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CivrGrrl19
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Posted - 2006.04.25 21:47:00 -
[1]
I know this is a game that is supposed to be a "there is no best ship" or "no best setup", etc.
However, in ANY set of rules, there will always occur an optimal "class" or setup.
From what I gather, a skilled pilot with X skills will have a harder time beating a raven being flown by a skilled pilot with X skills than beating anyone else.
In fact, I gather that a skilled pilot in a ship other than a raven will still have a pretty tough time against a less skilled pilot in a raven.
Is this really true? How much of this is for real, and how much is just whining? What CAN beat a raven (given similar skills, player skill, and gear quality)?
This is not supposed to be a "plz nerf raven" thread. This is a legit question. Typically, in games, things have counters. It appears as if the Raven does not have a counter. It also appears that the Raven is the counter to just about everything else.
ECM does not need to be discussed, as it is receiving a nerf and is overpowered irrespective of the ship it is being used on.
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CivrGrrl19
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Posted - 2006.04.25 21:49:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Toksin
A gang.
Ruh roh... 
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Toksin
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Posted - 2006.04.25 21:49:00 -
[3]
A gang.
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My views do not reflect the views of my corp, or my own views. |
PirateShampoo
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Posted - 2006.04.25 21:49:00 -
[4]
Nos the little b*****d, he cant tank with no cap.
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Agent2 Holtze
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Posted - 2006.04.25 21:51:00 -
[5]
Skills
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CivrGrrl19
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Posted - 2006.04.25 21:52:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Agent2 Holtze
Skills
Part of my point, though, is that a Raven pilot seems to be able to counter a whole lot of player skills simply by the vact that he/she is piloting a Raven.
Thus my question...
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Toksin
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Posted - 2006.04.25 21:53:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Yarek Balear
But ECM is surely a strong counter measure against the raven ? Surely you can't discount it completely. Additionally - with enough sensor dampeners the Raven won't hit u.
One of the things that people completely fail to take account of here though is the term 'balance'. The argument usually follows that of the OP above, detailing that in a 1v1 scenario the Raven is the best. Well, that may be so... But in a fleet setup, the Raven is usually not welcomed as much as just about any instant damage ship e.g. tempest, geddon, megathron to name but a few... This suggests that there may be balance after all - Raven good in 1v1 scenario or small close range gangs, but complete pap when it comes to large fleets in long range battles...
I've never seen a Raven in long-range battle before.
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My views do not reflect the views of my corp, or my own views. |
Kunming
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Posted - 2006.04.25 21:53:00 -
[8]
Domi
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Yarek Balear
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Posted - 2006.04.25 21:53:00 -
[9]
But ECM is surely a strong counter measure against the raven ? Surely you can't discount it completely. Additionally - with enough sensor dampeners the Raven won't hit u.
One of the things that people completely fail to take account of here though is the term 'balance'. The argument usually follows that of the OP above, detailing that in a 1v1 scenario the Raven is the best. Well, that may be so... But in a fleet setup, the Raven is usually not welcomed as much as just about any instant damage ship e.g. tempest, geddon, megathron to name but a few... This suggests that there may be balance after all - Raven good in 1v1 scenario or small close range gangs, but complete pap when it comes to large fleets in long range battles...
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CivrGrrl19
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Posted - 2006.04.25 21:57:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Yarek Balear
But ECM is surely a strong counter measure against the raven ? Surely you can't discount it completely. Additionally - with enough sensor dampeners the Raven won't hit u.
Since ECMs are getting nerfed, the Domi (which seems to be a pretty famous ECM platform) will also be helpless against the Raven.
Quote:
One of the things that people completely fail to take account of here though is the term 'balance'. The argument usually follows that of the OP above, detailing that in a 1v1 scenario the Raven is the best. Well, that may be so... But in a fleet setup, the Raven is usually not welcomed as much as just about any instant damage ship e.g. tempest, geddon, megathron to name but a few... This suggests that there may be balance after all - Raven good in 1v1 scenario or small close range gangs, but complete pap when it comes to large fleets in long range battles...
Your point is valid, but you must admit that mine is as well. The reason being that most engagements are not large fleet engagements. Most engagements are:
- small skirmishes
- 1v1
- gank squad vs 1
Because this does entail most PVP combat, the Raven becomes the must-have tool for such situations.
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Yarek Balear
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Posted - 2006.04.25 22:01:00 -
[11]
I find it really hard to get 1v1 battleship battles - bourne out by my rather sadly quick demise of my megathron when I stupidly attacked a close range Tempest 
Hear shed-loads of BSs getting dumped in huge fleet battles though, so I'm not sure you have the right balance of encounters.
Your point is generally valid though, I just see the Raven as a little bit specialised and not significantly better than the Domi which is generally considered to be the best for close range, small battles, or the Tempest for instant wtf damage in fleets. If you 'balance' the Raven to be exactly equal in SP terms at close range with a Tempest for example, you'll just end up with every Raven pilot asking for missiles to strike immediately to restore balance...
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keepiru
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Posted - 2006.04.25 22:05:00 -
[12]
But its a very narrow field of engagement. Injector-fed torp-raven is very possibly the king of BS 1-on-1, but its weak against HACs. The cruise raven is more flexible, but it doesent stand up to the domi as a wide-spectrum solo BS... certainly when you remember precision cruise are officially inlined for a nerfing.
As to what can beat it... well, i fly a brutix, when i see a BS thats likely to be setup with an injector or heavy nos, i run like a little girl :)
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Official ISD cake & bree reserve thief.
Barricades a speciality!
Last stands on request. |
CivrGrrl19
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Posted - 2006.04.25 22:15:00 -
[13]
Domi is no longer "all that and a bag of chips" though. ECM will be nerfed, and the Domi will fall.
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keepiru
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Posted - 2006.04.25 22:31:00 -
[14]
Its nice with ECM, but its always been a very strong BS... dont write off the domi quite yet :)
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Official ISD cake & bree reserve thief.
Barricades a speciality!
Last stands on request. |
CivrGrrl19
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Posted - 2006.04.25 22:33:00 -
[15]
Originally by: keepiru
Its nice with ECM, but its always been a very strong BS... dont write off the domi quite yet :)
I hope you are right. 
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.04.25 22:33:00 -
[16]
we're discounting EW?
well, lets discount armor tanking too. now NOTHING beats the raven!
Win a Cerberus!!
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CivrGrrl19
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Posted - 2006.04.25 22:34:00 -
[17]
Originally by: HippoKing
we're discounting EW?
well, lets discount armor tanking too. now NOTHING beats the raven!
Did I saw "EW"?
No.
No I did not.
Read the OP. I said "ECM", and the reason I stated is because ECM is going to change. It will be nerfed. Thus it will no longer be the I-WIN button that it is now.
As far as I know, there are Ravens running around with ECM too, though...
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Andreask14
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Posted - 2006.04.25 22:36:00 -
[18]
The raven surely is a good ship, as is the domi.
Yet, those arent anywhere near unbeatable.
The obvious solution to the domi¦s NOS and the ravens ECM/Missiles, is to keep your distance.
Have a smartbomb vs drones. Have ECCM vs EW, have a good tank vs missiles, to tank up the damage done between salvos.
Also, i have to disagree with the assumption that most PvP is 1v1 or small gangs. During the last months the alliance i am in saw quite a few fleet battles, and if you kill their POSes and Capital Ships it will hurt them way more than any BS lost.
________________________________________________
Just a quick reminder that "Local" and "Instas" will always be what they are. |
Malacore
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Posted - 2006.04.25 22:36:00 -
[19]
A Phoenix Dreadnaught, supported by 2 minmatar recon ships and a Rook.
If they're lucky.
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Nybbas
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Posted - 2006.04.25 22:41:00 -
[20]
the raven is the best solo and small group bs out there bar none. It can run a good tank and has completely variable damage types. It isn't just people whining, the raven is overpowered, and just looking at the ship breakdown of who flies what should make it painfully obvious.
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Kyozoku
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Posted - 2006.04.25 22:42:00 -
[21]
another raven
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Harper04
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Posted - 2006.04.25 22:51:00 -
[22]
Domi can do it without ECM at all...but you have to be creative in your setups. Though, I've found that doing this results in rather poor preformance against gangs compared to ECM setups  . It's all a tradeoff.
Hint: Neutralizers + Nos spaced correctly apart will disable a Raven's tank even using cap charges. T2 drones become a necessity.
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Cipher Khadaffi
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Posted - 2006.04.25 23:03:00 -
[23]
swarms are tha ravens bane so even with an "ecm nerf" nos domi will stil be scary to a raven, also with upcomming changes i would bet a phoon might put up a decnet fight too
anything able to field a nice swarm of drones while, nossing,jamming, or firing on raven will be a good showdown
it stil comes down to actual piloting skill to a point tho not jsu literal skill points, imo as a raven pilot one of its main strengths if not its main strength is its ability to find the hole in your tank
beening able to switch damage types on the fly is extreamly handy but i never go anywhere assuming my ship = i win
i dunno thos are my 2 isk  at least eve doesnt have ships that can wield lightsabers
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sig.. |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2006.04.25 23:10:00 -
[24]
faction ravens are uber
tech II fitted ravens are decent, but seriously, its hard to get them fitted even with maxed out skills. very good ships but theyre hardly invincible.
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FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD |
Beringe
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Posted - 2006.04.25 23:11:00 -
[25]
What's this about an ECM nerf? Link plz.
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"Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Hamatitio
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Posted - 2006.04.25 23:25:00 -
[26]
What beats a raven?
Tempest at sniping/fleet battles.
Megathron at close range pure damage.
Dominix at drone carrying.
Scorpion at ECM capabilities.
Typhoon at speed.
A raven is good 1 v 1's... Deal with it.
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Originally by: Wrangler
...why do you people always have to verbally assault each other over things that doesn't matter anyway?
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CivrGrrl19
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Posted - 2006.04.25 23:56:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Nybbas
the raven is the best solo and small group bs out there bar none. It can run a good tank and has completely variable damage types. It isn't just people whining, the raven is overpowered, and just looking at the ship breakdown of who flies what should make it painfully obvious.
That is pretty much my thought process too. People complain about missiles, and any number of other things. Missiles are fine, so are guns. The issue is that there is a ship that can have great damage and a great tank. No other ship can do that as far as I know.
And indeed, the quantity of Raven pilots out there is a pointer to this.
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Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol
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Posted - 2006.04.26 00:00:00 -
[28]
just warp out if you get in trouble against one, whats he gonna do shake his fist?
Caldari - Tier 3 BS |
Nebuli
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Posted - 2006.04.26 00:11:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Hamatitio
What beats a raven?
Tempest at sniping/fleet battles.
Megathron at close range pure damage.
Dominix at drone carrying.
Scorpion at ECM capabilities.
Typhoon at speed.
A raven is good 1 v 1's... Deal with it.
I know alot of Thron pilots that will disagree with you that a up close mega will beat a torp raven.
Had a corp mate with his fairly new alt set up using tech II Torpedos and basic everyday tank with injecter, and it raped my fully tech II fitted blasterthron, blasterthron wont beat a cap injector/torp raven if the raven has equal skills to the blasterthron pilot.
Dom struggles as well if you discount ECM as raven doesnt need cap to fire so its very close tbh, but I would probably put my money on the raven again tbh.
Having said that, raven does suck at long range engagements, but then you can use the scorp for that
CEO - Art of War |
Double TaP
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Posted - 2006.04.26 00:12:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kunming
Domi
QFT and I fly ravens occasionally. So many nosf...
Quote Me! |
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