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Jenn Makanen
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 14:47:00 -
[31] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Buzzmong wrote:... Remove the bots. Bots can be detected server side by their patterns. Humans are much too random to follow that level of precision.
There's this little thing called an RNG. All computers have them. While they're not quite random, they're close enough (unless you start getting fancy like power supply manipulation. Security researchers are nuts.) A decent bot program adds random factors.
Bot detection, without something monitoring the client, isn't easy. |

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
340
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 15:10:00 -
[32] - Quote
Darrow Hill wrote:Cryten Jones wrote:Trouble is that there is way too much coming from loot recycling etc to make a change Change reprocessing to require Scrapmetal Processing. Those that already have it (say 0.0 manufacturers) will not be impacted, but the casual recyclers (mission runners, etc.) will either have to commit significant training time to get it, sell loot as is on the market, or just ignore the crap loot drops. I'd rather see that done as a first step before drone goo is removed.
Or make it have a much bigger impact on how much you get back. Maybe you only get back 80% without it trained and for each level in the skill, you get an additional 3% back, up to a maximum of 95% (at a 50% refine station).
Right now, without it trained at all, you can get back 99.5% at a 50% station. |

Cpt Greagor
Liquid Relief
39
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 15:15:00 -
[33] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Short version: Supply down -> demand up -> prices up -> combat up -> prices up -> players unite for combat and supply ->friendship -> more evenly spread of players across systems.
Lol friendship in EVE. |

Jenshae Chiroptera
168
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 15:46:00 -
[34] - Quote
Cpt Greagor wrote:... Lol friendship in EVE.
LOLOLLLLOLLLOLL
  
Yes, with the right corp / alliance people meet in RL and do become friends.
Jenn Makanen wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Buzzmong wrote:... Remove the bots. Bots can be detected server side by their patterns. Humans are much too random to follow that level of precision. There's this little thing called an RNG. All computers have them. While they're not quite random, they're close enough (unless you start getting fancy like power supply manipulation. Security researchers are nuts.) A decent bot program adds random factors. Bot detection, without something monitoring the client, isn't easy.
I have used static sensors to generate encryption.
IceCreamMonster wrote:Make mining interface into a "mini game" ...
I would stop mining if they implemented that. I only mine when I am doing other things on the other screen. Ideas and CSM stuff No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |

March rabbit
Ganse Shadow of xXDEATHXx
36
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 15:51:00 -
[35] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
- Yield drops
- Prices remain the same
- Frustration - some miners do other things.
- Supply drops
- Demand remains the same
- Prices rise
...
- Conflict goes up, more ships are destroyed
- Demand goes up
- Prices rise again
- More corps are pushed into bigger alliances and there is more people doing PVP
won't work. prices up -> less people want to risk by stuff and ships -> less pvp |

Jenshae Chiroptera
168
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 15:54:00 -
[36] - Quote
March rabbit wrote: won't work. prices up -> less people want to risk by stuff and ships -> less pvp
Less PVP, less mining for you because you aren't killing the other miners off. Works in a circle. Ideas and CSM stuff No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |

March rabbit
Ganse Shadow of xXDEATHXx
36
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 16:13:00 -
[37] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:March rabbit wrote: won't work. prices up -> less people want to risk by stuff and ships -> less pvp
Less PVP, less mining for you because you aren't killing the other miners off. Works in a circle. only if miner will do PVP at all...... 
for me it sound as LOL as if elite-PVPer will make T2 ships for his needs  |

IceCreamMonster
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 16:15:00 -
[38] - Quote
"I would stop mining if they implemented that. I only mine when I am doing other things on the other screen."
Apparently you missed my point and Buzzmong's. I'm not suggesting a full interaction "mini game" but that it requires a direct human intervention every 6 minutes or similar time cycle to empty a hulk's cargo... .... the main point is to not have a fixed pixel location on the screen to program the bot macro to. Whatever you want to call it whether it be a "mini game " or redesigned GUI is not important. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1425
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 16:20:00 -
[39] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Less PVP, less mining for you because you aren't killing the other miners off. Works in a circle. No. Less PvP, same mining for you, prices go down, more PvP. That is the circle. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |

Jenshae Chiroptera
168
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 17:55:00 -
[40] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Less PVP, less mining for you because you aren't killing the other miners off. Works in a circle. No. Less PvP, same mining for you, prices go down, more PvP. That is the circle.
Currently
That is the problem, it promotes kills just for "lulz" because ships are so cheap. We should be competing for the resources, not just picking any high sec system and having no worries. Ideas and CSM stuff No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |

Jenshae Chiroptera
168
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 19:18:00 -
[41] - Quote
IceCreamMonster wrote:"I would stop mining if they implemented that. I only mine when I am doing other things on the other screen."
Apparently you missed my point.. and quoting me out of context. I'm not suggesting a full interaction "mini game" but that it requires a direct human intervention every 6 minutes or similar time cycle to empty a hulk's cargo... .... the main point is to not have a fixed pixel location on the screen to program the bot macro to. Whatever you want to call it whether it be a "mini game " or redesigned GUI is not important.
Yeah, I could see that, every two, four or six cycles a mini game to re-calibrate your strip miners or something Ideas and CSM stuff No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |

xanderh
Ascendant Shades' Coven
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 19:45:00 -
[42] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:... might be to reduce the minerals that ore produces and in turn how much ore is in asteroids. [Forum ate my post, so you get the very short version. This could have been multi-post or a page of posts.]
- Yield drops
- Prices remain the same
- Frustration - some miners do other things.
- Supply drops
- Demand remains the same
- Prices rise
- Miners have to go to more belts and systems (vulnerable at gates as will the increase in haulers.)
- Miners try to out mine each other and win systems peacefully.
- Conflict goes up, more ships are destroyed
- Demand goes up
- Prices rise again
- More corps are pushed into bigger alliances and there is more people doing PVP
- PVP / missioners are paid to be near at hand to keep territorial claim of systems
- Bigger alliance start moving into low sec and low class worm holes
- Risks increase, more ships destroyed
- Prices go up.
- There is less and less griefing combat, ships are too expensive to throw away like that.
- More people are pushed to corps for a supply of ships, ore or ISK
- Even larger alliance now start moving into high class worm holes and null sec.
- Blob warfare is reduced, ships are now too expensive to throw away to protect small assets or low yield systems.
- More strategic game play, information gathering and so forth goes on. Using ISK to defeat opponents without throwing away expensive ships increases.
- Players are more spread out, more options are open to them and they are more in demand
- They feel more closely connected to each other and encourage more players to join this tough but rewarding universe.
Short version: Supply down -> demand up -> prices up -> combat up -> prices up -> players unite for combat and supply -> friendship -> more evenly spread of players across systems.
1. okay 2. Nope. supply drops, as there is less minerals being refined from ores. This means we will need a new list from this point. 3. prices of minerals increase, as the demand is the same, while the supply drops. 4. prices of ALL modules and ships increase, as mineral prices increase. 5. The amount of people PVP'ing drops, as ships and modules will be more pricey, and less people will be able to afford to PVP. This could lead to people quitting the game, as the PVP is the only thing keeping some people in the game (check around the forum), which hurts CCP's bottom line. 6. This leads to less conflict, and less ships blowing up. 7. less ships destroyed means lower demand for ships and modules 8. lower demand means lower prices for modules and ships, leading to the same with minerals. 9. lower prices on minerals will lead to one of two things: 9a. people mining more, to be able to sustain themselves, further dropping mineral prices. 9b. more PVP, increasing the amount of ships destroyed, increasing the prices.
9a may continue for a while, but eventually 9b will happen (unless all the PVP'ers have quit by then, this kills the game completely. Whole other discussion, I won't go into detail on this). All I see this doing, is hurting the mining side of EVE, and possibly the entirety of EVE. Sure, short term, it's sort of helpful for the people able to mine a lot, but long term, nothing good will happen. The EVE market needs low prices on ships and modules, because this makes PVP "cheap", and EVE is driven by PVP'ers blowing each other up.
By the way, what experience do you have on this subject? Personally, I'm currently studying this subject, so thanks for the practise in talking about the subject. But please, tell me that you're more experienced than me on this matter, so I can go in depth with what you've said, and study it closely to look for tips on the matter. But the 2. point in your post was plain wrong. If you make one activity yield less, it wont yield the same immediately after the update, thinking this is just ignorant. |

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
266
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 19:48:00 -
[43] - Quote
Vicous Cycles are fun!
Makes me feel less like a fox and more of a hamster.
|

Jenshae Chiroptera
168
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 19:57:00 -
[44] - Quote
xanderh wrote: 2. Nope. supply drops, as there is less minerals being refined from ores. This means we will need a new list from this point. .
Market is full of sell orders, that is ore waiting. There will be a period in which the people wake up. Then there might be a panic buying run, driving he price up dramatically, then a selling run to cash in on the new high prices and then the rest continues.
Sorry to disappoint you. I have no qualifications and no experience. I buy company shares from time to time but I usually just let them sit. I started with one when I was 12. One week's pocket money turned into a month's salary 10 years later. "Economist," "Architect," "Editor," was my suggested top three professions, when I did my psychometric testing before starting tertiary. However, I hate money, I don't want to help make peoples' lives better with housing and offices, "More tar and concrete? No thanks," and the media .. ugh ... don't get me started on them. So I ended up doing programming with an aim to go into game design. Fulfilment would be in the art, writing and logical challenges. That probably will never happen. Any-whoo, there in ends another sleep deprived ramble that will doubtlessly turn into 10 pages of attempts at trolling and snot flicking contests. 
Nova Fox wrote:Vicous Cycles are fun!
Makes me feel less like a fox and more of a hamster.
You are a hamster with a long tail and pointy ears. Look at that baby face!  Ideas and CSM stuff No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |

xanderh
Ascendant Shades' Coven
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 20:16:00 -
[45] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:xanderh wrote: 2. Nope. supply drops, as there is less minerals being refined from ores. This means we will need a new list from this point. .
Market is full of sell orders, that is ore waiting. There will be a period in which the people wake up. Then there might be a panic buying run, driving he price up dramatically, then a selling run to cash in on the new high prices and then the rest continues. Sorry to disappoint you. I have no qualifications and no experience. I buy company shares from time to time but I usually just let them sit. I started with one when I was 12. One week's pocket money turned into a month's salary 10 years later. "Economist," "Architect," "Editor," was my suggested top three professions, when I did my psychometric testing before starting tertiary. However, I hate money, I don't want to help make peoples' lives better with housing and offices, "More tar and concrete? No thanks," and the media .. ugh ... don't get me started on them. So I ended up doing programming with an aim to go into game design. Fulfilment would be in the art, writing and logical challenges. That probably will never happen. Any-whoo, there in ends another sleep deprived ramble that will doubtlessly turn into 10 pages of attempts at trolling and snot flicking contests. 
Oh, your points are really short term. From what I've seen on these forums, the buying spree would happen before the patch, which means it would be point 0, not point 2. What I mean is, that the demand will go up enormously, while the supply drops, which means that the supply would be lower than the demand, giving the same effect. So, the list would go like this:
1. change is announced, due to come in (example) two weeks. 2. approximately 1 week goes by with mild trolling and speculation on whether CCP is trolling or serious. 3. last week before patch, everyone buys the **** out of minerals, and it is mining heaven. Prices inflate quickly, and miners can quickly make a lot of ISK, but possibly even more by stockpiling, possibly driving prices up even more. 4. yield drops. 5. prices go up slightly, due to people starting to unload minerals unto the market, and industrialists use their newly aquired stockpiles. Then the rest of my list should follow, according to what I'm learning at the moment. I'll let you guys know if I learn something else, and you happen to be right, but what I just listed is what I estimate would happen based on my current knowledge of market economics and the EVE online community.
Also, I'm surprised by the low amounts of trolling in this thread so far. What's happening with the EVE community? Is it CCP doing too much good stuff, taking away all the stuff you caomplain about making you happy, so you don't want to troll anymore? |

Evei Shard
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 20:35:00 -
[46] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Want to buy some A grade A ore? I have some B and C but the A is coming out of my ears 
So what you are saying, essentially, is that you want your suggestions imposed on high-sec miners while you sit pretty in null/wh-space mining Arkanor.
Try high-sec and keeping up with the post downtime rush. There are times when I go through 3 or 4 systems and find scraps in most belts. Fortunately I currently need the products from Scordite and Pyroxeres. Among the 5 systems I usually travel, I never see Kernite anymore. Veldspar is an occasional find. And when you are trying to stack up 100mil units to build something, it takes a bit to get it all from Scordite. Yes, I've taken to moving to other systems, but it's not like I can just jump 5 systems and find some gold mine. There's a reason I'm trying to build a Providence.
Your proposal does nothing to make it more difficult to bot, and would simply result in the game being less attractive for real players. Not to mention that new players would have to jump multiple systems just to finish the mining tutorials, as the bots already tear up the newbie systems as it is, due to the sec status.
tl;dr: Not supported.
|

Jenshae Chiroptera
169
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 21:13:00 -
[47] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:only if miner will do PVP at all......  for me it sound as LOL as if elite-PVPer will make T2 ships for his needs  You would be suprised. Miners make ISK to do some crazy stuff http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndWUlntJ58U
Evei Shard wrote:So what you are saying, essentially, is that ...
Title wrote:.. for all ore mining Actually, I think the more elegant solution would be to just take out asteroid belts. Keep the rates and all that the same, just crowd the miners together and get them to explore more worm holes to find the gravimetric sites
xanderh wrote: Oh, your points are really short term. ...
This is the great thing about an open forum, we can test and work through ideas before going in and blow things to pieces.
The long term goal, is just to have people competing over the mining sites. Raise the average cost of ships to were people at least pause to think about committing to a fight. "Is this worth it in ISK?" Ideas and CSM stuff No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |

Captain Megadeath
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 21:21:00 -
[48] - Quote
IceCreamMonster wrote: Make mining interface into a "mini game" ... [/u]
Seriously, stop it with the mini-game muck. Worst idea ever that will impeed multi-boxers. You know, those who give CCP more money than you.
Quote:'m not suggesting a full interaction "mini game" but that it requires a direct human intervention every 6 minutes or similar time cycle to empty a hulk's cargo...
6 minutes, so your a bot set up for max cargo and not max yeild. also, example; after the six minutes the minigame pops up and while your doing it the ganker/enemy fleet pops in for a chat....... goodbye. |

Captain Megadeath
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 21:27:00 -
[49] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Tippia wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Less PVP, less mining for you because you aren't killing the other miners off. Works in a circle. No. Less PvP, same mining for you, prices go down, more PvP. That is the circle. CurrentlyThat is the problem, it promotes kills just for "lulz" because ships are so cheap. We should be competing for the resources, not just picking any high sec system and having no worries.
But your mining ABC in null, what are you worrying about highsec about..... ah, your fallacy that EvE is too bountiful. 
|

Jenshae Chiroptera
169
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 21:32:00 -
[50] - Quote
Captain Megadeath wrote:But your mining ABC in null, what are you worrying about highsec about..... ah, your fallacy that EvE is too bountiful.  You think I don't mine in high sec? Hemorphite is one of the best ores, better than Pyro on the market, so I scan down grav sites with it in then I watch for probes because I am all paranoid like that now  Ideas and CSM stuff No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |

Evei Shard
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 21:43:00 -
[51] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Hemorphite is one of the best ores, better than Pyro on the market, so I scan down grav sites with it in then I watch for probes because I am all paranoid like that now 
Now *that* I will agree with you on. High sec grav sites are more common than people think. Given, a lot of them are Omber, but the low-sec ores can be found as high up as 0.8.
Was that you I beat to the pinpoint last night? :P
Never thought that probe scanning would become a PvP thing, but it did. Profit favors the prepared |

Jenshae Chiroptera
169
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 21:46:00 -
[52] - Quote
Evei Shard wrote:...Was that you I beat to the pinpoint last night? :P
Never thought that probe scanning would become a PvP thing, but it did.
Maaaybe <.< o.o >.> Ideas and CSM stuff No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |

Vas Vadum
LankTech Multitaskers.
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 13:12:00 -
[53] - Quote
I wish there was a dislike button.
If you haven't already noticed, we are having problems mining in high sec as is. Prices of certain ores have actually already gone up even though belts are plentiful. The thing to actually do to effect mining is to invent a script to kill macro abilities. Once macro miners are all gone then people will actually have to put forth effort in the long and boring task of mining and will likely just quit because of it. I should know, I'm sick of mining so I'm switching my goal around.
Basically, this idea makes it easier for suicide gankers to completely destroy the entire game industry. This would likely end EVE Online all together if it were implemented. As it seems, some players are working very hard to end EVE Online for good, this would simply make it easier. This is to big of a change.
One more thing that actually can be done though is banning any ship with more than 1 strip miner from entering any asteroid belt in 0.9 and 1.0 space and POSSIBLY banning ships with 3 strip miners from 0.8 belts. To lazy to look up the names of all the ships that fit both profiles so eh. This won't really solve much other than getting the new players some more working space rather than beginner miners finding out that lazy people wanting super safe stuff strip mined their entire starter systems. |

Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
491
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 13:18:00 -
[54] - Quote
The best thing for ore mining or any other mining is to find a new dynamic a new way of mining.
Although I didn't like the writing the ways of mining proposed in the book Saga of Seven suns interested my greatly.
- huge sails drifting through nebula gathering minerals
- scorching hot planets have bases who refine minerals that are melted by the sun and solar winds
- large barges skim the atmosphere of gas planets for gasses
- Comets are chased redirected and then refined completely for all their minerals/gas/water
- rocks are blased with lasers and then refined (oh wait we have that allready) - [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |

Baneken
Hyvat Pahat ja Eric The Polaris Syndicate
72
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 13:48:00 -
[55] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Gealbhan wrote:... he learned to live again. Where did you get that? Perfect for this thread. Thank you.
Prologue from Mad Max 2: Road Warrior |

Skydell
Space Mermaids
109
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 14:00:00 -
[56] - Quote
Minerals should have been a part of the repair process. My hull is at 40% and I just repair it with magic and ISK.
We should require mineral packs to initiate repairs. I just don't know if making PvP more expensive is the answer we are looking for in the grander scheme of things. |

Dunkler Imperator
N.F.H.P. Eternal Evocations
11
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 14:11:00 -
[57] - Quote
this is a terribly bad idea.
Besides everything already said, miners have been given the **** end of the stick for too long. This would be the straw that broke the camels back.
just stop talking until you think real hard about it. |

Valei Khurelem
181
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 14:28:00 -
[58] - Quote
This would kill mining off instantly and you know it, the amount of minerals we'd get from mining would be even more worthless than now, I personally thing one of the biggest problems is re-processing, people with barely any training in non-combat roles can spend a few hours getting the skill up and then rake in profits like crazy either from salvaging missions or PvPing and getting the wrecks there.
Mining just can't keep up because we don't have enough bonuses for all the skills we are forced to learn and that means the salvagers will always have the upper hand since they have to train less and they get more in return, they also get to blow up ships in the process! Much more interesting than watching a laser being pointed at a rock all day.
"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP." -á - CCP Ytterbium |

sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
124
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 14:43:00 -
[59] - Quote
The only thing that needs changing to mining are.
1 - Removal of drone drops. 2 - Reduce or removal of Mission Mining with guns. 3 - Hulks changed to armor tanking ships that are forced to choose between tank, yield or space. 4 - Enough PG/CPU for a 1600 plate.
|

Ursula LeGuinn
66
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 14:46:00 -
[60] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:[Forum ate my post, so you get the very short version. This could have been multi-post or a page of posts.]
I thought I should let people know: When the forum eats my posts, pressing my browser's Back arrow twice restores the lost text. I see everyone complaining about this, but it hasn't been a problem for me. "The EVE forums are intended to provide a warm, friendly atmosphere for the EVE community."-áGÇö-áEVElopedia |
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