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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Sadist	Posted - 2006.04.25 15:40:00 - [31] Originally by: FireFoxx80 So Hybrid/Laser users get screwed? Again. --------------- VIP member of the [23] Quote: - Numbers alone do not win a battle - No, but I bet they help.
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.04.25 15:41:00 - [32] Originally by: FireFoxx80 So Hybrid/Laser users get screwed? yes one of the great advantages of missiles and small proj is you can keep shooting even if ur nosed to zero cap, thanks im sure the medium and large mini guns needed this -------------------Sig----------------------- IPO idea: give it a read, feedback wanted, thanks
Forsch	Posted - 2006.04.25 15:51:00 - [33] That's something I agree on with Gronsak. This is yet another blow to the amarr that actually use amarr ships against their racial enemy. Laser dmg is already very bad against minmatar and now nos will lose out on effectivness. Why again should I use amarr ships/weapons against my racial enemy? As it stands, caldari and gallente are alot better but really, it shouldn't be like this. Where's the emperor when you need him? The amarrian fleet needs to think over their weapon systems (and get done with the invention of those damn explosive crystals!). Forsch Defender of the empire
turnschuh	Posted - 2006.04.25 15:57:00 - [34] you dont need ammo though, so youc an have all your cargo full of cap boosters.
Kaleeb	Posted - 2006.04.25 15:58:00 - [35] Originally by: turnschuh you dont need ammo though, so youc an have all your cargo full of cap boosters. thats true not to mention instant reload
Kaleeb	Posted - 2006.04.25 15:58:00 - [36] Explosive crystals are the worst idea....ever.
Vina	Posted - 2006.04.25 16:03:00 - [37] Originally by: FireFoxx80 So Hybrid/Laser users get screwed? No, You have a ship called the "zealot" which gives 2 damage bonuses to guns that with no damage bonuses do more DPS than every other gun with 1 or 2. ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
SIGMA KAPPA	Posted - 2006.04.25 16:06:00 - [38] Why should I need Amarr ships? Maybe because of absolute superiority vs Minmatar in the two most important combat areas, damage and tanking? And on top of that better tracking? Removing energy usage is only one step, as it doesnt benefit long range tempests. Right now their dps is mediocre, and their alpha strike capabilities are far from what they have been before the armour nerf.
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.04.25 16:07:00 - [39] Originally by: Vina Originally by: FireFoxx80 So Hybrid/Laser users get screwed? No, You have a ship called the "zealot" which gives 2 damage bonuses to guns that with no damage bonuses do more DPS than every other gun with 1 or 2. with the ability to fit 4 guns WOOOOOTT look at my 4 whole guns -------------------Sig----------------------- IPO idea: give it a read, feedback wanted, thanks
Zendor	Posted - 2006.04.25 16:11:00 - [40] Originally by: Gronsak Originally by: Vina Originally by: FireFoxx80 So Hybrid/Laser users get screwed? No, You have a ship called the "zealot" which gives 2 damage bonuses to guns that with no damage bonuses do more DPS than every other gun with 1 or 2. with the ability to fit 4 guns WOOOOOTT look at my 4 whole guns That's be the same number of guns as a Rupture or Stabber then?
Necrologic	Posted - 2006.04.25 16:12:00 - [41] Originally by: Gronsak Originally by: Vina Originally by: FireFoxx80 So Hybrid/Laser users get screwed? No, You have a ship called the "zealot" which gives 2 damage bonuses to guns that with no damage bonuses do more DPS than every other gun with 1 or 2. with the ability to fit 4 guns WOOOOOTT look at my 4 whole guns Zealot has as much dps as ships that have to fit 5 or 6 guns without having to use the grid/cpu to fit them. Also 7 lows.
Dampfschlaghammer	Posted - 2006.04.25 16:13:00 - [42] Suggestion to Amarr pilots: just load NaughtyBoys spread sheet, look at Amarrs dps compared to Minmatar, go to eve-tanking, look at Amarr tanking versus Minmatar, sit and relax while Tuxford thinks about ways to also give a boost to Minmatar long range battleships.
Forsch	Posted - 2006.04.25 16:14:00 - [43] Originally by: SIGMA KAPPA Why should I need Amarr ships? Maybe because of absolute superiority vs Minmatar in the two most important combat areas, damage and tanking? And on top of that better tracking? Explain to me how laser damage is superior against minmatar with them having 70% against EM on t1 ships and a crazy amount on t2? It really makes not much sense to use lasers against them. Better tracking? Yes because it is needed. Minmatar are faster and more agile while amarr ships move like bricks. As long as another race's ships are more effective against the racial enemy, there is something wrong in my book. Forsch Defender of the empire
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.04.25 16:14:00 - [44] Originally by: Tuxford *Tuxford advises all to put on flame retardant suit because here comes the flames Haven't really started with artilleries. One thing I have noticed that the 250mm artillery look lot worse compared to 280mm howitzers than 125mm rails look compared to 150mm rails. The tracking is a bit crappy as well but its supposed to be crappy. The real question is, is it too crappy. I also removed all cap need from projectiles OMGOVERPOWEREDYARR!!!11111 we'll see if it sticks. There won't be any flames from me, I just wanted to know where you were up to. However, I assume even though you haven't started, that you are aware of the issues in the OP - without neccessarily acknowledging one way or the other, are you aware that these are actually issues and will they be addressed? Testy's Eve Blog!
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.04.25 16:19:00 - [45] Originally by: Dampfschlaghammer Suggestion to Amarr pilots: just load NaughtyBoys spread sheet, look at Amarrs dps compared to Minmatar, go to eve-tanking, look at Amarr tanking versus Minmatar, sit and relax while Tuxford thinks about ways to also give a boost to Minmatar long range battleships. yes, this game is nothing but DPS and tanking, it has nothing to do with slot layout, tracking, damage types, sig, flight time, burst damage, price, and the best bit is, most of naughty boys spreedsheets are geared around at getting his points across, also note average armor tank = 2/3 energized adaptive nanos, giving armor 80% EM which is a lot more than the otehr resistances! and guess waht amarr main damage type are and also take into account that 75% of ships armor tank, oh u dont want to hear taht just point at some near meaningless graph and bury your head in the sand ppl that dont think for themselfs FTL -------------------Sig----------------------- IPO idea: give it a read, feedback wanted, thanks
SIGMA KAPPA	Posted - 2006.04.25 16:22:00 - [46] With vs Minmatar I didnt refer to Amarr vs Minmatar, but general PvP capabilities of Minmatar vs general PvP capabilities of Amarr. Minnie resistances might be geared against Amarr, but this leaves resistance holes versus other races, as they dont have a higher total resistance. Regarding Nos, I think the situation is fine. We have much less cap than you, so nos is very effective here against tanks, not so good against offensive capabilities though. Which perfectly fits the no-defense lots-of-offense appraoch of Minnies. Also that argument about speed doesnt really make sense, in my opinion? Speed is relative, so Minnies who fly fast have not enough tracking, contrary to their Amarr opponent. Basically it is enough that one of the two sides has the ability to fly fast, it doesnt matter who, to make tracking crucial.
Reatu Krentor	Posted - 2006.04.25 16:23:00 - [47] Originally by: FireFoxx80 So Hybrid/Laser users get screwed? How do you come to that conclusion? - phew! dodged the mods on this sig!
Forsch	Posted - 2006.04.25 16:28:00 - [48] Originally by: SIGMA KAPPA Also that argument about speed doesnt really make sense, in my opinion? Speed is relative, so Minnies who fly fast have not enough tracking, contrary to their Amarr opponent. Basically it is enough that one of the two sides has the ability to fly fast, it doesnt matter who, to make tracking crucial. Theoretically the one being orbited (amarr) should have 0m/s transversal velocity on the overview of the one orbiting (minmatar). That is if the orbiting ship flies a perfect circle. The guns would always face the target and wouldn't need to turn. But we know it's not like this in game, so yea.. Still, it hurts roleplay alot if Amarrians have to resort to other race's ships because it's an advantage over their own ships. Forsch Defender of the empire
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.04.25 16:39:00 - [49] Originally by: Gronsak and the best bit is, most of naughty boys spreedsheets are geared around at getting his points across Busted Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
Nafri	Posted - 2006.04.25 16:41:00 - [50] well the cap usage is a bad idea, besides the whining above. It will be just another excuse that the minmatar guns wont get fixed (the way thy should get fixed imho). Players: "Waha, Minmatars are useless for PvE and 30km fights" Devs: "But you dont use CAP!" For Tuxford: Matari problems are: Autocannons are all the same, there is no real point for using anything except the smallest one. Small and Medium howitzers are impossible to fit on their ships, you always need 1-2 PG modules, on the other side autocannons are too easy to fit! Only 2 types of howitzers, and the smaller ones are completly useless. For 90% of the cases there is no point for them and 10% are cases were people use the Tempest for something every other BS does twice as good. My Suggestion: 425er Autocannons stay the same 650er -> 7 ROF/3.21 damage mod (increased damage) 800er -> 16.89 ROF/7.623 damage mod (make it a alphastrike closeranger!) Now some fitting changes: 650er -> 1800 PG/42 CPU 800er -> 2750 PG/60 CPU (much increased PG and CPU, but for alphastrike <3) The poor 1200er Howitzer, never seen in combat (except for some poor noobs) 15 ROF/4.5 damage mod 2750 PG/50 CPU Please allow us to do some armor tanking when using 1200er, Shield tanks just dont work on tempest Jawas are lousy carebears :(
Hakera	Posted - 2006.04.25 16:42:00 - [51] gah and i was hoping for an increase in clip size, the reload times are the biggest downer on projectiles atm where dps is more beneificial than volley dmg.
Dampfschlaghammer	Posted - 2006.04.25 16:46:00 - [52] Well actually it does. I just dont see the big advantages that offsets having low dps and tanking. Slot layout? Fail to see Minnies advantage here. You are amour tanking and have lots of lows, we cant do anything right as we are the only race to have a strange mix of lows and mediums on most ships. Tracking? You ve got more. Damage Types? First of all, 10 seconds recharge are way too much in short-lived eve pvp - you cant adjust damage types. Also only matters for short range. Nobodoy who flies long range tempest will seriously change Tremor L for more appropriate damage types. Greatly overrated. Sig radius? Clear advantage. So go ahead, take it into account in the spreadsheet. Only very small difference, even if you take locking time differences into account. For long range combat, Naughty Boys spreadsheet contains all the information you need. You can account for the med slots by filling them with sb and tcs, do the same with amarr, and still have worse dps and worse tracking, and some lows as advantage on Amarr side. Damage types dont matter, and Minnies dont have more resistance in general, only versus Amarr. Please tell me what makes the spreadsheet so biased in your eyes? At least for long range, there are no mysterious neglected other factors that play into the equation.
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.04.25 16:51:00 - [53] Originally by: Forsch That's something I agree on with Gronsak. This is yet another blow to the amarr that actually use amarr ships against their racial enemy. Laser dmg is already very bad against minmatar and now nos will lose out on effectivness. Why again should I use amarr ships/weapons against my racial enemy? As it stands, caldari and gallente are alot better but really, it shouldn't be like this. Where's the emperor when you need him? The amarrian fleet needs to think over their weapon systems (and get done with the invention of those damn explosive crystals!). God help that the Minmatar develop technologies that make them more effective against their biggest enemies... In any event, Nos will still give you more cap and will still help you break their tank, it just means that you can't stop them shooting you while you do it (which makes perfect sense - if projectile weapons have propellant built into each round and they're already powered, what are they drawing power from the capacitor for?).
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.04.25 16:55:00 - [54] Originally by: Dampfschlaghammer Edited by: Dampfschlaghammer on 25/04/2006 16:47:08 Quote: yes, this game is nothing but DPS and tanking, Well actually it is. I just dont see the big advantages that offsets having low dps and tanking. look at the vagabond vs deimos [at killing other ships] the deimos has a MUCH higher DPS, yet the vagabond is a lot more effective [ask anyone about that tbh they will tell you its true] there slot layout : speed : acceleration : shield Extenders makes the vagabond a much better ship, now do u understand DPS is not everything? the only place it may be considered very important is fleet battle but there burst damage is also very very important in which case mini ftw -------------------Sig----------------------- IPO idea: give it a read, feedback wanted, thanks
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.04.25 16:57:00 - [55] Please dont turn this into an us-vs-them discussion guys. Theres lots of threads out there already for that. And we've all been through the arguments before. Testy's Eve Blog!
Harum Skarum	Posted - 2006.04.25 17:16:00 - [56] Even if it does not get removed, Projectile cap usage still needs to get fixed. At the moment small guns dont use cap at all, medium T1 and T2 guns do but the medium named variants on the other hand have no energy usage. Large T1 and named use 2 cap, T2 and faction 3 while T1/T2/named/faction Hybrids and Lasers all use the same amount. With Hybrids and Energy turrets the long range guns use the most cap/sec and the smallest close range variant the least, since all Projectile turrets of the same size have the same cap usage its the complete opposite. 720/1400s use nearly no cap at all and d180/d425 ACs the most, lowering AC cap usage would bring them inline with Hybrids and Lasers.
Pesadel0	Posted - 2006.04.25 17:26:00 - [57] Originally by: FireFoxx80 So Hybrid/Laser users get screwed? Yes you do
keepiru	Posted - 2006.04.25 17:31:00 - [58] Edited by: keepiru on 25/04/2006 17:31:07 Can we have a big "we're screwed!" thread where you can all throw poo at each like so many monkeys and leave interesting threads poo-throwing free? If I may be so bold, I feel it would be advantageous to all. ---------------- Official ISD cake & bree reserve thief. Barricades a speciality! Last stands on request.
Soren	Posted - 2006.04.25 17:53:00 - [59] Originally by: Tuxford I also removed all cap need from projectiles OMGOVERPOWEREDYARR!!!11111 we'll see if it sticks. But I trained controlled bursts lvl 5!!! lolz ________________________________________________ Inappropriate signature. --Jorauk pfft.. all pictures were off the CCP website =\ --Soren
Reatu Krentor	Posted - 2006.04.25 18:22:00 - [60] Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 25/04/2006 18:22:28 Originally by: Gronsak yes, this game is nothing but DPS and tanking, it has nothing to do with slot layout, tracking, damage types, sig, flight time, burst damage, price, and the best bit is, most of naughty boys spreedsheets are geared around at getting his points across, also note average armor tank = 2/3 energized adaptive nanos, giving armor 80% EM which is a lot more than the otehr resistances! and guess waht amarr main damage type are and also take into account that 75% of ships armor tank, oh u dont want to hear taht just point at some near meaningless graph and bury your head in the sand ppl that dont think for themselfs FTL amarr ships are (and if they aren't anymore they were, eg. gankgeddon) very popular, logically people would try and tank thermal and em. However take the other tanking type, shield tanking, against most shields amarr lasers just melt through it. Originally by: Forsch Originally by: SIGMA KAPPA ... Theoretically the one being orbited (amarr) should have 0m/s transversal velocity on the overview of the one orbiting (minmatar). That is if the orbiting ship flies a perfect circle. The guns would always face the target and wouldn't need to turn. But we know it's not like this in game, so yea.. You do know that the one orbiting should have 0 transversal since he is the one that is constantly turning to face the centre of the circle? The one in the center has to constantly adjust the turrets or ship to follow the orbiting craft. transversal velocity is the speed at which an object orbits in a circle around a fixed point. Originally by: Forsch Still, it hurts roleplay alot if Amarrians have to resort to other race's ships because it's an advantage over their own ships. You don't have to use other ships, amarr ships are just as effective(and more) as any other race in damage and tanking, only thing amarr ships would lack is mid slots for ewar(and closely followed by gallente) - phew! dodged the mods on this sig!

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