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MataHarry
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.11.12 06:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
Dear Community,
I would like to bring up (yet again) subject of PLEX FOR REMAP. I know that issue been discussed in great deal of detail before. However I would like to introduce whole new set of arguments. I would like to briefly touch upon CONS and PROS and then proceed to discuss the issue in more detail.
PROS GÇô I would not go into too much details here, I think everyone understand the benefits of having PLEX FOR REMAP in game. 2 greatest PROS here are that 1) It would allow great deal of flexibility for players 2) It would allow CCP to generate additional revenue, which in turn would allow to devote more resources to game development
CONS GÇô The cons are also pretty straightforward. PLEX FOR REMAP would GÇ£diluteGÇ¥ competitive advantage of older players or in other words those players who have so much skill points so that they can afford to train single skill section for a year then remap for another skill section with different attributes (IGÇÖm one of those players BTW). On a more broader picture it would dilute GÇ£the spiritGÇ¥ of game whereby the choices you are making matter and you have to make those choices very carefully.
DISCUSSION GÇô Now, let me try to put it all into perspective. Being one of those players who can GÇ£affordGÇ¥ to train single skill section for a year I can clearly see why would similar players not want this kind novelty. Clearly people who object are mainly those who feel it give them disadvantage. Of all the players IGÇÖve spoken with who have moderate amount of skill points pretty much everyone welcomed the idea of PLEX FOR REMAP. Those players argued that it would give them great deal of flexibility and allow to achieve their goals faster.
I think what is important here is to consider is that overall this change would not only impact a small proportion of people but rather community as a whole and that includes CCP as well. I would argue that common GOOD resulting from this change would outweigh costs incurred by a small proportion of elite players in a form of personal dissatisfaction by a wide margin.
So effectively PROS and CONS outlined above are not quite correct. One cannot give them equal weight. On the PROS side we have a very wide proportion of players with moderate amount of skill points, and CCP who could generate additional revenue. On the CONS side we only have a relatively small proportion of elite players who are trying to lobby their interests. Trying to put forward a FAIR argument I have to mention here as well, that players who defend GÇ£old schoolGÇ¥ eve model would also fall in this category irrespectively of their amount of skill points GÇô but these would still be a minority.
Finally, I want to point out at experience of introducing other changes to game mechanics in the past. The best examples here would be introduction of REMAPs and removal of LEARNING SKILLS. Some people protested fiercely against those changes. I think some of them were protesting rationally protecting their GÇ£skill set advantageGÇ¥, other were protesting protecting GÇ£old schoolGÇ¥ eve and others were protesting GÇ£just becauseGÇ¥. The result was same though. We had potentially very beneficial game mechanics for the majority of people involved in the community, which was objected by a minority.
CONCLUSION: Benefits of having PLEX FOR REMAP in game are far greater than costs, because of the amount of people who would benefit directly and indirectly from this feature is far greater than amount of people who would be put at disadvantage. Please VOTE positively on the issue, so that we can bring it to CCP attention via CSM.
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Solo Player
65
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Posted - 2011.11.12 07:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
A well-written proposal, yours.
Still, no. Remaps added flexibility by making a basic element of the game, your character, an arbitrary thing that could be molded and remolded to suit the player's whim. However, I firmly believe that it serves EVE as a game to have choices with meaningful consequences. Restricting players through such, as for examply through character generation, is good both for a competitive game and a virtual universe. If you wish to change your playstyle and need play along with the "best", whip out a new character or stick with your old one but be prepared to be patient.
Remapping once a year was bad enough. Allowing to do so at will makes choices mean even less. Some will remap for every skill they train in order to "optimize" their "progress". In that perspective, PLEX for remap is also basically another pay4win mechanic. I don't care so much for those.
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Drake Draconis
Shadow Cadre Shadow Confederation
112
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Posted - 2011.11.12 07:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
This has already been brought up...and soundly shot down in a hail of gun fire.
The answer was...still is.... NO. |

Velicitia
Open Designs
86
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Posted - 2011.11.12 16:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
counter-proposal:
Go biomass yourself. |

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
184
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Posted - 2011.11.12 19:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
No. "Just because I seem like an idiot, doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |

mxzf
Shovel Bros
132
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Posted - 2011.11.13 05:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Didn't someone just bring this topic up a few weeks ago?
Oh, yeah, here it is. |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
1097
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Posted - 2011.11.13 12:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Solo Player wrote:A well-written proposal, yours.
Still, no. Remaps added flexibility by making a basic element of the game, your character, an arbitrary thing that could be molded and remolded to suit the player's whim. However, I firmly believe that it serves EVE as a game to have choices with meaningful consequences. Restricting players through such, as for examply through character generation, is good both for a competitive game and a virtual universe. If you wish to change your playstyle and need play along with the "best", whip out a new character or stick with your old one but be prepared to be patient.
Remapping once a year was bad enough. Allowing to do so at will makes choices mean even less. Some will remap for every skill they train in order to "optimize" their "progress". In that perspective, PLEX for remap is also basically another pay4win mechanic. I don't care so much for those.
Basically this. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |

Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
170
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Posted - 2011.11.13 12:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Hell NO |

Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
326
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Posted - 2011.11.13 20:41:00 -
[9] - Quote
1) Uninstall EVE 2) Cancel Subscription 3) Never post again Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER SO I CAN HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD
WIdot Director of Quality Control and Ironically Signing My Title to Posts To Make People ~mad~ |

el alasar
The Scope Gallente Federation
63
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Posted - 2011.11.13 23:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
+1, but have the remapping cost be based on the current amount of skill points:
like 1 PLEX per 10 mil SP. makes CCP and the very few players who would still want to use it happy. eve is about options. everything should be possible but come at a possibly irrational price. your choice, free will. more little ideas that need your support: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=261507#post261507 enjoying the order cancellation confirmation? sometimes CCP listens - there is hope after all :) www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1431503 |

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation RONA Directorate
237
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Posted - 2011.11.14 02:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
This discussion has been done to death.
If you search the old forums. the community voted overwhelmingly to take it out of the game. |

Montevius Williams
Eclipse Industrial Inc
113
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Posted - 2011.11.14 05:17:00 -
[12] - Quote
I think a better idea would be a plex for one additional annual remap (no more than 1 per year). If a year passes and you havent used it, you loose the remap. |

MataHarry
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2011.11.14 12:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
Well , there are various options how that could be done, we could have it restricted to certain number of remaps, cost proportionatelly increased etc.
Certainly every feature has to be balanced, if feature is not balanced then people would try to abuse it - that's normal.
The notion is here is to get consensus, on acceptance of feature.
The problem with that, is that people who mainly browse forums are veterans rather than younger players, who indeed would be interested in that feature. When you just start the game people have little incentive to go to forum, given overwhelming amount of information as it is.
Can I make a suggestion here ? I know this is going to be difficult, however I think we should try. If you are making a post, could you also post how many skill points you have on your main?
Of course people would not say the true value, but some will, when we get sufficiently big sample, we could infer on the pattern. |

Samillian
Trojan Trolls Controlled Chaos
26
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Posted - 2011.11.14 14:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Solo Player wrote:A well-written proposal, yours.
Still, no. Remaps added flexibility by making a basic element of the game, your character, an arbitrary thing that could be molded and remolded to suit the player's whim. However, I firmly believe that it serves EVE as a game to have choices with meaningful consequences. Restricting players through such, as for examply through character generation, is good both for a competitive game and a virtual universe. If you wish to change your playstyle and need play along with the "best", whip out a new character or stick with your old one but be prepared to be patient.
Remapping once a year was bad enough. Allowing to do so at will makes choices mean even less. Some will remap for every skill they train in order to "optimize" their "progress". In that perspective, PLEX for remap is also basically another pay4win mechanic. I don't care so much for those.
This.
Choices should have consequences. |

Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
180
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Posted - 2011.11.14 14:27:00 -
[15] - Quote
Since the benefit of the remaps is honestly negligible in terms of actual time I will go ahead and say it's ok by me. Seriously...I have looked at all the possible reductions in time for everything I still need to train and in the span of a year it is a total of something along the lines of 5 days of time saved compared to what I have now which is pretty much even across the board in terms of stats. 5 days really doesn't mean all that much to me even at 55 mil SP. Frankly the people this change would benefit the most would be the newbies and even then the benefit isn't so much that I think it would be any kind of problem at all. If anything it would just help more people get more SP faster to get into PvP and Nullsec/WH combat faster. THAT I am all for. You want more people in Nullsec for PvP stuff? Give newbies a faster way into Nullsec. Support our boobies!-áLINKY! |

Diosas
Comply Or Die
0
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Posted - 2011.11.14 15:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
I would like to see an opportunity to reallocate your entire skills once at some point. There are some many skills you train at the start because you dont know any different, thats just wasted |

mxzf
Shovel Bros
136
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Posted - 2011.11.14 17:16:00 -
[17] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:Since the benefit of the remaps is honestly negligible in terms of actual time I will go ahead and say it's ok by me. Seriously...I have looked at all the possible reductions in time for everything I still need to train and in the span of a year it is a total of something along the lines of 5 days of time saved compared to what I have now which is pretty much even across the board in terms of stats. 5 days really doesn't mean all that much to me even at 55 mil SP. Frankly the people this change would benefit the most would be the newbies and even then the benefit isn't so much that I think it would be any kind of problem at all. If anything it would just help more people get more SP faster to get into PvP and Nullsec/WH combat faster. THAT I am all for. You want more people in Nullsec for PvP stuff? Give newbies a faster way into Nullsec.
But it wouldn't help the newbies at all really, since they wouldn't have the ISK for PLEXes anyways. The people it would really benefit are the people training up alts, mostly for botting or for sale. |

FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard
314
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Posted - 2011.11.14 23:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
I'd have used this six months ago when I derped and wasted a remap with a mis-click.
I don't see where this would grossly imbalance the game, and it might save some noobs from ragequit-level frustration when they figure out six months into the game what they SHOULD have done, and will have to wait six more month to do.
Don't mind if it's done, don't care if it's not. |

FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard
314
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Posted - 2011.11.14 23:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
Diosas wrote:I would like to see an opportunity to reallocate your entire skills once at some point. There are some many skills you train at the start because you dont know any different, thats just wasted
This. I'd spend a plex or three to buy back a few million SP that I wasted on industrial skills that I never use.
Not the ENTIRE skill point set, but maybe 1 plex per million. |

Julia Connor
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.11.16 23:53:00 -
[20] - Quote
I'd like to see a SP remap for plex. I can live with that but it's obviously gonna drive plex prices into the roof. |

Anita Blonde
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.11.30 13:23:00 -
[21] - Quote
Well, seeing that CCP is runing into financial problems and that technically there should be no harm in doing this, I support this |

Rina Asanari
State War Academy Caldari State
16
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Posted - 2011.12.01 08:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
Posting a bad idea again and again doesn't make it any better, it just shows how bad the idea really is.
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Mulm
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
0
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Posted - 2011.12.01 22:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
How about unlink plex from everything, Aurum/character transfer/etc, and remove them from market. CCP has done nothing but interfere and screw with game time, stop linking it to crap. |

Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
221
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Posted - 2011.12.02 15:48:00 -
[24] - Quote
Typing a lot of words doesn't make this idea any less terrible.
You should feel ashamed for posting this and subjecting us to your foolishness. I suggest you edit this thread and change it to a formal apology to everyone that comes here and who may have read this atrocious idea.
I will be waiting. I expect this done in no more than 24 hours from the time of my posting. |

Amuanet
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.12.19 16:18:00 -
[25] - Quote
Supported |

Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
83
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Posted - 2011.12.19 16:44:00 -
[26] - Quote
Where is the dislike button? [img]http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php?r=*rnd*[/img] Desusigs can be seen on the terribad new forums using bbcode enabling script (scroll down to my post for sig rotation) |

FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard
416
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Posted - 2011.12.19 16:58:00 -
[27] - Quote
To expand on something I posted earlier, since this thread has been necro'd:
I'd love to be able to release some of my skill points to remap for something I'm actually using. A lot of people made mistakes early on and wasted a lot of SP figuring out just what we wanted to do in Eve. For those of us who have only been around 1-3 years, this can represent a rather large percentage of our skill points. For someone with 20-30 million SP, 2 million makes a big difference. Examples.
If I want to train a new turret system to level 4 specialization (for T2 guns):
Small: 390,600 SP Medium: 994,410 SP (1,385,010 total) Large: 1,641,690 SP (3,026,700 total)
With a proper mapping and +4 implants, this will require over 48 days of training.
Training for a new racial battleship is 678,600 SP, taking 11 days.
any given race's Cruiser 5 is 1,054,440 SP, requiring almost 17 days.
This puts a typical player at needing to spend 2-3 months training to be able to fly a new battleship or T3 with T2 weapons. For someone who has been playing for less than two years, that's a lot of waiting. Meanwhile, all the rookie mistakes we made with skills are sitting there being useless.
I've made it this far without being able to do these things and don't care whether it's implemented or not, but I don't consider this game-breaking if it's done. I would certainly take a couple of PLEX out of circulation in order to regain those wasted SP. |

MataHarry
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2011.12.20 17:08:00 -
[28] - Quote
Thank you very much for your responses guys, some constructive, some not very, thank you non-the-less. Negative result is a result too.
What I would like to point out is that there seems to be bias in terms of what kind of people surf the forums. In other words, people who mainly surf the forum are th veterans who DO NOT want this change to happen, whereas most of the people with whom I spoke with and who wanted the change were more or less rookies. And rookies initially rarelly crawl through the forums - hence this group is underrepresented. |

mxzf
Shovel Bros
268
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Posted - 2011.12.20 17:19:00 -
[29] - Quote
MataHarry wrote:whereas most of the people with whom I spoke with and who wanted the change were more or less rookies. And rookies initially rarelly crawl through the forums - hence this group is underrepresented.
The issue in your logic is that you assume the rookies understand the game as well as the older players. Rookies rarely actually understand most of the core philosophies of Eve. They are still expecting Eve to be a cookie cutter MMO like all the other ones they've played.
But Eve is a dark and dangerous place where there are consequences to your actions. Older players usually appreciate that part of the Eve design philosophy and don't want to throw that away simply because some noobs feel like it should be easier. |

MataHarry
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2011.12.20 17:24:00 -
[30] - Quote
mxzf wrote:MataHarry wrote:whereas most of the people with whom I spoke with and who wanted the change were more or less rookies. And rookies initially rarelly crawl through the forums - hence this group is underrepresented. The issue in your logic is that you assume the rookies understand the game as well as the older players. Rookies rarely actually understand most of the core philosophies of Eve. They are still expecting Eve to be a cookie cutter MMO like all the other ones they've played. But Eve is a dark and dangerous place where there are consequences to your actions. Older players usually appreciate that part of the Eve design philosophy and don't want to throw that away simply because some noobs feel like it should be easier.
Well Yes and No, I certainly agree and FULLY support the CORE philosophy of EVE, and I think its beautiful.
However what I'm trying to say here is that people object for wrong reasons. Introducing plex for remap does not necesserally make EVE easier, its still same mechanics at the core. I'm arguing that people object because of "selfisheness" |
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