empire when you invaded their space and enslaved their people. You continued to do so through the many centuries of occupation. The genocide of the Starkmanir took place in Minmatar territory and thus was a criminal act as well - territory which you continue to illegally occupy to this day (although currently it is rightfully under de-facto Republic control). They are also all crimes under the Yulai Convention, whch you signed.
Your continuing slave raids into Gallente, Minmatar and Caldari space are also violations of the Yulai Convention, as are your continuing human rights abuses. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Astrid Stjerna
Teraa Matar
92
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 19:34:00 -
[134] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:According to your laws, maybe.
According to any laws that count, no. You violated the sovreign laws of the original Minmatar Empire when you invaded their space and enslaved their people. You continued to do so through the many centuries of occupation. The genocide of the Starkmanir took place in Minmatar territory and thus was a criminal act as well - territory which you continue to illegally occupy to this day (although currently it is rightfully under de-facto Republic control). They are also all crimes under the Yulai Convention, whch you signed. Your continuing slave raids into Gallente, Minmatar and Caldari space are also violations of the Yulai Convention, as are your continuing human rights abuses.
I'm waiting to see Rodj's response to this before I post my own... |

Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
281
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 19:37:00 -
[135] - Quote
Astrid Stjerna wrote:I'm waiting to see Rodj's response to this before I post my own...
No doubt it will involve some amusing double standard which he hasn't really thought through.
Our dear Rodj isn't very bright, you see. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Lyn Farel
Extropian Technologies
50
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Posted - 2011.11.23 19:50:00 -
[136] - Quote
Aidonis must be spinning in his grave. |

Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
281
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 20:06:00 -
[137] - Quote
Yeah, I'd be pretty pissed too, if the award created in my name went to... well, pretty much anyone in the Amarr Empire, really. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Animated Corporate Logos |

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
405
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 20:40:00 -
[138] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:According to your laws, maybe.
According to any laws that count, no. You violated the sovreign laws of the original Minmatar Empire when you invaded their space and enslaved their people. You continued to do so through the many centuries of occupation. The genocide of the Starkmanir took place in Minmatar territory and thus was a criminal act as well - territory which you continue to illegally occupy to this day (although currently it is rightfully under de-facto Republic control). They are also all crimes under the Yulai Convention, whch you signed.
The Yulai convention was signed after those events.
Quote: Your continuing slave raids into Gallente, Minmatar and Caldari space are also violations of the Yulai Convention, as are your continuing human rights abuses.
Have the Minmatar, Gallente or Caldari governments lodged official complaints with the administration in Yulai? Because until they do (and until the Empire is found to be in breach of the convention) your claim is meaningless.
Of course, the reason the Gallente and Minmatar governments haven't complained could be because they know that the Empire has done nothing wrong.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |

Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
282
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 20:44:00 -
[139] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:The Yulai convention was signed after those events.
Its laws still apply, and your actions were still violations of them.
Rodj Blake wrote:Have the Minmatar, Gallente or Caldari governments lodged official complaints with the administration in Yulai? Because until they do (and until the Empire is found to be in breach of the convention) your claim is meaningless.
Of course, the reason the Gallente and Minmatar governments haven't complained could be because they know that the Empire has done nothing wrong.
Except none of that is true, complaints have been filed and you are in fact violating the law.
I also notice you completely ignored my commentary about the laws of the Minmatar Empire and Republic that you flagrantly violated. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Astrid Stjerna
Teraa Matar
93
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 21:14:00 -
[140] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote: The Yulai convention was signed after those events.
I was waiting for you to say something like that.
It is a documented fact that the following actions have either been condoned or directly perpetrated by the Amarrian Empire.
1) Unprovoked invasion of sovreign space under the jurisdiction of a foreign power. 2) Adbuction of Minmatar citizens and blatant disregard for the rights thereof. 3) Genocide, in specific reference to the Starkmanir tribe, and illegal occupation of territory belonging to same. 4) Violation of the Yulai Convention, to which the Empire is a signee, in the form of human-rights abuses as outlined below. 5) Violation of Republic law in conducting the above-noted unprovoked invasion and taking aggressive action against citizens of the Republic. 6) Mistreatment of captives, in violation of the above Convention, including but not limited to:
Regardless of when it was signed, the Empire signed the Yulai Convention, and it can't simply back out and say 'We didn't mean it'. |

Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
74
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 21:25:00 -
[141] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:The Yulai convention was signed after those events. Its laws still apply, and your actions were still violations of them.
Woah, hang on. Don't take this as me defending the Amarrian here or anything, but he's entirely right. You're talking about acts which, while I agree they were utterly reprehensible, nevertheless WERE carried out prior to the establishment of an interstellar common law at Yulai.
The actions themselves were immoral by the standards of anybody who's not an Amarrian, I agree, but they were not in fact violations of the Yulai Treaty because the Yulai Treaty didn't exist then. They would be violations if performed today.
Laws do not apply retroactively. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
282
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 21:39:00 -
[142] - Quote
Actually, quite often, they do apply retroactively, and as Astrid has pointed out, the Amarrians signed that treaty. They can't unsign it. Either they signed it in good faith and are accountable for their past and continuing actions against the Federation, the Republic and the State, or they didn't sign it in good faith and are not entitled to its protections.
And this still doesn't address the fact that everything the Amarrians did was a violation of the sovereignty of the Old Minmatar Empire, and was thus illegal. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
405
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 21:48:00 -
[143] - Quote
So please point me to the court judgements regarding these alleged crimes.
Or don't you people agree with the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" after all? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |

Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
283
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 22:05:00 -
[144] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:So please point me to the court judgements regarding these alleged crimes.
Or don't you people agree with the concepts of due process and "innocent until proven guilty" after all?
I notice you still haven't addressed the fact that the actions your Empire took and continues to take are violations of Minmatar law. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Animated Corporate Logos |

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
405
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 22:07:00 -
[145] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:So please point me to the court judgements regarding these alleged crimes.
Or don't you people agree with the concepts of due process and "innocent until proven guilty" after all? I notice you still haven't addressed the fact that the actions your Empire took and continues to take are violations of Minmatar law.
I refer you to my earlier answer.
Also, please point me to the judicial decisions regarding these alleged violations. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |

Astrid Stjerna
Teraa Matar
94
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Posted - 2011.11.23 22:14:00 -
[146] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote: So please point me to the court judgements regarding these alleged crimes.
Point me to any court that would agree that an unprovoked invasion is at all legal. Show me the law that supports slavery, or assault, or disregard for the laws of your host nation.
When you can do that, you'll have a case to support your alleged 'innocence'. |

Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
283
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 22:21:00 -
[147] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Also, please point me to the judicial decisions regarding these alleged violations.
Point me to the judicial decisions that allow you to call each specific member of the Tribal Liberation Force, Electus Matari or Ushra'Khan "terrorists". Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
176
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 23:45:00 -
[148] - Quote
A few notes on this page of the thread:
Rodj Blake wrote:Have the Minmatar, Gallente or Caldari governments lodged official complaints with the administration in Yulai? Because until they do (and until the Empire is found to be in breach of the convention) your claim is meaningless.
Of course, the reason the Gallente and Minmatar governments haven't complained could be because they know that the Empire has done nothing wrong.
I'm fairly certain the topic must have been brought up once or twice in Yulai. However, politics are politics... and the words spoken in those chambers are often as useful as everybody's ranting here on the IGS.
Andreus Ixiris wrote:I also notice you completely ignored my commentary about the laws of the Minmatar Empire and Republic that you flagrantly violated.
Quote:And this still doesn't address the fact that everything the Amarrians did was a violation of the sovereignty of the Old Minmatar Empire, and was thus illegal.
(and)
I notice you still haven't addressed the fact that the actions your Empire took and continues to take are violations of Minmatar law.
An invasion almost always violates the laws of the invaded sovereign nation. I'd think that's a fairly obvious and useless point to make. The conqueror answers to laws it choose to answer to, not to the laws of those it is conquering. Unless, of course, they fail miserably.
Quote:Actually, quite often, they do apply retroactively...
Does the Yulai Convention apply retroactively? If not, then what you've said there is pointless. If so, could you provide a relevant source?
Rodj Blake wrote: Also, if the Yulai Convention applies retroactively as claimed, then presumably the Federation has a few questions to answer vis a vis the bombardment of Caldari Prime?
Yes. They most certainly do. However, the State has its own actions to answer for as well. |

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
405
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 08:18:00 -
[149] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:Also, please point me to the judicial decisions regarding these alleged violations. Point me to the judicial decisions that allow you to call each specific member of the Tribal Liberation Force, Electus Matari or Ushra'Khan "terrorists".
Terrorist isn't a legal term. Criminal is.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |

Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
284
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 12:25:00 -
[150] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Terrorist isn't a legal term. Criminal is.
So, you concede that none of the Ushra'Khan, the Electus Matari or the Tribal Liberation Force are criminals, and that there is no need for soldiers of the Republic to respect any law of teh Empire or personal right of an Imperial citizen? Good to know, that clears up a lot of questions I have about the operating conditions of my new job. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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