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Jenshae Chiroptera
162
   |
Posted - 2011.11.11 11:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
... might be to reduce the minerals that ore produces and in turn how much ore is in asteroids.
[Forum ate my post, so you get the very short version. This could have been multi-post or a page of posts.]
- Yield drops
- Prices remain the same
- Frustration - some miners do other things.
- Supply drops
- Demand remains the same
- Prices rise
- Miners have to go to more belts and systems (vulnerable at gates as will the increase in haulers.)
- Miners try to out mine each other and win systems peacefully.
- Conflict goes up, more ships are destroyed
- Demand goes up
- Prices rise again
- More corps are pushed into bigger alliances and there is more people doing PVP
- PVP / missioners are paid to be near at hand to keep territorial claim of systems
- Bigger alliance start moving into low sec and low class worm holes
- Risks increase, more ships destroyed
- Prices go up.
- There is less and less griefing combat, ships are too expensive to throw away like that.
- More people are pushed to corps for a supply of ships, ore or ISK
- Even larger alliance now start moving into high class worm holes and null sec.
- Blob warfare is reduced, ships are now too expensive to throw away to protect small assets or low yield systems.
- More strategic game play, information gathering and so forth goes on. Using ISK to defeat opponents without throwing away expensive ships increases.
- Players are more spread out, more options are open to them and they are more in demand
- They feel more closely connected to each other and encourage more players to join this tough but rewarding universe.
Short version:
Supply down -> demand up -> prices up -> combat up -> prices up -> players unite for combat and supply -> friendship -> more evenly spread of players across systems.
Ideas and CSM stuff
No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |
Cryten Jones
Militaris Industries
Cascade Imminent
2
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Posted - 2011.11.11 11:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
What?
-CJ |
Jenshae Chiroptera
162
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 11:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cryten Jones wrote:What?
-CJ
Supply and demand with conflict fuelling the progression.
Ideas and CSM stuff
No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |
Cryten Jones
Militaris Industries
Cascade Imminent
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 11:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
There are lots of wild assumptions in your post, however other than making miners mine for longer to get the same return I can't see it changing anything.
Trouble is that there is way too much coming from loot recycling etc to make a change.
How, what would be good would be if recycling modules created salvage items rather than minerals.... that WOULD make a difference!
-CJ
|
Karn Dulake
Souls Must Be Trampled
The.Alliance
81
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 11:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
You put a lot of work into this and have obviously been thinking about this a bit
Expect trolls and self important players who will try to derail your thoughts until you give up
(you have made a few assumptions but who doesn't) |
Captain Megadeath
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 12:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Those same effects can be achieved by 2 simple steps.
1, banning reported, proven bots.
2 removing drone loot.
Every other idea that floats about the numerous mining threads created daily will never have the same effect as the 2
I have listed and are, quite frankly, bad ideas that will hinder non-afk miners (especially mining groups and multiboxers)
Captcha, re-captcha, mini-games and ore manipulation will never effect the market and mining as a whole as hitting the bots, especially the drone region ratting bots that have the biggest effect on markets, by far. In fact they will hinder mining if not out right destroy it further. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
162
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 12:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
Captain Megadeath wrote:... that will hinder non-afk miners (especially mining groups and multiboxers) ....
Are you a miner? Is there a mining corp in your alliance?
Ideas and CSM stuff
No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |
Captain Megadeath
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 12:12:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Captain Megadeath wrote:... that will hinder non-afk miners (especially mining groups and multiboxers) .... Are you a miner? Is there a mining corp in your alliance?
Yes, I am a miner. I run a small mining and manufacturing corporation composed of hulk miners with orca support. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
162
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 12:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Captain Megadeath wrote:... Yes, I am a miner. I run a small mining and manufacturing corporation composed of hulk miners with orca support.
How many hours and how many Hulks with how many belts? The only time I have felt that a belt was low of ore was when there was 8 Hulks with Orca mining virtually all day with just seven belts.
Asteroids as a resource are just too bountiful, that is why the price of ore is so low.
EVE is too abundant.
Ideas and CSM stuff
No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |
Gealbhan
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Flatline.
63
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 12:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
My life fades
the vision dims.
All that remains are memories.
I remember a time of chaos
ruined dreams this wasted cosmos.
But most of all, I remember a Miner
the man we called Tim.
To understand who he was, you have to go back to another time
when the world was powered by Tritanium
and the backwater systems sprouted great towers of pipe and steel.
Gone now swept away.
For reasons long forgotten, two mighty warrior tribes went to war
and touched off a blaze which engulfed them all.
Without the Tritanium they were nothing. They'd built a house of straw.
The thundering Hulks sputtered and stopped.
Their leaders talked and talked and talked
but nothing could stem the avalanche.
Their world crumbled the Towers exploded.
A whirlwind of looting
a firestorm of fear.
Men began to feed on men.
In the systems it was a laser-line nightmare.
Only those mobile enough to scavenge
brutal enough to pillage would survive.
The gangs took over the belts
ready to wage war for a jet can full of ore.
And in this maelstrom of decay
ordinary men were battered and smashed.
Men like Tim
the Miner Tim.
In the roar of a strip miner, he lost everything
and became a shell of a man
a burnt out, desolate man
a man haunted by the demons of his past.
A man who wandered out into nullsec.
And it was here in this blighted place
that he learned to live again. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
163
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 12:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
Gealbhan wrote:... he learned to live again.
Where did you get that? Perfect for this thread. Thank you.
Ideas and CSM stuff
No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1423
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 12:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
Just one problem:
Steps 8 and 9 (and possibly even 7) won't happen.
GÇöGÇöGÇö
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
33
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 12:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
All though I'm not entirely against your idea, you seem to have completely forgotten (or simply left out) one thing:
40% of all minerals in game come from reprocessed goods (drone compounds, modules etc.). At least they used to, not sure what the current number is.
Something would need to be done in regards to that as well.
Have you noticed how some ships are actually blue? Weird isn't it? |
Jenshae Chiroptera
163
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 12:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Just one problem:
Steps 8 and 9 (and possibly even 7) won't happen.
Then they sit and sit and demand goes up but they keep supplying too little for the demand. So, it is a balancing act, always is
Fille Balle wrote:All though I'm not entirely against your idea, you seem to have completely forgotten (or simply left out) one thing:
40% of all minerals in game come from reprocessed goods (drone compounds, modules etc.). At least they used to, not sure what the current number is.
Something would need to be done in regards to that as well.
True, same logic would apply. All the CCP would be doing is changing the parent value of the objects. They could even slider it in their own applet to push the markets and conflict in either direction.
Ideas and CSM stuff
No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
107
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 12:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Yield drops
Prices remain the same
Thank you for pointing out your lack of understanding of economics before I had to read the rest of your post. Not to mention this will not affect price as much as you think because apparently most of the minerals come from recycled mission loot anyway. "Miners do other things" - yeah, like missions.
Anyway the only people who mine ore are (1) Noobs and (2) industrialists who haven't realized yet it's cheaper +faster to mine ice, sell it and buy the tritanium than to mine veld. Although (2) would change quickly if everyone stops mining trit, the price would go up and it would be profitable to mine trit again.
The industrialists are never going to stop mining because they need the minerals to build. The noobs are never going to stop mining because they don't know any better. Believe me roid mining is not the problem - it's a money loser not a money maker. Even level 4's are more profitable. Ice certainly so. Incursions and anoms definitely.
The problem is that some people just can't stand the fact that it's possible to turn on your lasers and go AFK for 10 minutes. It eats away at you. GET OVER IT. They're making even less money than you in your rifter. The ONLY thing that should be prevented much, much more is botting. But that requires manpower and man hours from CCP. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1423
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 12:55:00 -
[16] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Then they sit and sit and demand goes up but they keep supplying too little for the demand. So, it is a balancing act, always is No, what will happen is that they will mine more (or more people will mine). Supply goes back to normal; price finds a new equilibrium; system goes static again.
GǪand as Ptraci points out, all of that assumes that the miners will be idiots enough not to charge for their time.
GÇöGÇöGÇö
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
33
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 13:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:Thank you for pointing out your lack of understanding of economics before I had to read the rest of your post. Not to mention this will not affect price as much as you think because apparently most of the minerals come from recycled mission loot anyway. "Miners do other things" - yeah, like missions.
Sorry, but you are incorrect. First off, it's not mission loot, and secondly it's not "most of", it's a large percentage. It's from recycled modules/drone compounds in general, and if you factor mineral compression in to it, the percentage is probably a bit smaller.
In fact, more that half of the minerals that come from reprocessing stem from drone compounds. Last time I checked there weren't that many drone missions.
Have you noticed how some ships are actually blue? Weird isn't it? |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
107
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 13:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
Fille Balle wrote:[ Last time I checked there weren't that many drone missions.
Drone MISSIONS. Mission loot. I guess I could have been more specific, and I guess you're allowed to nit pick if I was over-generalizing. I should have just said "loot". You are correct. On the other hand drone missions provide zero bounty isk. Therefore it's a mineral and only a mineral faucet, if you discount the agent reward. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1423
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 13:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
Fille Balle wrote:In fact, more that half of the minerals that come from reprocessing stem from drone compounds. Last time I checked there weren't that many drone missions. Are you kidding? There are tons of them.
GÇöGÇöGÇö
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
GÇö Karath Piki-á |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
233
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 13:10:00 -
[20] - Quote
tl;dr:
1) Arbitrary change
2) Assumption
3) Conjecture
4) ???
5) Profit!
This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Captain Megadeath
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 13:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
Fille Balle wrote:
In fact, more that half of the minerals that come from reprocessing stem from drone compounds. Last time I checked there weren't that many drone missions.
You do know there is an entire drone REGION in 0.0, don't you. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
164
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 13:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:2) industrialists who haven't realized yet it's cheaper +faster to ...
With a Covetor using T1 strip miners and no fleet boosts, I am making 27M per hour. That isn't counting the NPCs. salvaging, sites, PI and such that I am doing.
The ore goes into corp that then manufactures, turning them a profit and all of us more prosperity.
Ideas and CSM stuff
No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |
Captain Megadeath
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 13:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
Karn Dulake wrote:You put a lot of work into this and have obviously been thinking about this a bit
Expect trolls and self important players who will try to derail your thoughts until you give up
(you have made a few assumptions but who doesn't)
As you can see, his whole arguement is based upon assumptions and fall apart under scrutiny.
FACT, The majority of the minerals on the market are reprocessed drone loot.
FACT, These are gained by bots in the drone regions.
Therefore the removal of drone loot + better bot removal = miners heaven.
|
Captain Megadeath
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 13:18:00 -
[24] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Ptraci wrote:2) industrialists who haven't realized yet it's cheaper +faster to ... With a Covetor using T1 strip miners and no fleet boosts, I am making 27M per hour. That isn't counting the NPCs. salvaging, sites, PI and such that I am doing. The ore goes into corp that then manufactures, turning them a profit and all of us more prosperity.
27mill an hour with a single unbonused Covetor. 
What system? What ore?
I call CowPoop....  |
Jenshae Chiroptera
164
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 13:20:00 -
[25] - Quote
Captain Megadeath wrote:... I call CowPoop....
Want to buy some A grade A ore? I have some B and C but the A is coming out of my ears 
Can 1718 x 5000 per unit cost x 3 cans per hour = 25 770 000 that is rough and I don't have my MLU because I replaced my ship and forgot I need a CPU, got a cargo expander. 
Oh and I am mining right now. That is the great thing. I can mine, work or be on the forums all at the same time. Two screens for the win!
Ideas and CSM stuff
No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
167
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 13:57:00 -
[26] - Quote
Now, imagine, enough support to run Rorq as FC, Orca as Wing, Hulk as Squad + MLU II + my own Hulk + T2 Strip miners + T2 drones + infinite systems as we could keep closing them.
Ptraci wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Yield drops
Prices remain the same
Thank you for pointing out your lack of understanding of economics before I had to read the rest of your post. ...
Now back to you. It all depends on time and media. If everyone is told the change is happening, they will panic, speculate, start selling, start buying, et cetera.
However, if the change slips in quietly, the market has ore on it, the miners start realising something has change, the price remains the same until the whole market feels the effect or knows about it.
Buzzmong wrote:The entire OP's post could be fixed via one method:
Remove the bots.
The players would do this when they need easy targets to eliminate from the ore competition.
Ideas and CSM stuff
No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 14:01:00 -
[27] - Quote
The entire OP's post could be fixed via one method:
Remove the bots. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
167
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 14:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:... Remove the bots.
Bots can be detected server side by their patterns. Humans are much too random to follow that level of precision.
Ideas and CSM stuff
No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |
Darrow Hill
Eight Bit Industries
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 14:19:00 -
[29] - Quote
Cryten Jones wrote:Trouble is that there is way too much coming from loot recycling etc to make a change
Change reprocessing to require Scrapmetal Processing.
Those that already have it (say 0.0 manufacturers) will not be impacted, but the casual recyclers (mission runners, etc.) will either have to commit significant training time to get it, sell loot as is on the market, or just ignore the crap loot drops.
I'd rather see that done as a first step before drone goo is removed.
|
IceCreamMonster
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 14:33:00 -
[30] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Buzzmong wrote:... Remove the bots. Bots can be detected server side by their patterns. Humans are much too random to follow that level of precision.
No that easy. Competent bots add a random time delay between actions and also output to local from a list of prepared text.
This was back in 2005, they have certainly evolved more since then. |
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